Yet another coaching thread

MeanGreen

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24 hours later and the threads are still bashing our coaches. Not that they don't deserve it, but how anyone outside of God can predict failure for this coach is beyond me.

First I think people need to be realistic and honest. Stoops, Saban, or Meyer ain't coming. We are not going to bend that much (juco's, academics, weaker schedule, etc). Secondly the second we over pay for one of these guys we become like everyone else and every media outlet will be all over us like white on rice. Trading football glory for integrity is what will be said.

Second the three amigo listed above didn't succeed in their first year and have not been Rockne, Leahy or Ara. Stoops was 7 - 5 in year 1, lost his bowl game and is 5 - 6 in bowl games. He was 8 - 5 last year with a veteran team. Saban was mediocre at best at MSU 6-5-1 his first year. At LSU he was didn't win the NC till year 4 and had 2 three loss season one 4 loss season and one five loss season. Was 7 - 6 year one at Alabama and lost to Louisiana Monroe in week 11 at home. Meyer has had the most success and at his current gig was 9 - 3 in year one and won the NC in year 2. Have to say it though he has questionable character and not sure his type of players get in to ND.

Third and finally. I am not sure how Kelly and Co. will turn out. I can honestly say I do not know if the will turn it around. No one knows, I don't care what you say who you know at ND or in college football. Of the last three successful ND coaches Ara, Devine, and Holtz. Only Ara had a great first year(9-1) and he slipped a little his second year(7-2-1). USC was a monkey on his back his entire career. Devine was 8 - 3. His team had the knack for losing to teams they shouldn't, not Navy but others. Lou was 5 - 6 outside of Alabama (18) and the loses were by 5 or less points. He succeed once he got his players (Rice, Rocket, Waters) on offense and a great D coordinator (Alvarez).

We do know this. The team is similar to what Ara and Lou took over. Used to losing and not having talent in the places needed. Lou needed offensive talent to run his offense. Ara just needed to move people into a position they could contribute. Both needed to install confidence and a winning attitude. Kelly has to do the same. Get some players on D, install confidence, and get them to believe they can and will win every game.

What I did not like from yesterday game was two plays. The touchdown before the half and the long pass. Our players give up on those plays. The assumed the play was over the Navy player couldn't or wouldn't make a play. Navy kids never give up. Remember, the men playing for Navy have ability and brains. You do not get a commission to the academy without those attributes. We did not lose to a 2 - 8 Syracuse team or a Div II school. These kids will give 100% every play every game no matter who the opponent or the score.
 

phgreek

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24 hours later and the threads are still bashing our coaches. Not that they don't deserve it, but how anyone outside of God can predict failure for this coach is beyond me.

First I think people need to be realistic and honest. Stoops, Saban, or Meyer ain't coming. We are not going to bend that much (juco's, academics, weaker schedule, etc). Secondly the second we over pay for one of these guys we become like everyone else and every media outlet will be all over us like white on rice. Trading football glory for integrity is what will be said.

Second the three amigo listed above didn't succeed in their first year and have not been Rockne, Leahy or Ara. Stoops was 7 - 5 in year 1, lost his bowl game and is 5 - 6 in bowl games. He was 8 - 5 last year with a veteran team. Saban was mediocre at best at MSU 6-5-1 his first year. At LSU he was didn't win the NC till year 4 and had 2 three loss season one 4 loss season and one five loss season. Was 7 - 6 year one at Alabama and lost to Louisiana Monroe in week 11 at home. Meyer has had the most success and at his current gig was 9 - 3 in year one and won the NC in year 2. Have to say it though he has questionable character and not sure his type of players get in to ND.

Third and finally. I am not sure how Kelly and Co. will turn out. I can honestly say I do not know if the will turn it around. No one knows, I don't care what you say who you know at ND or in college football. Of the last three successful ND coaches Ara, Devine, and Holtz. Only Ara had a great first year(9-1) and he slipped a little his second year(7-2-1). USC was a monkey on his back his entire career. Devine was 8 - 3. His team had the knack for losing to teams they shouldn't, not Navy but others. Lou was 5 - 6 outside of Alabama (18) and the loses were by 5 or less points. He succeed once he got his players (Rice, Rocket, Waters) on offense and a great D coordinator (Alvarez).

