A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

mgriff

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GTFO if you haven't read all the books. We will be talking about all five books and the implications in lore and all the juicy stuff GRRM gives us to figure out! This whole thread will be spoilers! I cannot stress enough that you should close this thread and read all the books before you scroll down at all! LEAVE NOW!!!

Alright, I know there is a GoT thread on here already, which is great. I'm happy to see people are appreciating the work of GRRM. Some of us (Wiskey and myself thus far) are like crackheads wanting to discuss certain aspects of the books which really are just huuuuge spoilers for those of you who just started reading or are only watching the show. Since I am far too lazy to pm Whiskey repeatedly, I'm making a thread to discuss it with the most in your face spoiler alert eva! This is your last warning. Leave this thread if you haven't read all the books or don't want to discuss all the hidden gems left for us to uncover by GRRM.


The first topic is Jon Snow's parentage.
We are on to the a whole new theory I've never even heard of; The Mad King and Joanna Lannister.
 
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mgriff

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Yea I agree, I put it in the title and devoted a whole bold/underlined paragraph. I'm even thinking about just making a few posts to get the content to the bottom of the first page so people who can't follow instructions don't complain.

I'll leave it to Whiskey(Or Emcee who's lurking wanting to know about Jon Snow's parentage) to post what theory he would like to discuss first. There are just so ****ing many, I will update the first post to reflect what page to go to when we have had our fill of one. I don't want it to get derailed since there are so many. If we can focus on one at a time I think that would be ideal.
 
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Emcee77

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Ah, good ... ok, so mgriff, are you in the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow camp? Or what? I think I've heard most of the theories; just wondering if there's another I should know about.

(Or Emcee who's lurking wanting to know about Jon Snow's parentage)

lol busted
 
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mgriff

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Ah, good ... ok, so mgriff, are you in the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow camp? Or what? I think I've heard most of the theories; just wondering if there's another I should know about.



lol busted

SPOILERS MOTHER****ER! TURN BACK NOW! This really is your last warning because the paragraph after this will ruin your ****ing day if you haven't read all five books or don't want to find **** out!

Hahah yes. That seems to be hinted at very strongly through the information in the books, from the tournament at Harrenhal, where Rhaegar proclaims Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty. His wife couldn't have any more children, and Rhaegar was very bookish as a youth, until one day he said he needed to be a knight. Did he know he had to produce The Prince that Was Promised through prophecy, by uniting Ice and Fire Stark/Targaryen? I don't know, but by the events at the Tower of Joy and Lyanna's lack of love for Robert, despite being betrothed to him, suggests she wasn't crazy about marrying him and that it wasn't kidnapping and rape. She makes Ned promise and why else would the Kingsguard be waiting at the ToJ when Rhaegar and the rest of the Targaryens were elsewhere? There had to be a member of the royal family present at the ToJ. Methinks it was Jon, and Ned had to foster him to protect him from Robert.
 
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RyCo1983

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Great book series....I love them...I've been too busy to comment on the tv show thread.
Good stuff.
 

mgriff

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Great book series....I love them...I've been too busy to comment on the tv show thread.
Good stuff.

Well we're going to be getting down with all of the juicy details left for us to discover, so stick around and add to the discussion. We are starting with Jon Snow's parentage.
 

mgriff

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Me in this thread wanting to move on the the Night's King/Watch and the dark side of the Starks, the true purpose of the wall, secret Targs and Blackfyres, the list goes on. This is what it's like to be a crackhead
images
 

Whiskeyjack

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Theory: Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion are the children of Aerys Targaryen and Joanna Lannister.

Support: Tyrion's white hair, one purple eye, love of dragons, and brilliance are all Targaryen traits. Cersei's oncoming madness, obsession with fire, and predilection for incest are as well. Same goes for Jaime with the incest, and his martial prowess.

There wasn't much to support this theory until aDwD, in which Martin specifically refers to Aerys' fondness for Joanna. He could just be trolling us, but methinks there's too much to this to be coincidence now.

Backstory: Tywin has always been obsessed with restoring the Lannisters to glory, but he was impotent. Thus, in order to produce heirs and to ensure that a Lannister would one day sit upon the throne, he arranged for Aerys to impregnate Joanna. Since "his" children would be half Targaryen, they'd have a much better chance of marrying into the royal family.

