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wizards8507

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">That feeling when your son is excommunicated from the catholic church. <br>Hans and Margarethe Luther (1527) <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Reformation500?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Reformation500</a> <a href="https://t.co/ujQUaxJghg">pic.twitter.com/ujQUaxJghg</a></p>— Rebecca Rideal (@RebeccaRideal) <a href="https://twitter.com/RebeccaRideal/status/925275501488476161?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 31, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Whiskeyjack

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That's not very ecumenical of you, wiz... but in the spirit of this historic anniversary:

The abstract of a recent paper titled "The Political Economy of Secularization and the Protestant Reformation":

DNFMBo3WkAIhX1C.jpg


Here's an OpEd by Alan Fimister in The Daily Caller titled "Martin Luther Is Probably in Hell":

One might imagine that to write an article with this title is presumptuous in the extreme. But I do not make this assertion based on the wicked acts of Martin Luther — his division of Christendom, his hatred of the Jews, his licensing of polygamy, his accusations of adultery against the Savior, his railing, his curses or his insults — but upon the simple principle of faith alone. For faith has the power to wipe out any sin by the precious blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but without faith we are lost.

It may surprise many readers to know that the Catholic Church teaches, as Dogma, justification by faith alone. She teaches this in the sense that she holds it to be impossible for anyone to be rendered acceptable in the sight of God unless and until they receive the supernatural virtue of living faith.

Furthermore, she teaches that nothing done before receiving this virtue can in any way merit justification in the sight of God nor can anything done apart from faith do so. What then is faith? Considered in itself faith is defined by the Catholic Church as “a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source by which assent, because of the authority of the supremely truthful God, we believe to be true that which has been revealed and attested to by a personal God, our Creator and Lord.” It is for this reason that Blessed John Henry Newman felt able to say, “Protestants, generally speaking, have not faith.”

A shocking statement, you might suppose, but it follows from the definition of faith just given. If the reason that we believe what God has revealed is that God can neither deceive nor be deceived, then knowingly to doubt or deny a single proposition thus revealed is implicitly to deny that God has spoken at all and so to divest oneself of the saving virtue of faith. So that we might know what God has revealed and assent to it upon the strength of God’s own veracity, it is necessary that the means by which His revelation is conducted to us be endowed with infallibility. The Church teaches that every statement consigned to writing by the human authors of scripture, in the sense they intended when they wrote these books, is inspired by God and free from all error.

Nevertheless, for us to believe the saving words of this holy text on God’s authority, we must also have a divinely guaranteed interpreter. Otherwise, the one who receives Holy Scripture will be believing nothing more than his own interpretation guided by his own speculations; he will not have faith and he will remain in his sins. Catholics therefore “accept Sacred Scripture according to that sense which Holy Mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures” nor do they ever “receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers.” To stand alone without this authority is to have faith in oneself alone.

Martin Luther stood upon two principles: justification by faith alone and the Bible alone as the principle of true doctrine. The second of these principles betrays the fact that what he meant by faith is not the faith the Church proclaims, not the life-giving message of Jesus Christ, but a figment of his own invention. No doubt this is why he felt able to remove books from scripture itself and to falsify his translation of St. Paul’s greatest epistle with no better excuse than “Dr. Martin Luther will have it so.”

While we pray for God’s mercy upon Luther, we must conclude, in the words of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, that whosoever “knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

And for wooly and GK:

DNcXoLkV4AA3-JM.jpg
 

zelezo vlk

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Since today is the 31st, here's an ironic video created by a Lutheran pastor.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lM9BR55nA2U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

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Reminder: Today, All Saints Day, is a Holy Day of Obligation. All Catholics must go to Mass, save for grave matter.
 

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The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "Who Won the Reformation?":

The Western world has not known quite what to do with the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. The powerful Protestant establishments that would have once celebrated the quincentenary wholeheartedly are mostly weak or impotent or gone, and while the disreputable sort of Calvinist and the disreputable sort of Catholic still brawl online, in official ecclesiastical circles the rule is to speak of the Reformation in regretful tones, like children following a bad divorce who hope that now that many years have passed the divided family can come together for a holiday, or at least an ecumenical communion service.

