Torture Report

[IRISH in MT]

Are you talking about the mafia or the CIA?

My opinion is that violent crimes should be punished as they were committed. The CIA tortured BUT drew a line at killing. IF we were doing an eye for eye, the CIA report would be filled with beheading reports instead of torture reports, right?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

My opion is that violent crimes should be punished as they were committed. The CIA tortured BUT drew a line at killing. IF we were doing an eye for eye, the CIA report would be filled with beheading reports instead of torture reports, right?

I'm getting the picture. But you're not talking about gaining good intelligence. You're talking about revenge.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Not through torture:



More, from CNN's Peter Bergen:

"In a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe years ago, al-Qaida’s No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, gave authorities the nicknames of several of bin Laden’s couriers, four former U.S. intelligence officials said. Those names were among thousands of leads the CIA was pursuing."

We took this SOB for quite a few swims (over 100) in that secret prison, which led to names of couriers, which led to a tapped phone call, which led to Bin Laden's location.

Or did KSM give us intel because we gave him meals with no pork, a carpet for prayer, and the Koran?

 

[tussin]

I'd argue that doing the things that are in the report put our citizens in harm's way.

OK, but let's not compound a problem. Is the most appropriate response for the Senate to drag our lead intelligence community through the mud in front of the entire world?

Let's not act like the CIA are just a bunch of rogue psychopaths operating behind the government's back.

 

[GoIrish41]

I don't want to torture anybody. Nice try tho. I said I don't have pity on black site detainees because of what happened to McCain and Amercian POW's. You blind or cross eyed? The CIA OBVIOUSLY drew the line at killing them...something the radical muslims and latin american drug cartels don't stop at.

Eye for an Eye on violent crimes is justice. You rape someone, you in turn should have to go through rape. You take someone's life then you should have to give up your life. IF it were Eye for an Eye the CIA report would be filled with murder files. They are torture files. Get the picture yet?

Oh, we'd never kill someone ...

"Frozen to death

Gul Rahman died in the early hours of 20 November 2002, after being shackled to a cold concrete wall in a secret CIA prison.

At COBALT, the CIA interrogated in 2002 Gul Rahman, described as a suspected Islamic extremist. He was subjected to “48 hours of sleep deprivation, auditory overload, total darkness, isolation, a cold shower and rough treatment”.

CIA headquarters suggested “enhanced measures” might be needed to get him to comply. A CIA officer at COBALT ordered Rahman be “shackled to the wall of his cell in a position that required the detainee to rest on the bare concrete floor”.

He was only wearing a sweatshirt as a CIA officer has ordered his clothes to be removed earlier after judging him to be uncooperative during an interrogation.

The next day, guards found Rahman dead. An internal CIA review and autopsy assessed he likely died from hypothermia – “in part from having been forced to sit on the bare concrete floor without pants”. An initial CIA review and cable sent to CIA headquarters after his death included a number of misstatements and omissions."

 

[GoIrish41]

OK, but let's not compound a problem. Is the most appropriate response for the Senate to drag our lead intelligence community through the mud in front of the entire world?

Let's not act like the CIA are just a bunch of rogue psychopaths operating behind the government's back.[/QUOTE]

I think this report seems to suggest that they are ... at least some of them.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

OK, but let's not compound a problem. Is the most appropriate response for the Senate to drag our lead intelligence community through the mud in front of the entire world?

Let's not act like the CIA are just a bunch of rogue psychopaths operating behind the government's back.

I think we confront it head on. That doesn't mean I think we should give out intelligence. But this stuff needs to see the light of day or it will happen again.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

"In a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe years ago, al-Qaida’s No. 3 leader, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, gave authorities the nicknames of several of bin Laden’s couriers, four former U.S. intelligence officials said. Those names were among thousands of leads the CIA was pursuing."

We took this SOB for quite a few swims (over 100) in that secret prison, which led to names of couriers, which led to a tapped phone call, which led to Bin Laden's location.

