Wasting Freshmen Eligibility!!!

[jonesman]

I am a big supporter of Brian Kelly and believe the guy is much smarter than I, however I am in total disagreement with him using some of our freshman wasting their eligibility.

I watched on Saturday as we put Chase Hounsell on the field. I was shaking my head. WHY are playing a freshman in place of several other kids like Cwynar, Hafis or Kona?? I think Chase did an admirable job, but it was not head and shoulders above what any those above listed would do. So, why would you spend a kids eligibility for a full 5th year to give him 20-30 snaps as a freshman.

People are going to say, how do you know he would stick around for a 5th year? Well, in most cases kids at the OL, DL and even LB will take the 5th if they get the chance. There are those rare talents like Tuitt and Lynch who will likely bolt after 3, but they are the very few minority.

Some people will say that we do not need to worry as BK is going to fill the roster with tons of talent and we won't need 5th year kids. Well, that is a big ASSUMPTION!! We are into BK's third recruiting campaign and there remains some big holes going into next year. We really missed both of the last two years on numbers of premier RB, WR, and DB's.

My thought when looking at a kid like Chase on Saturday was: Are those few snaps worth losing a kid like this for an entire 5th year campaign. For all those who bash Harrison Smith, where would our defensive backfield be without him this season??? Yes, he would have been a perfect kid to put on special teams 5 years ago with his speed. Instead, he took a year to mature and now we have a experienced safety who leads that backfield. Without Hayseed, you all would be watching someone like Austin Collinsworth with his head spinning or Motta showing up late on tackles.

I believe it is very important to save every kid you can for 5th year eligibility unless the talent is obviously going to take them to the NFL. Those players are the Teo's, Tuitt's, Nix or Floyd. Not a Chase Hounsell, Cam McDaniel, Josh Atkinson.

 

[TerryTate]

You can question his decision in 4 years. Right now they're helping us win and giving our D Line enough depth to stay fresh.

Hounshell earned that playing time. He deserved to play. Ask any one of those kids and they would gladly play now vs. a 5th year.

I don't think it's a big assumption to think that we're going to build depth. Look at the recruiting classes.

It will matter 4 years from now. 4.

Chase is going to play in 6 games.

 

[Irish4Life09]

I am a big supporter of Brian Kelly and believe the guy is much smarter than I, however I am in total disagreement with him using some of our freshman wasting their eligibility.

I watched on Saturday as we put Chase Hounsell on the field. I was shaking my head. WHY are playing a freshman in place of several other kids like Cwynar, Hafis or Kona?? I think Chase did an admirable job, but it was not head and shoulders above what any those above listed would do. So, why would you spend a kids eligibility for a full 5th year to give him 20-30 snaps as a freshman.

People are going to say, how do you know he would stick around for a 5th year? Well, in most cases kids at the OL, DL and even LB will take the 5th if they get the chance. There are those rare talents like Tuitt and Lynch who will likely bolt after 3, but they are the very few minority.

Some people will say that we do not need to worry as BK is going to fill the roster with tons of talent and we won't need 5th year kids. Well, that is a big ASSUMPTION!! We are into BK's third recruiting campaign and there remains some big holes going into next year. We really missed both of the last two years on numbers of premier RB, WR, and DB's.

My thought when looking at a kid like Chase on Saturday was: Are those few snaps worth losing a kid like this for an entire 5th year campaign. For all those who bash Harrison Smith, where would our defensive backfield be without him this season??? Yes, he would have been a perfect kid to put on special teams 5 years ago with his speed. Instead, he took a year to mature and now we have a experienced safety who leads that backfield. Without Hayseed, you all would be watching someone like Austin Collinsworth with his head spinning or Motta showing up late on tackles.

I believe it is very important to save every kid you can for 5th year eligibility unless the talent is obviously going to take them to the NFL. Those players are the Teo's, Tuitt's, Nix or Floyd. Not a Chase Hounsell, Cam McDaniel, Josh Atkinson.