Meanwhile, the secular intelligentsia can only really celebrate the Reformation’s anniversary in instrumental terms. From the perspective of official liberalism, most of the Reformation fathers were fundamentalists and bigots, even worse in some cases than the Catholics they opposed. So for the Lutheran and Calvinist rebellions to be worth memorializing, it must be as a means to secularizing ends — the liberation of the individual from the shackles of religious authority, which allowed scientific inquiry and capitalism to flourish, made secular politics possible, and ultimately permitted liberalism to triumph.

Looking back through the chronoscope of religious history, then, the modern secular liberal is a Leninist: He watches Christendom tear itself apart and thinks, the worse the better, since only out of the wars of religion can his own society be born.

Of course this is a harsh way of putting it. But a 500th anniversary is a good time to be a little bit harsh about the world we all take for granted, a world that was built on the wreckage created by Christian civilization’s civil war. Neither the Protestants nor Catholics won that war between the faiths: The instrumentalists did, the Machiavellians, the Westerners who wanted political and economic life set free from the meddling of troublesome priests and turbulent prophets. And so 500 years after Luther threaded his 95 tweets together and pinned them to a door in Wittenberg, it’s their propaganda that deserves the most scrutiny, the most skepticism, the strongest doubts.

At the heart of that propaganda is a simple story about authority and the individual. First, this story goes, Protestantism replaced the authority of the church with the authority of the Bible. Then, once it became clear that nobody could agree on what the Bible meant, the authority of conscience became pre-eminent — and from there we entered naturally (if with some bloody resistance from various reactionary forces) into the age of liberty, democracy and human rights.

The problem with this story is that like all propaganda it edits selectively and treats the experience of various fortunate groups as the measure of a much messier reality. The Reformation and its wars did indeed diminish religious authority, secularize politics and allow certain kinds of individualism to flourish. But they also empowered (and were exploited and worsened by) the great new gods of modernity, the almighty market and the centralizing state, which claimed their own kind of authority over everyday life, making the divided churches into handmaidens or scapegoats, and using Christianity as an excuse for plunder rather than a restraining counterforce to worldly lust.

This simultaneous expansion of commercial power and state power made the Western world more orderly and rationalized and much, much wealthier. It also licensed cruelty and repression on an often extraordinary scale. It produced some remarkable experiments in religious tolerance, our own Constitution among them. It also encouraged secular inquisitions that made the original look tame. It opened new opportunities for the rational and industrious. It also weakened or destroyed the places where one might retreat from commerce or refuse the world. It led to huge leaps forward in health and life expectancy for all. It also brutalized religious resisters, stacked non-European bodies like cordwood … and eventually revived the worst tendencies of the old Christendom, anti-Semitism and millenarianism, in fascist and Communist experiments that added the genocide of millions to the modern state’s list of crimes.

Even in our republic’s mother country, England, which escaped some of the worst horrors of the Continent, the Reformation’s religious conflict ended in victories for a brutal centralizing form of power. It was religious fanaticism that burned heretics and stripped altars and briefly raised up a Puritan theocracy. But the rapaciousness of Henry VIII and the police state of Elizabeth I, the evisceration of the old Catholic culture and the suppression of popular protest and dissent, the ethnic and religious cleansings carried out on England’s Celtic fringe — these were very modern projects, and their purpose wasn’t liberty but subjugation, not religious tolerance so much as the elimination of any religious challenge to the state.

In Hilary Mantel’s popular novels about Reformation England, “Wolf Hall” and “Bring Up the Bodies,” the figure of Thomas Cromwell, Henry VIII’s enforcer, is presented as a sympathetic proto-modern alternative to the dueling zealotries of popery and Calvinism — more broad-minded and humane and secular, less bigoted and ascetic.

But Cromwell was also a ruthless killer who served a cruel tyrant. Which makes him an apt choice, even if Mantel does not intend it, to embody the secularizing forces that triumphed over Protestants as well as Catholics — because Cromwellism, mass murder in the service of secular power and commercial wealth, has just as strong a claim as liberty or individualism to define the world that succeeded Christendom’s collapse.

