Notre Dame Files Lawsuit Over Obamacare

FLDomer

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Freedom is kind of a big deal in America.

So is freedom of Religion.

Its supposed to be a University of higher learning. Not a convent.

It is a University of higher learning founded on the faith and morals of a particular religion....like the employees, if you dont like it you have the FREEDOM not to go there and be a part of it.
 

Kak7304

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If everyone that ND employs agrees with this stance. Then nobody will use ND insurance to buy contraceptive pills.

However you should still give people the right to make that decision. Freedom is kind of a big deal in America.

In no way, shape, or form are they denying employees the right to use any of these medical services. ND is a religious institution (IBM is not) and does not wish to pay for services they deem morally reprehensible.

Also, you point out the importance of freedom in America. By forcing ND to pay for something they disagree with fundamentally, the government is infringing upon their collective right to religious freedom, which is the opposition of these services. The USA is not a communist nation and our people are allowed to work wherever and for whomever they choose. No one is forced to work for ND and can choose to work somewhere else if they disagree with the insurance coverage. Also, the employees could purchase supplemental insurance, purchase the medication on their own, or find some other avenue if they wish to purchase these services.
 

BGIF

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Most news organizations appear to have placed this in their poltical instead of legal sections, and do appear to be treating it as a R vs D battle not legally or constitutionally driven battle

At the time I made the post, MSNBC was the only outlet I saw that didn't carry the story as Breaking News with at least a Front Page intro. I had to use the search function on the MSNBC site to find any mention of the lawsuit.

I read about a dozen articles on the story, all but MSNBC, dealt with the religious freedom issue as does this "Breaking News Story" printed in the Local ((Highlighted on their website) News Section of the Washington Post. Feel free to do a search of the article for the words "Republican" or "Democrat". I didn't find any mention there which was what I found in all the "news" articles I read except the MSBNC article. I don't consider joe blow's blog a news organization.


Md., Va. governors define and scuff the boundaries of their parties - The Washington Post


The Seattle Times posted their article in the Health Section again without spinning the story as a political issue.

Health | Contraception mandate outrages religious groups | Seattle Times Newspaper

I can list more but the Washington Post and Seattle Times while on opposite sides of the nation share political philosophies. Both are major news organizations yet neither made the story about Rs versus Ds. MSNBC devoted almost half their article to an aisle dispute.
 

IrishJayhawk

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My understanding is that ND would not have to pay for the services. The insurance company would.

Hormonal birth control is a women's health issue. It reduces the risk of various types of cancers and helps women with polycystic ovarian syndrome to regulate their menstrual cycle. In those cases, it actually increases the likelihood that a woman wanting to get pregnant will be able to.

The IBM example wasn't great, but what about a religious institution who doesn't believe in science or surgery? Can they offer insurance, but only allow pay for prescriptions of prayer? How about those that believe addiction or depression is imaginary (I believe it's Scientologists who don't believe in postpartum depression)? No Prozac?

Some of you may believe those things. That's fine. But, take the scenario to its logical extreme...I think it can be a slippery slope.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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My understanding is that ND would not have to pay for the services. The insurance company would.

ND and most other Catholic institutions objecting to this policy have rejected that "concession" as illusory; the cost of those services will be passed on ND, so they end up paying for it either way.

Hormonal birth control is a women's health issue. It reduces the risk of various types of cancers and helps women with polycystic ovarian syndrome to regulate their menstrual cycle. In those cases, it actually increases the likelihood that a woman wanting to get pregnant will be able to.

The Church's opposition to birth control isn't based primarily on its alleged health benefits and risks, so how is this relevant?

The IBM example wasn't great, but what about a religious institution who doesn't believe in science or surgery? Can they offer insurance, but only allow pay for prescriptions of prayer? How about those that believe addiction or depression is imaginary? No Prozac?

Forcing a religious institution to pay for anything it believes to be immoral is a violation of the Establishment Clause. No one is forced to work for a religious institution.

Some of you may believe those things. That's fine.

Apparently it's only "fine" as long as it conforms to the government's views of morality.

But, take the scenario to its logical extreme...I think it can be a slippery slope.

Freedom of contract and association are indeed slippery slopes. How did this country, nay, humanity, manage to survive prior to the birth of Progressivism?
 

