BK: Field Turf is Coming

[Patulski]

You're repeatedly bringing up a convicted felon's name...

Yet you still use Urban Meyer as a point of reference?

Yes, to show the paradox of how "integrity" is applied at Notre Dame. Get it?

 

[Irish#1]

If you are going to have an offense built around speed, you probably want to be playing on turf.

Nothing personal here, but this is exactly the flawed logic for the turf arguement that bothers me. Granted, you may be able to run faster on turf, but if both teams are playing on the same surface it balances out so there is no real advantage.

 

[NDinFL]

Yes, to show the paradox of how "integrity" is applied at Notre Dame. Get it?

What I get is:

You want ND to use the same supposed philosophy as a coach that had 30+ arrests (some FELONIES) In 3 years, mind you, at UF

Yet, you still harp on the fact that we have a performing arts center with a convicted felon's name on it....

So, yeah, I think I get it.

 

[PraetorianND]

Nothing personal here, but this is exactly the flawed logic for the turf arguement that bothers me. Granted, you may be able to run faster on turf, but if both teams are playing on the same surface it balances out so there is no real advantage.

I think they should play on turf because that's what the practice on.

 

[rocket31]

really hope i still have my mind once i get older...this thread has be mightily concerned.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

What I get is:

You want ND to use the same supposed philosophy as a coach that had 30+ arrests (some FELONIES) In 3 years, mind you, at UF

Yet, you still harp on the fact that we have a performing arts center with a convicted felon's name on it....

So, yeah, I think I get it.

I thought it was named for a different member of his family anyway.

 

[Patulski]

So you are fine with completely trashing Notre Dame's tradition of academic excellence, but you draw the line on field turf?

If you think 15 JUCO's would completely trash Notre Dame's tradition of academic excellence, I would disagree. I see it as a pragmatic strategy based on the advice of a NC winning coach. Nothing would change for 99% of the student body and athletes. It may work. It might not. I'd do that before changing the stadium and game day traditions.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So tell me what you think our record is going to be in 2012. That will tell me much more about your belief in this program's progress than this verbal dancing.

Against this schedule, I'd be OK with 8-4. If we manage 9-3, I'll be very happy. 2013 and 2014 are the years in which Kelly really has to deliver.

After being asked what my solution was to the situation, I alluded to Urban Meyer's request for 5 JUCO's for three years to jumpstart the program. If that is reactionary, delusional and ultimately harmful to the program's progress, I'll defer to Meyer's conception of what's needed before heeding anybody else's opinion. I believe if we had done it, we would have been in a far better position than we are today. You don't. Let's agree to disagree.

Urban Meyer knows a lot about winning football games, but integrity is not his strong suit. If we had conceded to his demand for JUCOs, he might be our HC today; but what other concessions would he have demanded after that? We may have won a NC championship recently as well, but what would our program look like? I certainly wouldn't swap our program for Florida's right now.

As others have explained, JUCOs are typically mercenaries with poor grades. Yes, they can help you win football games, but ND's is not a culture in which such players can be successfully integrated. Put another way, for ND to make good use of JUCOs, we'd have to concede a lot more than that specific policy.

If you are so concerned about the integrity of ND, you should get on the phone with Jenkins' office and ask them why they still have a convicted felon's name on their Performing Arts Center. Have you done that? I did. It's seems to me that concerning integrity, taking money from a convicted felon caught up in a casino bribery scandal-and putting said felons name on a Performing Arts Center- is much worse than having a temporary cessation on the ban on JUCO's for three years and 15 players.

This is a total red herring. The DeBartolos are a very wealthy family with strong ND connections. DeBartolo, Jr. was involved in the following scandal:

DeBartolo was involved in the corruption case of former Louisiana governor Edwin Edwards. He pleaded guilty to a charge of failing to report a felony, and received a $1 million fine and two years of probation in return for his testimony against Edwards. Edwards was on trial for extortion and other charges, among which were the $400,000 he demanded from DeBartolo to gain a river boat casino license. DeBartolo never received the license, was fined by the NFL, and barred from active control of the 49ers for one year.

You think that ND lacks integrity because it accepted millions of dollars from this family? Let's set aside for a moment that the type of government corruption described above is extremely common in this country... if all nonprofits were held to the absurd standard you're setting for ND, most charities would go belly up. If the buildings were named after Madoff or Hitler, you might have an argument, but that's not the case.

I like you Patulski, as you occasionally post some really good stuff. But most of what you've posted in this thread is just reactionary Luddism. It would be red meat over at NDNation; you would seriously be getting a standing ovation over there. But you won't find much support for this mindset here.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Who's the convicted felon we're talking about? What was his crime?

[EDIT Never mind -- answered above.]