Or did KSM give us intel because we gave him meals with no pork, a carpet for prayer, and the Koran?

Totally Agree. It took over 100 attempts before this dude cracked. do some of you guys think that a a few nights at the playboy mansion would of made this guy talk faster? He would of been super pissed because the girls weren't virgins.

 

[tussin]

I think this report seems to suggest that they are ... at least some of them.

Which is what irks me. The Monday-morning QB CYA conclusions aren't fair. This was a collective failure. Dems and Reps were aligned in the early-2000s to do whatever it took to stop terrorism. They all knew what was happening in those prison camps.

The facts are the facts, and many of them are terrible. The conclusions drawn are where I don't agree with many of you.

 

[GoIrish41]

They should have released the report if it was deemed as a necessary step in the corrective course.

I don't think transparency from our intelligence community is necessary or appropriate. Plus, I'd argue that the report's release yesterday put many of our citizens in harm's way internationally.

How about accountability?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Totally Agree. It took over 100 attempts before this dude cracked. do some of you guys think that a a few nights at the playboy mansion would of made this guy talk faster? He would of been super pissed because the girls weren't virgins.

There's a difference between giving lavish living conditions and not torturing. I think there's a bit of space in between those two things.

 

[GoIrish41]

Which is what irks me. The Monday-morning QB CYA conclusions aren't fair. This was a collective failure. Dems and Reps were aligned in the early-2000s to do whatever it took to stop terrorism. They all knew what was happening in those prison camps.

The facts are the facts, and many of them are terrible. The conclusions drawn are where I don't agree with many of you.

I think it is clear that they didn't. They say they were lied to and misled by the administration and the CIA, and eventually the CIA even misled the administration.

 

[tussin]

How about accountability?

The aren't accountable for anything unless it is clearly shown that they went behind the Senate and DOJ's back, which can't be proved based on the minority response.

 

[IRISH in MT]

I'm getting the picture. But you're not talking about gaining good intelligence. You're talking about revenge.

NOT revenge, justice. When it comes to torture, my argument is that the tortured are still living which is always better than the alternative. I guess I am trying to say that yes torture is cruel but the USA and CIA aren't that bad because they stop at torture. The detainees are still alive right? Even the innocent ones. I just think the USA is getting the bad image when there are far worse things other countries are doing (mass graves unearthed, televised beheadings, chemical warfare etc).

IF we got more true info from torture than false info, then it works. And at least the tortured will get to live. Loud music is better than the bamboo up toenails McCain endured... I will let you be the judge of which one you want done!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Or did KSM give us intel because we gave him meals with no pork, a carpet for prayer, and the Koran?

The CIA straight up admitted that "[h]e identified them many months later under standard interrogation." As opposed to "enhanced" interrogation.

No one is arguing that KSM should have been wined and dined in a minimum security resort. But the CIA's own admissions on the subject strongly indicate that torture didn't help us catch bin-Laden. In fact, the Bergen article points out that:

Even worse for the CIA -- which has consistently defended the supposed utility of the interrogation program, including in the hunt for bin Laden -- a number of CIA prisoners who were subjected to coercive interrogations consistently provided misleading information designed to wave away CIA interrogators from the bin Laden courier who would eventually prove to be the key to finding al Qaeda's leader.

So the CIA's torture program may have even delayed bin-Laden's capture. But regardless of how you want to spin it, there's no evidence that it helped.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

NOT revenge, justice. When it comes to torture, my argument is that the tortured are still living which is always better than the alternative. I guess I am trying to say that yes torture is cruel but the USA and CIA aren't that bad because they stop at torture. The detainees are still alive right? Even the innocent ones. I just think the USA is getting the bad image when there are far worse things other countries are doing (mass graves unearthed, televised beheadings, chemical warfare etc).

IF we got more true info from torture than false info, then it works. And at least the tortured will get to live. Loud music is better than the bamboo up toenails McCain endured... I will let you be the judge of which one you want done!

