Nose Tackle/ D-Line Discussion

[chicago51]

Some food for thought, without a dominating NT the 3-4 doesn’t work. So yeah, if we had to give up a recruit or two (depends on the recruit of course) to land this guy I would have to consider it.

While its nice a transedent talent like Nix a dominant NT is not required to be an elite defense running a 3-4. Yes you need a wide body thats at least 310 lbs that will drawn a center guard double team. But... you don't necessarily need a guy great at pentrating the line of scrimage like. You don't many dominate NTs in the NFL just space eaters. ND can beef up someone like Springman to the 310-315 lb range get by just fine.

Me saying that ND can remaine an elite defense with a dominant penetrator at the NT is assuming that they will continue to bring in studs at DE, and LB. Dick Lebeau Stealers DC actually said the DEs in his 3-4 (which are basically DTs) are more important than the NT and the NT is like I said just a wide body to take up space and be an imovable object against the run. The pass rush in NDs 3-4 can come from the DEs and the CAT linebacker.

 

[condoms SUCk]

While its nice a transedent talent like Nix a dominant NT is not required to be an elite defense running a 3-4. Yes you need a wide body thats at least 310 lbs that will drawn a center guard double team. But... you don't necessarily need a guy great at pentrating the line of scrimage like. You don't many dominate NTs in the NFL just space eaters. ND can beef up someone like Springman to the 310-315 lb range get by just fine.

Me saying that ND can remaine an elite defense with a dominant penetrator at the NT is assuming that they will continue to bring in studs at DE, and LB. Dick Lebeau Stealers DC actually said the DEs in his 3-4 (which are basically DTs) are more important than the NT and the NT is like I said just a wide body to take up space and be an imovable object against the run. The pass rush in NDs 3-4 can come from the DEs and the CAT linebacker.

Yeah I know about the Dick Lebeau comment, I would attest that the more dominating (physically and more so athletically) the NT the more attention said NT will receive allowing the DE's and OLB's more 1:1 opportunities and greater risk of missed assignments.
If you just have a NT that can be neutralized by one o-lineman other resources can be used to double a great DE or instead of a RB being used in pass protection that RB can be sent out as a weapon.

That’s where I’m coming from, but I digress.

 

[chicago51]

Yeah I know about the Dick Lebeau comment, I would attest that the more dominating (physically and more so athletically) the NT the more attention said NT will receive allowing the DE's and OLB's more 1:1 opportunities and greater risk of missed assignments.
If you just have a NT that can be neutralized by one o-lineman other resources can be used to double a great DE or instead of a RB being used in pass protection that RB can be sent out as a weapon.

That’s where I’m coming from, but I digress.

Yes I admit having a guy like Nix that is dominant is a heck of a nice thing to have! So I get where your coming from as well. Yes it would be great to get Eddie V!

I guess my point being just losing Nix alone is not going cause ND to start giving up over 20 points a game again. Sure 10.1 points a game every year is not going to happen but ND should be in the top 10 in scoring def (13-16 ppg range) on a regular basis with the talent they are bringing and the coaches they have on that side of the ball.

 

[Emcee77]

While its nice a transedent talent like Nix a dominant NT is not required to be an elite defense running a 3-4. Yes you need a wide body thats at least 310 lbs that will drawn a center guard double team. But... you don't necessarily need a guy great at pentrating the line of scrimage like. You don't many dominate NTs in the NFL just space eaters. ND can beef up someone like Springman to the 310-315 lb range get by just fine.

Yes, I totally agree. Nix is great but I think Springmann will be a solid NG when we put some more beef on him. He is only a redshirt frosh. He'll hold up his end, and as long as the DEs and LBs hold up theirs we will be fine. Not to minimize the loss of Nix; he's an amazing player. But just like we've said about Floyd, you compensate for losing a superstar not by replacing him with another superstar but by everybody stepping up their game a little bit. That's all.

That said, a way EASIER way to compensate for losing a superstar is just to GET ANOTHER SUPERSTAR. Eddie V, come on down!

