Theology

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
I've listened to a couple of Taylor Marshall's podcasts, very smart guy. Most of it goes right over my head.

Btw, anybody have a fave place to buy a Theotokos icon? Preferably from a monastery.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
I know an Orthodox iconographer, I'm assuming you'd probably want it sourced from a Catholic source though but he may know a few. I also know a few Eastern Catholic priests I can reach out to.
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
DO NOT, under any circumstances buy from a site called "Monastery Icons":
The following comments concern a business called Monastery Icons (http://www.monasteryicons.com). This company offers "icons" and other religious content that has a veneer of Orthdooxy, but which in fact is associated with Hinduism. Their products are spirituallly dangerous, and so Fr. Anthony Nelson, a Priest in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, sent me these remarks.

The “Light of Christ Monastery” and the Convent of the Virgin Mary in Borrego Springs, CA., formerly the “Gnostic Orthodox” in Geneva, Nebraska (Holy Protection Gnostic Orthodox Monastery and the St. John of Kronstadt Gnostic Orthodox Convent) are “monastic communities” of self-styled monks and nuns. They began in Oklahoma City in the 70’s, when their current “Patriarch”—Abbot Bishop George Burke—showed up in town (newly run away in the dead of night from the Holy Transfiguration Orthodox Monastery in Boston, where he had attached himself) calling himself “Swami” something-or-other (I can’t begin to spell it).

He had been raised Church of God-Anderson, near Bloomington, Illinois, gravitated to Chicago and loosely affiliated himself with Roman Catholicism. After a while he began attending the Levitt Street OCA Cathedral, and later the Synod Cathedral, where he got himself baptized by Bishop Seraphim. He then migrated to California, where he joined with Yogananda, and worked P.R. for him. Then he went to Boston to Holy Transfiguration Monastery “to learn Orthodox monasticism”—according to him. In Oklahoma City he started a Hindu community that grew to about nine monks and three nuns. One day, in the late 70’s, he announced to the brethren that they had “outgrown” the spiritual possibilities of Hinduism, and were going to become Christian. They then constituted themselves as the “Holy Protection Old Catholic Benedictine Monastery of the Primitive Observance.” The Swami got himself consecrated a bishop by the self-styled “Old Catholic” bishop at St. Hilarion’s Center in Austin, Texas (although he—the former “Swami”—stated categorically that it was unnecessary, because he had been a Roman Catholic bishop during the Middle Ages in a previous life!).

Many may remember this group as having been featured on various prime-time news shows (P.M. Magazine and Real People) in the late 70’s/early 80’s as constituting the volunteer Fire Department in the little town of Forest Park, Oklahoma, and also as raising ostriches on the grounds of their property. I remember seeing them on television one night while I was living at St. Tikhon’s Seminary in Pennsylvania in about 1980, and wondering just what kind of “order” or “religion” they were. Little did I dream that I would come into intimate contact with them only a year or two later when I was assigned to Oklahoma City by the Antiochian Archdiocese.

In about 1981 “Bishop George” decided that they had outgrown Old Catholicism, and they became “Holy Protection Orthodox Monastery.” They dressed as Orthodox monks and did the services impeccably well, as George had learned in Boston. Then, in 1985 or so, they remodeled their chapel again and became “Coptic”—serving their own version of the Liturgy of St. James and dressing in a form of Coptic monastic garb. They even succeeded in having Indian and Egyptian Coptic Christian clergy concelebrate with them, falsely claiming various kinds of non-Chalcedonian “Apostolic Succession”—claims which those Coptic Christians accepted without investigation.

I walked in on them one day and found them doing a curious service modeled after Hindu worship, in which they were offering fruit and flowers to the icons of Christ and the Theotokos in their chapel. The prayers were an interesting (although sacrilegious and blasphemous) blend of the Trisagion prayers and Hindu worship. During all of this, they maintained a second, secret chapel on the premises. Here they practiced magical evocation and demonolatry. I received into Orthodoxy several lay persons who were a part of their “secret Order”—coming from various Protestant backgrounds. These particular individuals finally began to wonder if they were really “Orthodox” and “Christian” when, on a trip to Texas with the monks, they saw the monks and nuns bow down before the idol in the Hare Krishna temple in Dallas, and Abbot Bishop George refused to bless the food served in the Krishna restaurant because “it was already blessed, having been offered to the idol.” These former members of their cult and one former monk brought to me all of their secret rituals,vestments, history, and associated blasphemous and really frightening materials. It took me well over a year of working with these individuals to get them over their fear of the psychic and spiritual retaliation with which the Abbot had threatened them if they ever revealed the group’s secrets. I still have these materials, and they would be laughable in their sophomoric secret-society silliness if they were not so seriously believed and practiced.

The group left Oklahoma under difficult circumstances in regard to legal problems concerning the estate of a novice (son of a powerful state politician) who died in India. All novices were required to make a pilgrimage to India to interview with, and receive the blessing of, one “Mother Anandamoy”—a Hindu holy woman—who must approve them for membership in the Community.

One of their former monks who had left the group and took a job in Oklahoma City (and personally continued their occult practices privately) once made the statement: “Orthodox Priests are like camels. They carry a cargo of immeasurable worth, with no comprehension of its value.” The Daily Oklahoman, the largest circulation newspaper in the state, once carried a color picture on the front page of one of it’s secondary sections depicting one of their “priests.” He was shown sitting at a table during a regional “Psychic Fair” doing a Tarot Card reading.

On another occasion, after I had learned their secrets and forbade my parishioners to have anything to do with them, Abbot George announced during one of his sermons that he, in a previous life, had been one of the Christian Martyrs who suffered under Diocletian, and I (Fr. Anthony) was the Roman who led him to his martyrdom. He also claims that, during a pilgrimage to visit Mother Anandamoy in India, he was killed in a car accident in New Delhi, but because his “work” here was incomplete, was immediately reincarnated in his body and survived.

“Patriarch George” of the “Gnostic Orthodox Church” admitted in an interview in the Omaha World Herald that his “Patriarchate” covered only 5 or 6 acres. By the way, why they chose Nebraska is a mystery: Abbot Bishop George announced, following a visit to Hawaii for an international peace conference in approximately 1985, that the Goddess of one of the volcanos appeared to him and promised to give him the island if he would relocate his community there.

Apparently that offer was not good enough because, after first relocating in Nebraska, today they are the “Light of Christ Monastery” in California. They claim to be the exclusive remnant of a spurious so-called “Western Orthodox Church” descended from, the Syrian Jacobite (Monophysite) Church of the East.