Maybe I'd agree with you if it was only loud music.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

There's a difference between giving lavish living conditions and not torturing. I think there's a bit of space in between those two things.

I don't believe for a second that if your family member's life were on the line, you'd ask a few questions to the detainee and give up if you didn't get any intel.

 

[IRISH in MT]

Maybe I'd agree with you if it was only loud music.

What doesn't KILL you only makes you stronger. I choose to be tortured every day of the week and TWICE on Sunday's over being murdered!

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

The CIA straight up admitted that "[h]e identified them many months later under standard interrogation." As opposed to "enhanced" interrogation.

No one is arguing that KSM should have been wined and dined in a minimum security resort. But the CIA's own admissions on the subject strongly indicate that torture didn't help us catch bin-Laden. In fact, the Bergen article points out that:



So the CIA's torture program may have even delayed bin-Laden's capture. But regardless of how you want to spin it, there's no evidence that it helped.

Glad we warmed him up. I would've waterboarded him more for lying to me the first time.

 

[GoIrish41]

NOT revenge, justice. When it comes to torture, my argument is that the tortured are still living which is always better than the alternative. I guess I am trying to say that yes torture is cruel but the USA and CIA aren't that bad because they stop at torture. The detainees are still alive right? Even the innocent ones. I just think the USA is getting the bad image when there are far worse things other countries are doing (mass graves unearthed, televised beheadings, chemical warfare etc).

IF we got more true info from torture than false info, then it works. And at least the tortured will get to live. Loud music is better than the bamboo up toenails McCain endured... I will let you be the judge of which one you want done!

They aren't all still living. See several posts up from me. They are getting a bad image because we FUCKIN TORTURED PEOPLE. We are not other countries. We were conceived and organized to be different ... to be better. If we abandon our ideals, we are no longer that. If we allow this to go on, we have lost our moral compass. We are going in a new direction and that direction leads to the same type of behaviors that you describe from other nations.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't believe for a second that if your family member's life were on the line, you'd ask a few questions to the detainee and give up if you didn't get any intel.

When an FBI agent apprehends a murderer, we don't tie him to a chair, hand a baseball bat to the victim's spouse, and leave them in a room alone together. Retribution isn't justice.

 

[IRISH in MT]

They aren't all still living. See several posts up from me. They are getting a bad image because we FUCKIN TORTURED PEOPLE. We are not other countries. We were conceived and organized to be different ... to be better. If we abandon our ideals, we are no longer that. If we allow this to go on, we have lost our moral compass. We are going in a new direction and that direction leads to the same type of behaviors that you describe from other nations.

In our minds. Unfortunately they see us as soft and nice. Maybe that is why they keep attacking us and trying to drag us into war with them. Everytime we leave a country it just goes back under control by the bad guys and it all starts back up again. Iraq 3 times now!!!

We are NOT like the other nations. We don't have mass graves for our detainees. They were scarred but their lives spared and that is what still makes the USA better than everyone else.

 

[Cackalacky]

I don't believe for a second that if your family member's life were on the line, you'd ask a few questions to the detainee and give up if you didn't get any intel.

Would you want some one else extracting information from your kid?

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

There's a difference between giving lavish living conditions and not torturing. I think there's a bit of space in between those two things.

John McCain went through complete hell, never talked, and even let others leave before him. They Broke is body but not his loyalty to his country and fellow servicemen and women. How do expect to break someone from another country, who, if nothing else will die for Allah in a suicide bombing.

So whats the best way to go about getting a Terrorist to give up information? just talk him to death? Slam your hands on the table a few times? I really don't know what some of you expect them to do.

Say you get arrested for weed, the detectives come in...

"If you don't give us your dealers name you are going away to prison for a year. Tell us, you'll get probation."

that's not how war works. That's how Cleveland Ohio works.

 

[nsideirish]

Of the 119 prisoners detained and tortured by the CIA, at least 26 were "wrongfully held." That's ~22%--nearly 1 in 4-- of every prisoner in CIA custody.