Kak7304

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My understanding is that ND would not have to pay for the services. The insurance company would.

Hormonal birth control is a women's health issue. It reduces the risk of various types of cancers and helps women with polycystic ovarian syndrome to regulate their menstrual cycle. In those cases, it actually increases the likelihood that a woman wanting to get pregnant will be able to.

The IBM example wasn't great, but what about a religious institution who doesn't believe in science or surgery? Can they offer insurance, but only allow pay for prescriptions of prayer? How about those that believe addiction or depression is imaginary (I believe it's Scientologists who don't believe in postpartum depression)? No Prozac?

Some of you may believe those things. That's fine. But, take the scenario to its logical extreme...I think it can be a slippery slope.

I believe the University is ok with paying for contraceptive medications when they are used to treat PCOS, endometriosis, etc. When I was a student there a few years ago, I remember the health center had a policy where they wouldn't prescribe contraceptives for contraceptive use but would if they were deemed a medical necessity for treatment of disease.
 

IrishJayhawk

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ND and most other Catholic institutions objecting to this policy have rejected that "concession" as illusory; the cost of those services will be passed on ND, so they end up paying for it either way.

There is evidence on both sides, but many believe the cost will be neutral.
FactCheck.org : Cloudy Contraception Costs

The Church's opposition to birth control isn't based primarily on its alleged health benefits and risks, so how is this relevant?

It is relevant in the same way that some other religious sects might not allow important care that you deem to be your right. If you think that the Scientologists should not be forced to cover anything related to postpartum depression (or pick another related example), then you're being intellectually consistent.

Forcing a religious institution to pay for anything it believes to be immoral is a violation of the Establishment Clause. No one is forced to work for a religious institution.

Many of those institutions also receive federal dollars. And the government does things with my tax dollars that I find morally reprehensible. Why can't I stop the death penalty?

Apparently it's only "fine" as long as it conforms to the government's views of morality.

No...it's fine if it's intellectually consistent.

Freedom of contract and association are indeed slippery slopes. How did this country, nay, humanity, manage to survive prior to the birth of Progressivism?

Not sure where the snark came from. I'm not attacking...I'm asking you questions.
 
B

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What happens if IBM sees this and decides they don't believe in cancer. So they aren't going to cover cancer drugs or treatments?

You just cannot let individual institutions to get that deep into your own individual rights. It will just open the door for institutions to cut corners out from under their employees.

No, you can let them do that, and EVERY EMPLOYEE WOULD LEAVE. It's really that simple.

And comparing cancer to contraception is just ludicrous. You almost deserve a neg rep.
 

aaronb

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No, you can let them do that, and EVERY EMPLOYEE WOULD LEAVE. It's really that simple.

And comparing cancer to contraception is just ludicrous. You almost deserve a neg rep.

Maybe not the best example. However in theory the university could

1. Choose not to offer HIV and AIDS medications because they feel it's a homosexual disease
2. Not offer coverage for Lung or Liver cancers. Because they don't approve of smoking or drinking

It's just a slippery slope to allow individual institutions to pick and choose what they feel they should cover. Especially institutions that use religious shielding to avoid paying taxes.

I still love the university. I just don't like to see them pull political stunts in this day and age.
 

Whiskeyjack

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There is evidence on both sides, but many believe the cost will be neutral.
FactCheck.org : Cloudy Contraception Costs

It's the principal of paying for something the Church finds morally reprehensible; not the cost itself.

It is relevant in the same way that some other religious sects might not allow important care that you deem to be your right. If you think that the Scientologists should not be forced to cover anything related to postpartum depression (or pick another related example), then you're being intellectually consistent.

I do, in fact, think that Scientologists should be able to structure their compensation packages any way that they want. We're only having this argument because it became socially acceptable for the government to mandate what insurance carriers had to cover many years ago.

Many of those institutions also receive federal dollars.

Great argument for the Feds getting out of post-secondary education.

And the government does things with my tax dollars that I find morally reprehensible. Why can't I stop the death penalty?

I agree. The Feds should stop trying to fund and regulate all sorts of things.

Not sure where the snark came from. I'm not attacking...I'm asking you questions.

Apologies for jumping the gun. I read some hypocrisy into your post which apparently wasn't there.
 

