Oversigning Recruits

[Ironman8]

@Nuff_ced70

Jake Matthews is ..... Staying #GigEm

Another scholly accounted for.

 

[NDinMich]

@Nuff_ced70

Another scholly accounted for.

You've got to be kidding me.

 

[RubberSoul]

It seems to me that the sec is the only conference to treat. a scholly like what it actually is....a one year contract. The rest of the country had better follow suit or continue to get trounced on the football field.

 

[PraetorianND]

It seems to me that the sec is the only conference to treat. a scholly like what it actually is....a one year contract. The rest of the country had better follow suit or continue to get trounced on the football field.

It's unethical, so no.

 

[irishtrain]

great read!!! the comments by bama fans defending slick nicky are great!!!

Oversigning is the tip of the iceberg. Are'nt thost Alabama fans precious.

 

[DSully1995]

ND fans and LSU fans are like mirror images. Both do nothing after a loss but search for excuses.

And all the while BAMA just keeps getting better!

not really, we accepted we got our asses kicked, ignore bad calls, and congratulate bama, I think our reaction wasnt bad, and well see your fanbases once you guys lose....

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CSvQ0ccplow" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[chicago51]

[/QUOTE=Silverback]ND fans and LSU fans are like mirror images. Both do nothing after a loss but search for excuses.

And all the while BAMA just keeps getting better![/QUOTE]

Look who's talking

 

[jason_h537]

So is over-signing the current excuse to justify why Notre Dame lost to a better team? I get so sick of hearing this. if it's not admissions, it's academics, or "not enough thugs". Yes over-signing is an advantage ND doesn't have but that shouldn't prevent them from being more competitive. USC wasn't over-signing during Pete Carrol's run.

This is Kelly in year 3. He is learning and the team is still growing. Even Bama was embarrassed by Utah in Saban's first BCS bowl. Will ND ever have all the advantages that Bama or USC have? No, but that doesn't mean they can't close the gap. All these excuses were used to justify why ND wouldn't be relevant again and that has been proven false.

 

[NDhoosier]

So is over-signing the current excuse to justify why Notre Dame lost to a better team? I get so sick of hearing this.

And I am sick of people acting like its not an advantage or no-big-deal. So pipe down, life sucks, stop defending blatant cheating by a conference.

 

[jason_h537]

So pipe down, life sucks.

Perhaps take your own advice here. Read my whole post, I am not defending anyone or anything other than ND. I can take things out of context as well.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Please provide an NCAA rule cite for your opinion above. It doesn't agree with the current NCAA Rules on Counters.

Hmmm, I read your entire post of the relevant NCAA rules, and couldn't find anything in them that contradicted what I'd said. An early entrant who starts attending classes on scholarship in January is counted towards your following recruiting class if you have no scholarships remaining to give from the previous year. In other words, he doesn't have to count against the previous year's class.

Bama has 9 new recruits who completed HS early and are starting classes at UA on athletic scholarships this week. We have no scholarships from last year's class to give, as we used all 25. Therefore, they count towards our upcoming class we'll sign in a few weeks.

Bottom line, you don't have to have scholarships remaining from the previous year in order for new recruits to enroll early, as long as they enroll in the 2nd or 3rd term of an academic year. They're just new recruits, counted against your upcoming recruiting class, who started classes in January or in the spring instead of waiting until the following autumn like most new recruits.

 

[ROLLtide]

Butthurt fans are still complaining about this?
Geez, the NCAA rulebook is thick and if Saban and Alabama are breaking rules they would get a letter from the NCAA.

Fact is, Saban is great at handling the scholarship situation, theres always a few guys going pro and a few transfers to deal with, it opens the door for more players to come in.

 

[clashmore_jon]

Butthurt fans are still complaining about this?
Geez, the NCAA rulebook is thick and if Saban and Alabama are breaking rules they would get a letter from the NCAA.

