Well. I guess he is right.

Circa

Conspire to keep It real
Messages
8,000
Reaction score
818
The reality of this is.. It's ugly! Scary almost. The spin that could be told and reported on this...
 
Last edited:

arahop

Well-known member
Messages
1,601
Reaction score
615
Glad to see a course of action has been taken by Jenkins. Swarbrick, and BK. Something has got to give in order see top 10 teams year in and year out.
 

MNIrishman

Well-known member
Messages
2,532
Reaction score
481
I'll just say it now before anyone else does. Stanford.

I thought I read that Stanford uses admissions as a form of trimming down incoming classes and actually isn't any different from us in academic aspects, aside from the fact that they don't have mid-year entry. Would be curious to hear from someone who actually knows something about how academics for players compares between the schools.
 
Last edited:

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
I thought I read that Stanford uses admissions as a form of trimming down incoming classes and actually isn't any different from us in academic aspects, aside from the fact that they don't have mid-year every. Would be curious to hear from someone who actually knows something about how academics for players compares between the schools.

Not that I have any first hand knowledge, but one thing that I would observe is that I have never heard of there being ANY pressure/expectation to graduate in 4 years at Stanford?
 

Fbolt

I've been around
Messages
6,932
Reaction score
2,254
I appreciate the honesty by BK and I certainly think the actions being "proposed" (to provide more assistance) are the correct ones, however, there must be a more appropriate way to deliver these messages. Regardless, it's out there.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,545
Reaction score
28,995
I thought I read that Stanford uses admissions as a form of trimming down incoming classes and actually isn't any different from us in academic aspects, aside from the fact that they don't have mid-year every. Would be curious to hear from someone who actually knows something about how academics for players compares between the schools.

A couple things about Stanford...
1. The reason they were able to win was equal parts Andrew-freaking-Luck, PEDs, and Harbaugh. If people want to copy the "Stanford Model" two parts of that are having a Tier 1 elite coach and QB... and the other part involves cheating to "develop" lesser rated players.

2. As for admissions, Stanford is much harder on football players than ND. ND has some requirements -- like foreign language -- that are a big barrier but if you're just talking about arbitrary minimums on test scores/GPA for football Stanford sets a higher bar.

3. Stanford is not a hard school once you are in. It is absolutely infamous for grade inflation. On top of that, they've always done a really good job of setting up joke classes for athletes to manage their workload with athletic obligations.

And before anyone asks, Point 1 is just a commonly accepted "fact" from people "in the know" when Harbaugh was turning the 1-11 dumpster fire around... no idea if it's still like that. Point 2 is from the fact that guys like Niklas got turned down by Stanford but got into ND. Point 3 is from the half dozen or so people I know who went to Stanford for undergrad, plus about a dozen who went there from grad school and have talked about the stark difference between the Stanford grad and undergrad populations.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
Glad to see a course of action has been taken by Jenkins. Swarbrick, and BK. Something has got to give in order see top 10 teams year in and year out.
What do you mean "course of action"? It's always been the case that 98% of football players (and probably 85% of all varsity athletes) were only accepted because of their athletics. This isn't a new thing that BK fought for. I was an undergrad during the Charlie Weis years and knew fencers and swimmers with ACT scores in the low 20s.

ETA: And the study hall and tutoring services that athletes had made it very difficult to fail academically.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.
 

phork

Raining On Your Parade
Messages
9,863
Reaction score
1,019
A couple things about Stanford...
1. The reason they were able to win was equal parts Andrew-freaking-Luck, PEDs, and Harbaugh. If people want to copy the "Stanford Model" two parts of that are having a Tier 1 elite coach and QB... and the other part involves cheating to "develop" lesser rated players.

So Michigan is not going to go from dumpster fire to elite in 3 years?
 

Irish Storm

Banned
Messages
103
Reaction score
6
Im glad Kelly is speaking out on this. Im not sure what his proposals are or if the university is actually acting on it but maybe these remarks will help light a fire under their butts.
 

arahop

Well-known member
Messages
1,601
Reaction score
615
What do you mean "course of action"? It's always been the case that 98% of football players (and probably 85% of all varsity athletes) were only accepted because of their athletics. This isn't a new thing that BK fought for. I was an undergrad during the Charlie Weis years and knew fencers and swimmers with ACT scores in the low 20s.