IrishJayhawk

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No, you can let them do that, and EVERY EMPLOYEE WOULD LEAVE. It's really that simple.

And comparing cancer to contraception is just ludicrous. You almost deserve a neg rep.

But Jehovah's Witnesses don't allow any blood transfusions. Should they be allowed to deny that coverage?
 

IrishJayhawk

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I do, in fact, think that Scientologists should be able to structure their compensation packages any way that they want.

It is my opinion (one that is, perhaps, incorrect) that many people arguing your side of the issue would not necessarily agree.


Apologies for jumping the gun. I read some hypocrisy into your post which apparently wasn't there.

No worries. Personally, I think it's a pretty complex thing...especially if the insurance company pays for it and the result is cost neutral. No cost to the company (because of fewer cases of various forms of cancer, PCOS complications, etc.) means no cost to pass along.
 

IrishLax

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I really hate that ND is going this route. I just don't understand how offering medical coverage to someone who MAY OR MAY NOT take advantage of it. Is somehow infringing on ND's right to religious freedom?

It sounds much more like ND is trying to impose THEIR religious views on the people who work for the university.

Terrible message and an awful precedent to set.

There are so many issues with the logic of this post and your subsequent posts.... sigh....

1. You hate that ND is going this route, which is fine because you're entitled to your opinion. But you're saying this is a "terrible message" when the majority of America supports the stance ND is taking and has previously taken a similar stance. 28 states total have sued, countless groups both religious and non-religious have sued, and a large majority of the population in polling dislikes the bill for whatever reason. So, by definition of the word "precedent," ND is not setting any kind of precedent at all. If anything, they are following precedent set by others.

2. The concept of imposing religious views on employees of the University is ludicrous. It's a private University, not a publicly traded company or government office or public school. So it can make whatever rules it wants and if you don't like them go work/enroll somewhere else. When you sign up to work at Notre Dame you know exactly what health benefits you are getting in your terms of employment. Don't like it? Cool, it's your choice as a free American to go work somewhere else.

3. The idea that ND should be mandated to endorse something that, as a private Catholic university, they do not religiously approve us is insane. At it's logical conclusion, that's no different than saying Jehovah's witnesses should be forced to take blood transfusions because it will save lives. Or, as a more mild example, it's no different than saying Orthodox Jews running a food bank should have to accept donations of pork products. The 1st amendment fundamentally protects this right.

4. Don't even get me started on how many issues there are with the "IBM doesn't believe in cancer" crap. For starters, IBM isn't religious; is publicly traded; is a corporation; and cancer is a life-threatening disease NOT a completely optional medicine. You can't "not support the use of cancer" like you can "not support the use of birth control." Also, you should know that Notre Dame does support the use of contraceptive for medical reasons (polycystic ovarian syndrome, etc.). There is literally nothing truly "medical" about birth control when it is used just to have sex without creating a baby... which is a whole 'nother can of worms I'd rather not open.
 

IrishLax

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Maybe not the best example. However in theory the university could

1. Choose not to offer HIV and AIDS medications because they feel it's a homosexual disease
2. Not offer coverage for Lung or Liver cancers. Because they don't approve of smoking or drinking

It's just a slippery slope to allow individual institutions to pick and choose what they feel they should cover. Especially institutions that use religious shielding to avoid paying taxes.

I still love the university. I just don't like to see them pull political stunts in this day and age.

You really don't get it, do you? Everything you have listed is a life threatening disease; and companies/institutions ALREADY "pick and choose" what they cover to a degree. Things like smokers paying higher premiums, pre-existing conditions not being covered, etc. etc. At my girlfriend's job only certain types of birth control are covered at all... and those only partially... and this company is a private advertising firm with zero religious affiliation of any type.

Birth control is NOT MEDICATION FOR A DISEASE. And it DOES NOT ADDRESS LIFE THREATENING CONDITIONS. In the rare cases where birth control IS used to combat a condition, the University supports and pays for it. I know this because two of my classmates at Notre Dame got birth control through the ND insurane.

Lastly, IT IS NOT A POLITICAL STUNT WHEN 28 STATES AND THOUSANDS OF CORPORATIONS ARE ALREADY FILING THE SAME LAWSUITS.
 