Here the objection will be that, yes, the road to modern liberalism was a bloody one, but it all could have been much worse. And indeed, worse could be imagined. It is possible to imagine a world where Western Christendom remained united but Europe refused the gifts of science and the church sank into permanent corruption, with Ottoman armies delivering a coup de grâce. It is also possible to imagine a world where an undivided Roman church harnessed science and technology to its own sort of religious-totalitarian ends, and became a theocratic boot stamping on a human face, forever.

So perhaps the modern world as we know it was the best we could do, the only path to liberty and pluralism and mass prosperity, however many Cromwells it required to get here.

But my own (biased, Catholic) guess is that given the technological and social changes already at work in early modern Europe, the great new modern powers, the state and the commercial interest, would have come to bestride the world no matter what happened to Christian unity. So a church that remained undivided probably wouldn’t have been able to strangle modern science or capitalism in the crib even had it wanted to. But it might have served as a stronger moral check on the new powers, a stronger countervailing force against greed and secular absolutism, than the divided churches that Europe had instead.

It is hard to read the history of Western colonial ventures, in which for hundreds of years it was mostly the intensely religious (as compromised and corrupted as their churches often were) that remonstrated against mass murder and enslavement, that sought to defend natives and establish norms for their protection, and not suspect that a still-united Western church would have found it easier to turn its moral critiques into more effective practical restraints. And it is harder still to read the history of the 20th century and have any kind of confidence that the world made by Thomas Cromwell and his successors was better than a world where Protestants and Catholics did not divide.

Indeed in secular liberalism there is an implicit tribute to this possibility, a kind of yearning for a vanished Christendom, that arose in part as a response to the horrifying place where secular politics ended up last century. What are our pan-national institutions, our United Nations and European Union, all our interlocking NGOs, if not an attempt to recreate a kind of ecclesiastical power, a churchlike form of sovereignty, on the basis of thinner, less dogmatic but still essentially metaphysical ideas — the belief in human dignity and human rights?

As the church did before its crackup, and might have done thereafter, these modern ecclesiastical agencies do have some gentling effect. But they are a made-up religion whose acolytes at some level know it — and the thinness of their metaphysics, their weak claim on human loyalties, makes them mostly just a pleasing cloak over the dark power that’s actually stabilized the modern world, the terrifying threat of nuclear war.

I’m being grim on purpose; more optimistic views than this are possible. But since the unity of Christendom isn’t coming back any time soon and our own society has a thousand incentives to lie to itself about how religious division was for the best, it’s worth considering the dark version of the long view.

The modern world offers many gifts, and the fact that Catholics and Protestants now dwell together without bloodshed is certainly one of them. But to assume that this division was a necessary means to a happy secular and liberal ending is to assume that we actually know the ending — even though the story so far has given us many novel forms of tyrannies as well as greater liberties, and the price of the modern experiment has been millions of unremembered dead.

Douthat seems to think that liberalism was inevitable, and the best counter-factual that we could reasonably have hoped for was a united Christendom that better checked some of its worst impulses. I'm not prepared to concede that much, but the article is otherwise pretty excellent.
 

zelezo vlk

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The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "Who Won the Reformation?":



Douthat seems to think that liberalism was inevitable, and the best counter-factual that we could reasonably have hoped for was a united Christendom that better checked some of its worst impulses. I'm not prepared to concede that much, but the article is otherwise pretty excellent.
I figured you'd post that article. Awfully gloomy, but that works for the season.

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zelezo vlk

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wizards8507

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It won't actually be a mass. It'll just be a glorified prayer service. This sort of hollow ecumenism is the hobby horse of many aging liberal clerics. Felt banners, folk hymns, etc. We've seen this sort of thing before.
At this level? If the reports are true, this is Cardinal Sarah's secretary going around Cardinal Sarah himself and reporting directly to Francis.
 

zelezo vlk

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At this level? If the reports are true, this is Cardinal Sarah's secretary going around Cardinal Sarah himself and reporting directly to Francis.

Yep. That's how dumb politics work (the Curia has never been immune to this). The Mass is no Mass without the priest confecting the sacrament. That's why even the "communion services" led by deacons using hosts from separate Masses cannot be called Mass.

Unrelated: Solemn Mass at the parish tonight for All Souls. Gonna be dope
 

wizards8507

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My friend Pat took a turn. My friend Disrey got new specs. My friend Inapro drives a Prius with his behind neighbor.