Joanna bore the twins, Cersei and Jaime, and later Tyrion, during whose birth she died. This partly explains Tywin's disdain for Tyrion; when he says that Tyrion is the gods' punishment for his sins, the sin he's referring to is his arrangement with Aerys.

I'm not sure if they were ever actually betrothed, but it was at least expected that Cersei would marry Rhaegar at some point. Her POVs have stated that clearly. Aerys changes his mind though (perhaps at the Tourney at Harrenhal?) and claims that Targaryens don't marry their servants. That slight to Tywin becomes rank betrayal in light of the Lannister children's parentage, which causes Tywin to turn on Aerys.

Sorry I can't produce page numbers and exact quotes atm. Don't have my books at hand.
 

mgriff

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Theory: Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion are the children of Aerys Targaryen and Joanna Lannister.

Support: Tyrion's white hair, one purple eye, love of dragons, and brilliance are all Targaryen traits. Cersei's oncoming madness, obsession with fire, and predilection for incest are as well. Same goes for Jaime with the incest, and his martial prowess.

There wasn't much to support this theory until aDwD, in which Martin specifically refers to Aerys' fondness for Joanna. He could just be trolling us, but methinks there's too much to this to be coincidence now.

Backstory: Tywin has always been obsessed with restoring the Lannisters to glory, but he was impotent. Thus, in order to produce heirs and to ensure that a Lannister would one day sit upon the throne, he arranged for Aerys to impregnate Joanna. Since "his" children would be half Targaryen, they'd have a much better chance of marrying into the royal family.

Joanna bore the twins, Cersei and Jaime, and later Tyrion, during whose birth she died. This partly explains Tywin's disdain for Tyrion; when he says that Tyrion is the gods' punishment for his sins, the sin he's referring to is his arrangement with Aerys.

I'm not sure if they were ever actually betrothed, but it was at least expected that Cersei would marry Rhaegar at some point. Her POVs have stated that clearly. Aerys changes his mind though (perhaps at the Tourney at Harrenhal?) and claims that Targaryens don't marry their servants. That slight to Tywin becomes rank betrayal in light of the Lannister children's parentage, which causes Tywin to turn on Aerys.

Sorry I can't produce page numbers and exact quotes atm. Don't have my books at hand.

I need to know where Tyrion has a purple eye. Green and black were all I've ever read.

Very interesting about Tywin being impotent, but Tywin and Joanna were first cousins anyways, so that's pretty damn close to incest.

Selmy states in ADWD that he did lust after her, and laments about the lack of First Night rights. So that alliance between Tywin and Aerys could be more than is hinted at, and this is a theory I've honestly never read about. Very interesting, but Tyrion's white hair is possible. His green eye suggests Tywin though.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I need to know where Tyrion has a purple eye. Green and black were all I've ever read.

It's from aGoT. Martin's first in-depth description of Tyrion makes him sound very Targaryen. Can't look it up at the moment.

Very interesting, but Tyrion's white hair is possible. His green eye suggests Tywin though.

He'd still be half-Lannister through Joanna; would explain his green eye.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Potential things I'm looking forward to:
  • Cersei's trial. She will obviously name Sir Robert Strong (undead Gregor Clegane) as her champion. I'd bet anything the Faith will name newly reformed Sandor Clegane as its champion. That will be an epic showdown.
  • Jaime strangling Cersei to death with his golden hand. He is her younger brother, after all.
  • Sansa learning court intrigue at the foot of the master, Littlefinger, and then using it against him when she learns the role he played in the fall of her family.
  • Davos finding Osha and Rickon on Skagos.
  • Arya returning to Westeros as a Faceless Man. Martin is turning her into an uber badass, though I'm not sure who she's going to kill.
  • Melisandra giving Jon Snow the Red God's "kiss of life"; Jon hanging his treacherous underlings; the fall of the Wall, and Jon leading a prolonged fallback while the Others march relentlessly south.
  • Bran marshalling an army of beasts to aid Jon somehow; probably as he retreats after the Wall falls.
  • The Boltons and Freys receiving their comeuppance. We get some indication at the end of aDwD that things are not working out for the Boltons, and with the way Freys are dying off, I bet old Walther will live just long enough to see his innumerable progeny snuffed out.
  • Jaime and Brienne meeting Lady Stoneheart.
  • Victarion putting the Iron Fleet (and the dragon horn) at Dany's service. That will clearly be her method for returning to Westeros. But why rush it? Would much rather have Dany camp out in a f*cking squalid slave city on Essos for another 2 books. /grumble
  • Finally learning what Varys and Illyrio's motivations are.
  • Tyrion and Jon becoming Dany's dragon riders, and burninating thousands of wights at the Trident. Being a half Targaryen warg, I'm certain Jon warg into a dragon at some point.
  • Bran channeling his namesake from the Age of Legends by rebuilding the Wall, perhaps with the aid of giants.
  • Tyrion reuniting with Tysha (the Sailor's Wife) at the Happy Port in Braavos.