 

[Luckylucci]

^^^ I agree. And just to add to that point I think our LB corp will be getting better over the next couple of years. Obviously losing Manti hurts but as a 4 man group I think we'll be getting better.

 

[Irish#1]

The difference between a very good 3-4 defense and an elite defense quite often is the NT. When he can do more than take up space and blocks it makes things much more difficult for the O.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The difference between a very good 3-4 defense and an elite defense quite often is the NT. When he can do more than take up space and blocks it makes things much more difficult for the O.

Would you consider 'Bama's 3-4 to be elite or just "very good"? Because their NT, Jesse Williams, is not much of a pass rusher. His 2012 stats: 36 tackles, 2.5 TFL, 1 sack, 2 PBU and 4 QB hurries.

The point is that having a NT that can pass-rush is a luxury. Yes, it makes your defense better, because you can still generate pressure while leaving an extra guy in coverage, but the scheme doesn't depend on it. The 3-4 depends on its OLBs for pass rush; if your ROLB and DOLB can't get pressure on the QB, then you've got serious schematic problems.

I was kidding, you. You were the tangent, JACK!

I'm certain a mod would never post off-topic, particularly in a recruit's thread.

 

[Luckylucci]

Great post Whiskey, I was thinking the exact same thing. Just hadn't put my fingers to the keyboard yet.

 

[NDhoosier]

I agree with Whiskey as well, i think guys are overreacting... you seem to think after we lose Nix, it is destined that we go to a 4-3 defense. We are stacked at LB and that is Diaco's specialty, ND will stick with the 3-4. Just because we might not have a dominate NT like Nix, doesnt mean, the 3-4 is useless. Nix is a special talent, and there are plenty of teams that do well without a Nix-type of talent. Calm down guys, Nix is very good, but its not the end of the world without him.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Would you consider 'Bama's 3-4 to be elite or just "very good"? Because their NT, Jesse Williams, is not much of a pass rusher. His 2012 stats: 36 tackles, 2.5 TFL, 1 sack, 2 PBU and 4 QB hurries.

The point is that having a NT that can pass-rush is a luxury. Yes, it makes your defense better, because you can still generate pressure while leaving an extra guy in coverage, but the scheme doesn't depend on it.



I'm certain a mod would never post off-topic, particularly in a recruit's thread.

I agree, and just to add: Vince Wilfork is an elite NT and possibly the best in the NFL. He is incredibly athletic for his size and can get into the backfield on passing and running plays when he is asked to do so. And guess what? The Patriots 3-4 defense would hardly be described as "great." The overall quality of a defense is not based on what one guy does at one position. That is greatly oversimplifying it. Nix is an awesome player and is a big reason why the defense is so good, but if the next generation Irish defense doesn't have a Nix clone they can still be good - they will just need to get elite performances from another position. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Irish#1]

Would you consider 'Bama's 3-4 to be elite or just "very good"? Because their NT, Jesse Williams, is not much of a pass rusher. His 2012 stats: 36 tackles, 2.5 TFL, 1 sack, 2 PBU and 4 QB hurries.

The point is that having a NT that can pass-rush is a luxury. Yes, it makes your defense better, because you can still generate pressure while leaving an extra guy in coverage, but the scheme doesn't depend on it. The 3-4 depends on its OLBs for pass rush; if your ROLB and DOLB can't get pressure on the QB, then you've got serious schematic problems.



I'm certain a mod would never post off-topic, particularly in a recruit's thread.

Very good, but not elite. I understand that a 3-4 is designed for the OLB to be the pass rush. All I'm saying is when you get a guy at NT that can pass rush it can malke a significant difference because you have to use extra bodies to stop him which takes protection away from some place else or keeps the RB from being a safety valve forcing the QB to throw across the LOS.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Very good, but not elite.

How about Florida's 3-4? The Gators' defense is the only one FEI rates better than ours. Their starting NT, Omar Hunter, isn't much of a pass rusher either. His 2012 stats: 39 tackles, 4 TFL, 4 PBU.