Kak7304

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Maybe not the best example. However in theory the university could

1. Choose not to offer HIV and AIDS medications because they feel it's a homosexual disease
2. Not offer coverage for Lung or Liver cancers. Because they don't approve of smoking or drinking

It's just a slippery slope to allow individual institutions to pick and choose what they feel they should cover. Especially institutions that use religious shielding to avoid paying taxes.

I still love the university. I just don't like to see them pull political stunts in this day and age.

All of your examples deal with the treatment of disease, something the University is not fighting against. They are against contraceptive in its use as an optional, preventative measure against pregnancy. They are not opposing the treatment of any disease, including ones that require the same medications used for contraception. They would still pay for obstetric costs for pregnancy out of wedlock, STD treatment, etc. even though these things are a result of a behavior that conflicts with Catholic values. You are failing to account for the optional, unnecessary aspect of contraception in all of your examples and arguments.
 

aaronb

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Lastly, IT IS NOT A POLITICAL STUNT WHEN 28 STATES AND THOUSANDS OF CORPORATIONS ARE ALREADY FILING THE SAME LAWSUITS.

It absolutely is a political stunt. It's a way to undermine legislation that has been passed by the Gov't.
 

Whiskeyjack

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It absolutely is a political stunt. It's a way to undermine legislation that has been passed by the Gov't.

So if the CIA stuffs you in a van tomorrow and water boards you under suspicion of supporting domestic terrorist activity, and you sue for your release, then you're engaged in a "political stunt"? Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act, so by your definition, any attempt by an individual or an organization to prevent its enforcement against them would be a "political stunt", no?

This pisses you off because you're a liberal who supports the policy being opposed. Your inability to understand the religious liberty concerns at stake here is really saddening, but not surprising.

Edit: And if you think ND is doing this to make a political statement, reread Jenkin's statement on the first page. The man went out of his way to emphasize that ND is simply trying to protect it's own right of conscience, and that it doesn't oppose the government's provision of such services.
 
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95NDAlumNM

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They are paying for insurance not contraceptives. What I use the insurance for should be up to me not them. This is like saying that my aunt who gave me an Amazon.com gift ceritificate paid for the gun I got. She paid for the gift card. I choose to use that on a gun, or a book, or music. if they do not want me to use the insurance as I want to then they should just not provide insurance to their employees. Just like if my aunt does not want me to use the gift card on a gun then she should not buy me the gift card.
 

BobD

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The government should not be regulating businesses or organizations and their health insurance. Their (The Govt's.) argument would be that they are trying to protect citizens but that argument doesn't hold much water while they continue to profit from taxes on cigarettes, alcohol and fossil fuel polution.
 

Whiskeyjack

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They are paying for insurance not contraceptives. What I use the insurance for should be up to me not them. This is like saying that my aunt who gave me an Amazon.com gift ceritificate paid for the gun I got. She paid for the gift card. I choose to use that on a gun, or a book, or music. if they do not want me to use the insurance as I want to then they should just not provide insurance to their employees. Just like if my aunt does not want me to use the gift card on a gun then she should not buy me the gift card.

What if your Aunt was strongly opposed to gun ownership... should she be allowed to give you a gift card which can't be used to purchase a firearm? Is it OK for the government to mandate that all gift cards be usable for the purchase of firearms?
 

no.1IrishFan

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It absolutely is a political stunt. It's a way to undermine legislation that has been passed by the Gov't.

Your posts become increasingly unintelligent as you go. Either you don't actually understand the issue being discussed or you lack the ability to think critically about it. Whichever it is, please just stop posting. Thanks.
 

Black Irish

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Let's say an organization covered in their insurance benefits a skin-lightening medical procedure. Then let's say that a black employee underwent this procedure and issued a public statement saying that he did so because he figured he'd be more likely to get ahead in the company if he looked more white. Do you think that the organization would be able to deflect the monumental public relations nightmare by simple stating, "it was the insurance that paid for it, not us"?

I can just see some pundit calling Notre Dame a bunch of hypocrites the first time one of their employees goes on record saying she used her ND insurance coverage to have an abortion. This stuff becomes political whether you like it or not. UND needs to fight this not just to preserve their Catholic integrity, but also to be vigilant against the government constantly trying to nudge religious groups into getting with the (Progressive) program against their will.
 

