Trump Presidency

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SeekNDestroy

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He said Nancy's words were "semantics." They are not. He has proceeded to say the defendant needs to prove their innocence. Which is not the case, outside of maybe wrongful conviction stuff. But hes flat out wrong. You are a smart guy, there is no need to jump in to defend him here.
First of all, I’m not that smart. Secondly, yes, the cornerstone of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty. In theory, yes, that is true. But in practice, it may be necessary to prove one’s innocence in order to prevent conviction. Remember, a lot of jurors are stupid.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Exactly. Yet, everyone arguing against you is claiming you said that one has to prove their innocence.
This all started because of Pelosis tweet.
This is what Cack posted. It may not have been what he meant. But it's flat out incorrect. It's not semantics. You can be found not guilty without proving your innocence. If that's not what he meant. I don't know why he's been defending himself as if he had for the past three days.
I did not say prove innocence. I said they have to Prove the evidence against isn’t enough to convict. Exact words. That may take the form of any number of strategies whether it’s doing nothing or generating a defense, attacking the claims, dismantling their evidence whatever. There is nothing remotely controversial about this that happens literally everyday all over the world.

A good defense lawyer isn’t going to be passive. They get paid to be active.

In the case of Trump he will be charged with 30+ Crimes. I refuse to think his lawyers will be passive. They will do everything to undermine and cast doubt on the evidence against. They will likely has to argue and show/prove audio recordings, signatures, witness testimony, are irrelevant, incorrect or wrong. This is literally uncontroversial.
 
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Cackalacky2.0

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First of all, I’m not that smart. Secondly, yes, the cornerstone of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty. In theory, yes, that is true. But in practice, it may be necessary to prove one’s innocence in order to prevent conviction. Remember, a lot of jurors are stupid.
This is crazy. I have said this five times already. It’s theory. Then there is practice then there is the reslity that many people can’t afford good defenses and those that were wrongly convicted that ABSOLUTELY DO have to prove their innocence after the fact.
 

ab2cmiller

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So you agree then that just because someone was found not guilty, they may not have done anything to prove that they were indeed innocent. Good deal.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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So you agree then that just because someone was found not guilty, they may not have done anything to prove that they were indeed innocent. Good deal.
Good lord 😂 the post you quoted I said this very thing in the first line 😂 Maybe you miss the word exonerated?
 

NorthDakota

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First of all, I’m not that smart. Secondly, yes, the cornerstone of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty. In theory, yes, that is true. But in practice, it may be necessary to prove one’s innocence in order to prevent conviction. Remember, a lot of jurors are stupid.
It's not a theory. The judge i worked for said, "from my experience, jurors take their role seriously."

We had a case where the drugs belonged to the defendant. The state didn't establish their case. I know you are downplaying your brains. I think you are smart enough to know the difference between preponderance of evidence (more likely than not) and beyond a reasonable doubt. I refuse to believe otherwise.
 

NorthDakota

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This is crazy. I have said this five times already. It’s theory. Then there is practice then there is the reslity that many people can’t afford good defenses and those that were wrongly convicted that ABSOLUTELY DO have to prove their innocence after the fact.
Wrongly convicted have a different burden than a normal defendant. At the trial level, a defendant has zero burden to prove innocence, again, they can and do ask the judge to acquit them after the prosecution rests. Basically, without doing any work (other than cross examination), the defense asks the judge to get rid of this.

Here, Cack is conflating trial and appellate practice. They are entirely different things. Different universes, even. My office dabbles in both, I'm very limited experience wise, but they give me projects in both. They are very different work.
 

NorthDakota

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Cack's thing seems to be "what do you mean you don't need to prove your innocence? This guy on death row had to do X and Y to overturn his conviction after losing some appeals!?"

Thats now how stuff works at the trial level, the level Nancy Pelosi was speaking about. Hes wrong. Ignore his objectively trash analysis. Proving your innocence will lead to a not guilty verdict, impeaching witnesses can lead to a not guilty verdict, many things can help you obtain a not guilty verdict.