By design, a 3-4 defense needs two things-- (1) big, strong DL that can two-gap, and (2) athletic OLBs who can both pass rush and drop into coverage. Any pass rush your DL can produce, particularly from the NT, is just gravy; it obviously makes you better, but it's not a prerequisite for the scheme.

It's sort of like QB mobility. Most offensive schemes don't require it to be successful, but it's certainly nice to have.

 

[Cackalacky]

Whiskey,
Are you like a cyborg programmed full of useful information and great posts?

Just curious.

 

[Emcee77]

I agree with Whiskey as well, i think guys are overreacting... you seem to think after we lose Nix, it is destined that we go to a 4-3 defense. We are stacked at LB and that is Diaco's specialty, ND will stick with the 3-4. Just because we might not have a dominate NT like Nix, doesnt mean, the 3-4 is useless. Nix is a special talent, and there are plenty of teams that do well without a Nix-type of talent. Calm down guys, Nix is very good, but its not the end of the world without him.

Right. I think this discussion started when someone asked if we would have to switch from a 3-4 to a 4-3 when Nix leaves. The answer is no. Nix has done more than the system requires him to do this year. That doesn't mean that the system won't work without him.

 

[Emcee77]

Whiskey,
Are you like a cyborg programmed full of useful information and great posts?

Just curious.

Whiskey should have his own show. He's halfway there ... his title is "the Oprah of reps."

 

[ep1987]

NT: Pass rushing is a bonus, but not just any 300lber can step in and anchor the line. Space eating NT's who engulf two blockers and are tough to move, thus cloging up the middle aren't easy to find. If they were we'd be recruiting at Arbys.

 

[TheTurningPoint]

Heres some food for thought....when it comes to the 3-4.

1. Nix is having himself a hell of a year. He takes 2 guys essentially to block him every play. That obviously lets LBs get free, allows for gap control, dictates the middle, and just blows up some plays.

2. Nix is what most 3-4's need aka Vince W up in New england, any number of the steelers DTs, and Ngata...etc. But those defense are based off zone blitzes, and blitzing schemes.

3. ND's defense is not based off of zone blitz, or various blitz packages. NDs NG needs to be able to control his gap/assignment, and make sure the C/G doesnt get to teh 2nd level. Nix obviously does that, as well as the added bonus of pass rush, and bull rush,etc

4. Sean Cwynar started and did quite well. No offense to Sean, but each kid we have that will be playing that position for the next 10 years will be better than him. Sean played gap control, and did his job. Nothing more, nothing less, and we had a good defense.

5. Obviously we dont want good, we want great esp after this year. But heres the thing. ND is getting talent, speed, athleticism at LB that ND hasnt had for quite some time. Diaco/Kelly/Martin arent set in their ways so much that they wont let these kids make plays.

6. My hunch is that ND does evolve to a point where we are just sitting back. Which means ND doesnt need to have a Nix in there doing what Nix does. Sure, its always a HUGE plus to have that on a Natl level...but at the sametime if ND doesnt, its not going to kill them. Ive mentioned in several posts that Hounshell, Springmann, Tuitt, Jarron, Day, Rochell, Kona, are all more than capable of getting in there and gettign the job done.

If ND gets a guy like Vanderdoes, and possibly Hayes...thats just a plus, but at the sametime Im not going to sweat it bc NDs D is going to have a a different identity in over the course of BKs tenure.

 

[Irish#1]

How about Florida's 3-4? The Gators' defense is the only one FEI rates better than ours. Their starting NT, Omar Hunter, isn't much of a pass rusher either. His 2012 stats: 39 tackles, 4 TFL, 4 PBU.

By design, a 3-4 defense needs two things-- (1) big, strong DL that can two-gap, and (2) athletic OLBs who can both pass rush and drop into coverage. Any pass rush your DL can produce, particularly from the NT, is just gravy; it obviously makes you better, but it's not a prerequisite for the scheme.

It's sort of like QB mobility. Most offensive schemes don't require it to be successful, but it's certainly nice to have.

