Muslims and terrorists

irishpat183

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Lax nailed it. Public perception is what it is because of what Muslims have done. Not because one day we just started hating Muslims.

No, not all of them are bad. Of course not. But can you blame people?
 

irishpat183

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Are you kidding me? Dont your remeber the bill in Uganda about killing gay people (they can already be imprisoned for 14 years) and it was being pushed by evangelical americans. Yep. I will add that the Muslim countries are even worse to the LGBT>

And women...
 

irishpat183

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They would view all of our drone attacks, invasion of Iraq and Afganistan, and many other acts as terrorism on our part. Just saying.

Of course, this is after they flew planes into buildings full of innocent people....but hey! Old news, right?
 

pkt77242

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Of course, this is after they flew planes into buildings full of innocent people....but hey! Old news, right?

Um, actually their hatred of us started with our screwing around in their countries (look at the UK and US in Iran, Egypt, etc. The flying planes into our buildings was because of the decades of us screwing around in their countries. You might actually want to go read up on history a little more.
 

In Lou I Trust

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Christianity is based on the new testament, while their are some old testament elements. I have many saudi friends who are Islam and they are good people and many Muslims are, but they do have radical elements built into their theology.

So you're picking and choosing parts of the Bible?

Lax nailed it. Public perception is what it is because of what Muslims have done. Not because one day we just started hating Muslims.

No, not all of them are bad. Of course not. But can you blame people?

I agree... which is why I started this thread - to educate the ignorant. Muslim extremists have created a poor image for Islam as a whole.
 

pkt77242

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Lax nailed it. Public perception is what it is because of what Muslims have done. Not because one day we just started hating Muslims.

No, not all of them are bad. Of course not. But can you blame people?

Oddly I do agree with this though. Of course, I can also see why they think we are all country invaders who like to screw around in everyone elses business. We don't exactly have a great track record in the middle east.
 

GowerND11

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It goes back to imperialism. We, the west, drew lines on maps without any regard to how they may affect the peoples of the region. We grouped ethnicities together that for hundreds of years hated each other all in the name of "Westernizing them." Then when we got out, there were struggles for power. Sometimes those who won power were the groups we didn't want in power. So what does the west do? Why intervene of course. I would be ticked off too.

This does not take away from the fact that what terrorists have done is horribly wrong, but it is a way to understand why. It is more politically motivated than religiously. Using religion as a rallying cry, however, can have a much better impact for recruiting.
 

irishpat183

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Oddly I do agree with this though. Of course, I can also see why they think we are all country invaders who like to screw around in everyone elses business. We don't exactly have a great track record in the middle east.

And I'll agree with you there. I've never been a fan of being world police.

However, while there are civilian casualties, US soldiers don't seek out to harm innocents. Where as the Muslim extremist do. That's the big difference. Therefore, the public is THAT much more afraid. And, to be honest, rightfully so.

If this was limited to soldier on soldier combat, you wouldn't have this mindset of the American people.

Like I said...I don't blame people
 

nsideirish

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And I'll agree with you there. I've never been a fan of being world police.

However, while there are civilian casualties, US soldiers don't seek out to harm innocents. Where as the Muslim extremist do. That's the big difference. Therefore, the public is THAT much more afraid. And, to be honest, rightfully so.

If this was limited to soldier on soldier combat, you wouldn't have this mindset of the American people.

Like I said...I don't blame people

While this is true, in their defense, it can be kind of difficult engaging in soldier on soldier combat with the most powerful military in the world when all you have are some IEDs, some AKs and a strong belief in your cause.
 

phillyirish

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In Lou I Trust

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NDinMich

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Just curious why we're criticizing the media (or public) vilification of Islam but in the same breath, vilifying Christianity?
 

In Lou I Trust

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Just curious why we're criticizing the media (or public) vilification of Islam but in the same breath, vilifying Christianity?

My intention is not to vilify Christianity but only to point out the hypocrisy of calling Islam a religion of violence while ignoring the violent words found in our own Bible.
 

AvesEvo

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1. Muhammad was a warlord... this is a fact. This is not debatable. When the top guy in your religion basically gained his power due to war/killing his enemies... and that's the guy you're supposed to emulate... it's intellectually dishonest to say that Islam is not a "violent" religion. Compare and contrast this to Jesus who was the epitome of non-violence or the Buddha. It's a completely different paragon.

2. Almost every major terrorist attack in the United States in recent memory (10-15 years) was performed by a Muslim and they did it for reasons linking back to their religion... this is why public perception is the way it is. If you had Jews blowing up stuff and saying "I did this for Yahweh", etc. you wouldn't have this perception.

When you look at people who aren't Muslim that have committed terrorist acts in this country... example, Timothy McVeigh, who was raised Roman Catholic I think... I can't think of a single time where they cite "religion" as their reason for the act. It's always another motive. At least I can't think of an example in the past 10-15 years of someone who has blown something up "for Jesus."