We do know this. The team is similar to what Ara and Lou took over. Used to losing and not having talent in the places needed. Lou needed offensive talent to run his offense. Ara just needed to move people into a position they could contribute. Both needed to install confidence and a winning attitude. Kelly has to do the same. Get some players on D, install confidence, and get them to believe they can and will win every game.

What I did not like from yesterday game was two plays. The touchdown before the half and the long pass. Our players give up on those plays. The assumed the play was over the Navy player couldn't or wouldn't make a play. Navy kids never give up. Remember, the men playing for Navy have ability and brains. You do not get a commission to the academy without those attributes. We did not lose to a 2 - 8 Syracuse team or a Div II school. These kids will give 100% every play every game no matter who the opponent or the score.

...all well and good, but it was Navy...giving up 50 lbs per head in the trenches. Having no where near our talent. I respect them...but they should NEVER be considered competition for Notre Dame at any stage in our development, rebirth, resurrection...whatever.

I too believe this is very similar to Lou's first year...but Lou didn't lose to Navy, and didn't have Western Michigan and Tulsa on the schedule either...

Kelly will indeed turn it around...but I don't see a NC type turn-around for some time...Sorry, I just see the depths to which we've descended, and we need to mark the turnaround in reasonable terms...phases if you will...I am always hopefull, and searching for the signs of turn around...after yesterday, I believe we are at least 4-5 years from NC discussion, assuming Kelly can do his magic...
 

DirtySecret

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Why do people still compare Lou Holtz first year to Kelly.. Different coaches, different style and philosophy. It's as irrelevant as ND to compare the both.

The fact remains Clemson beat Ga Tech by putting 9 in the box! Mind you that Ga Tech has way better talent than Navy. While ND still played a vanilla 3-4 base defense. Terrible adjustments and terrible game plan.
 

irishff1014

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i agree 100% against the option you need either a 5-3-3 or a 4-4-3 with the safty pretty much playing Line BAcker.
 

DirtySecret

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That how you stop it.. Make Navy beat you through the air. For 4 years now I scream to the top of my lungs STACK THE FING BOX!!
 

irishff1014

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The thing about the 3-4 against navy is the face that you let 2 line man get on the line backers with our trying. You bring the 4 and sometimes 5th guy up to the line they at least was have to work there way past them aand gives our linebackers a chance to limit to short gains.
 

enrico514

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Great post!!! Bipolar ND fans need to realize that ND isn't cursed and that coach Kelly didn't forget to coach the second he steped on campus. Almost everyone was raving about the hire and later the conditioning and toughness he was finally bringing to the program. 8 games in many of these same fans are starting to question the hire. We suffored for almost 20 years and they are tired of waiting. They Have been burned more than once and now wont give a quality HC the necessary time to turn the ship around. Coach Kelly has been a consistent winner everywhere he has been for longer than we have been spiralling downward. He is not Davie (great DC but not HC material), Ty (a HC imposter who kills football programs through his lack of work off the golf course) or CW (a great pro OC who in the end proved incapable of being a good college HC). He has been a successfull HC that knows what it takes to win football games. He has already started to change our conditioning and toughness. He is bringing athletes and speed. He, like all coaches, will make mistakes and occasionnally be outcoached. Unfortunately, with a team that is changing system, that is breaking in a qb with close to no playing time in the last 3 years and that has a ridiculously slow and lazy defense... All his mistakes become magnified.
 
