Muslims and terrorists

[magogian]

Isn't molestation a form of violence?

Don't be daft. If you are going to go that route, then let's talk about forced marriages that are rampant throughout Islamic societies. Nothing more than molestation.

My point was we are talking about terrorism in the name of religion, not any number of other problems with religion. It is quite clear that is the point of its thread--its the stinkin title!

 

[IrishJayhawk]

To circle back to the OP.... the discussion was supposed to be about:

"how Islam has become synonymous with terrorism this past decade."

Frankly, nothing about the middle ages, inquisition, drone attacks, etc. have ANYTHING to do with how the public perceives Islam or why it has 'become synonymous with terrorism.' I really think I answered it in my OP... the reason the American public draws that conclusion is obvious. For the past decade or so, every single major act of terrorism committed indiscriminately against the general American civilian public by a religious group/fanatic/zealot has been done by a MUSLIM person.

This isn't debatable. There are no Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. fanatics who have attempted/succeeded in multiple act of indiscriminate mass murder of American civilians.

It also isn't debatable that the only religious group with organized terrorist cells who aim to regularly attack the general American public do it in the name of Islam.

It also isn't debatable that 99.9%+ of Muslims are not terrorist.

But it's frankly a really stupid question/discussion to have on "why" Islam = terrorism to the general American public. The answer is obvious. The minute Westboro Baptist Church starts blowing up buildings or committing mass murder "Baptists" would also get associated with terrorism. It doesn't matter if it is "wrong" or "ignorant" or even if you think Muslims are "justified"... it is what it is and it won't change except through time... time in which American civilians aren't targeted for mass murder by people who claim to be doing so in the name of Islam.

This is all pretty true. And how wonderful that we don't have to fall prey to the "all Muslims are terrorists" mindset. I think you and Lou are basically agreeing.

 

[irishpat183]

To circle back to the OP.... the discussion was supposed to be about:

"how Islam has become synonymous with terrorism this past decade."

Frankly, nothing about the middle ages, inquisition, drone attacks, etc. have ANYTHING to do with how the public perceives Islam or why it has 'become synonymous with terrorism.' I really think I answered it in my OP... the reason the American public draws that conclusion is obvious. For the past decade or so, every single major act of terrorism committed indiscriminately against the general American civilian public by a religious group/fanatic/zealot has been done by a MUSLIM person.

This isn't debatable. There are no Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. fanatics who have attempted/succeeded in multiple act of indiscriminate mass murder of American civilians.

It also isn't debatable that the only religious group with organized terrorist cells who aim to regularly attack the general American public do it in the name of Islam.

It also isn't debatable that 99.9%+ of Muslims are not terrorist.

But it's frankly a really stupid question/discussion to have on "why" Islam = terrorism to the general American public. The answer is obvious. The minute Westboro Baptist Church starts blowing up buildings or committing mass murder "Baptists" would also get associated with terrorism. It doesn't matter if it is "wrong" or "ignorant" or even if you think Muslims are "justified"... it is what it is and it won't change except through time... time in which American civilians aren't targeted for mass murder by people who claim to be doing so in the name of Islam.

Great post!!

 

[magogian]

Now that this threat has turned into a love fest.

Let's talk about Muslim support for terrorism. It is true that the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists. But what about the significant minority that support terrorism?

Thankfully, American Muslims are quite moderate. But European Muslims support terrorism and the imposition of Sharia in startling numbers. And that isn't even discussing attitudes in the Middle East and elsewhere.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Now that this threat has turned into a love fest.

Let's talk about Muslim support for terrorism. It is true that the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists. But what about the significant minority that support terrorism?

The tiny minority who support terrorism are bad people.

 

[magogian]

The tiny minority who support terrorism are bad people.

Assuming this is accurate, "An average of 30% of respondents in Indonesia, Egypt, Pakistan and Morocco held positive views of groups that launch attacks against Americans, while similar numbers held a negative view or a neutral view."