Hounshell actually played in 39 snaps. That's pretty significant. I'd say if he's playing that much he deserved so. Kelly isn't just going to go and waste some kid's eligibility for the hell of it against a team like Air Force...expect to see him a bunch the rest of the year.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Kelly got Hounshell in there because he needs to build depth at DL. We're still not deep at the position; Lynch and Tuitt are the #2s, and neither is very good at two-gap responsibility yet. Hafis won't be getting a 5Y, so playing him over Chase would have been a wasted opportunity to build depth. Kona also needs the experience; as to why Chase played over Kona, perhaps he was simply earned it.

The fact that Kelly actually plays freshman when they've earned it is a serious selling point for potential recruits and a great motivational tool for his team. He would lose credibility if he benched an otherwise ready to play DL because it might pay off 4 years down the road.

 

[anarin]

Yeah you're right... 4 straight wins sucks.

Lets focus on freshman playing time. hwhateve

 

[Irish Beaver]

I'd say your Harrison Smith example doesn't apply. With the defensive depth that Kelly is recruiting it is not the same situation. Harrison Smith would be a huge loss now because the dropoff to his backup is gigantic. But if his backup were a junior that has been a budding star waiting for PT then we wouldn't care about him running out of eligibility

 

[JohnShade]

BK seems fine about this so far. We'll never know if Koyack would've played if not for Ragone's injury, and that to me is the only questionable one. But it made sense with the injury. Now if he thrws Davaris or somebody out there in the last 7 games, I'll agree that's a mistake. But so far, so good. This staff sat Nix last year and was trying to sit our Kona this year until Tuitt missed a game. They know what they're about and they clearly have a plan.

If you want to complain about something, complain about using Jonas in '08 or Eifert in '09.

Also Irish beaver makes the most important point, which is that for functioning programs this isn't so all-important. If four years from now we have a huge d-line hole because we lost Hounshell or Kona, or a huge DB hole because we lost J Atkinson, then guess what - we have bigger problems.

 

[woolybug25]

I am a big supporter of Brian Kelly and believe the guy is much smarter than I, however I am in total disagreement with him using some of our freshman wasting their eligibility.

Aren't you the dude that started like 30 threads bashing Kelly for yelling at players? I don't recall you being this big supporter, and this thread doesn't support that position either.

Kelly is putting our players in position to play at their best as soon as possible. If a kid has potential, he will play early in order to get him closer to becoming a contributor. This team is not good enough to hold kids back from developing as quickly as possible.

 

[11cracker11]

I can see your point if you are taking about an Offensive Lineman who would be better served putting on 15-25 lbs of muscle and beefing up. Or maybe a QB(like Golson) who needs time learning an advanced offense . However, I think one of our main selling points to recruits, especially on defense, is they can play immediately or at least they have the opportunity to compete at some point in their freshmen year. You make it sound like Hounshell played on one kick off...

 

[Domina Nostra]

I used to think this way, but I am starting to disagree with the premise. The 85 roster max really makes a 5th year scholarship harder to reserve. If you give out too many, you have to really start limiting the size of your incoming classes. That means I think you really start off with the premise that unless the kid is on the line, he is not getting a 5th year, red-shirt or not. Think Deion Walker.

For that reason, I think that if you have normal depth, you reserve about 3 5th year spots for O-linemen, another 2 for D-Line, and another 2-3 for everyone else, QBs being the most routine in that third group. That averages out to alternating 20 or 21 recruit classes (84) and 1 loss a year.

Right now, we are going to have Prestwood, Hanratty, Carricio, Martin, and Hegarty competing for 5th years along with Prestwood, Golson, and Rabsassa. That is 8.

On the other hand, we are going to need quality depth at DE and DB next year. That means getting FR guys some experience at those positions, even if they might otherwise be good candidates for red-shirting.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I can see your point if you are taking about an Offensive Lineman who would be better served putting on 15-25 lbs of muscle and beefing up. Or maybe a QB(like Golson) who needs time learning an advanced offense . However, I think one of our main selling points to recruits, especially on defense, is they can play immediately or at least they have the opportunity to compete at some point in their freshmen year. You make it sound like Hounshell played on one kick off...