ETA: And the study hall and tutoring services that athletes had made it very difficult to fail academically.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.[/QUOTE

Failing academically isn't the problem. Notre Dame continues to graduate the most amount of it's football players. I think BK is just trying to get his players a better academic chance with possibly taking less credit hours per semester. Maybe he is lobbying to get even more athletes admitted to his team that he hasnt been allowed to otherwise? Maybe he feels like he's behind the 8 ball when it comes to the players and their academics? I'm all for whatever he is trying to accomplish to help these kids out get into a better position to succeed.
 

stlnd01

Was away. Now returned.
Messages
13,386
Reaction score
10,247
Failing academically isn't the problem. Notre Dame continues to graduate the most amount of it's football players. I think BK is just trying to get his players a better academic chance with possibly taking less credit hours per semester. Maybe he is lobbying to get even more athletes admitted to his team that he hasnt been allowed to otherwise? Maybe he feels like he's behind the 8 ball when it comes to the players and their academics? I'm all for whatever he is trying to accomplish to help these kids out get into a better position to succeed.

There are a lot of different potential audiences for this sort of talk:

One is internal to Notre Dame. The administration and faculty who control academic support, admissions, and course requirements for athletes. Make the case to them that players need more help, and he needs more leeway in admissions.

Two is recruits, and the programs we compete with for recruits. Demonstrate to them that - despite what the neg recruiters might say - Notre Dame is prepared to help student-athletes succeed, and that the long-term payoff is substantial.

Three is the broader college football world, which is engaged in this massive debate over what the university owes a student-athlete. Notre Dame is planting a flag that the university owes its student-athletes a quality education, while at the same time having the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that few of these student-athletes would be admitted without their athletic skills. Framing college football as an opportunity, not an entitlement or an exploitation. That's a smart way to go.

Four is probably the current players, who've seen several of their friends get burned on the altar of academic integrity. Only natural that there'd be some concern, and it's important to know that your head coach understands.

Anyway, both Kelly and Swarbrick have been refreshingly honest on these topics, and seem serious about finding good solutions. That's nice to see.
 

NDohio

Well-known member
Messages
5,869
Reaction score
3,060
This is nice to see acknowledged. I also think it shows BK "gets" Notre Dame more than people give him credit.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
2,731
Godfrey: I like the tactical move of positioning players as a group of students that would never be afforded the opportunity of a Notre Dame education in any other circumstance. Kelly is framing his players as exceptions deserving of a chance to change their lives, not entitled athletes looking to coast.

Thought this was an excellent point in the article.

Brainiacs get turned down all the time at ND. They want #5 in the class who played varsity sports over #1 who did nothing but school. The arms race for BS extracurriculars in HS is getting kind of ridiculous.
 

GoldenDome

New member
Messages
808
Reaction score
61
A couple things about Stanford...
1. The reason they were able to win was equal parts Andrew-freaking-Luck, PEDs, and Harbaugh. If people want to copy the "Stanford Model" two parts of that are having a Tier 1 elite coach and QB... and the other part involves cheating to "develop" lesser rated players.

2. As for admissions, Stanford is much harder on football players than ND. ND has some requirements -- like foreign language -- that are a big barrier but if you're just talking about arbitrary minimums on test scores/GPA for football Stanford sets a higher bar.

3. Stanford is not a hard school once you are in. It is absolutely infamous for grade inflation. On top of that, they've always done a really good job of setting up joke classes for athletes to manage their workload with athletic obligations.

And before anyone asks, Point 1 is just a commonly accepted "fact" from people "in the know" when Harbaugh was turning the 1-11 dumpster fire around... no idea if it's still like that. Point 2 is from the fact that guys like Niklas got turned down by Stanford but got into ND. Point 3 is from the half dozen or so people I know who went to Stanford for undergrad, plus about a dozen who went there from grad school and have talked about the stark difference between the Stanford grad and undergrad populations.


Would you care to back you claim or just purely base it on opinion?

The FACT that ND graduation rate is higher, but Stanford acceptance rate is lower tells you evidence of how hard each school is. How do better students graduate at a lower rate? Please explain that one.
 
Top