Except for Anders Breivik who was fearful of Islam encroaching on Christian society.
 

NDinMich

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My intention is not to vilify Christianity but only to point out the hypocrisy of calling Islam a religion of violence while ignoring the violent words found in our own Bible.

Understood and I appreciate your candor. I think care needs to be taken not to fall into the trap of placing labels on both Muslims and Christians. Just as all Muslims aren't hijacking planes or bombing Americans, all Christians aren't bombing abortion clinics or stoning homosexuals.
 

IrishJayhawk

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What's great about reason is that we can separate visceral reactions from painting a group with a broad brush.

I don't have any problem with someone saying, "I wonder if this was something to do with extremist Muslims." When that turns into, "Well, we know that Muslims are violent...," I think we've derailed.
 

AvesEvo

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Two issues here for most of us. First, as IrishLax pointed out, almost every terrorist act committed here in the US and worldwide for the past several years was committed by a Muslim in the name of his religion. It's hard not to associate the religion with such acts.

This depends on how you define terrorism. The 24/7 buzzing of drones, not knowing when/if they will strike, sounds like terrorism to me.
 

NDinMich

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What's great about reason is that we can separate visceral reactions from painting a group with a broad brush.

I don't have any problem with someone saying, "I wonder if this was something to do with extremist Muslims." When that turns into, "Well, we know that Muslims are violent...," I think we've derailed.

Bingo.
 

In Lou I Trust

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What's great about reason is that we can separate visceral reactions from painting a group with a broad brush.

I don't have any problem with someone saying, "I wonder if this was something to do with extremist Muslims." When that turns into, "Well, we know that Muslims are violent...," I think we've derailed.

I agree. Bombings and extremist Muslims seem to go hand in hand today. My only issue is when people say or believe that it's a "Muslim/Islam" thing and not an extremist faction.
 

MNIrishman

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If one is careful to distinguish between people and ideas (Muslims vs. Islam), I think there's an awful lot that you can objectively criticize about the tenets of Islam, without comparing it to other religions or delving into racism (Islam is a set of ideas, not a race).

Muhammad was a murderer, a warlord, and a pedophile. [Muhammad said] “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah. Do not be deceitful with the spoils; do not be treacherous, nor mutilate nor kill children.” (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992). He consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only 9 years old! Though he was clearly a charismatic and great leader, I must question his position as role model.

Islam also does very little to prohibit murder. The only passage I have heard to this effect is Quran 5:32, which states: "“If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people." This is, of course, ambiguous at best and conflicts with other passages of the book, such as Quran 8:60 "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know."

There are many other passages in the Quran which are relevant, but in the interest of brevity, I'll omit them here.

Even the practical history of Islam is littered with violence (I am aware that Christianity has a great deal of horrible events in its history. In keeping with my thesis of examining Islam independent of other religions, I will ignore Christianity). Mecca and Medina were functionally conquered at the point of a sword. This was the pattern of Islamic expansion until the Moorish armies were turned back by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732.

Islam even includes a sharply detailed philosophy of conquest, including developing the concepts of Dhimmis (conquered infidels under Islamic rule) and the Jizya (a tax paid by conquered infidels to the Islamic overlords...that is, unless the conquered wish to become Muslim). Concepts such as these helped make Islamic expansion one of the more successful sustained military campaigns of the last two thousand years. Combine this with the fact that Islam prescribes the death penalty for apostasy (converting away from Islam), and it's no wonder that most countries with Islamic majorities have almost no protected religious minorities.

In the modern age, one can anecdotally see that Islam conflicts with its neighbors everywhere it has neighbors. In western China, the Uyghurs are a constant thorn in the side of the Han majority, with violent riots in 2009 causing the internet in the country to shut down briefly. In Egypt, the Coptic Christians are more and more frequently being violently attacked. Pakistan has executed many people under ethically reprehensible laws regarding blasphemy. These kinds of conflicts are rare between other religions. Buddhists committing suicide bombings against Christians? Hindu blasphemy laws carrying the death penalty in India? Adherents of Shinto declaring a fatwa of violence against Daoists? These things are unheard of.

Until Islam opens itself up to correction, until the bad parts of Mohammed's character are openly reviled, until the Jizya and Dhimmis are but embarrassing relics of a forgotten past, until apostasy does not carry the death penalty in Saudi Arabia, until there is no country where you can be killed for preaching the modern relevance of Buddha or the Tao Te Ching, Islam cannot command my respect. Muslims have my respect by virtue of our common humanity, and I would never advocate violence, oppression, or discrimination against them. However, I stand philosophically opposed to Islam.
 

ACamp1900

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Pointing to Old Testament law or ideas as a way of proving some 'hypocrisy' of Christains proves a terrible lack of understanding what Christianity even is... When coming from the person who created the thread on misrepresenting Muslims, (which I agreed with for the most part, though I also agree with Laxs first post) thats just flat out sad.
 