I get it the concept and how it works. I wouldn't put UF's in that category either. When I talk of elite defenses, I usually reserve that for the teams that don't average 10 points a game by shutting out one opponent than letting the next score 20. To me an elite D performs extremely well in rush defense, pass defense and is consistent in scoring defense and holds teams to 7-8 points per game. I realize we might be splitting hairs, but it's just my opinion and we know what they say about opinions and rear ends.

P.S. I don't disagree with any of you that say we can still be a very good D without a Nix.

 

[scUM Hater]

So to clear it up, we are looking for a big guy with speed as nose tackle?

 

[chubler]

To clear up the other half of the conversation...
In my mind our defense when Nix leaves looks more like Stanford 2012 schematically than ND 2012- Dline eats space, Linebackers blow up plays?
...unless we somehow replace Nix with a similar talent. Then look out...

 

[Kak7304]

We could always go with a quicker line up w/ Day, Jones, Tuitt. Different way of creating mismatches.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Anyway we can take this fascinating conversation about the future of the defense to another thread? I think its a conversation worth having, but it is only tangentially related to the recruit.

 

[Irish YJ]

Anyway we can take this fascinating conversation about the future of the defense to another thread? I think its a conversation worth having, but it is only tangentially related to the recruit.

Agreed. I hate when it happens and I just participated in the hijacking..

 

[TheTurningPoint]

Just look at the guys we are recruiting too. All of them are able to be "swing" guys like tuitt/niklas(froshyear)/kap. Even guys like Randolph/AQM...they are able to play Princes spot and yet have the capability of growing into a Kap guy where they can hold an edge and slide inside. That kind of athleticism is scary. Sure you want a Nix type but like stated above the 3-4 gives a defense so many options on scheme. Having that LB that can stand or put a hand in the ground seems so simple but yet makes everything so different. The staff knows more than any of us...trust them. They built ND into what it is and there have been so many questions posed, yet 12-0 is a pretty solid answer. They have won everywhere they have been...so a DT/NG debate is kinda "irrelevant" bc they have a grasp on what they need.

 

[Irish YJ]

Just look at the guys we are recruiting too. All of them are able to be "swing" guys like tuitt/niklas(froshyear)/kap. Even guys like Randolph/AQM...they are able to play Princes spot and yet have the capability of growing into a Kap guy where they can hold an edge and slide inside. That kind of athleticism is scary. Sure you want a Nix type but like stated above the 3-4 gives a defense so many options on scheme. Having that LB that can stand or put a hand in the ground seems so simple but yet makes everything so different. The staff knows more than any of us...trust them. They built ND into what it is and there have been so many questions posed, yet 12-0 is a pretty solid answer. They have won everywhere they have been...so a DT/NG debate is kinda "irrelevant" bc they have a grasp on what they need.

TP - I agree 200 percent. Still doesn't mean having a Nix like stud similar to EV isn't tops on my Christmas list. I do trust BK and company, so not worried. One thing I will miss, that will be very hard to replace, is Nix's sense of humor. Love that guy.

 

[IrishLion]

If/When Diaco leaves, and with all of the talent coming in on the defensive side, I wouldn't be opposed to an evolution from this "conservative" defense to a swarming, aggressive, intentionally ball-hawking defense. I loved the defense BK had in his first two seasons at UC. Sacks, TFL, and INTs all in the top fifteen nationally.

Not sure if this was BKs defensive preference, or if he was simply letting his d-coordinator call the aggresive D, as he lets Diaco run the "control" defense now.

 

[ulukinatme]

I think we can have a very good D without Nix, but certainly not as good. The truth of the matter is that football is decided in the trenches. If you have a crummy O-line or D-line theres only so long you can survive off flashy plays and a talented supporting cast. Yeah, you can plug any number of big guys in the middle of the 3-4, but how many are going to be as disruptive and pull double teams regularly like Nix? I thought we had some decent DT/NTs in the past, but not like Big Lou. It can be hard to find a guy that fits that mold well.

 

[georgia irish]

Who is the 2014 NT we are looking to sign.

 

[dublinirish]

Who is the 2014 NT we are looking to sign.

Enoch Smith

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

Note to self : don't post from phone anymore