Fact is, Saban is great at handling the scholarship situation, theres always a few guys going pro and few transfers to deal with, it opens the door for more players to come in.

i reserve my right to be butthurt lol. Even if it's not against the rules (i think probably it's a grey area and best, or maybe just hard to track/enforce), it jsut seems like a ****** thing to do. I know life isnt all roses and everything, but the way i've seen oversigning presented is that it really can be a setback for a young man's education.

 

[ROLLtide]

i reserve my right to be butthurt lol. Even if it's not against the rules (i think probably it's a grey area and best, or maybe just hard to track/enforce), it jsut seems like a ****** thing to do. I know life isnt all roses and everything, but the way i've seen oversigning presented is that it really can be a setback for a young man's education.

I guess it's all in how you look at it.
If 3 players go early to the NFL, and then 3 more decide the depth chart is to stacked and transfer to a smaller school so they can play.
It opens an opportunity for someone else to get a education at a nice university and be a apart of a great football program.

Saban has been good at anticipating this and working the system to his advantage.

 

[clashmore_jon]

I guess it's all in how you look at it.
If 3 players go early to the NFL, and then 3 more decide the depth chart is to stacked and transfer to a smaller school so they can play.
It opens an opportunity for someone else to get a education at a nice university and be a apart of a great football program.

Saban has been good at anticipating this and working the system to his advantage.

i can see that side of the coin but i feel like more often it's probably a promise to a kid that they're going to play D1 and then get shafted into going juco. especially with guys like Mr. Kiffin running programs. I'm honestly not that familiar with Saban (outside of the obvious ability to beat the **** out of everyone) so i'm not trying to say that he's a lying conniving piece of rulebreaking sh!t by comparing him to Kiffin. Just that the oversigning approach could be easily abused.

 

[IrishLax]

I guess it's all in how you look at it.
If 3 players go early to the NFL, and then 3 more decide the depth chart is to stacked and transfer to a smaller school so they can play.
It opens an opportunity for someone else to get a education at a nice university and be a apart of a great football program.

Saban has been good at anticipating this and working the system to his advantage.

I think people only take issue with the liberal use of "medical hardship" and the straight up "scholarship not renewed."

No question everything is by the books, but it's why Alabama is such an unstoppable force with incredible depth. Because the cupboard is stocked with a full class every year. It's awesome. ND doesn't do that.

For example, Notre Dame last year passed on a bunch of kids early because we were worried about "running out of spots" but then we had last minute defections and then a transfer and we ended up playing this year with something like maybe ~80 scholarship players of which only maybe ~70 were healthy/active. We also now have only 1 ILB recruit in the past two years... which will probably eff us over. It's a bad boat to be in when one injury or one defection can derail your program.

 

[ROLLtide]

I think people only take issue with the liberal use of "medical hardship" and the straight up "scholarship not renewed."

No question everything is by the books, but it's why Alabama is such an unstoppable force with incredible depth. Because the cupboard is stocked with a full class every year. It's awesome. ND doesn't do that.

For example, Notre Dame last year passed on a bunch of kids early because we were worried about "running out of spots" but then we had last minute defections and then a transfer and we ended up playing this year with something like maybe ~80 scholarship players of which only maybe ~70 were healthy/active. We also now have only 1 ILB recruit in the past two years... which will probably eff us over. It's a bad boat to be in when one injury or one defection can derail your program.

Well, to me attrition is going to happen, it's better to be prepared for it than sit around and have depth issues.
Fact is a lot of players can't cut it at Alabama and transfer, others go pro early, some get hurt and can't contribute anymore, have to be ready for that, LSU is doing it, better be ready to play LSU with a full team are you might get run out of the stadium.

 

[clashmore_jon]

Well, to me attrition is going to happen, it's better to be prepared for it than sit around and have depth issues.
Fact is a lot of players can't cut it at Alabama and transfer, others go pro early, some get hurt and can't contribute anymore, have to be ready for that, LSU is doing it, better be ready to play LSU with a full team are you might get run out of the stadium.

we understand the logic, the approach, and the benefits...but we are taking the moral high ground on the issue. I'm sure you may have noticed ND fans/alumns/students tend to do this a lot. Just like with academic standards, football players living in dorms, etc. It is our identity (whether I like it or not) to unapologetically position ourselves among the moral elite and look down at the masses--even if that means we get run out of a big game. we can then look down our noses at, say 'bama, as inferior to us despite the outcome.