Calling that a "tiny minority" is not comforting.

Muslim attitudes towards terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[illmatic630]

President Bush: "God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq"

Religion is used in terrorism all the time as an excuse,but i refuse to believe a religion is the reason for terrorism. They are nutcases.

There are terrorists of all colors and religions, including our own government killing thousands of civilians since the beginning of our war on terrorrism and war in iraq. columbine was an act of terror, so was sandy hook, so was oklahoma, and so was auburn.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

Lol, what does that have to have do with it? We are talking about violence.

Day late and a buck short. It was in response to a claim that "Christianity has fixed its issues."

 

[In Lou I Trust]

To circle back to the OP.... the discussion was supposed to be about:

"how Islam has become synonymous with terrorism this past decade."

Frankly, nothing about the middle ages, inquisition, drone attacks, etc. have ANYTHING to do with how the public perceives Islam or why it has 'become synonymous with terrorism.' I really think I answered it in my OP... the reason the American public draws that conclusion is obvious. For the past decade or so, every single major act of terrorism committed indiscriminately against the general American civilian public by a religious group/fanatic/zealot has been done by a MUSLIM person.

This isn't debatable. There are no Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. fanatics who have attempted/succeeded in multiple act of indiscriminate mass murder of American civilians.

It also isn't debatable that the only religious group with organized terrorist cells who aim to regularly attack the general American public do it in the name of Islam.

It also isn't debatable that 99.9%+ of Muslims are not terrorist.

But it's frankly a really stupid question/discussion to have on "why" Islam = terrorism to the general American public. The answer is obvious. The minute Westboro Baptist Church starts blowing up buildings or committing mass murder "Baptists" would also get associated with terrorism. It doesn't matter if it is "wrong" or "ignorant" or even if you think Muslims are "justified"... it is what it is and it won't change except through time... time in which American civilians aren't targeted for mass murder by people who claim to be doing so in the name of Islam.

I'm not disagreeing with this really. I never asked the question as to WHY the two have become synonymous but only wanted to point out that it's not Islam that's bad, but radical Muslims.

 

[magogian]

Day late and a buck short. It was in response to a claim that "Christianity has fixed its issues."

Lordie, we were obviously talking about terrorism/war issues.

But because I need to spell it out for you: If you include every possible issue a religion could have, then no, Christianity has not fixed all its issues.

 

[magogian]

but only wanted to point out that it's not Islam that's bad, but radical Muslims.

So, the next question becomes why are there so many more radical Muslims willing to commit terrorism?

Are there parts of their religious texts that make it relatively easier to justify terrorism? Is it something about their historical tradition? Is it that many Muslims live in countries with repressive political systems and their leaders cynically use Islam and terrorism as a means to direct outward their populace's dissatisfaction that otherwise would be more appropriately directed at them?

 

[nsideirish]

So, the next question becomes why are there so many more radical Muslims willing to commit terrorism?

Are there parts of their religious texts that make it relatively easier to justify terrorism? Is it something about their historical tradition? Is it that many Muslims live in countries with repressive political systems and their leaders cynically use Islam and terrorism as a means to direct outward their populace's dissatisfaction that otherwise would be more appropriately directed at them?

In my opinion, it is none of the above. I think it mostly has to do with what the CIA refers to as "blowback".

 

[magogian]

In my opinion, it is none of the above. I think it mostly has to do with what the CIA refers to as "blowback".

I was waiting for that one. You did not disappoint.

 

[GowerND11]

This violence, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is more about politics than religion. These terrorists use religion as a rallying cry for new support and to "justify" their point, but it all goes back to imperialism and their want to stop the west from imposing it's "fist" on their politics, people, economies, societies, etc.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Your arguments are moot. I learned everything needed to know about religion in an episode of the Simpsons:

 

[IrishJayhawk]

In my opinion, it is none of the above. I think it mostly has to do with what the CIA refers to as "blowback".

There's a lot to that.