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DirtySecret

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Great post!!! Bipolar ND fans need to realize that ND isn't cursed and that coach Kelly didn't forget to coach the second he steped on campus. Almost everyone was raving about the hire and later the conditioning and toughness he was finally bringing to the program. 8 games in many of these same fans are starting to question the hire. We suffored for almost 20 years and they are tired of waiting. They Have been burned more than once and now wont give a quality HC the necessary time to turn the ship around. Coach Kelly has been a consistent winner everywhere he has been for longer than we have been spiralling downward. He is not Davie (great DC but not HC material), Ty (a HC imposter who kills football programs through his lack of work off the golf course) or CW (a great pro OC who in the end proved incapable of being a good college HC). He has been a successfull HC that knows what it takes to win football games. He has already started to change our conditioning and toughness. He is bringing athletes and speed. He, like all coaches, will make mistakes and occasionnally be outcoached. Unfortunately, with a team that is changing system, that is breaking in a qb with close to no playing time in the last 3 years and that has a ridiculously slow and lazy defense... All his mistakes become magnified.

Yadda, yadda, yadda!! I love the part where you said "started to change our conditioning and toughness" I didn't see any toughness yesterday. Well actually I did, in Navy but I saw nothing but softness in ND. Losing to Navy is a huge red flag on Kelly.
 

enrico514

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Yadda, yadda, yadda!! I love the part where you said "started to change our conditioning and toughness" I didn't see any toughness yesterday. Well actually I did, in Navy but I saw nothing but softness in ND. Losing to Navy is a huge red flag on Kelly.

Attitudes take years to change and there ain't much we can do about that. No HC can make our players that have been playing/practicing/living soft for years tough overnight. He's a HC and not a miracle worker. But he seems to be putting a system in place that could save our younger players and instill toughness in our future recuits.

if you were an LSU fan you would have asked for Saban's head in 2000 after losing to the Blazers. Same as an Alabama fan... His humiliating loss at home in 2006 to Louisiana-Monroe would once again make you loose confidence in him.
 

DirtySecret

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Attitudes take years to change and there ain't much we can do about that. No HC can make our players that have been playing/practicing/living soft for years tough overnight. He's a HC and not a miracle worker. But he seems to be putting a system in place that could save our younger players and instill toughness in our future recuits.

if you were an LSU fan you would have asked for Saban's head in 2000 after losing to the Blazers. Same as an Alabama fan... His humiliating loss at home in 2006 to Louisiana-Monroe would once again make you loose confidence in him.

What you talking about Saban went 8-4 (5-3 SEC) his first year at LSU with a win in the Peach Bowl against a 9-3 Ga Tech George O'Leary team. The defference is Saban improve the second year winning 10 games at LSU and 12 Bama. I believe heck I know Kelly won't win 10 or even 12 games next year..
 
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enrico514

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What you talking about Saban went 8-4 (5-3 SEC) his first year at LSU with a win in the Peach Bowl against a 9-3 Ga Tech George O'Leary team. The defference is Saban improve the second year winning 10 games at LSU and 12 Bama. I believe heck I know Kelly won't win 10 or even 12 games next year..

Read thé post... I said after losing to an awefull conference USA team!

To your point... Kelly WILL/IS improving this team. It will simply take time for thé process to be completed and it wont be a linear progression. ND doesn't cut corners like most other schools and Saban, stoops or Meyer couldn't replicate their past successes here.
 
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DirtySecret

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Read thé post... I said after losing to an awefull conference USA team!

To your point... Kelly WILL/IS improving this team. It will simply take time for thé process to be completed and it wont be a linear progression. ND doesn't cut corners like most other schools and Saban, stoops or Meyer couldn't replicate their past successes here.

You can't predict that! As for cutting corners, didn't Lou cut some corners to get kids into ND? Tony Rice, anyone!!! That's only the tip of the icebreg, I bet Lou cut a lot of corner while coaching at ND. So don't give me the elitist speech on how ND does it the right way.
 
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KPENN

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You can't predict that! As for cutting corners, didn't Lou cut some corners to get kids into ND? Tony Rice, anyone!!! That's only the sealing, I bet Lou cut a lot of corner while coaching at ND. So don't give me the elitist speech on how ND does it the right way.