Will add more as I think of them. In case that last point has you feeling optimistic, Martin has stated his vision for the ending is pretty bleak-- something like a cold wind blowing over endless tombstones. Saving Westeros will come at an incredible cost.
 
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mgriff

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Okay, since the Far North and the Wall are my favorite parts, I'd like to go on with the Nights King and Watch, and how it ties in with the dark side of the Starks.

The Starks have always, always been he epitome of good or white in this series. GRRM does not write that way as is evidenced by...every other character in the book. No one is good or evil, or black or white, it's just not that simple.

So, the exciting theory is that the Children of the Forest, are simply part of the Others who fled North of the Wall with the invasion of the Andals. The Others is not a name for the White Walkers, but the magic races in Westeros before the coming of the First Men and then the Andals. The Giants, White Walkers, Children of the Forest, et al. The series doesn't even bother distinguishing between them so I believe it was misinformation on the part of GRRM to call them the Others at the beginning. Mormont calls them White Walkers, not the Others.

We know the First Men fought with the Children and they smashed the land bridge with Dorne using some kind of magic. They also attempted something similar when the Andals came(Bronze Age FM, Iron Age Andals) and the result is the Neck after another attempted severance.

Now, the Stark motto is Winter is coming and the older Starks were called the Kings of Winter. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is also a saying seen throughout the novels.

What we know for sure is that the Septons attempted to rewrite the history of the pre-Andals since they did not know a great deal about it, and it's safe to assume that the official history is highly suspect. What is not highly suspect, is, Old Nan's tales.

"The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said, a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound the Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who rules Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”
No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we sleep tonight. He did not like the notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule."

Now she states that during the Long Night, the last time the White Walkers (read Sindhe of Ice) last came upon Westeros they simply destroyed everything until Bran(A Stark?) sought out the Children to help end the Long Night. Now unfortunately we never hear exactly what happened, but we know the Long Night ended and there were some kind of terms agreed which was known as the Pact. What happened after that was the establishment of the Night's Watch.

Sworn Brothers of the Night's Watch are those who swear their vows before a weirwood, so the Old Gods(read CotF). That is why Sam can open the Weirwood door under the first tower on the Wall.

Oh god there is so much to put here, I need more time. I know it isn't exactly coherent at this point but give me some time.
 
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mgriff

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Old Nan's stories

Book 1
Game of Thrones

The first Bran's chapter, he is going to see the execution.

He [Bran] remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

The same chapter, Bran talks to Eddard.


“He was a wildling,” Bran said. “They carry off women and sell them to the Others.”
His lord father smiled. “Old Nan has been telling you stories again."

The same chapter, Catelyn talks to Eddard.

“There are darker things beyond the Wall.” She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts. His smile was gentle. “You listen to too many of Old Nan’s stories.”

The second Bran's chapter, right before he sees Jaime and Cersei.

His father would be the Hand of the King, and they were going to live in the red castle at King’s Landing, the castle the Dragonlords had built. Old Nan said there were ghosts there, and dungeons where terrible things had been done, and dragon heads on the walls.

Same chapter, further on.

Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes.

The fourth Bran's chapter, he is paralyzed.


“It was just a lie,” he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dream. “I can’t fly. I can’t even run.”
“Crows are all liars,” Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. “I know a story about a crow."

“I hate your stupid stories.”
The old woman smiled at him toothlessly. “My stories? No, my little lord, not mine. The stories are, before me and after me, before you too.”
[...]
“I know a story about a boy who hated stories,” Old Nan said.
[...]

“I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder,” Old Nan said. “That was always your favorite.”
Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.
“That’s not my favorite,” he said. “My favorites were the scary ones.”
“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”
“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.
“The Others,” Old Nan agreed. “Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?”
“Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only...
Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”
Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.
“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds-”
The door opened with a bang, and Bran’s heart leapt up into his mouth in sudden fear, but it was only Maester Luwin, with Hodor looming in the stairway behind him.