 

[magogian]

This violence, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is more about politics than religion. These terrorists use religion as a rallying cry for new support and to "justify" their point, but it all goes back to imperialism and their want to stop the west from imposing it's "fist" on their politics, people, economies, societies, etc.

Ok Mr. Orientialism. Except, of course, many of these countries/areas were ruled for the vast majority of the time by the Ottoman empire, briefly by the Allies and British, and then mostly had self-rule. Post ww2, a common element was autocratic rule and the autocrat's use of religion to direct the passions of their oppressed subjects outward.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

This has gotten hilarious. I started this in hopes of having an adult conversation about the misguided blanket statements about Islam/Muslims that I have been seeing all over lately. Christianity was brought into the discussion so I responded in kind. Now it's become some kind of bash Lou, the Jesus hating, Muslim terrorist lover. I'm not defending terrorists nor am I cursing Christians but somehow my words have been twisted to make it seem as such. Some people are unbelievable.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

This has gotten hilarious. I started this in hopes of having an adult conversation about the misguided blanket statements about Islam/Muslims that I have been seeing all over lately. Christianity was brought into the discussion so I responded in kind. Now it's become some kind of bash Lou, the Jesus hating, Muslim terrorist lover. I'm not defending terrorists nor am I cursing Christians but somehow my words have been twisted to make it seem as such. Some people are unbelievable.

I find it unbelievable you really thought this thread had any possible chance of being productive, insightful, and civil. I'm not bashing you for starting it, but you have to realize any discussion that involves politics or religion never ends well, especially on the freaking Internet.

 

[ND NYC]

i knew this thread would get tricky.
i for one appreciate the exchange of ideas on all sides here.
It is better to debate things without settling them than to settle things without debating them.
Emotional topic(s). but maybe we all can learn some things from eahc othere in here.

 

[IrishLax]

I'm not disagreeing with this really. I never asked the question as to WHY the two have become synonymous but only wanted to point out that it's not Islam that's bad, but radical Muslims.

That's a fair point, I guess I implied the "why" aspect.

As far as I'm aware, the only thing you and probably disagree on is the "non-violent" thing. I'm not an expert on Islam, but I did take one college level course on Islam and a couple comparative World Religions classes. One of my main takeaways was that Muhammad's life story seems to contradict quite a bit of what was espoused by the religion. To be fair, the main characters of Judaism (i.e. the Old Testament featured persons) also often feature warriors/warlords... so it's not like it's unique to Islam. But none of them are quite as central or revered as Muhammad is to Islam. When you contrast him with central figures like Jesus and the Buddha it's a very stark difference. Whereas people can ask the cliche "What Would Jesus Do?" and probably come up with a 'caring' answer... asking "What Would Muhammad Do?" could lead you in a number of different directions, some of which could contradict other Muslim teachings or be violent.

My other takeaway was that the militant nature of a minority of "Muslim" fanatics right now has practically nothing at all to do with the religion itself. Most of the other world religions have basically "aged out" of being militant but at some point in their history were quite militant and engaged in "terrorism". I think political figures in the Middle East as an age old tool to consolidate power paint "others" as the enemy and at the same time military campaigns, etc. in the region validate those teachings... so inevitably, some people (typically young males looking for a sense of purpose) end up crossing the line to 'do something about it'. Then when someone does commit a terrorist act, it reinforces beliefs held by the Western public... and it's a vicious cycle that I'm not sure how you break.

 

[Redbar]

So, the next question becomes why are there so many more radical Muslims willing to commit terrorism?

Are there parts of their religious texts that make it relatively easier to justify terrorism? Is it something about their historical tradition? Is it that many Muslims live in countries with repressive political systems and their leaders cynically use Islam and terrorism as a means to direct outward their populace's dissatisfaction that otherwise would be more appropriately directed at them?

Because they are very proud people and they do not want to accept the position in the world that the west has relegated them to. They do not buy that they are inferior to the west. That they should not have access to certain science. They don't think they should be starving while others are fat and kept in check by fascists propped up by the west. Their resources controlled, their culture interfered with. They don't think modern culture is necessarily an improvement. They are not buying the story that prosperity is for Europe and America and those that get in line with them and ultimately play by their rules.