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Well, seeing that my Dad played for Leahy, I saw my first game in 1965, graduated in 1981 and my daughter graduated in 2005, I can tell you : The ship has been sinking since 1995. It is so completely obvious to me, who I daresay has a lot more experience (and ND blood running through my veins) with ND football than you.

You know where you can stick your "bail" comment. I'm not going to bail, I'm going to align my views- and my money- with those who want our tradition of greatness restored, not further eroded.

And who are you to tell me "we'll make it to port safe and sound". Are you involved in the university at a decision making level? If you are, the past two 8-5 seasons sucked, and Kelly is looking a lot like Bob Davie: A guy who produced mediocre teams, but had a ton of excuses why he failed and what he needed to succeed. This latest Kelly excuse, "that his players were awed by the stadium", is the most ridiculous excuse yet.

I had to leave the thread, but it seems when I came back that there was quite a brouhaha taking place on this thread. I looked back and pinned it all to your comments. You know people not as steeped in tradition, or as lucky as you can love Notre Dame. That's what people like Father Corby intended. They wanted to give what they had to as many people as possible.

You sir, from everything I have read here, are a snob.

 

[Patulski]

What I get is:

You want ND to use the same supposed philosophy as a coach that had 30+ arrests (some FELONIES) In 3 years, mind you, at UF

Yet, you still harp on the fact that we have a performing arts center with a convicted felon's name on it....

So, yeah, I think I get it.

No, you don't get it. It's all about money. If ND needed the money, they would take the collateral damage, though I doubt it would be at Florida levels because ND's culture is different than Florida's.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I thought it was named for a different member of his family anyway.

Bingo. All those buildings are named after DeBartolo Sr. and his wife, Marie. Patulski seems to think that because Jr. got extorted by an elected official and failed to report it, the DeBartolos are a criminal syndicate, and every cent ND has ever received from the family is somehow tainted.

 

[NDinFL]

If you think 15 JUCO's would completely trash Notre Dame's tradition of academic excellence, I would disagree. I see it as a pragmatic strategy based on the advice of a NC winning coach. Nothing would change for 99% of the student body and athletes. It may work. It might not. I'd do that before changing the stadium and game day traditions.

you think of it as a strategy, from one, Urban Meyer...

You're side stepping things with your "money" statements. It's about football, and if you want to lay with the dogs (Urban Meyer) then you're going to get fleas.

Sure, it's easy to say that it may not affect the culture of our beloved ND, but how do you know?

What if they allowed 15 JUCO'S and had tremendous success on the field, but not so much in campus and classroom life?

Edit: and stop bringing up the DeBartolos.. That argument has been slain

 

[ndfi78]

No, you don't get it. It's all about money. If ND needed the money, they would take the collateral damage, though I doubt it would be at Florida levels because ND's culture is different than Florida's.

And you don't think CUM would have changed the culture here? You are already talking about changing it by accepting JUCO's. JUCO's that 99.99% of the time would NEVER qualify at ND.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Okay; Kelly said he forgot to use the word. "hope."

As in hope springs eternal.

Jumbotrons are stupid. They are just big TV's. Nothing on TV is real. That is why people that were born before the generation raised in front of the tube, call them idiot boxes.

Stanford didn't need to lower it's academic standards to kick our @sses three years straight. And they almost played for the NC. All this from a school that could barely win an intersquad scrimmage four years previously. And they never had the big time tradition as Notre Dame does.

Here is my idea: Throw out all the jumbotron idiots, all the behavoral misfits, all the seeped in tradition, old time snobs, and let Kelly do his job! You don't think the political circus exemplified by this thread today isn't one of the biggest coach, therefore championship killers?

 

[woolybug25]

Provide a source that Urban only wanted them for three seasons. I was told that he wanted a certain number of them each year in perpetuity.

So I guess that's a "no"?



yes... I quoted myself...

 

[ND NYC]

forget the field turf thing for a second...just give me some direct flights into/out of south bend from newark, laguardia or jfk on football weekends!
tired of the puddle jumpers and/or drives down from chitown!
any news on sbn airport expanding those runways??

 

[Patulski]

I had to leave the thread, but it seems when I came back that there was quite a brouhaha taking place on this thread. I looked back and pinned it all to your comments. You know people not as steeped in tradition, or as lucky as you can love Notre Dame. That's what people like Father Corby intended. They wanted to give what they had to as many people as possible.

You sir, from everything I have read here, are a snob.

I'm not sure how you went from my belief that we would have been better off hiring Meyer and giving him his JUCO concessions to being a snob. The only reason I talked about my experience and access to ND was because one of the posters told me that if I thought the ship was sinking, I should bail. I thought telling him my experience would help him understand why I wouldn't be the one to "bail".