They have one “iconographer” there who paints all their pictures (please, not icons). All are “blessed” with one of their occult rituals before being shipped, and they support themselves to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars per year selling the demonic things. Many Roman Catholic bookstores sell them but, happily, most Orthodox sellers of religious items have discovered who and what they are and no longer do business with them.

Please don’t buy their pictures—they are spiritually very dangerous.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/monasteryicons.aspx
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
Good listing of Eastern Church Fathers who support Petrine primacy:
Below are writings of the early Church Fathers of the Eastern part of the Catholic Church -- all of whom supported the primacy of the Petrine Ministry.

Jerusalem
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch (363)

Our Lord Jesus Christ then became a man, but by the many He was not known. But wishing to teach that which was not known, having assembled the disciples, He asked, 'Whom do men say that the Son of man is?' ...And all being silent (for it was beyond man to learn) Peter, the Foremost of the Apostles, the Chief Herald of the Church, not using the language of his own finding, nor persuaded by human reasoning, but having his mind enlightened by the Father, says to Him, 'Thou art the Christ,' not simply that, but 'the Son of the living God.' (Cyril, Catech. xi. n. 3)

For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven. (Cyril, Catechetical Lectures A.D. 350).

Peter, the chief and foremost leader of the Apostles, before a little maid thrice denied the Lord, but moved to penitence, he wept bitterly. (Cyril, Catech ii. n. 15)

In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, also the foremost of the Apostles and the key-bearer of the Kingdom of Heaven, healed Aeneas the paralytic in the name of Christ. (Cyril, Catech. xviii. n. 27)
St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)

Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church. (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)

Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy. (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, 893)
Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine (645)

And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine.
Constantinople
St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 387)

Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles, the First in the Church, the Friend of Christ, who received a revelation, not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed art thou, This very Peter and when I name Peter I name that unbroken Rock, that firm Foundation, the Great Apostle, First of the disciples, the First called, and the First who obeyed he was guilty ...even denying the Lord." (Chrysostom, T. ii. Hom)

Peter, the Leader of the choir of Apostles, the Mouth of the disciples, the Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the faith, the Foundation of the confession, the Fisherman of the universe. (Chrysostom, T. iii Hom).

Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church. (Chrys. In illud hoc Scitote)

(Peter), the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ ...he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world. (De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3)

In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, and as intrusted by Christ with the flock ...he first acts with authority in the matter, as having all put into his hands ; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. (Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.)

He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ' 'Simon, Simon,' etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: 'Simon, Simon, etc.' (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in Joan 5).

And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world. (Chrysostom, In Joan. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii)
https://www.fisheaters.com/easternfathers.html

Whole list is worth a read.
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bNQbrmxcwMY" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Excellent video. Some of the key points:
-The USCCB takes anywhere from 70-90 million per year (33-40% of their annual budget) from the U.S. government. Why? Under the auspices of refugee/immigrant aid programs (they get more for state and local municipalities as well). If you want to know why you're bishop or parish priest is suddenly railing hard against DRUMPFT and his "evil" immigration policies you might want to follow the money.

-The "seamless garment" hypothesis put forth by leftist clergy and theologians is bunk.

-Patriotism/nationalism is encouraged by the Church and listed as a sub-virtue under the virtue of Justice put forth by St. Thomas Aquinas.

-Socialism is inherently against Church teaching. They lean heavily on "Rerum Novarum" by Pope Leo XIII for that.

Here is a good article from Taylor Marshall with some money quotes from Rerum Novarum:
Sometimes you hear Christians says, “We can be faithful Catholics and Socialists with regard to economics, because we aren’t atheists like Marx.”

Actually, that’s not true. The Pope’s have spoken explicitly and condemned “Socialism” on theconomic grounds and in terms of social justice.

Socialism was condemned explicitly by Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Rerum Novarum.



I’ve included 5 quotes to help you understand how socialism is situated and condemned by Catholic theology. All the text in red is my commentary:

4. To remedy these wrongs the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich [this has often been the strategy – to employ “covet thy neighbors goods” as a lever for social revolution], are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies. They hold that by thus transferring property from private individuals to the community, the present mischievous state of things will be set to rights, inasmuch as each citizen will then get his fair share of whatever there is to enjoy. But their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that were they carried into effect the working man himself would be among the first to suffer [the Pope says the working man is the first to suffer in Socialism – and history proves His Holiness correct]. They are, moreover, emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, [it is “distorted” to ask the State to ‘transfer private property to the community”] and create utter confusion in the community.

The second quote emphasizes how the wage-earner is abused by Socialism:

5. Socialists, therefore, by endeavoring to transfer the possessions of individuals to the community at large, strike at the interests of every wage-earner [wage-earners are abused], since they would deprive him of the liberty of disposing of his wages [a person has right of liberty to use his wages as he sees fit], and thereby of all hope and possibility of increasing his resources and of bettering his condition in life [the wager earner has the right to seek to better his condition].

The third quote from Rerum Novarum condemns the Socialist principle that children belong to the State and not the father – and Pope Leo XIII quotes Saint Thomas Aquinas to validate his point:

14. “The child belongs to the father,” and is, as it were, the continuation of the father’s personality; and speaking strictly, the child takes its place in civil society, not of its own right, but in its quality as member of the family in which it is born. And for the very reason that “the child belongs to the father” it is, as St. Thomas Aquinas says, “before it attains the use of free will, under the power and the charge of its parents.”(4) The socialists, therefore, in setting aside the parent and setting up a State supervision, act against natural justice [it’s against social justice to replace parental supervision with State supervision], and destroy the structure of the home [hmmm…as socialism takes root, is it not historically evident that the domestic structure crumbles?].

The fourth quote regards the just due to labor:

15. And in addition to injustice, it is only too evident what an upset and disturbance there would be in all classes, and to how intolerable and hateful a slavery citizens would be subjected. The door would be thrown open to envy, to mutual invective, and to discord [This happened in Russia and Cuba. When social change is depended on covetousness of one class against another, hatred and murder follow]; the sources of wealth themselves would run dry, for no one would have any interest in exerting his talents or his industry [Yep, why work hard when you get paid the same for the chump doing nothing? It’s entirely unjust!]; and that ideal equality about which they entertain pleasant dreams would be in reality the levelling down of all to a like condition of misery and degradation [Socialist communities always lead to the poverty of all – not to a stable middle class]. Hence, it is clear that the main tenet of socialism, community of goods, must be utterly rejected [Did you get that? “utterly rejected”], since it only injures those whom it would seem meant to benefit, is directly contrary to the natural rights of mankind [it’s directly against natural law and social justice], and would introduce confusion and disorder into the commonweal. The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property [Private property, not shared property, IS THE FIRST AND FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE to alleviate poverty]. This being established, we proceed to show where the remedy sought for must be found.