ACamp1900

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Perhaps modern Christianity doesn't, but many believe that portions of the Bible do.

Those people have no right to complain about anyone being mis-characterized then IMO if they use those feelings, interpretations to paint Christians... Flat ignorant... Though we can get all Anti Semitic if that's where you want to go?


Let me be clear, Mosaic Law has NOTHING to do with Christianity other providing a perspective...
 
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In Lou I Trust

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Pointing to Old Testament law or ideas as a way of proving some 'hypocrisy' of Christains proves a terrible lack of understanding what Christianity even is... When coming from the person who created the thread on misrepresenting Muslims, (which I agreed with for the most part, though I also agree with Laxs first post) thats just flat out sad.

Please elaborate. I made a generic comparison... what's the issue?
 

pkt77242

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Pointing to Old Testament law or ideas as a way of proving some 'hypocrisy' of Christains proves a terrible lack of understanding what Christianity even is... When coming from the person who created the thread on misrepresenting Muslims, (which I agreed with for the most part, though I also agree with Laxs first post) thats just flat out sad.

While I agree that the Old Testament is not the heart of Christianity, every time that I go to church, shockingly they have at least one reading from it. I will say that just as we take parts of the Quran out of context, it is just as easy to take parts of the Old Testament out of context.
 

pkt77242

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If one is careful to distinguish between people and ideas (Muslims vs. Islam), I think there's an awful lot that you can objectively criticize about the tenets of Islam, without comparing it to other religions or delving into racism (Islam is a set of ideas, not a race).

Muhammad was a murderer, a warlord, and a pedophile. [Muhammad said] “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah. Do not be deceitful with the spoils; do not be treacherous, nor mutilate nor kill children.” (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992). He consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only 9 years old! Though he was clearly a charismatic and great leader, I must question his position as role model.

Islam also does very little to prohibit murder. The only passage I have heard to this effect is Quran 5:32, which states: "“If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people." This is, of course, ambiguous at best and conflicts with other passages of the book, such as Quran 8:60 "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know."

There are many other passages in the Quran which are relevant, but in the interest of brevity, I'll omit them here.

Even the practical history of Islam is littered with violence (I am aware that Christianity has a great deal of horrible events in its history. In keeping with my thesis of examining Islam independent of other religions, I will ignore Christianity). Mecca and Medina were functionally conquered at the point of a sword. This was the pattern of Islamic expansion until the Moorish armies were turned back by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732.

Islam even includes a sharply detailed philosophy of conquest, including developing the concepts of Dhimmis (conquered infidels under Islamic rule) and the Jizya (a tax paid by conquered infidels to the Islamic overlords...that is, unless the conquered wish to become Muslim). Concepts such as these helped make Islamic expansion one of the more successful sustained military campaigns of the last two thousand years. Combine this with the fact that Islam prescribes the death penalty for apostasy (converting away from Islam), and it's no wonder that most countries with Islamic majorities have almost no protected religious minorities.

In the modern age, one can anecdotally see that Islam conflicts with its neighbors everywhere it has neighbors. In western China, the Uyghurs are a constant thorn in the side of the Han majority, with violent riots in 2009 causing the internet in the country to shut down briefly. In Egypt, the Coptic Christians are more and more frequently being violently attacked. Pakistan has executed many people under ethically reprehensible laws regarding blasphemy. These kinds of conflicts are rare between other religions. Buddhists committing suicide bombings against Christians? Hindu blasphemy laws carrying the death penalty in India? Adherents of Shinto declaring a fatwa of violence against Daoists? These things are unheard of.

Until Islam opens itself up to correction, until the bad parts of Mohammed's character are openly reviled, until the Jizya and Dhimmis are but embarrassing relics of a forgotten past, until apostasy does not carry the death penalty in Saudi Arabia, until there is no country where you can be killed for preaching the modern relevance of Buddha or the Tao Te Ching, Islam cannot command my respect. Muslims have my respect by virtue of our common humanity, and I would never advocate violence, oppression, or discrimination against them. However, I stand philosophically opposed to Islam.

According to the modern definition of pedophile then yes he was, but for that time period that is by no means crazy weird. Many arranged marriages were done when the girls were young (think 10-13) during that time period. I am by no means a fan of Islam, but I will say that the Quran is similar to the Old Testament in that the writers were stuck in their time period and the central figures of them could not rise above their time period. Their actions and teachings were pertinent to their people in that time and place, but they don't always translate to a thousand to two thousand years later.
 

ACamp1900

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While I agree that the Old Testament is not the heart of Christianity, every time that I go to church, shockingly they have at least one reading from it. I will say that just as we take parts of the Quran out of context, it is just as easy to take parts of the Old Testament out of context.

Agreed with the second sentence... But again, mosaic law is a Hebrew thing.
 
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