Say what?
 

enrico514

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You can't predict that! As for cutting corners, didn't Lou cut some corners to get kids into ND? Tony Rice, anyone!!! That's only the sealing, I bet Lou cut a lot of corner while coaching at ND. So don't give me the elitist speech on how ND does it the right way.

Youre right... I can't predict that just like you can't predict we wont win 10 games next year. But I CAN say that ND would not have accepted the off thé field problems Meyers players have had or Saban's oversigning of recruits and more or less forcing underperforming kids to leave the team for bogus medical reason.
 

DirtySecret

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Youre right... I can't predict that just like you can't predict we wont win 10 games next year. But I CAN say that ND would not have accepted the off thé field problems Meyers players have had or Saban's oversigning of recruits and more or less forcing underperforming kids to leave the team for bogus medical reason.

You act like nothing goes on at ND. Mike Ragone! Joseph Fauria! Didn't a handful of ND players get pickup by the police at a party recently? A arrest is an arrest. Again stop acting like ND is the highest of high standard..
 

TerryTate

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You act like nothing goes on at ND. Mike Ragone! Joseph Fauria! Didn't a handful of ND players get pickup by the police at a party recently? A arrest is an arrest. Again stop acting like ND is the highest of high standard..

You're kidding right? You're going to compare weed in a car and underage drinking to stalking charges, dui's, and stealing? Grow up
 
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Apples and oranges dirty. Come on man. Thats like a citation for dogs running loose versus a traffic ticket for 80 over the speed limit...

It's not the same. And BTW, the penalties are way different.
 

enrico514

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You act like nothing goes on at ND. Mike Ragone! Joseph Fauria! Didn't a handful of ND players get pickup by the police at a party recently? A arrest is an arrest. Again stop acting like ND is the highest of high standard..

We differ on that one... An arrest is most definately not an arrest! And if it were... Look at thé sheer quantity he (his players) has ammassed... I believe the latest count stood at 30!!!
 
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DirtySecret

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Right!! Murder. Underage drinking. All the same

You still don't get the point..

ND would not have accepted the off thé field problems Meyers players have had

He's acting like ND hasn't had it's fair share of problems off the field. Does really matter what they did. They got into trouble, right!! ND fans can't act all goodie-goodie when there kids get in trouble too, it doesn't matter big or small..
 

TerryTate

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Again, it doesn't matter they were arrest, right!! That's point blank and period, so move along little boy!!

Severity of the crime doesn't matter? I don't think you have a clue dude. How old are you? You have a video game clip as your signature.
 

enrico514

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You still don't get the point..



He's acting like ND hasn't had it's fair share of problems off the field. Does really matter what they did. They got into trouble, right!! ND fans can't act all goodie-goodie when there kids get in trouble too, it doesn't matter big or small..

I never said that ND doesn't occasionnally have off thé field issues... We are dealing with college student afterall... I said ND would havé never accepted the (quantity and severity of) off thé field issues Meyer's players have had over the last 5 years
 

phgreek

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Why do people still compare Lou Holtz first year to Kelly.. Different coaches, different style and philosophy. It's as irrelevant as ND to compare the both.

The fact remains Clemson beat Ga Tech by putting 9 in the box! Mind you that Ga Tech has way better talent than Navy. While ND still played a vanilla 3-4 base defense. Terrible adjustments and terrible game plan.

Holtz comparison is NOT an Xs and Os comparison...but rather the state of the program, and how erratic the first year was under a new coach...that then had success...it is a hopefull comparison...indeed.
 

Jason Pham

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You act like nothing goes on at ND. Mike Ragone! Joseph Fauria! Didn't a handful of ND players get pickup by the police at a party recently? A arrest is an arrest. Again stop acting like ND is the highest of high standard..

The cops boarded a shuttle put in place to reduce drunk driving and used the shuttle to follow the kids to a party where they were busted. If underage drinking makes somebody a thug, I'd be curious to know what the rest of your standards are.