The same chapter, Yoren tells that Benjen is missing.

All Bran could think of was Old Nan’s story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. “The children will help him,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!”

The fifth Eddard's chapter

“Dark wings, dark words,” Ned murmured. It was a proverb Old Nan had taught him as a boy.

The third Arya's chapter.

Huge stones had been set into the curving walls as steps, circling down and down, dark as the steps to hell that Old Nan used to tell them of.

The same chapter, further on, Arya talks to Eddard.


“A wizard,” said Ned, unsmiling. “Did he have a long white beard and tall pointed hat speckled with stars?”
“No! It wasn’t like Old Nan’s stories. He didn’t look like a wizard, but the fat one said he was.”

The third Sansa's chapter.

When the Knight of Flowers had spoken up, she’d been sure she was about to see one of Old Nan’s stories come to life.

The seventh Jon's chapter, two frozen bodies are brought to the Wall.

Unbidden, he thought back on the tales that Old Nan used to tell them, when he was a boy at Winterfell. He could almost hear her voice again, and the click-click-click of her needles. In that darkness, the Others came riding, she used to say, dropping her voice lower and lower. Cold and dead they were, and they hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every living creature with hot blood in its veins. Holdfasts and cities and kingdoms of men allfell before them, as they moved south on pale dead horses, leading hosts of the slain. They fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children...

The sixth Bran's chapter, Bran is talking to Robb.


"Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort, where the Boltons hang the skins of their enemies.”
“That’s just one of Old Nan’s stories,” Bran said. A note of doubt crept into his voice. “Isn’t it?”

The fifth Arya's chapter.

Old Nan used to tell stories of boys who stowed away on trading galleys and sailed off into all kinds of adventures.

The seventh Bran's chapter.


“There was a knight once who couldn’t see,” Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. “Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once.”
“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes.”

The same chapter, further on, in the crypts.


He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. “That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father’s father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark’s the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the ‘Hungry Wolf,’ because he was always at war. That’s a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father’s ships in grief. There’s Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that’s Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he’s Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he’d never faced a finer swordsman.” They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. “And there’s my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father’s brother.
They’re not supposed to have statues, that’s only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done.”

The same chapter, further on.


“Old Nan says the children knew the songs of the trees, that they could fly like birds and swim like fish and talk to the animals,” Bran said. “She says that they made music so beautiful that it made you cry like a little baby just to hear it.”
“And all this they did with magic,” Maester Luwin said, distracted.

I know some of it is not really relevant (wizards and knights and galleys), but I have listed all of it just in case.
 

mgriff

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Book 2
Clash of Kings

Chapter 4, Bran

Starks had wolf blood. Old Nan told him so. “Though it is stronger in some than in others,” she warned.

Chapter 6, Jon

“Aerion the Monstrous?” Jon knew that name. “The Prince Who Thought He Was a Dragon” was one of Old Nan’s more gruesome tales. His little brother Bran had loved it.

Chapter 7, Catelyn

And when at last Harrenhal stood complete, on the very day King Harren took up residence, Aegon the Conqueror had come ashore at King’s Landing. Catelyn could remember hearing Old Nan tell the story to her own children, back at Winterfell. “And King Harren learned that thick walls and high towers are small use against dragons,” the tale always ended. “For dragons fly.” Harren and all his line had perished in the fires that engulfed his monstrous fortress, and every house that held Harrenhal since had come to misfortune. Strong it might be, but it was a dark place, and cursed.

Chapter 9, Arya

She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood.

Chapter 14, Arya

Arya was remembering the stories Old Nan used to tell of Harrenhal. Evil King Harren had walled himself up inside, so Aegon unleashed his dragons and turned the castle into a pyre. Nan said that fiery spirits still haunted the blackened towers. Sometimes men went to sleep safe in their beds and were found dead in the morning, all burnt up.

Chapter 23, Jon

Jon remembered Old Nan’s tales of the savage folk who drank blood from human skulls.

The same chapter, further on

“Wildlings have invaded the realm before.” Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. “Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather’s grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard.”
“Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side . . . but the Night’s Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us?"

Chapter 26, Arya

She remembered Old Nan’s stories of the castle built on fear. Harren the Black had mixed human blood in the mortar, Nan used to say, dropping her voice so the children would need to lean close to hear, but Aegon’s dragons had roasted Harren and all his sons within their great walls of stone.

Chapter 30, Arya

Old Nan used to tell of the giants who lived beyond the Wall.