None (or any) of them are required to get a not guilty verdict.
 

Irish#1

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I don’t give a shit what y’all think about me. It’s hilarious to me that people are defending a guy when they don’t even know what the charges are. I don’t know what they are. I don’t know if they can prove it. We will see. That means I have TDS? Ok 👍
Priceless Cack. You already said they’re felonies yet no one has seen the charges yet. No one is defending Trump. They’re just saying this may not be a slam dunk given those who have some inside info are saying there are a lot of questions to be answered.
 

ab2cmiller

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I don’t give a shit what y’all think about me. It’s hilarious to me that people are defending a guy when they don’t even know what the charges are. I don’t know what they are. I don’t know if they can prove it. We will see. That means I have TDS? Ok 👍

Absolutely relaxed 😂. Trumps about to go to jail.

Priceless Cack. You already said they’re felonies yet no one has seen the charges yet. No one is defending Trump. They’re just saying this may not be a slam dunk given those who have some inside info are saying there are a lot of questions to be answered.
This is only more proof of the TDS. These two posts by Cack were literally back to back. Calling out others for defending Trump without knowing all the details. Very next post .... "Trumps about to go to jail". Sounds reasonable. LOL

As you pointed out Irish#1, I've seen almost nobody going to bat for Trump defending his actions etc etc etc. People are pointing out some of the potential complexities of the "likely" case. A lot of those responses were in response to Lax's question "Can anyone give me a one sentence answer on why Trump shouldn’t be prosecuted for crimes a grand jury thinks there is evidence that he committed?"

Cack is right...... we don't know all the facts yet. We will know more soon enough. Maybe there is more evidence than what the experts currently believe. Maybe he will be charged with some things that the experts aren't anticipating.
 

ab2cmiller

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As I've said before ... I have ZERO love for Trump. I wish he would go away. He has zero interest in what is best for this country, what is best for the Republican party, what is best for the average American. He has one interest. Himself. If it looks like he won't get the nomination, I have no doubt he will try to "burn the MF down".

I didn't vote for him in the General Election in 2016 and instead voted independent. In 2020 I didn't get to vote because I was quarantining over a COVID exposure. I would have voted Independent again. If he gets the nomination again. I will not vote for him. I pray that the Republicans nominate literally anyone else.

Despite my disdain for him, I still believe he deserves to be treated fairly and like any other person. So when a NY prosecutor appears to be cobbling together some kind of new legal theory in an attempt to take him out, I ask myself would this prosecutor be doing this for anyone else other than Trump. In the end, I hope it's the end of his political aspirations. I doubt it.
 

NorthDakota

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Priceless Cack. You already said they’re felonies yet no one has seen the charges yet. No one is defending Trump. They’re just saying this may not be a slam dunk given those who have some inside info are saying there are a lot of questions to be answered.
Hes probably rightly assuming it is a felony. If its related to the payment/business records it needs to be a felony from what I understand. Statute of limitations would've ran on a misdemeanor it sounds like.
 

Irish#1

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As I've said before ... I have ZERO love for Trump. I wish he would go away. He has zero interest in what is best for this country, what is best for the Republican party, what is best for the average American. He has one interest. Himself. If it looks like he won't get the nomination, I have no doubt he will try to "burn the MF down".

I didn't vote for him in the General Election in 2016 and instead voted independent. In 2020 I didn't get to vote because I was quarantining over a COVID exposure. I would have voted Independent again. If he gets the nomination again. I will not vote for him. I pray that the Republicans nominate literally anyone else.

Despite my disdain for him, I still believe he deserves to be treated fairly and like any other person. So when a NY prosecutor appears to be cobbling together some kind of new legal theory in an attempt to take him out, I ask myself would this prosecutor be doing this for anyone else other than Trump. In the end, I hope it's the end of his political aspirations. I doubt it.
Yep, he needs to go away. I’ve always said the best thing for everyone is to ignore him. Don’t give him any coverage but the media can’t help themselves. I read where his campaign raised something like 4 million as soon as the indictment came out.
 