I'm sure nobody on IE will like my post here, but i wish ND was a little different, and would come to terms that college football is about money, not about amateur athletes just going out to have fun on top of their education. But, hey, that's who we are and that's what makes us so "special".

 

[Kak7304]

I think all this oversigning business is just a mistake because SEC teams legitimately do not know how to count.

 

[Ironman8]

Bama commit Bradely Bozeman talks official visit to Tuscaloosa

Bradley Bozeman is going to greyshirt at Alabama while rehabbing a knee injury instead of taking up scholarship offers at Auburn, Clemson and Ole Miss.

 

[Rack Em]

Bama commit Bradely Bozeman talks official visit to Tuscaloosa

Bradley Bozeman is going to greyshirt at Alabama while rehabbing a knee injury instead of taking up scholarship offers at Auburn, Clemson and Ole Miss.

How do parents remain so STUPID?!? In what universe does grayshirting sound like a good idea?

WHY DO THESE PEOPLE NOT RESEARCH THESE SEC COACHES????

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I wish I had the time to read through this thread. This topic has always fascinated me. There's such a broad spectrum between the NCAA rules and what's really going on in athletic offices at most universities.

I'm trying to be extremely open-minded and see both sides. The truth is, I can. It's easy to say, "This is a business. College football rakes in money for schools. The better the team, the more potential money. Have at it." One may also say, "Anything besides a guaranteed 4-year scholarship should be against college rules. There should be no cuts, no gray-shirts, etc. The limit, is the limit, period." Imo, it all comes down to what's ethical, what's right and what is wrong. The NCAA has had plenty of time to enforce the 85 limit rule, yet they do not. So why does everyone continue to bring it up? Where did the 85 limit rule come from anyways? Has it ever been suggested to push that limit to 100? I think the following should happen FOR ALL SCHOOLS: (none of this separate conference rules crap)

1) The total limit should be 105
2) The yearly limit should be 25
3) There will be 5 additional scholarships available for 5th year players who are eligible. If 5 are not eligible or these are not used, they may be used in the next cycle in the form of EEs.
4) Every scholarship is promised to the student-athlete for four years
5) There is no gray-shirting or cutting of players. A player may convert to academic or medical if appropriate, however.
6) Transfers, drop-outs, injuries will surely open up spots. Such spots may be filled with EEs.
7) These rules MUST BE ENFORCED BY THE NCAA


Please discuss. As I said, this topic interests me. I'm a bit ignorant to all of the rules/limits/etc. so feel free to correct me if some of these are impossible/unlikely. I'm open-minded about this subject. These are just a handful of ideas bouncing around in my head.

 

[Bishop2b5]

How do parents remain so STUPID?!? In what universe does grayshirting sound like a good idea?

WHY DO THESE PEOPLE NOT RESEARCH THESE SEC COACHES????

I'm not sure what your issue is with this kid grayshirting. He's clearly not being forced into it. He has scholarship offers from several other programs, yet would rather grayshirt at Bama. He knows that because of his knee injury, he would be very unlikely to play in the 2013 season, and would be a redshirt. By taking the greyshirt route, he gets an extra year to rehab his knee, mature physically and mentally before starting his college career, and will still have 5 years to use up his 4 years of eligibility. Sounds like the kid's being smart and thinking longterm.

 

[phgreek]

I'm not sure what your issue is with this kid grayshirting. He's clearly not being forced into it. He has scholarship offers from several other programs, yet would rather grayshirt at Bama. He knows that because of his knee injury, he would be very unlikely to play in the 2013 season, and would be a redshirt. By taking the greyshirt route, he gets an extra year to rehab his knee, mature physically and mentally before starting his college career, and will still have 5 years to use up his 4 years of eligibility. Sounds like the kid's being smart and thinking longterm.

all sounds good when you say it real fast...