Chapter 33, Catelyn

Storm’s End emerged like a dream of stone while wisps of pale mist raced across the field, flying from the sun on wings of wind. Morning ghosts, she had heard Old Nan call them once, spirits returning to their graves.

Chapter 35, Bran

Old Nan told scary stories of beastlings and shapechangers sometimes. In the stories they were always evil.

Chapter 46, Bran

Torrhen’s Square was under attack by some monstrous war chief named Dagmer Cleftjaw. Old Nan said he couldn’t be killed, that once a foe had cut his head in two with an axe, but Dagmer was so fierce he’d just pushed the two halves back together and held them until they healed up.

Chapter 47, Arya

In Old Nan’s stories about men who were given magic wishes by a grumkin, you had to be especially careful with the third wish, because it was the last.

Chapter 64, Arya

I’d just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan’s stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos.
 

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Old Nan's stories

Book 3

Storm of Swords

Jon, p.142 (out of 788)

In Old Nan’s stories, giants were outsized men who lived in colossal castles, fought with huge swords, and walked about in boots a boy could hide in.

The same chapter, further on

Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor’s sake.

Bran, p. 232

“There’s people,” Bran told her. “The Umbers are mostly east of the kingsroad, but they graze their sheep in the high meadows in summer. There are Wulls west of the mountains along the Bay of Ice, Harclays back behind us in the hills, and Knotts and Liddles and Norreys and even some Flints up here in the high places.” His father’s mother’s mother had been a Flint of the mountains. Old Nan once said that it was her blood in him that made Bran such a fool for climbing before his fall. She had died years and years and years before he was born, though, even before his father had been born.

The same chapter, futher on, Meera is telling the story about the knight of the Laughing tree.

“Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces,” said Bran. “Was he green?” In Old Nan’s stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn’t see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. “I bet the old gods sent him.”

Bran, p. 377

“They were afraid of the wildlings,” said Bran. “Wildlings come over the Wall or through the mountains, to raid and steal and carry off women. If they catch you, they make your skull into a cup to drink blood, Old Nan used to say. The Night’s Watch isn’t so strong as it was in Brandon’s day or Queen Alysanne’s, so more get through.

The same chapter, further on

“There’s a causeway. A stone causeway, hidden under the water. We could walk out.” They could, anyway; he would have to ride on Hodor’s back, but at least he’d stay dry that way.
The Reeds exchanged a look. “How do you know that?” asked Jojen. “Have you been here before, my prince?”
“No. Old Nan told me. The holdfast has a golden crown, see?” He pointed across the lake. You could see patches of flaking gold paint up around the crenellations. “Queen Alysanne slept there, so they painted the merlons gold in her honor.”

The same chapter, further on


“There are abandoned castles along the Wall, I’ve heard,” Jojen answered. “Fortresses built by the Night’s Watch but now left empty. One of them may give us our way through.”
The ghost castles, Old Nan had called them.

Jon, p. 389

"This is Queenscrown.”
Across the lake, the tower was black again, a dim shape dimly seen. “A queen lived there?” asked Ygritte.
“A queen stayed there for a night.” Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. “Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she’d worn when she spent the night among them.”
“I have never seen a dragon.”
“No one has. The last dragons died a hundred years ago or more. But this was before that.”
“Queen Alysanne, you say?”
“Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate.”

Bran, p. 515

The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan’s scariest stories. It was here that Night’s King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the ‘prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark.
All that had happened hundreds and thousands of years ago, to be sure, and some maybe never happened at all.

The same chapter, further on.

The Wall could look like stone, all grey and pitted, but then the clouds would break and the sun would hit it differently, and all at once it would transform, and stand there white and blue and glittering. It was the end of the world, Old Nan always said. On the other side were monsters and giants and ghouls, but they could not pass so long as the Wall stood strong.

The same chapter, further on

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the
man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”
[...]
Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule.

The same chapter, further on

The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only cat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. “It was not for murder that the gods cursed him,” Old Nan said, “nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive.”

The same chapter, furthe on

Outside the wind was sending armies of dead leaves marching across the courtyards to scratch faintly at the doors and windows. The sounds made him think of Old Nan’s stories. He could almost hear the ghostly sentinels calling to each other atop the Wall and winding their ghostly warhorns.