Also, Lou left in part because the admin wanted to cut down on what they saw as his cutting corners. This isn't to suggest that Notre Dame is the second to none bastion of virtue and righteousness, but it is to say that relative to many other programs, the administration at ND has imposed fairly high standards of conduct.

EDIT: Take the personal to PM, gentlemen.
 

phgreek

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You can't predict that! As for cutting corners, didn't Lou cut some corners to get kids into ND? Tony Rice, anyone!!! That's only the tip of the icebreg, I bet Lou cut a lot of corner while coaching at ND. So don't give me the elitist speech on how ND does it the right way.

RE: Lou, his motivations, and Rice, Zorich, etc. How many of those guys got in trouble...how they doin with their ND degrees...whats NDs worst ever grad rate...whats Floridas best in the last decade. Did ND ever accept a JUCO transfer? If what tony rice is/was translates to cutting corners...were all in. Actually Tony Rice et al perfectly demonstrate the convergence of the academic and spiritual mission at ND...EVERYONE including the prop 48 guys benefitted immensely...everyone was lifted up...Folks should be proud of this program as relates to the standards the university sets...which go well beyond the NCAA...

ND does it the right way...its not elitest to say so. Anyone with a clue and a shred of decency should point to ND, Stanford, etc and say those are the models of what College Football should be. Doing it the right way is not a given...it takes hard work, and leadership to keep the ship right...very far from a given, however it is an expectation...but to have that expectation and to deliver on it, and be proud of it is not elitest.

and what are you talking about regarding beer and pot being the same as what Florida et al deal with...next you are going to bust out some relativistic socioeconomic horse**** that says pot in South bend = murder in Gainsville...this discussion is just Nuckin Futs...
 

NDinL.A.

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What you talking about Saban went 8-4 (5-3 SEC) his first year at LSU with a win in the Peach Bowl against a 9-3 Ga Tech George O'Leary team. The defference is Saban improve the second year winning 10 games at LSU and 12 Bama. I believe heck I know Kelly won't win 10 or even 12 games next year..

Dude, you sit here tell enrico that he can't predict certain things, and then you go and predict what Kelly won't do. You make zero sense. You say losing to Navy is a red flag for Kelly...what about losing to Louisiana-Monroe like Saban did??? THAT'S not a red flag??? Seriously? If you were a Bama fan and you had your way, Saban would have been gone after that God-awful loss, a loss much worse than losing to Navy. Anybody that knows anything knows you don't judge a coach after year one, you look at year 2 and 3. Judge on year one, and you lose coaches like Saban, Ferentz, Beamer, Holtz, Tressel, etc etc. Judge on year one and you give Charlie Weis a 10 year extension. Fortunately the powers that be aren't already making judgments like irrational 12 year-old girls.

So go ahead and judge Kelly and tell us we're wrong. No problem. Go smoke a blunt w/ NDOM. No problem. But just don't get mad when people disagree with your Skip Bayless overreactions and generalizations. There is a lot to rip on right now, but to say that the coach won't win because of a mediocre 1st 8 games (after the complete mess of a program that he inherited) is beyond short-sighted, and to be honest, ridiculous.

Again, it doesn't matter they were arrest, right!! That's point blank and period, so move along little boy!!

Dude, seriously, just quit. You're dead wrong here, and it's not even close. You compared Joseph Fauria streaking to Chris Rainey's being arrested after stalking and threatening to kill his girlfriend, and you try and say we're wrong? Seriously? Take a deep breath and think about you're saying. You brought up guys like Ragone (weed) and Fauria (never even close to being arrested) and the kids arrested for underage drinking (hide your mothers and children!!!), and you say that's the same as rape, murder, etc...all because they were arrested???????? And Fauria wasn't even arrested!

I can't believe you're acting like this. ND had some kids that were arrested for doing what we've all done (underage drinking), and that's comparable to Florida's multiple arrests for felonies and violent misdemeanors?? Wow. Dude, you lost this one; just accept it and move on.
 
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irishff1014

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every school you go to i promise you someone will get arrested for under age drinking thats what college is all about. It is baout controling your self when you get drunk.
 
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