The fifth and final quote for today comes from paragraph 17 and shows how Socialists “strive against nature”:

17. It must be first of all recognized that the condition of things inherent in human affairs must be borne with, for it is impossible to reduce civil society to one dead level. Socialists may in that intent do their utmost, but all striving against nature is in vain [Socialists strive against nature!]. There naturally exist among mankind manifold differences of the most important kind; people differ in capacity, skill, health, strength; and unequal fortune is a necessary result of unequal condition [we have different aptitudes, assets, and liabilities]. Such unequality is far from being disadvantageous either to individuals or to the community. Social and public life can only be maintained by means of various kinds of capacity for business and the playing of many parts; and each man, as a rule, chooses the part which suits his own peculiar domestic condition [handicaps do not prevent humans from the dignity of work and production]. As regards bodily labor, even had man never fallen from the state of innocence, he would not have remained wholly idle [work is not evil – it’s part of the pre-sin vocation for humans]; but that which would then have been his free choice and his delight became afterwards compulsory, and the painful expiation for his disobedience. “Cursed be the earth in thy work; in thy labor thou shalt eat of it all the days of thy life.”

So what can we summarize about the condemnation of Socialism from Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum:

Socialism promotes envy between classes. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods.”
The transfer of private property to community property is against nature and justice.
Socialism hurts the working man first and foremost.
A person has the right to improve his social condition through labor. His social condition should not be taken away from him.
Socialism perceives children as belonging to the State chiefly, and thus the State has a prior right over the father of the child with regard to guardianship, education, and labor. This the Pope condemns.
Socialism must be “utterly rejected.”
Socialism leads to “condition of misery and degradation.”
The Pope recognizes that not every human has equal aptitude in this life for wage-earning.
Labor is good and not evil. Socialism wrongly presumes that work is always an exploitation of one class serving another class.
It is evident in these quotes, but especially elsewhere, that those who have acquired private property should share their goods with those who are in need. This is the call to almsgiving that Proverbs and Christ repeatedly exhort us to practice.
Please share this post with others so that they can see that Socialism per se is condemned by Catholic social teaching.

Godspeed,

Dr Taylor Marshall
https://taylormarshall.com/2017/09/catholic-condemnation-socialism-5-papal-quotes.html
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">asking jordan peterson whether he believes god exists or jesus was resurrected gets you the most incomprehensible, incoherent verbiage masquerading as profundity — which is ironically what his ilk accuse "postmodernists" of <a href="https://t.co/EtK6W8T9a7">pic.twitter.com/EtK6W8T9a7</a></p>— ☀️&#55357;&#56384; (@zei_nabq) <a href="https://twitter.com/zei_nabq/status/1074300945272619008?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 16, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

When you've gotten high sniffing your own farts and give the most incoherent faux-intellectual sounding answer imaginable.
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/x2WVcNbDAD0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Must watch video. Fr. Ripperger is a treasure.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">asking jordan peterson whether he believes god exists or jesus was resurrected gets you the most incomprehensible, incoherent verbiage masquerading as profundity — which is ironically what his ilk accuse "postmodernists" of <a href="https://t.co/EtK6W8T9a7">pic.twitter.com/EtK6W8T9a7</a></p>— ☀️������ (@zei_nabq) <a href="https://twitter.com/zei_nabq/status/1074300945272619008?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 16, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

When you've gotten high sniffing your own farts and give the most incoherent faux-intellectual sounding answer imaginable.
Only if you've never watched him explore the idea of God in long form.
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
JP has his wheelhouse: clean your room, dress nice, etc. He's a good introduction to very basic right wing thinking and philosophy and is very useful for like a slovenly weeaboo gamer looking to improve his life but once he gets past his limitations.

I'm sorry, but this overly pretentious tedium:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xrBDSrFDGAk" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Like imagine if the Church Fathers were formulating the Creed in the manner of Jordan Peterson, they'd still be formulating it to this day.

"Credo in unum Deum"

"Whoa, whoa, whoa there guy. I mean first of all we have to determine what we mean by "I" like who am I? Who are you? Who are we? Then we have to think about what we mean by believe. And really, what does 'B-E-L-I-E-V-E' mean? I mean then we have to break down each letter. Where does 'b' come from? I mean these are complex issues. Wash your benis bucko."

I mean he won't answer if he's a Christian or not but only that he probably thinks of God in a Christian way because he's a Westerner and the West is drenched in "Judeo-Christian" thinking and ethics (sidenote: 'Judeo-Christian' is a coward's term, the West was built on Christianity and Christian ethics).

I suspect that he's a some sort of 'cultural Christian' with overly wrought deistic, humanistic conceptions of God. Imagine trying to listen to him explain the Blessed Trinity! I can't even fathom it, I'm already bored and my head hurts.

Does JP believe in the Trinitarian conception of God? Does he believe in the Immaculate Conception? The Virgin Birth? The death and resurrection of Christ? I strongly suspect the answers to that are really long form versions of "no." Thus his theological musings are just sound and fury, signifying nothing.
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
It's like this scene was shot after watching Jordan Peterson try to answer a theological question:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LQCU36pkH7c" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

A man gotta have a code
Messages
9,358
Reaction score
5,352
I wouldn't classify him as a theist. I would expect devout theists to find his answers lacking because he doesn't fully identify as a Judeo-Christian or Catholic Christian.

But he has a lot more to offer than self help for lost young men. The insinuation of anything less shows a lack of understanding or that you haven't given time to his works.

Your insinuation that you're too smart for Peterson is also amusing, but carry on icky, I hope you find the material that challenges you.
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
I don't think I'm "too smart" for JP, I just don't find he has much value for people looking for something beyond basic life advice. I certainly wouldn't turn to him for spiritual, theological, or religious advice or guidance.

I don't think he's stupid, he's obviously very sharp. I have no doubt he's more read and smarter than I am. But I find his overly complex, overly wordy explanations for things to be pretentious and often unnecessary.