The same chapter, further on

He remembered what Old Nan had said of Mad Axe, how he took his boots off and prowled the castle halls barefoot in the dark, with never a sound to tell you where he was except for the drops of blood that fell from his axe and his elbows
and the end of his wet red beard. Or maybe it wasn’t Mad Axe at all, maybe it was the thing that came in the night. The ‘prentice boys all saw it, Old Nan said, but afterward when they told their Lord Commander every description had been different. And three died within the year, and the fourth went mad, and a hundred years later when the thing had come again, the ‘prentice boys were seen shambling along behind it, all in chains.
[...]
Mad Axe had been a big man in Old Nan’s story, and the thing that came in the night had been monstrous.

The same chapter, further on, they meet Sam

“Was he green?” Bran wanted to know. “Did he have antlers?”
The fat man was confused. “The elk?”
“Coldhands,” said Bran impatiently. “The green men ride on elks, Old Nan used to say. Sometimes they have antlers too.”

The same chapter, further on

Beyond the gates the monsters live, and the giants and the ghouls, he remembered Old Nan saying, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong.

Sansa, p. 567

In Old Nan’s stories the grumkins crafted magic things that could make a wish come true.


Feast for Crows

Arya, p. 71 (out of 588)

The Titan of Braavos. Old Nan had told them stories of the Titan back in Winterfell. He was a giant as tall as a mountain, and whenever Braavos stood in danger he would wake with fire in his eyes, his rocky limbs grinding and groaning as he waded out into the sea to smash the enemies. “The Braavosi feed him on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls,” Nan would end.

Arya, p. 258


She remembered a tale she had heard from Old Nan, about how sometimes during a long
winter men who’d lived beyond their years would announce that they were going hunting. And their daughters would weep and their sons would turn their faces to the fire, she could hear Old Nan saying, but no one would stop them, or ask what game they meant to hunt, with the snows so deep and the cold wind howling.
 

mgriff

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Old Nan's stories

Book 5
Dance with Dragons

Bran, p. 73 (out of 916)


Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond
the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she
would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall
stands strong and the men of the Night’s Watch are true.

Bran, p. 399


“Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once
he had returned to his own skin. “Some girl. I felt her.”
“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her
remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow.
A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.”
“Do all the birds have singers in them?”
“All,” Lord Brynden said. “It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by
raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and
so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never
shared their skin.”
Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered.

Jon, p. 408


The wind was gusting, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy.

Jon, p. 455


Wun Wun was very little like the giants in Old Nan’s tales, those huge savage creatures who mixed blood into their morning porridge and devoured whole bulls, hair and hide and horns.

Arya, p. 526


Old Nan had told her tales of Hardhome, back at Winterfell
when she had still been Arya Stark. “After the big battle where the King-Beyond-the-Wall was killed, the
wildlings ran away, and this woods witch said that if they went to Hardhome, ships would come and
carry them away to someplace warm. But no ships came, except these two Lyseni pirates, Goodheart
and Elephant, that had been driven north by a storm. They dropped anchor off Hardhome to make
repairs, and saw the wildlings, but there were thousands and they didn’t have room for all of them, so
they said they’d just take the women and the children. The wildlings had nothing to eat, so the men sent
out their wives and daughters, but as soon as the ships were out to sea, the Lyseni drove them below
and roped them up. They meant to sell them all in Lys. Only then they ran into another storm and the
ships were parted. The Goodheart was so damaged her captain had no choice but to put in here, but the
Elephant may have made it back to Lys. The Lyseni at Pynto’s think that she’ll return with more ships.
The price of slaves is rising, they said, and there are thousands more women and children at
Hardhome.”

Jon, p. 563


The snowfall was light today, a thin scattering of flakes dancing in the air, but the wind was
blowing from the east along the Wall, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan used to
tell.

Theon, p. 585


Theon would have laughed if he had dared. He remembered tales Old Nan had told them
of storms that raged for forty days and forty nights, for a year, for ten years … storms that buried castles
and cities and whole kingdoms under a hundred feet of snow.
 

mgriff

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Okay, this is all of Old Nan's tales in the books. We have no idea how old she is, but she was around when Eddard's father was a babe. She's just highly suspect to always be in Winterfell and tell the truth through her stories to the children of the Starks. Long story short the Starks are and always have been allies of the CotF and the White Walkers.

They were the condition upon the ending of the Long Night and the signing of the Pact. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell and the Night's Watch existed to keep men out of the Beyond the Wall, to protect the older races. We know the Cotf are in every weirwood as evidenced by the time in their hovel north of the Wall. The First Men used to make blood sacrifices in front of weirwoods as evidenced in a dream. Bran eats the paste to open his third eye? Jojen disappears? Blood sacrifice? I donno.