Rhode Irish

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I do not want to get too far into this discussion, just because the complexity of some of these issues and the amount of passion that people have about them.

I will just say that I am in favor of Health Care reform in a general sense, although I don't believe that what is referred to as "Obamacare" goes quite far enough. On the other hand, I respect Notre Dame's position here, along with other institutions that honestly feel they cannot comply with the law and stay true to their core philosophies and beliefs.

There really isn't a perfect solution to the problem as long as we have this absurd employer-centered healthcare system, which if we started over from scratch tomorrow would never be the model we would choose. There will have to be an awkward solution to this issue for moral objectors while we still have this stupid system in place, possibly by allowing employers to opt-out of certain types of coverages and having affected employees create a separate pool to buy that coverage.

Anyways, just wanted to offer my support of the ND action in light of the fact that I am probably the most liberal poster on this board based on what I've read here. (As a side note, the idea that I could be the most liberal person anywhere is still strange to me, as most people I know personally and professionally come in well left of me. I guess that may be because I've lived my entire life in northeast cities, but I honestly have not met more than a handful of educated conservatives in my life. Interesting to hear from some here.)
 

WaveDomer

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If birth control would save money, why haven't any insurance companies been doing this already to maximize profit?
 

Woneone

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What if your Aunt was strongly opposed to gun ownership... should she be allowed to give you a gift card which can't be used to purchase a firearm? Is it OK for the government to mandate that all gift cards be usable for the purchase of firearms?

You already know the reply, "Yea, but what if your employer told you that your pay check was only to be spent on X?"

And the circular argument continues. I see both points. On one hand I don't like the idea of my employer picking and choosing some of my benefits based on their moral beliefs (I know, we're talking about a religious institution, which adds in a whole different can of worms), but I also hate the idea of Government putting it's nose where it doesn't belong (when they banned smoking from public bars in Ohio, I about lost my mind).

This is just a no win situation for the administration. They are doing it for all the right reasons (from their point of view), but the perception will be that they are against women's rights, forcing their beliefs, yada yada.

Personally, I fault the churches dated stance on contraception and their unwillingness, or to be more specific, their refusal based on infallability, to change their beliefs.

But, I guess the plan will still cover Viagra, so that's a win :)
 

BobD

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People have the right to choose which companies they work for or which organizations they choose to be affiliated with, those businesses and organizations should have the right to offer compensation or beneits of their choosing. We are slowly becoming what we are suppose to be against.

I do however think its a very interesting debate how religious organizations, on one hand want to fight to maintain their religious freedom, but on the other hand continually lobby lawmakers and try to presuade voters to enforce their beliefs upon everyone.
 

tommyIRISH23

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This is the most ridiculous, and offensive government intrusion into the lives of its citizens the US has ever seen. It is a step towards socialized medicine. The Obama Administration, which played this very well, manipulated a very sensitive issue, womens rights, and crafted a plan that painted birth control as an entitlement (some media pundits compared this to the civil rights movement of the 60s) to force employers to provide birth control to its employees. But, where does it end? This opens the flood gates for many other types of reforms leading to a ridiculous "entitlement" debate about everything else people feel they are "owed".

This has to get shot down. Btw, before my gf and I get on our feet neither of us had health insurance. She was getting birth control for $19 a month. Thats like 75 cents a day per month.

Its amazing how the "left" media has spun this out of control to portray the issues as republicans are trying to strip women of their rights. I got into a argument with a moron in class that tried to convince me that conservatives want to reverse roe v. wade, and ban all contraception. People like that make me believe that we should have to take a test on the issues inorder to vote.

The "left" media is absolutely out of control. Look at the Trayvon Martin case. NBC was editing 911 tapes, calling Zimmerman white, editing videotape so that you couldn't see Zimmermans injuries...what the hell is going on in this country? Mainstream media is worse than the tabloids.
 

Downinthebend

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It absolutely is a political stunt. It's a way to undermine legislation that has been passed by the Gov't.

Its as much as a political stunt as they had Obama come in during 2007 or 2008

Why is the government even telling a private religious group what they can or can not do with regard to health care?

This is interesting to me, some people in my school don't think ND is Catholic in most senses of the word. I wonder what that person will say to this.
 
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