I put in the same tier as someone like Ben Shapiro: really good for introduction in to basic life philosophy and deconstructing basic leftist talking points but ultimately getting too attached to them and their philosophies is counterproductive because they are just rabbit holes that lead back into the greater globalist, neoliberal world order. Peterson did work for the United Nations report on "Sustainable Development."
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
I will give credit to JP for this: he is extremely adept at cultivating a strong fan base. Any mild criticism of JP is often met with swift and fierce resistance.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
I will give credit to JP for this: he is extremely adept at cultivating a strong fan base. Any mild criticism of JP is often met with swift and fierce resistance.
The criticism that I object to is that he's a "faux" intellectual. Agree or disagree with him, I don't think there's any arguing that he's an honest-to-goodness ACTUAL intellectual.

I don't turn to him for theology, but the way he connects anthropology and psychology really resonates with me. It's given me a greater appreciation of how we're meant to understand and utilize the mythological portions of the Bible that I've never gotten in my catechism outside of a few excellent professors at Notre Dame.
 

Domina Nostra

Well-known member
Messages
6,251
Reaction score
1,388
Like imagine if the Church Fathers were formulating the Creed in the manner of Jordan Peterson, they'd still be formulating it to this day.

"Credo in unum Deum"

"Whoa, whoa, whoa there guy. I mean first of all we have to determine what we mean by "I" like who am I? Who are you? Who are we? Then we have to think about what we mean by believe. And really, what does 'B-E-L-I-E-V-E' mean? I mean then we have to break down each letter. Where does 'b' come from? I mean these are complex issues. Wash your benis bucko."

The early Church did spend decades arguing over extremely minute philosophical details in formulating the creed, but to your point, they obviously they didn't have to argue over the meaning of "I" or "believe." Even "God" was quickly defined as the "Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth" (later "all things visible and invisible"), which is clearly sufficient as the basis of a conversation.

It would be perfectly fair to say, "Yes, I do, but to really make sure we are communicating, we need to further define our terms." That is just good philosophy and is exactly what Socrates and Plato and Aristotle did. But there is clearly a little sophistry and showing-off in JP's answer here. One of the obvious problems with guys like him that lean so heavily on the limitations of language is that they simultaneously rely on the listener's being able to fully understand the sophisticated nuances and subtleties of the language. "When someone asks me if I believe in God, I can't answer this question, because it is not clear what "I" means." really? OK. Well then how did we understand this proposition, which also relies on the term "I"?

Does JP believe in the Trinitarian conception of God? Does he believe in the Immaculate Conception? The Virgin Birth? The death and resurrection of Christ? I strongly suspect the answers to that are really long form versions of "no." Thus his theological musings are just sound and fury, signifying nothing.

I don't follow this part. He might not be Catholic, and you might think this makes him wrong or whatever, but why would his musing be meaningless just because he doesn't come to the Catholic conclusion. Aquinas even came to the non-Catholic conclusion on the Immaculate Conception.

I probably agree with some other criticisms of JP, but I don't get this.
 
Last edited:

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
I don't follow this part. He might not be Catholic, and you might think this makes him wrong or whatever, but why would his musing be meaningless just because he doesn't come to the Catholic conclusion. Aquinas even came to the non-Catholic conclusion on the Immaculate Conception.

I probably agree with some other criticisms of JP, but I don't get this.
St. Thomas's position on the Immaculate Conception evolved throughout his life:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FVe8TFpfttY" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Also, he simply believed that the Blessed Virgin may have for a few seconds incurred the stain of Original Sin before it was wiped away in her mother's womb, which was a somewhat popular alternate theory during the medieval period. It's a bit more nuanced (but still incorrect) position than say a Baptist who believes that Mary was born a sinner, sinned in her life, and had other children.

There's also a large gulf between someone like St. Thomas who held one incorrect theological opinion but still was faithful enough to the Truth to be named a Doctor of the Church and have it mandated that his all theology and philosophy classes in seminaries conform to St. Thomas's philosophy; and someone like Jordan Peterson who can't even give a straightforward answer on whether he believes in God or Christ was resurrected.

It's not just that Peterson is not a Christian, let alone a Catholic, it's that he doesn't appear to have any coherent spiritual or theological foundation and his normal eloquence turns to rambling when talk turns to religion.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
PJ Smith just published an article titled "The direction of integralism in 2019":

We are not living in an integralist moment. Rocked by new revelations in the ongoing abuse crisis, the Church’s public standing is not especially high in the United States and elsewhere. Indeed, it seems as though the liberties for the Church defended by St. Gregory VII against Emperor Henry IV are in jeopardy with numerous state and federal investigations into the Church ongoing. However, we are living in a moment when liberalism seems weaker than usual.

For a brief moment, the electric uncertainty in the air in 2008 returned when the stock market took a precipitous pre-Christmas plunge and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin took the unusual step of announcing that he had spoken with the heads of major U.S. banks and was sure that the banks were liquid and ready to lend. This had the same unhappy feeling as sitting on an airplane and hearing the pilot announce that he had checked with the flight crew and the plane had plenty of fuel and was ready to land safely. The pre-Christmas jolt was followed by a stupendous rally after the Christmas holiday and the crisis did not materialize.

However, the evident weakness of liberalism has led to wider acceptance of anti-liberal thought of all kinds—including Catholic anti-liberalism. As the year winds down, it is worth thinking about what 2019 holds for Catholic anti-liberalism, especially what Catholic anti-liberals ought to do to cement progress made. And there has been significant progress made. What was, not too long ago, a doctrine held by traditionalists and discussed in primarily traditionalist circles is getting wide press. Ross Douthat of the New York Times has addressed it in several columns, and high-profile conferences at Harvard and Notre Dame have gotten coverage at outlets like Public Discourse and Rod Dreher’s blog at The American Conservative. There has been all year a lively debate in Catholic circles about integralism. Joseph Trabbic’s defense of the doctrinal status of the Catholic confessional state at Public Discourse was a response to Robert T. Miller’s critique of the same concept.

On the other hand, anti-liberal Catholicism still encounters significant resistance, particularly in the American Catholic right. We have already said enough about the debacle at First Things over Fr. Romanus Cessario’s review of Fr. Pio Edgardo Mortara’s memoir. While that affair implicated more than mere anti-liberal Catholicism, it was certainly a significant component of the debate. First Things, the vanguard of the fusionist project, has been slow to welcome the return—a return ad fontes—to anti-liberal teaching. They are not alone: the reason why there has been a lively debate all year is because people disagree.

I.