Now, the vows for the Night's Watch fundamentally changed after teh Night's King and his supposed White Walker gf. The Night's Watch turned from it's true purpose, and the seven then began to infiltrate the NW. The Wall will only stand while the NW is true, and since they lost their way with teh 13th(magic number) commander of the NW, The Night's King, that wall will be falling in the coming books.

Craster's sons are White Walkers, so do the CotF make White Walkers to protect themselves? Ned says the Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years. Why did Benjen join? Is that the fate of the third Stark men? Honor their Pact with the CotF?

Still not concise I know, but it's very very difficult for me to tie all of this up in a short amount of time.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Very interesting theory, griff. Like most of the prophetic sequences, Old Nan's stories seem to be one of the few reliable sources in the series.

We never learn what happened to her. It's simply assumed that she died when Ramsey sacked Winterfell.
 

mgriff

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All credit for Old Nan's tales compilation goes to Cap Ou Pas Cap of the Heresy thread at westeros.org. It was something I was just a part of. I by no means came to all of these conclusions on my own.

I've been in that thread since its inception so it may make more sense in my ehad than I'm able to give justice in words. I've read 20 threads of it so it's all kind of meshed together in my mind. I'll try and find an abridged version in one of the countless threads.

All we know is that she was held at the Dreadfort and Theon thinks she's dead. As GRRM said, unless you see the body in a POV, assume they are not dead. Davos is the one that comes to mind. Jon isn't dead, but he could also be The Prince that was promised, since his attacker was crying (salt), and his wounds were smoking because of the cold. Born of smoek and salt? Yet Danny was as well, so GRRM leaves several options for misdirection.
 
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IrishinTN

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I was wondering if Martin had Jon switch to his wolf before he died. The problem there is that he would have to then find a new human host.

And if Ramsey doesn't meet his maker soon I may drive to Martins house and make him kill The Bastard.

I don't think i buy the Tywin/Cersei/Jaime stuff. There would just be too many witnesses.
 

mgriff

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I was wondering if Martin had Jon switch to his wolf before he died. The problem there is that he would have to then find a new human host.

And if Ramsey doesn't meet his maker soon I may drive to Martins house and make him kill The Bastard.

I don't think i buy the Tywin/Cersei/Jaime stuff. There would just be too many witnesses.

GRRM has said that unless you see the dead body in a POV assume he's not dead. I don't think he can kill Jon Snow yet because of the major implications he has in the Song of Ice and Fire. He is the combination of the Targaryen(Fire) and Stark(Ice). Even when we do see dead bodies like Cat, she comes back as UnCat.
 

ojo_223

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Bout damn time you guys came around to this series. I have been reading it since 98 and even posted about it on here a few years back in a "what are you reading" thread, or something similar. All I got back then was crickets. The power of tv is amazing.

I don't think there is any doubt that jon is rhaegar and lyannas. At this point if he is not I will be really disappointed. Course it would be like martin to just kill him off.

I loved the series. . . .until book four. Was never a fan of splitting up the characters. And then book five (which won all kinds of awards, I know) was a huge disappointment. Especially after waiting ten years to hear the story of those characters. And then. . .nothing really. Dany turns into a slut, tyrion spends his whole time riding a pig, jon gets shafted. The best character in the book was wyman manderly.

Martin has to do better than that, if he lives long enough to write book 6.

The first season on HBO was pretty good. Season 2 sucked. Not even close to the book. Why change asha's name? Blackwater episode was good.

Not sure if I buy the lannister-targ thing. Maybe jaime and cersei, but I think tyrion is tywins.

Good to see there are other fans. Mgriff thanks for the posts on nans stories that had to take a while.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The first season on HBO was pretty good. Season 2 sucked. Not even close to the book. Why change asha's name? Blackwater episode was good.

Because it's too close to Osha. The show's confusing enough for people who haven't read the books.
 

ojo_223

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Meh, isn't it yalla or something in the series? Sounds to close too tyrions alias od yollo in book 5. Just keep it as written. Didn't care for the actress that played her either. Most of the cast is pretty good, but I read asha as a young gina gershon type. Robbs love interest not even close to the book. Tywin having arya as cupbearer? Robb confronting jaime? I guess it made for good tv, but not even close.
 
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