This is a nice board and I don't want this thread to get locked, because the direction of the program is important to a lot of people for different reasons. So, debate is a good thing. So far though, I've been told that my logic is asinine and that I'm a snob. I have not returned fire with ad hominem attacks. I prefer this board because the moderators insist on decorum. I hope that continues.

 

[Bobias]

Bingo. All those buildings are named after DeBartolo Sr. and his wife, Marie. Patulski seems to think that because Jr. got extorted by an elected official and failed to report it, the DeBartolos are a criminal syndicate, and every cent ND has ever received from the family is somehow tainted.

This.

How do you overlook these facts and see the DeBartolo name as tainted, whereas you are advocating lowering NDs academic standards in order to compete in a game. That goes directly against that academic integrety that you keep preaching about. We are talking about a simple renovation to a campus building, where you are talking about bending the basic principles that the university was founded on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't think it say anything about having a grass field in the Notre Dame mission statement. Get a clue Patulski

 

[Patulski]

So I guess that's a "no"?



yes... I quoted myself...

I would not advocate for JUCO's in perpetuity.

And I'm not going to divulge my source on a message board, though it is common knowledge that Meyer wanted JUCO's.

South Bend is a small town, where Notre Dame faculty and administrators commonly interact, mostly through parish churches and schools. For example, my source told me about Meyer on the church steps of St. Joe Grade parish.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

This was interesting on everydayshouldbesaturday.com:

AND FIELD TURF RUINS NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL FOREVER. We talked a bit about FieldTurf coming to Notre Dame on Twitter, but to reiterate a really obvious series of points:


•The problem with the ND in-game experience is not a Jumbotron, or the lack of one, or the wooden seats, or the grass. It is the ethos of sad asses planted to seats shushing anyone who shows enthusiasm.

•If you want this to be your thing, and to keep Notre Dame as the Westminster Dog Show of football environments, that's fine. That's your thing. It will be the opposite of fun, and a drudge to watch, and it will be tradition because tradition because tradition. You go ahead and do that.

•But if that is not what you want--and there are Notre Dame fans who do not want this, and would like to have a good time at games without things devolving to utter, LSU-ish anarchy--then you need to do a few things.

•You need to stand up. You need to stop telling others to sit down. You need to yell. You need to act like you care without being the repressed Midwestern uncle of in-stadium fanbases. You see what the student section is doing? DO THAT. Okay, don't attempt pushups on top of the extended hands of your friends, because that's a great way to dislocate a middle-aged shoulder. But the other stuff, yeah: DO THAT.

•Those who don't like it can go to the luxury boxes, where you can feel really great about all the money you've made via superior virtue, and most definitely not because of your social connections purchased through a degree. You go up there, and let the wolves have their fun in the stands.

•It is a football game. It is not Death of a Salesman in pads.

•Oh, and fire every usher in the place. They're worthless pocket fascists who wear--we are not kidding--UNIFORMS. Point and laugh at them until they leave if firing is too complex.
If you want a real environment, do all that. If you want the mausoleum, just keep on doing you, Notre Dame. We could couldn't care less, since there are no fewer than fifty or sixty college football stadiums we would rather see a game at. Boise has a better atmosphere than South Bend once the whistle starts, even if you get kicked out in the first quarter for drinking in the stands. Which we did. On a work assignment. Go Broncos.

[/end Notre Dame monologue]

 

[NDinFL]

^hilarious

 

[Whiskeyjack]

^hilarious

And sadly true.

 

[ChiRish]

This was interesting on everydayshouldbesaturday.com:

AND FIELD TURF RUINS NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL FOREVER. We talked a bit about FieldTurf coming to Notre Dame on Twitter, but to reiterate a really obvious series of points:


•The problem with the ND in-game experience is not a Jumbotron, or the lack of one, or the wooden seats, or the grass. It is the ethos of sad asses planted to seats shushing anyone who shows enthusiasm.

•If you want this to be your thing, and to keep Notre Dame as the Westminster Dog Show of football environments, that's fine. That's your thing. It will be the opposite of fun, and a drudge to watch, and it will be tradition because tradition because tradition. You go ahead and do that.

•But if that is not what you want--and there are Notre Dame fans who do not want this, and would like to have a good time at games without things devolving to utter, LSU-ish anarchy--then you need to do a few things.

•You need to stand up. You need to stop telling others to sit down. You need to yell. You need to act like you care without being the repressed Midwestern uncle of in-stadium fanbases. You see what the student section is doing? DO THAT. Okay, don't attempt pushups on top of the extended hands of your friends, because that's a great way to dislocate a middle-aged shoulder. But the other stuff, yeah: DO THAT.