What is the percentage of kids who "greyshirt" who lose their scholarship, or never actually get one. What is the percentage of kids who "greyshirt" that actually finish at a DI A program. How does all of that compare to kids who accept a scholarship on the normal timeline?

Yea...the kid decided...can you think of any other ridiculous decisions kids have made lately.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I wish I had the time to read through this thread. This topic has always fascinated me. There's such a broad spectrum between the NCAA rules and what's really going on in athletic offices at most universities.

I'm trying to be extremely open-minded and see both sides. The truth is, I can. It's easy to say, "This is a business. College football rakes in money for schools. The better the team, the more potential money. Have at it." One may also say, "Anything besides a guaranteed 4-year scholarship should be against college rules. There should be no cuts, no gray-shirts, etc. The limit, is the limit, period." Imo, it all comes down to what's ethical, what's right and what is wrong. The NCAA has had plenty of time to enforce the 85 limit rule, yet they do not. So why does everyone continue to bring it up? Where did the 85 limit rule come from anyways? Has it ever been suggested to push that limit to 100? I think the following should happen FOR ALL SCHOOLS: (none of this separate conference rules crap)

1) The total limit should be 105
2) The yearly limit should be 25
3) There will be 5 additional scholarships available for 5th year players who are eligible. If 5 are not eligible or these are not used, they may be used in the next cycle in the form of EEs.
4) Every scholarship is promised to the student-athlete for four years
5) There is no gray-shirting or cutting of players. A player may convert to academic or medical if appropriate, however.
6) Transfers, drop-outs, injuries will surely open up spots. Such spots may be filled with EEs.
7) These rules MUST BE ENFORCED BY THE NCAA


Please discuss. As I said, this topic interests me. I'm a bit ignorant to all of the rules/limits/etc. so feel free to correct me if some of these are impossible/unlikely. I'm open-minded about this subject. These are just a handful of ideas bouncing around in my head.

I like some of those ideas. I still think there's some misunderstanding about EE's. Why should an EE count against anything other than your upcoming class, which he's a part of? They aren't getting an extra year on scholarship or getting to play any more seasons than anyone else, and you aren't getting an extra player. They commit to your upcoming class, count against it, but enroll a few weeks beforehand. The only advantages are they get to participate in spring practice before their freshman year and are already acclimated to college life by the time their first season starts. These are kids who worked especially hard in HS in order to graduate early. Why would they have to count against the previous class? They weren't on campus for that season, let alone played during that season.

I don't know of (and can't imagine) any team exceeding the 85 limit. The NCAA already enforces it and there isn't a way to exceed it without getting in major NCAA trouble. The rule is that you can only have 85 players on scholarship at the start of the season or fall camp. I don't know of any way to exceed that 85 limit without the NCAA knowing and stopping you from doing it.

I like the idea of raising the total limit to 100 or 105, but keeping the new scholarships per year at 25. The point of it would be to take away any motive to cut under-performers to make room for new players. Few schools would ever bump up against the 100 limit, so there would be no need to cut players to make room.

I'm not sure about the 4 year guaranteed scholarship. I can see both sides of this one. On one hand, a kid who makes grades, follows the rules, and works hard should feel secure in knowing that even if he isn't an All American he's going to get his education paid for and be part of the team for 4 years. OTOH, this is the real world. None of us are guaranteed our jobs if we under-perform or if our employer can find someone better at it than we are. Academic schollies aren't guaranteed for 4 years. You get an academic scholly because you were a whiz kid in HS, but you make C's in college, they'll pull your scholarship. You have an obligation to perform at a certain level to keep it.