Of course, the disagreements get narrower and narrower. Dr. John Joy’s argument that Quanta cura and Syllabus are infallible is basically unanswerable, and we have not seen anyone try very hard to answer it. The arguments, it seems to us, have fallen along predictable lines. On one hand, you have the argument that Vatican II changed the teaching of Pius IX and Leo XIII with Dignitatis humanae and Gaudium et spes. On the other hand, you have the argument that integralism is somehow impractical or poorly suited for the political problems of 2018. As to the first argument, this is broadly the debate over several issues associated with the Council, and the arguments on both sides are well known.

One would be excused for being of two minds about the progress of the debate into the well worn grooves of the debates over the Second Vatican Council. On one hand, it is always nice to know all the moves of the game before they are played. On the other hand, it seems unlikely to result in any real progress. Everyone knows the various narratives—hermeneutics of rupture and continuity—about the Council and how those narratives incorporate the prior teachings of the Church. Indeed, given how fixed everyone’s positions are, one would be excused for thinking of the descriptions of the tedium of the trenches punctuated with cataclysmic assaults in the great First World War authors like David Jones, Robert Graves, or Wilfred Owen.

It seems to us that the collapse of Catholic fusionism in recent years is necessarily tied up with the dispute over the Council, since most of the fusionists’ arguments are drawn from the Council’s purported outreach (or openness or whatever you want to call it) to non-Catholics. One might even trace the collapse of fusionism to Benedict XVI’s 2005 Christmas address to the Roman Curia, where the “hermeneutic of continuity” was given its most important presentation. Indeed, the erosion of the post-Conciliar consensus embodied by John Paul II seems to have included both the belief that the Council constituted a restart for the Church and the belief that fusionism represents a meaningful political strategy for the Church. Given the significant controversy over other parts of John Paul’s legacy today, it seems unlikely that anyone will pick up the banner and attempt to reconstruct John Paul’s consensus.

II.

A more detailed response to the second point is in order, as it here that we think the central project for anti-liberal Catholicism in 2019 lies. There has been, we think, significant confusion as to what integralism is—or is not. Everyone works off the definition offered by Pater Edmund Waldstein, O.Cist., in his famous “Integralism in Three Sentences,” so we will too. At bottom, integralism concerns the right relationship between the temporal power (the state, let us say) and the Church. Integralism is not a general prescription for Catholic political action, and it definitely is not a plan for individual Catholics. (Except, perhaps, in the rare case when the individual is a monarch or something like that.) That people have latched on to “integralism” as a label for what would have been called Catholic Action once upon a time is hardly surprising. The American bishops have limited their political interventions to a narrow range of issues.

Certainly no one could complain that the American bishops have chosen to emphasize the Church’s teaching on abortion over any number of other questions. Not every moral issue is equivalently weighty. However, at a moment when liberalism is being questioned pretty vigorously, it is unfortunate that there is not really a satisfactory response from the bishops. This is doubly unfortunate when one considers that Pope Francis is an astute critic of modern liberalism and the spiritual sicknesses it cause. There are, of course, voices in the Church that have long upheld the Church’s condemnations of liberalism and supported integralism—here we are thinking most notably of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the Society of St. Pius X. In a very real way, the resurgence of Catholic anti-liberal thought would not have been possible without Lefebvre and the SSPX. (Gabriel Sanchez, at Opus Publicum, has written several posts emphasizing the historical role of Archbishop Lefebvre and the Society of St. Pius X in keeping the anti-liberal flame alive, including a very recent note.)

However, the point is not to litigate the history of integralism since 1965. Instead, we mean to say only that it is understandable that people have transformed the concept of integralism into a broader Catholic anti-liberalism or a new sort of Catholic Action. However, while it is understandable, it leads to all sorts of unwelcome consequences. Notably, there is a tendency to draw integralism’s dogmatic mantle over various political proposals that have very little to do with the strict definition of integralism. A careful reading of Leo XIII’s encyclicals, notably Diuturnum illud and Immortale Dei, would show that the Church has generally refrained from insisting on this or that arrangement, much less the sorts of arrangements that are offered.

III.

On the other hand, what is modern-day integralism if not a part of broader attempt to recover the Church’s political thought? It would be strange to insist that the anti-liberalism of Quanta cura, Syllabus, and Leo’s encyclicals are infallible and irreformable, but then leave the matter at the fairly narrow question of the indirect subordination of the state to the Church. Indeed, the natural consequence of the recovery of integralism in its strict sense is to turn to the other treasures of the Church’s political teaching for guidance. However, it is counterproductive to reduce the entirety of the Church’s political teaching to the concept of integralism, even if only as a convenient shorthand. Integralism, one could say, is not the end of the Church’s perennial political teaching but the beginning.

Of course, turning to the Church’s perennial historical teaching for guidance does not necessarily mean a mere repetition of the content of the teaching documents. Some application of the Church’s teachings to modern problems ought to be done. This is why we say that, in 2019, anti-liberal Catholics ought to start thinking about specific policy proposals. One need not even consider policies specifically in terms of anti-liberal Catholicism. Laws against blasphemy and heresy are, of course, excellent and are well supported historically (after all, Justinian’s Codex begins with a condemnation of heresy). However, there are more political questions to be answered than free speech, blasphemy, and heresy, and it will be necessary to approach at least some of these questions.

It is necessary to emphasize that these questions are separate from the scholarly, technical questions addressed at The Josias. This is not to say that the work done at The Josias is not necessary. However, the philosophical, theological, and historical questions answered there are altogether different than, say, questions of concrete public policy. And it is precisely those questions that anti-liberal Catholics need to start addressing if they are going to continue to stake out a clear position in 2019.

One important contribution in this vein was Mehrsa Baradaran’s piece in support of postal banking at American Affairs. Baradaran, a law professor at the University of Georgia, makes the case that America’s banks prefer to serve the middle class and the wealthy, leaving America’s working poor in the hands of usurers. The response Baradaran offers is postal banking; that is, having the United States Postal Service make available retail financial services like savings accounts and small loans. Baradaran argues that, while America’s retail banks have deserted many communities, the Post Office has not. Additionally, as a public enterprise, the Postal Service could offer these services at a discount compared to the big banks and the usurers. Postal banking is widely used in western countries, and there is a history of it in the United States—that is to say: it is not a reckless, extreme idea.