Are you comfortable with those figures?

This is the uncomfortable truth that I tried to point out earlier but no one responded. How can anyone read this story (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/opinion/sunday/my-guantanamo-nightmare.html?_r=0) and still support America's detention and torture policies.

"I still had faith in American justice. I believed my captors would quickly realize their mistake and let me go. But when I would not give the interrogators the answers they wanted — how could I, when I had done nothing wrong? — they became more and more brutal. I was kept awake for many days straight. I was forced to remain in painful positions for hours at a time. These are things I do not want to write about; I want only to forget."

One of my law school professors worked on this case in front of the Supreme Court. We had the opportunity to communicate wit Mr. Boumediene and his story is absolutely heartbreaking. Imagine being plucked away, sent off to a foreign land and tortured for seven years without any opportunity to plead your case. When you proclaim your innocence, you are tortured even more. How the FUCK can anyone support that and still purport to believe in the principles America was founded upon?

 

[GoIrish41]

I don't believe for a second that if your family member's life were on the line, you'd ask a few questions to the detainee and give up if you didn't get any intel.

This is the third time you tested out that strawman. Apparently nobody wants to change the subject to a pretend scenario you saw portrayed on NCIS. Go figure.

 

[IRISH in MT]

John McCain went through complete hell, never talked, and even let others leave before him. They Broke is body but not his loyalty to his country and fellow servicemen and women. How do expect to break someone from another country, who, if nothing else will die for Allah in a suicide bombing.

So whats the best way to go about getting a Terrorist to give up information? just talk him to death? Slam your hands on the table a few times? I really don't know what some of you expect them to do.

Say you get arrested for weed, the detectives come in...

"If you don't give us your dealers name you are going away to prison for a year. Tell us, you'll get probation."
That's not how war works. That's how Cleveland Ohio works.

AMEN! Milk and Cookies doesn't win wars. We didn't choose this war, they poked and prodded until we came hunting.

 

[GoIrish41]

In our minds. Unfortunately they see us as soft and nice. Maybe that is why they keep attacking us and trying to drag us into war with them. Everytime we leave a country it just goes back under control by the bad guys and it all starts back up again. Iraq 3 times now!!!

We are NOT like the other nations. We don't have mass graves for our detainees. They were scarred but their lives spared and that is what still makes the USA better than everyone else.

Serious question ... Do you know a guy named IrishPat from Texas?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

When an FBI agent apprehends a murderer, we don't tie him to a chair, hand a baseball bat to the victim's spouse, and leave them in a room alone together. Retribution isn't justice.

I'm not talking about retribution, or murder, or killing anyone. I'm talking about exhausting every option possible to save someone's life hanging in the balance.

 

[IRISH in MT]

Oh, we'd never kill someone ...

"Frozen to death

Gul Rahman died in the early hours of 20 November 2002, after being shackled to a cold concrete wall in a secret CIA prison.

At COBALT, the CIA interrogated in 2002 Gul Rahman, described as a suspected Islamic extremist. He was subjected to “48 hours of sleep deprivation, auditory overload, total darkness, isolation, a cold shower and rough treatment”.

CIA headquarters suggested “enhanced measures” might be needed to get him to comply. A CIA officer at COBALT ordered Rahman be “shackled to the wall of his cell in a position that required the detainee to rest on the bare concrete floor”.

He was only wearing a sweatshirt as a CIA officer has ordered his clothes to be removed earlier after judging him to be uncooperative during an interrogation.

The next day, guards found Rahman dead. An internal CIA review and autopsy assessed he likely died from hypothermia – “in part from having been forced to sit on the bare concrete floor without pants”. An initial CIA review and cable sent to CIA headquarters after his death included a number of misstatements and omissions."

Death by hypothermia is not intentional murder like say, putting a sword through a neck. When you get that cold you fall asleep to die anyway. Were they responsible for leaving him naked? YES. Are they mother nature and control the temperature at night? NOPE.