I am certainly not condoning any violent thing they do, but I am not going to tell myself dogs are crazy, violent, animals and hate my dog for biting me when I kick him every chance I get. I think it is naive at best, disingenuous, more accurately to act like we can't understand why they might be pissed off.

You don't become a superpower in this world without getting your hands a little dirty. Not everyone is as anxious to forget as we are.

 

[MNIrishman]

Redbar: Islamic states can have prosperity when they stop marginalizing women so heavily (cutting out a huge fraction of the work force), join the 21st century (who the hell executes gay people for being gay in this day and age?), and make education for all a priority. There are several reasons why Israel is the most technologically advanced state in the region. The lack of Islamic oppression is a big one.

 

[Bluto]

I think this conversation needs to refocus of "fundemetalism" and what that means as opposed to any one religion or ethnic group. Believing that your belief system is "the one truth" seems to be at the root of most of these acts. That and extreme desperation. In terms of modern day terrorists (20th and 21st century) I would put the IRA, Zionists and the Ku Klux Klan right near the top of that list. In fact the Klan is by far the largest terrorist organization this country has ever dealt with and has in all likelyhood been responsible for killing more Americans that Al Qaeda. With that in mind and along with Oklahoma City and all the crazy mass shootings committed by gun totin white guys why aren't we talking about white males as being the biggest domestic terrorist threat?

 

[Redbar]

Redbar: Islamic states can have prosperity when they stop marginalizing women so heavily (cutting out a huge fraction of the work force), join the 21st century (who the hell executes gay people for being gay in this day and age?), and make education for all a priority. There are several reasons why Israel is the most technologically advanced state in the region. The lack of Islamic oppression is a big one.

I did not realize there was a labor shortage in the middle east, and yeah I know they can have prosperity when they agree to behave more like the colonialists.

Who executes gays in this day and age? Well there is a candidate in Nigeria that would like to. He is very close to, been the guest of honor to, hosted, and received money from some evangelical congressmen that live in a house on C street.

You are right there are several reasons why Israel is the most advanced country in the region, the most important one being that they are largely European and Asian people who were given that tract of land and emigrated into what had been a third world region. They are supported in every way by the west because they are really from the west.

 

[AvesEvo]

I did not realize there was a labor shortage in the middle east, and yeah I know they can have prosperity when they agree to behave more like the colonialists.

Who executes gays in this day and age? Well there is a candidate in Nigeria that would like to. He is very close to, been the guest of honor to, hosted, and received money from some evangelical congressmen that live in a house on C street.

You are right there are several reasons why Israel is the most advanced country in the region, the most important one being that they are largely European and Asian people who were given that tract of land and emigrated into what had been a third world region. They are supported in every way by the west because they are really from the west.

This. Except that I would add that the reason they are so successful is that they are the united states presence in the middle east.

 

[Redbar]

[/B]

This. Except that I would add that the reason they are so successful is that they are the united states presence in the middle east.

I erased that they were agents of the west only because I am not sure that we aren't, in fact, agents of theirs.

 

[Grahambo]

I erased that they were agents of the west only because I am not sure that we aren't, in fact, agents of theirs.

Agents West - Leaders in Electrical Products

 

[50milesSE ND]

All I can say on the topic is that I'm sick and tired of Christians being attacked, and everyone being to worried about offending muslims. DON'T GET IT. Oh maybe I do get it because Christians are the majority in the US so that now makes them racist. There is only one one God.....

 

[irish1958]

Redbar
They had over one thousand years to make something of themselves and didn't do it in spite of absolute control and hundreds of years of oil reserves. The inept interference of the West (mainly the British) in the few years between the end of WWI and the end of WWII is not the cause of their troubles.
Even now, when given the choice, they appear to want to return to the seventh century.