The argument in support of postal banking can be made without reference to the Church; however, it is not hard to imagine a Catholic twist on this proposal. To be sure, the usurious interest charged by payday lenders is bad for the economy. However, the Church condemns usury. One could argue—we would say that one must argue—that an integralist regime would not tolerate usury. Postal banking, therefore, could represent one important step toward the sorts of institutions one could find in an integralist regime. One could also turn to the arguments about work advanced by the popes, notably John Paul II in Laborem exercens, when he sketches a connection between work, wages, and the universal destination of goods. It is trivial—though it does need to be said—that you cannot share in the universal destination of goods as fully as you ought to if a significant portion of your wages are eaten up by usurious interest payments or excessive fees.One can imagine similar, similarly detailed arguments on any of a whole host of issues.

One can also engage in detailed strategic arguments like Adrian Vermeule’s “Integration from Within,” also published by American Affairs. Maybe you agree with Vermeule—maybe you don’t. However, it seems to us that strategic arguments like Vermeule’s are implicitly at least as strong an answer to the charge of irrelevance as policy proposals like Baradaran. If one disagrees with Vermeule, setting forth in detail the bases of the disagreement and an alternate strategy would be an excellent contribution to the discussion.

Perhaps another way of putting all of this is to say that Catholic anti-liberalism has made its doctrinal case. It is now time to start making a practical case. After all, politics is eminently the exercise of practical reason.
 

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,009
Reaction score
5,047
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You’re actually only "Catholic" if you’re in communion with Rome. Otherwise you have to call it "sparkling Anglicanism".</p>— Chateaubriand ن (@Chateaubriand__) <a href="https://twitter.com/Chateaubriand__/status/1079784146090844161?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 31, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

ickythump1225

New member
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
323
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If this guy becomes the next Pope, I'm going full trad Catholic. <a href="https://t.co/5VOMZx0oi2">pic.twitter.com/5VOMZx0oi2</a></p>— Paul Joseph Watson (@PrisonPlanet) <a href="https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1081715847146676225?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 6, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
Andrew Willard Jones--Director of the St. Paul Center, Steubenville prof, and author of Before Church and State--just created a new integralist blog titled "The Postliberal Moment". Here's the first post:

Something has changed. As the flurry of recent articles and books on liberalism and its discontents attests, the stability of the intellectual framework through which American Catholics have made sense of our place in modern society seems to have been lost. We find ourselves disoriented and looking for stable ground but discover on all sides simply more shifting sand. The tone and content of political discourse is no longer compatible with a Christian sensibility, our social doctrine is increasingly irreconcilable with the interpretations of economic reality on offer, and what is far worse, our ecclesiology of love and communion bears little resemblance to our widespread experiences of corruption, fragmentation, and loneliness. Little by little, the hoops that we’re asked to jump through in order to remain in the mainstream have been moved higher and farther away until we’re not so sure the leaps are worth the effort, or, in honesty, the humiliation. It is not an exaggeration, I think, to describe the situation as a crisis, and as is appropriate to such a moment, we are again asking fundamental questions surrounding the proper relationship between Church and State, between religious and secular pursuits, between morality and politics, and it seems that as far as potential answers go, just about everything is back on the table.

Nevertheless, the categories of liberal discourse have largely remained intact. We argue about the boundaries between Church and State, but rarely consider the possibility that these categories themselves are our problem. We talk a great deal about protecting religious liberty, but very little about the possibility that the modern concept of religion itself (not to mention that of liberty) is integral to Christianity’s diminution. We ask whether capitalism is the best economic system, but we don’t consider that perhaps the very idea of “economic systems” presupposes a liberal understanding of the social order. We are talking a great deal about liberalism, but very little about the possibility that by remaining within liberal discourse, we are unwittingly reinforcing our own marginalization. Can we offer a critique of liberalism that remains bound by liberal concepts? I think not. To remain within the liberal discourse of rights, laws, states, economics, freedom, private and public is not merely to render ourselves unable to articulate a coherent opposition to liberal modernity, it is far worse. We are in fact engaged in a massive, yet obscured, project of begging the question. Our criticism buttresses its object.

Within the meta-narrative of emancipation that underwrites liberalism, Christians are cast as the losing side. No amount of maneuvering can change that. Indeed, such maneuvering is precisely our role in the drama. We are cast to fight a rear-guard action: we steadily lose ground, but nonetheless put up a stubborn resistance. In the liberal march to freedom, we are the ever-retreating but necessary tyrants; the enemies of human rights against whom the freedom fighters heroically contend; the defenders of dogma against whom the courageous scientists struggle; the stuffy prudes against whom the free-spirited youth must battle. We have all seen multiple versions of this movie – in fact, this is the plot of nearly all our cultural productions.

If this is indeed our role, new tactics won’t save us. By devising new ways to “turn back the clock” or putting forth new arguments about freedom and rights or religion and the state, we are just learning the new lines we need to continue to play the losing side in a liberal script, acted out on a set constructed of modern concepts. To view ourselves as the retreating good guys is simply our character.

Even when Catholics are at their most anti-liberal, even when we dare to venture arguments in favor of Confessional States, we stay in character. Indeed, the allure of the Confessional State is a part of the pathos of that character and we are never more recognizable within the storyline than when we find ourselves defending the alliance of crown and altar against individual liberty and freedom of conscience. As a part of the twisting plot of the drama, the liberals have, of course, suspected us of being secretly integralists all along. The script is written, the parts are cast, the set is built, the play is being performed. We’re trapped.

I think there is a way out. But it requires that we both deconstruct the modern drama and propose an alternative. We must rewrite history and so develop a new narrative that supports an alternate set of categories which do not cast Christianity as merely a religious actor, but rather positions Christianity as the stage on which history itself is performed. We must come to understand our world through a larger narrative within which the liberal epoch is a diverting sub-plot. If we do so, Christians can come to view ourselves not as an embattled minority on the losing side of history, but as protagonists in a missionary insurgency.

The time is ripe for the launching of such a postliberal insurgency because liberalism is failing. America’s language and categories, our habits of thought and action, our narratives and myths, our positive social structures have all been built by liberal modernity in order to live in liberal modernity; and they don’t work anymore. Everyone knows this. Even as we remain trapped in liberal language games, our discourse feels wrong, mistaken, inadequate, if not downright deceptive.