^This

Good post.

 

[JohnShade]

I used to think this way, but I am starting to disagree with the premise. The 85 roster max really makes a 5th year scholarship harder to reserve. If you give out too many, you have to really start limiting the size of your incoming classes. That means I think you really start off with the premise that unless the kid is on the line, he is not getting a 5th year, red-shirt or not. Think Deion Walker.

For that reason, I think that if you have normal depth, you reserve about 3 5th year spots for O-linemen, another 2 for D-Line, and another 2-3 for everyone else, QBs being the most routine in that third group. That averages out to alternating 20 or 21 recruit classes (84) and 1 loss a year.

Right now, we are going to have Prestwood, Hanratty, Carricio, Martin, and Hegarty competing for 5th years along with Prestwood, Golson, and Rabsassa. That is 8.

On the other hand, we are going to need quality depth at DE and DB next year. That means getting FR guys some experience at those positions, even if they might otherwise be good candidates for red-shirting.

I'm assuming the second Prestwood = Daniels.

Also, Councell.

Also Springmann. And Farley. And Hardy.

You missed a lot.

Also Grace.

Also Jalen Brown.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Short answer: Kelly is going to have so much depth and talent that he won't have to worry about redshirting guys. It'll be a machine again.

 

[NDinL.A.]

.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

Your argument would be valid if it was say idk week 10. Than playing these young guns for the first time would be ridiculous. But since it is only week 6, I think BK is right to play these kids. Get them in there now, especially if they are earning it on the practice field. Its a different game now where young kids are playing right away as freshman all over the country. I think it helps with recruiting too when you can point to those situations where freshman were allowed to play. BK can walk into a living room and say look, if you come to ND and work your *** off I am going to play you. Plus all of us as fans want to win now and BK knows he won't be around Chase's 5th yr if he doesn't win now.

 

[NDinL.A.]

I am a big supporter of Brian Kelly and believe the guy is much smarter than I, however I am in total disagreement with him using some of our freshman wasting their eligibility.

The way you've been doing nothing but complain during this entire 4 game winning streak, I HIGHLY doubt you are a big supporter of Brian Kelly, esp because he's going with Rees (my favorite complaint...you chose ONE play in this last game out of tons of plays where Rees was phenomenal and said it was proof he wasn't growing in this offense...despite his numbers the past few weeks; and then you took a handful of plays by Hendrix against a defense you just had disparaged to prove your point that Hendrix should be starting LOL). For such a 'big supporter' of BK, you've been in disagreement with a lot of stuff during this winning streak. In fact, I'd say for a guy who is usually happy, almost every single one of your posts this month has been to complain.

As for Hounshell, again, your manipulating the truth. As was stated, he played 39 snaps, not just a few. And there's still 6 more games left plus a probable bowl game. Last year BK 'burned' redshirts of several players WHO HELPED US WIN GAMES, and isn't that what it's all about??? Collinsworth and Bennett Jackson 'only' played special teams, but they were huge for us and helped us win games. Kona burned a redshirt, and even though he didn't start, he helped us with depth, had a big fumble recovery, and helped us win games.

Chase came to ND in incredible shape. He has worked his arse off in order to get on the field. The staff noticed and felt he could help us win games, and they went with him for a lot of snaps. You look at the negative, but what about the positive we could see? How about the recruits BK is able to tell, "Look, if you work hard and are talented enough, you will play as a freshman. Look at guys like Lynch, Tuitt, Hounshell, Niklas, Atkinson, etc etc etc. It's not just lip service...you will play as soon as you're ready." It worked kinda well for Pete Carroll, didn't it?

And one more thing...how many threads/posts have we talked about how many schollies we have available and how many 5th years we're going to have to deny? Why withhold a guy (aside from the O-Line) who is ready to contribute now? We already have several guys we're holding back...how many do you want to hold back??? This isn't Wake Forest where we need to rely on 5th years in order to compete.