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Bluto

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Trumps a dickhead as are most assholes born with a silver spoon crammed up their ass. Hilarious watching the pearl clutching about him being “railroaded” and judged guilty before being innocent.
 

chisea03

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"David Pecker, the ex-publisher of The National Enquirer, is reportedly in possession of a damming trove of dirt on Trump, stemming from their long-standing friendship and his aid in maintaining the former president’s public image,” said Rolling Stone Magazine
 

Irish#1

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Trumps a dickhead as are most assholes born with a silver spoon crammed up their ass. Hilarious watching the pearl clutching about him being “railroaded” and judged guilty before being innocent.
Agree, Cack already found him guilty. Lol
 

GoIrish41

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I can’t help that you can’t understand what a defense has to do to win cases against prosecutions in todays court. I have already said that in theory yes everyone is innocent until proven guilty but innocent people are also charges with crimes and have to prove they didn’t do it in the face of overwhelming evidence.
It’s weird that the people who agree with Trump that he was fully vindicated when he didn’t get removed from office after being impeached are now arguing that trials don’t prove innocence. It’s almost like they don’t believe anything they are saying, ever. 😏
 

Cackalacky2.0

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Agree, Cack already found him guilty. Lol
I haven’t. I’ve said multiple times I’m waiting to see what the charges are first and then the actual trial. Haha.

I said it to toungue in cheek to abc in one post.
 
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Cackalacky2.0

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It’s weird that the people who agree with Trump that he was fully vindicated when he didn’t get removed from office after being impeached are now arguing that trials don’t prove innocence. It’s almost like they don’t believe anything they are saying, ever. 😏
The definition of vindication indicates just such a phenomenon.
 

NorthDakota

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It’s weird that the people who agree with Trump that he was fully vindicated when he didn’t get removed from office after being impeached are now arguing that trials don’t prove innocence. It’s almost like they don’t believe anything they are saying, ever. 😏
I dont think he was ever vindicated. Impeachments are political in nature. I think you have largely created a strawman.

And I would lecture anyone on the "trials proving innocence" opinion. Sometimes they do. But thats not the standard and never has been in the United States.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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This is only more proof of the TDS. These two posts by Cack were literally back to back. Calling out others for defending Trump without knowing all the details. Very next post .... "Trumps about to go to jail". Sounds reasonable. LOL

As you pointed out Irish#1, I've seen almost nobody going to bat for Trump defending his actions etc etc etc. People are pointing out some of the potential complexities of the "likely" case. A lot of those responses were in response to Lax's question "Can anyone give me a one sentence answer on why Trump shouldn’t be prosecuted for crimes a grand jury thinks there is evidence that he committed?"

Cack is right...... we don't know all the facts yet. We will know more soon enough. Maybe there is more evidence than what the experts currently believe. Maybe he will be charged with some things that the experts aren't anticipating.
The trumps going was jail was toungue in cheek. Maybe should have used italics or a lol.

Are you fucking kidding me with no one defending him? The entire right wing outage machine has already exonerates him. Lindsey Graham has been on a nonstop defense train. I thought he was gonna cry on fox yesterday. Lmaoooo this is the dumbest fucking thing I e read in a while. Social media is literally clogged up with that and the GOP is literally in tv 247 up in arms about it. Kolololololol. Tak about out of touch.
 

ab2cmiller

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The trumps going was jail was gtoungue in cheek. It’s clear you missed that. Maybe should have used italics or a lol. M

Are you fucking kidding me with no one defending him? Lmaoooo this is the dumbest fucking thing I e read in a while. Social media is literally clogged up with that and the GOP is literally in tv 247 up in arms about it. Kolololololol. Tak about out of touch.
We were talking about this board, maybe you missed that. That’s why I specifically mentioned peoples responses to LAX’s question. Slow down and focusing on reading comprehension.
 
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