A true Christian reform must offer a meta-critique of liberalism. Most critiques of liberalism cede too much ground. They argue things like: a society built on atomized individuals cannot adequately pursue common goods. And in so doing, they concede that liberal society is in fact made up of self-sufficient individuals. This won’t work. If liberals are wrong, it is not because of their bad policy positions; our critique can’t be that a society of self-sufficient individuals is unhealthy. Instead, we should maintain that a society built on atomized individuals is a fantasy. It is impossible. The liberal language of autonomous individuals independently pursuing their rational interests is a rhetorical strategy masking an ugly reality; a deformed and self-destructive community. But a community nonetheless. Instead of talking about moral relativism, Christians ought to insist that every human interaction is governed by morality: not that every interaction ought to be so governed, but that every interaction is so governed, concretely, in society, now, always. We ought to show how liberalism constructs and enforces its own invasive code of conduct and that its selective pretenses toward relativism are integral to this disciplinary regime. Rather than arguing for a Confessional State, we ought to argue that liberalism is the Confessional State par excellence. We ought to argue that both the notion of religion as made up of distinct confessions and of politics as monopolized into States are products of liberalism’s self-construction. Confessional States are a liberal concept: they are liberalism’s evil twin, the dark side. We ought to want neither confessions nor States, and what is more we ought to deny that a discourse that relies upon such categories is capable of really understanding the social landscape. They may help us understand liberalism, indeed, but not reality.

In this way, a real critique of liberalism must be a deconstruction of its lexicon and the simultaneous construction of a new lexicon which is capable of getting the upper hand on liberal concepts. Because the meaning of language is always emerging from narratives, the construction of a postliberal lexicon and the telling of a postliberal story are intimately connected.

Such a story can be told. Modernity was something that the Church did. It was the work of the baptized. Europe was not invaded by outsiders. It was not colonized by a foreign power that imported an alien world-view or strange social structures. Christendom built modernity. Christianity, therefore, has the resources to situate liberal modernity within a bigger story that eliminates its claims to be a definitive discourse. Such a re-articulation of modernity in terms of Christianity is indispensable if Christendom’s (mostly heretical) modern age is to be reformed into Christendom’s next, (mostly orthodox) postliberal age -- an age of reform and a new Christian civilization.

This re-articulation is imperative because, though the baptized may have built modernity, it is not clear that they will be the builders of what is constructed on its rubble.

Modernity is caught between a perversion of Christian rationality that manifests itself in “unaided reason”, and a revived paganism—a heroic and romantic valorization of power and glory. The first tendency was parasitic on Christian orthodoxy, and while it undermined the foundations of faith, it has itself weakened along with its host: without the faith that maintains its orientation and objects, reason, as we have seen in postmodernism, turns on itself. The second tendency toward paganism has gained ground. It is the more dangerous of the two because paganism is capable of independence, of a coherent (though horrible) civilization. It absorbs what’s left of reason, transforming it into mere technology, mere instrumental power. What comes next, if it is not Christian, will not be some sort of enlightened, secular, post-historical, technological utopia. It will likely be paganism without the trappings of Christian morality and without the pretenses of enlightened rationality.

Such a paganism finally broken free from the modern project would be no simple post-modern, rational appropriation of Nietzsche but something new. Modernity is now being “re-formed” as such a pagan regime, complete with a narrative that includes Christianity as a relative historical phenomenon: the postmodern can be connected to the ancient in a single plotline. This is happening. The components are being formed. The world-view is being developed. Right and left are racing toward this conclusion, feeding their constituents ever less Christian problems and ever less Christian solutions. If Christianity doesn’t act, the lexicon of liberalism is likely to be replaced with one of pagan power. A language and so a world of violence is being built, one greedy person at a time, one pornographic film at a time, one racist at a time, one abortion at a time, one intolerant partisan at a time. If it comes to fruition, this civilization will be powerful and it will have no place for Christianity.

This is what Christian postliberalism is up against: will human liberty be reconnected to the indwelling rationality of creation itself, or will it finally become eclipsed in the pure power of the will? One thing it will not be is the liberty of the French Revolution or of John Stuart Mill. That age is over. Nobody cares about that notion of freedom anymore. Most people, I think, don’t even know what it is.

Christianity must emerge out of the ruins of modernity with a new vision; a new proposal for a new civilization, rooted in and consistent with its deepest traditions. What such a vision might be is hard to say, but it cannot be a shoring up of modernity. Conventional conservative attempts to defend disinterested rationality, to buttress the integrity of private realms of conscience and religion, to preserve contemporary structures of property and power will fail.

Christianity has deep resources from which to draw. Christianity has the depths from which to offer a meta-critique and the solutions that can save all that was good and right in modernity. If modernity is indeed a Christian heresy, then orthodoxy contains its strengths and even its pathos, but without its exaggerated errors. Within a recasting of the liberal lexicon in terms of a Christian lexicon, liberalism itself, like the Christian heresies that have come before it, is capable of some measure of redemption.

We are launching Postliberal Thought in order to provide a place for this work. We understand the project to be the work of generations and we are fully aware that by breaking free from the dominant paradigm, we thrust ourselves into areas of intellectual instability and obscurity. Much of what we propose will often no doubt turn out to be mistaken; many of the roads we go down will no doubt turn out to be dead-ends. Postliberal Thought is therefore a place for open-minds and forgiving spirits. We hope to forge a community of Christian thinkers who are animated not by certainty concerning what to do or what to think, but by the hope that we, humbled in prayer before God, will find a way forward.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
First Things just published a book review by Gladden Pappin titled "Liberalism Against the Church":

Liberalism, says Helena Rosenblatt, has grown ineffective as it has forgotten the role that public morality, virtue, and conceptions of the common good played in its development. In order to reconnect with these sources while illuminating the history of liberalism itself, she narrates what she calls a word history, an account of “how liberals defined themselves and what they meant when they spoke about liberalism.” What emerges is a picture of the liberalism “virtually obsessed with the need for moral reform” from its birth at the Revolution of 1789 throughout its development, primarily in France and later in Germany and the United States.

Rosenblatt gives us a history of liberalism from the standpoint of liberals themselves. It is a story of liberalism’s liberality and generosity, a story by liberals for liberals, told just at the time that liberalism’s weaknesses have been exposed by a new, robust nonliberalism. This story diverges from the one that mid-century liberals fashioned to account for their own success, when they patched together the old common law and the political philosophy of John Locke to set liberal institutions on an individualist foundation. Later attempts to craft a liberalism neutral on the content of the public good were, in Rosenblatt’s view, unfaithful to liberalism’s origins. Hers is no longer the story of a triumphant liberalism, but of an endangered liberalism in need of ressourcement.