If they're ready and they won't hurt you, play 'em...

Aren't you the dude that started like 30 threads bashing Kelly for yelling at players? I don't recall you being this big supporter, and this thread doesn't support that position either.

You want a good laugh? Remember that he claims that he is a huge Kelly supporter and then look at his recent posting history, especially the last 2 gameday threads. We've had 2 straight blowouts, and ALL he does is b!tch about anything and everything. And then after the games he starts threads or writes posts b!tching about something.

Shoot me if I ever look at nothing but the downside of everything in life...

 

[irish1958]

There is no way to tell if someone will leave early for the NFL (or CFL for that matter-think Rocket), especially as ND, unlike all other college programs, insists all athletes graduate in four years. Since some also can graduate in three years due to early enrollment and summer classes, sitting them out to gain more eligibility is at best a gamble.
The better they are, the more of a gamble.
Therefore, play them when they are ready.
As noted above: ask any recruit, especially an EE, if they would rather sit out a year (some after playing every year from the age of five) and play as a fifth year senior, or play right away if they are ready.

 

[aubeirish]

The work that these guys are getting in game situations is so valuable. The future is really bright. I like that Kelly gives these guys playing time. It will pay off when they become starters. With the next man in philosophy and the kind of recruiting that is going on, 5th years is not going to matter much. Besides, you won't have room for many 5th years anyways.

 

[TerryTate]

I wish I could spear him in the office.

 

[Irish To The Core]

If a kid can help us win now he should see the field now.

Many of the guys who qualify for a 5th year will not be offered that luxury anyway. Even more so if one believes that Notre Dame will be competing for a national championship in the near future. More of those 5 star kids who hold off committing until signing will be signing with Notre Dame (if we are in the NC hunt). Where do those open scholarships come from? They come from fifth year guys who are told there is no room for them...that is the way it is.

If a freshman needs a year to develop before he can contribute, fine. But if he can make the team better by playing, get him on the field.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

The way you've been doing nothing but complain during this entire 4 game winning streak, I HIGHLY doubt you are a big supporter of Brian Kelly, esp because he's going with Rees (my favorite complaint...you chose ONE play in this last game out of tons of plays where Rees was phenomenal and said it was proof he wasn't growing in this offense...despite his numbers the past few weeks; and then you took a handful of plays by Hendrix against a defense you just had disparaged to prove your point that Hendrix should be starting LOL). For such a 'big supporter' of BK, you've been in disagreement with a lot of stuff during this winning streak. In fact, I'd say for a guy who is usually happy, almost every single one of your posts this month has been to complain.

As for Hounshell, again, your manipulating the truth. As was stated, he played 39 snaps, not just a few. And there's still 6 more games left plus a probable bowl game. Last year BK 'burned' redshirts of several players WHO HELPED US WIN GAMES, and isn't that what it's all about??? Collinsworth and Bennett Jackson 'only' played special teams, but they were huge for us and helped us win games. Kona burned a redshirt, and even though he didn't start, he helped us with depth, had a big fumble recovery, and helped us win games.

Chase came to ND in incredible shape. He has worked his arse off in order to get on the field. The staff noticed and felt he could help us win games, and they went with him for a lot of snaps. You look at the negative, but what about the positive we could see? How about the recruits BK is able to tell, "Look, if you work hard and are talented enough, you will play as a freshman. Look at guys like Lynch, Tuitt, Hounshell, Niklas, Atkinson, etc etc etc. It's not just lip service...you will play as soon as you're ready." It worked kinda well for Pete Carroll, didn't it?

And one more thing...how many threads/posts have we talked about how many schollies we have available and how many 5th years we're going to have to deny? Why withhold a guy (aside from the O-Line) who is ready to contribute now? We already have several guys we're holding back...how many do you want to hold back??? This isn't Wake Forest where we need to rely on 5th years in order to compete.