I don't have a problem with grayshirting in general. There are cases of it being used badly though. If you offer a kid and he accepts with the understanding that he'll be entering in the fall, but you find someone better and don't give the kid notice before NSD so that he can look at other programs, then you've screwed him. OTOH, if you're upfront with him and he still chooses to sign with you and grayshirt, nobody's been harmed. It's just a way for him to delay his enrollment a few months so that he can recover from an injury, mature, or not waste a year of eligibility until he's ready to play.

 

[Bishop2b5]

all sounds good when you say it real fast...

What is the percentage of kids who "greyshirt" who lose their scholarship, or never actually get one. What is the percentage of kids who "greyshirt" that actually finish at a DI A program. How does all of that compare to kids who accept a scholarship on the normal timeline?

Yea...the kid decided...can you think of any other ridiculous decisions kids have made lately.

I don't know of a single kid that's been grayshirted at Bama and then never got their scholarship. In fact, I don't know of a kid at ANY school that didn't. Doesn't mean it's never happened, but I've never heard of it. You do that one time and you've burned yourself forever with recruits. No staff could afford to do that. OTOH, I do know of several we've asked to grayshirt who went on to spend four years on scholarship. All grayshirting is, is delaying a recruit's enrollment by a semester. It lets him recover from an injury or mature before starting the clock on his 5 years to play 4. He's not going to play this upcoming season. Why have that count as a redshirt year when he can delay enrollment a few months and still have five years left to play 4?

This kid's known for months he was probably going to grayshirt. He had ample opportunity to explore other options with other programs. He received offers from several other large programs. He and his parents decided it was in his best interest to sit out a season and recover from his injury, and still have all his eligibility remaining.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

If every school was obligated to play the "4 year scholarship" card, things wouldn't get any better IMO. Scumbag coaches would still create reasons to "trim the fat."

The bottom line is these kids are making a conscious decision that is 100% rightfully theirs, and deserve the repurcussions associated with signing at a school that sees you as a number instead of a name.

 

[Bishop2b5]

If every school was obligated to play the "4 year scholarship" card, things wouldn't get any better IMO. Scumbag coaches would still create reasons to "trim the fat."

The bottom line is these kids are making a conscious decision that is 100% rightfully theirs, and deserve the repurcussions associated with signing at a school that sees you as a number instead of a name.

That's one way of seeing it. However, if you consistently underperform at your job and never live up to the potential your boss saw in you when he hired you, what happens? What if you're an NFL player and don't perform as well as the team hoped you would when they drafted you, what happens? If you were on an academic scholarship and only made C's, what would happen? No school guarantees you a four year education just because you got all A's in HS and earned an academic scholly as a college freshman. You have to keep doing your part and earning it every year of college or they'll give to someone who will. That scholarship is an investment of the school's time and money, and they have the right and an obligation to invest wisely. Why should an athletic scholarship be any different?

 

[PraetorianND]

1. College football is not a job.
2. How do you define underperforming? What if a kid just isn't as good as another? Should he get cut?
3. NFL rules allow for cutting players based on performance, college rules do not. What happens when a baseball player signs a huge contract and then "underperforms?"
4. If an academic scholarship has grade requirements then fine, college athletic scholarships do not have "ability minimums." If you're trying your hardest and getting C's and there is no grade minimum they should not be able to take your scholarship from you, it's a contract. Hell, if you get an academic scholarship with no grade minimums and don't try at all and get C's they shouldn't be allowed to take it from you then either because you are fulfilling your end of the bargain.

Despite your obvious rational perception on life and capitalism, these scholarships are supposed to be 4 year guarantees so none of what you said applies. Schools are not allowed to pull athletic scholarships for "under performing" because it violates the contract. Coaches like Nick Saban invent reasons to take scholarships from players which is not only unethical but against conference and NCAA rules.

The point of these scholarships is to get these kids through school. It takes 4 years (ish) to get through school, hence the length of the scholarship. Taking it away for "underperformance" is a joke despite how at will employment works in some workplaces.

 

[irish1958]

I thought scholarships were for one year (elsewhere, not ND). If so, they don't get pulled or taken away; they are just not renewed.
Am I wrong?