This is only the self-congratulating half of the story. For the early French liberals, moral reform meant preserving the anti-ecclesiastical gains of the Revolution: écrasez l’infâme met with initial success, and those successes had to be preserved by separating morality from ecclesiastical instruction. “For liberals like Madame de Staël and Benjamin Constant,” Rosenblatt observes, “the Church simply could not be trusted to promote the moral regeneration of the republic.” This renewal was not a straightforward or uncontested goal of the liberals; instead, it was a kind of code for upending all remaining elements of ecclesiastical authority. Liberalism did not have to offer a comprehensive way of life. It simply had to define traditional ecclesiastical authority as the locus of moral degeneration in order to establish itself as the representative of “moral regeneration.”

Counterrevolutionary writers pointed out this sleight of hand. Louis de Bonald criticized the transformation of liberal from describing generosity to justifying attacks on the Church. Rosenblatt bristles at these criticisms, complaining that Pierre Manent’s intellectual history of liberalism, for example, “is the now two-hundred-year-old Catholic critique repackaged.” But while Rosenblatt interprets early French liberalism in the light of “liberality” to inspire a similar recasting of contemporary liberalism, liberalism’s anti-ecclesiastical stance lies at the heart of her story. “What France needed,” the liberals thought, “was not Catholicism but an enlightened religion that fostered the qualities of mind and character necessary for good citizenship.”

The anti-ecclesiastical stance grew even stronger during the Bourbon Restoration and particularly under Charles X. “Liberals protested loudly, more than ever convinced that the Catholic Church was their most formidable enemy,” she writes. “It has been estimated that over the span of seven years, 2.7 million anticlerical books were published, including Constant’s De la religion.” Whatever its long-term ambitions, liberalism in its initial stages required a wholesale reengineering of ecclesiastical establishments where they stood in the way, and an adversarial stance against retrograde theological and ecclesiastical tendencies wherever they appeared.

Amid the countless other variations on liberalism, this anti-ecclesiastical stance remained constant, a sine qua non of all subsequent developments within liberal politics. Rosenblatt shows well the variety of liberal stances on matters such as the desirability of revolutions, the question of empire, and the state’s role in directing economic development and responding to social ills. The “great majority of nineteenth-century liberals” accepted a range of state intervention in the economy and “denounced selfishness and *individualism at every opportunity.” Yet even in lands such as Germany and Britain that had already confronted the question of the Church during the Reformation, liberals continued to take anti-ecclesiastical and anti-Catholic stances. Authors of the Staats-Lexikon, “a veritable compendium of liberal beliefs,” not only declared the pope the “worst enemy of the German nation,” but also attacked the “superstition, darkness, ignorance, hierarchical despotism and intolerance” of revanchist Protestantism.

Rosenblatt frequently gives this anti-ecclesiastical fixation a wholesome gloss. While admitting that liberals longed to replace the established churches with what J. C. L. de Sismondi called a “rational and liberal religion,” she complains that the idea that liberals rejected the common good “is what their enemies said about them, not what they said about themselves.” Yet if liberals were fighters from the beginning, presumably it matters what their opponents thought. Notwithstanding liberal discourse about morality and the common good, in practice liberals sought the disestablishment and replacement of the common goods that had grounded prerevolutionary society.

In her tour of the anti-ecclesiastical elements of liberalism, *Rosenblatt in fact provides the material needed for a more balanced story of liberalism. But the fuller account is less encouraging for those inclined to attempt a ressourcement. If liberalism’s “moral” devotion is oriented toward replacing traditional institutions, then it will always adopt an aggressive, imperialist stance. Her narrative of liberalism is so one-sided that her list of its victims excludes its primary foe: the Church. While she plaintively admits that liberals “were capable of excluding entire groups of people from their liberal vision,” she does not consider the ecclesiastical establishment unfairly excluded.

Liberalism’s project of moral edification culminated in France with what Rosenblatt calls a “battle” to wrest control of education from the Church and replace it with a model inspired by the American public school. “It is not hard to see,” she writes, “that the liberal system of education championed by the educational reformers was overtly anti-Catholic. Its designers never hid the fact that its purpose was to detach the population from priests.” This transformed French education along specifically liberal lines, orienting schools toward “free thought” instead of scholasticism and “self-government” instead of the classical notions of duty of state and, properly understood, obedience.

Liberal schools emphasized qualities such as industriousness and creativity that would enable the construction of a society oriented around a progressively expanding liberty alongside the rational, technological control of nature. Rosenblatt shows that liberals countenanced all manner of state action beyond those permitted under strict laissez-faire approaches. Nevertheless, their actions still aimed to bring about a political situation directed neither by ecclesiastical concerns nor by traditional ways of life but rather by aspirations toward an ever more liberal future.

It is ironic that Rosenblatt’s effort to recover a liberal “morality” *oriented toward the common good comes at a time of heightened moralism on the part of contemporary liberalism. To be sure, today’s liberals exercise their moralism on behalf of increasingly narrow causes. But liberal moralism is not exactly lacking today.

The political development of Europe,” Pierre Manent once wrote, “is understandable only as the history of answers to problems posed by the Church.” The Lost History of Liberalism reinforces Manent’s observation even while Helena Rosenblatt colors the goals of early liberalism in golden hues. However noble early liberalism’s project of moral improvement may have been, its self-perception always included the specific aim of overthrowing the Church. As that institution has suffered under liberal advances, so has the morality and liberality that liberals claim they want to secure.

Though this is hardly its intention, The Lost History of Liberalism offers a counterpoint to the hopes of Catholics seeking rapprochement with liberalism. In spite of her best efforts to make liberalism’s interest in public morality stand on its own two feet, Rosenblatt shows that liberal public morality is always in opposition to the accounts of morality and public life offered by the Church. Liberals have never been seriously interested in the ways Catholics have sought to make peace with liberalism. The more liberals return to their roots, the more apparently shared ground will give way. The future lies in anti-ecclesiastical liberal ressourcement on the one hand, and anti-liberal ecclesiastical ressourcement on the other.

That last paragraph is clarifying.
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Gonna print this tweet out and use it as exhibit A for my talk to the local council entitled, “They’re Going to Hate Us Anyway, So Why DON’T We Go Paramilitary?” <a href="https://t.co/n2HYzdxCiN">https://t.co/n2HYzdxCiN</a></p>— Fr. Brendon Laroche (@padrebrendon) <a href="https://twitter.com/padrebrendon/status/1083119054678884352?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 9, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If the KoC top brass has any brains at all, they'll lean into this. I'd join in a second if they actually adopted a paramilitary integralist posture. Plus, Catholic military aesthetic is unbeatable:

14-facts-polish-winged-hussars-min-770x437.jpg
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vf9EKsTUuEA" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Top