If they're ready and they won't hurt you, play 'em...



You want a good laugh? Remember that he claims that he is a huge Kelly supporter and then look at his recent posting history, especially the last 2 gameday threads. We've had 2 straight blowouts, and ALL he does is b!tch about anything and everything. And then after the games he starts threads or writes posts b!tching about something.

Shoot me if I ever look at nothing but the downside of everything in life...

Ahhhhh...

I knew that one was coming. I do so enjoy your posts.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I wish I could spear him in the office.

"If you whine, yo as$ is mine!

 

[Old North State Irish]

Best Available In

Best Available In

I have a friend that played for Kelly at Grand Valley State. In speaking with him, he stated that Kelly is going to keep upgrading the players getting more and more elite types. He said it is just a matter of time. Having said that, I feel Kelly (as stated by some others here) isn't worried about the 5th year b/c there just won't be enough room.

P.S.-The only way to make up for the first two losses is a Win vs usc and then ending the year with a shootout victory over Stanford.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I'm assuming the second Prestwood = Daniels.

Also, Councell.

Also Springmann. And Farley. And Hardy.

You missed a lot.

Also Grace.

Also Jalen Brown.

The Second Prestwood should have been Springman. I forgot about Hardy, but he would have played, IMO.

I have no expectation that Daniels, Farley, Grace, Councell or Brown sit out the year.

I have a friend that played for Kelly at Grand Valley State. In speaking with him, he stated that Kelly is going to keep upgrading the players getting more and more elite types. He said it is just a matter of time. Having said that, I feel Kelly (as stated by some others here) isn't worried about the 5th year b/c there just won't be enough room.

Exactly.

 

[JohnShade]

The Second Prestwood should have been Springman. I forgot about Hardy, but he would have played, IMO.

I have no expectation that Daniels, Farley, Grace, Councell or Brown sit out the year.

I think the thread starter is stupid and wrong, and a jerk, but if Farley and Daniels play in the remaining seven games something is wrong. They're WRs and if they didn't appear in the AF game (where Deion Walker was on the field for multiple series) they probably shouldn't show up this year. Maybe they end up not good enough to get a fifth year when the time comes, but there's no sense in playing them just to play them, either. Councell was a highly rated LB who hasn't played yet and would be a mistake. Brown could still show up, but since he didn't play against AF (or did he? someone check), it doesn't seem like he will.

AF, given its timing and the situation (where all third stringers and bench warmers who could play, got to play), was kind of a last call. If a guy hasn't played yet he probably won't, and shouldn't, play this year.

 

[irishog77]

The Second Prestwood should have been Springman. I forgot about Hardy, but he would have played, IMO.

I have no expectation that Daniels, Farley, Grace, Councell or Brown sit out the year.



Exactly.

This got me to thinking-- say we keep the recruits we have and add another RB (one of the Marshalls) and also add Agholor...any chance Farley moves to DB??

Just a thought I had. Assuming Cam R. is okay post-injury and that maybe GAIII moves to WR.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I have no expectation that Daniels, Farley, Grace, Councell or Brown sit out the year.

Daniels' father has confirmed that Davaris is red shirting this year. Jalen Brown confirmed the coaching staff's intent to red shirt him as well, but I can't find it atm.

Farley, Grace, and Councell all seem very unlikely to play this year given the depth chart and their absence from any of the #1 ST units.

 

[TerryTate]

Most analysts think Farley is a project.

Raw speed and athletic ability, needs to be polished. I think WR is more suited for his learning curve and physical abilities.

He could be another Jackson / Collinsworth if we don't land our targets this year

 

[irishog77]

And as far as the OP goes: how awesome is it that Crist didn't play his FR year, preserving another year of eligibility for ND next year? That's worked out awesome for everybody.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

And as far as the OP goes: how awesome is it that Crist didn't play his FR year, preserving another year of eligibility for ND year? That's worked out awesome for everybody.

I think he's still arguing that Crist should be our starter. I could be wrong...recalling previous threads.