•Those who don't like it can go to the luxury boxes, where you can feel really great about all the money you've made via superior virtue, and most definitely not because of your social connections purchased through a degree. You go up there, and let the wolves have their fun in the stands.

•It is a football game. It is not Death of a Salesman in pads.

•Oh, and fire every usher in the place. They're worthless pocket fascists who wear--we are not kidding--UNIFORMS. Point and laugh at them until they leave if firing is too complex.
If you want a real environment, do all that. If you want the mausoleum, just keep on doing you, Notre Dame. We could couldn't care less, since there are no fewer than fifty or sixty college football stadiums we would rather see a game at. Boise has a better atmosphere than South Bend once the whistle starts, even if you get kicked out in the first quarter for drinking in the stands. Which we did. On a work assignment. Go Broncos.

[/end Notre Dame monologue]

Awesome.

 

[ND NYC]

i prefer the natural grass myself but if we at some point in the future went to the field turf, i wouldnt have a problem with it at all and dont think its "killing any traditions" for us.
the field turf will look like "real grass" anyways but hold up a lot better all season long. nothin wrong with that.

i also am indifferent to a jumbotron (put it in or not-i don't care).

all i DO CARE about is WINNING football games and WINNING NC's and maintaining our academic integrity.
this is why i vehemtly disagree with the poster calling for 15 JUCO's above.

i find it hard to believe someone with his ND pedigree is calling for/wishing for that.

 

[koonja]

Well, seeing that my Dad played for Leahy, I saw my first game in 1965, graduated in 1981 and my daughter graduated in 2005, I can tell you : The ship has been sinking since 1995. It is so completely obvious to me, who I daresay has a lot more experience (and ND blood running through my veins) with ND football than you.

You know where you can stick your "bail" comment. I'm not going to bail, I'm going to align my views- and my money- with those who want our tradition of greatness restored, not further eroded.

And who are you to tell me "we'll make it to port safe and sound". Are you involved in the university at a decision making level? If you are, the past two 8-5 seasons sucked, and Kelly is looking a lot like Bob Davie: A guy who produced mediocre teams, but had a ton of excuses why he failed and what he needed to succeed. This latest Kelly excuse, "that his players were awed by the stadium", is the most ridiculous excuse yet.

You're loyal to tradition. That's respectable. But being loyal has its limitations. Ever seen the Titanic? Those violin players were loyal to the ship. They died.

Turfs up, tron it out, just win, baby.

 

[Patulski]

Bingo. All those buildings are named after DeBartolo Sr. and his wife, Marie. Patulski seems to think that because Jr. got extorted by an elected official and failed to report it, the DeBartolos are a criminal syndicate, and every cent ND has ever received from the family is somehow tainted.

I never called the DeBartolos a criminal syndicate, I called Jr. a convicted felon. Do you deny this?

And to deny Jr's involvement in Notre Dame's DeBartolo Quad flies in the face of reality. When giving a $33 million dollar gift to ND, he said ""The education which I received at the university was of the finest quality and has enabled me to attain both my personal and professional goals." So, to assert that DeBartolo Hall and DeBartolo Quad doesn't include Jr. is ignoring his financial involvement.

 

[NDinFL]

I never called the DeBartolos a criminal syndicate, I called Jr. a convicted felon. Do you deny this?

And to deny Jr's involvement in Notre Dame's DeBartolo Quad flies in the face of reality. When giving a $33 million dollar gift to ND, he said ""The education which I received at the university was of the finest quality and has enabled me to attain both my personal and professional goals." So, to assert that DeBartolo Hall and DeBartolo Quad doesn't include Jr. is ignoring his financial involvement.

True, but the way you overemphasized "convicted felon" when talking about his name being on the building made it seem like he was an evil bastard.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I never called the DeBartolos a criminal syndicate, I called Jr. a convicted felon. Do you deny this?

Both DeBartolo Sr. and Jr. are successful alumni who have donated lots of money to ND. Jr. was convicted for failing to report an elected official's attempt to extort him. Consequently, you feel that ND has lost any and all claim to "integrity", and that it should immediately sell out its academic standards in the pursuit of on-field success.

Am I following you?

 

[irishtrinity]

Keep the grass...Love it!! No way it adds or slows us down... Both teams play on it..lol

Add more seats jumbotron.. Plus it's really old saying the same old things about the crowd.. First time i was there a 80 yr old lady was up cheering getting down, some teachers son was right beside me so we did some push ups with him we were all cheering clapping hands having a blast.. Western michigan by the way we had a double wave for like 12 minutes everyone was so happy and cheering greatest time ever..

Sorry to rant, but always want to give a true perspective from the 2010-2011 yrs.. Greatest 3 days of my life!