Okay, so The Office quote isn't a perfect analogue, but I feel like you guys have a habit of looking at all of these things as inconsequential one-offs. At what point do you start growing concerned at the pattern?
 

zelezo vlk

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My friend Pat took a turn. My friend Disrey got new specs. My friend Inapro drives a Prius with his behind neighbor.

Okay, so The Office quote isn't a perfect analogue, but I feel like you guys have a habit of looking at all of these things as inconsequential one-offs. At what point do you start growing concerned at the pattern?

I've got bigger things to worry about than some aging hippy liberal Vatican official trying to keep the spirit of Vatican II from suffocating.
 

zelezo vlk

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Another article by Matthew Walther where he gets on my bandwagon.

Why are you already celebrating Christmas?

The orange boxes of Nerds and Fun Dip have barely found their way into the clearance bins. Old ladies have scarcely begun to arrange their made-in-China woven cornucopias on the mantles of their gas fireplaces alongside the plastic gourds and model turkeys. Christmas is eight weeks away, but on All Saints Day — the day after Halloween — I saw a sign outside a local bar advertising a "Christmas Bazaar" at what is technically my parish church scheduled for Nov. 4.

This was, if nothing else, a welcome reminder of why my family is not registered at Immaculate Conception. Already the sectaries of the Santa cult are preparing for their annual feast of grotesque GDP-boosting consumption, and we want as little to do with it as possible. Never mind the inherent iniquity of pretending that the birth of Our Lord has anything to do with snowmen or eggnog or Macy's or some late chubby 19th-century American literary character. It isn't even Advent yet.


Like "autumn creep," the encroachment of Christmas upon the final Sundays after Pentecost and the four weeks of Advent is one of those unfortunate results of living in a society in which we allow corporate marketing departments to set the tempo of our existence. The high consumer spending that accompanies Halloween and follows Thanksgiving must begin earlier and earlier each year, and the birth of Jesus Christ must be made synonymous with the purchase of certain products and a rather banal color palette, which is why Starbucks is already selling its bad coffee in red, green, and white paper cups.

Whatever happened to waiting?

Advent is a season of solemn but cheerful expectation, of self-abnegation, in which we prepare our souls to make them meet dwelling places for "the Lord the King who is to come." At Mass Catholics omit the Gloria. As Christ's coming approaches on the third Sunday of Advent, which I have long thought the most beautiful day on the Church's calender, the sacred ministers wear rose-colored vestments. During Advent, the priest almost begs, saying, "Lord, raise up thy power and come." It is as though, as Cardinal Wiseman once put it, "we feared our iniquities would prevent His being born."

All of which should explain why I have never understood the so-called "War on Christmas." That President Trump or anyone else would find it objectionable for a clerk not to bid him farewell with a "Merry Christmas" on Dec. 3 or 13 or even 23 seems to me utterly baffling. We have days and weeks and months of opportunities to remind one another that we have just commemorated the birth of Jesus Christ. Why do it early?

At my house we do not decorate our Christmas tree until the evening of Dec. 24, though we are usually forced to purchase it much earlier. The same day we listen to the annual broadcast of the Festival of Lessons and Carols from King's College, Cambridge, before going to Mass at midnight. We put up lights that afternoon and keep them shining in every room — they get marked down to 75 percent off almost immediately — until Candlemas, the ancient feast commemorating the Blessed Virgin's appearance at the temple 40 days after the birth of Our Lord in keeping with the Jewish custom of her day. Christmastide is a season of reckless abandon and childlike joy for us. We re-watch Star Wars and catch all the college bowl games we can. We forget about budgets and drink wine that we can barely afford and heap presents on one another and our friends.


I realize that this does not leave much for people who are not Christians but who like to give one another gifts and wear intentionally ugly woolen garments and visit their grandparents during a select number of weeks each year. I would only observe that kindness is appreciated 365 days a year, that Icelandic sweaters are a great look whenever it is cold, and that Grandma's door is no doubt always open and the cookie jar likely full as long as you give a day's notice.

If you are really invested in the Santa cult, make a proper year-long religion out of it. In the meantime, put away your stupid reindeer and be patient. Christmas is still coming.

Remember, if you play Christmas music early, you are a terrible person
 

wizards8507

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Remember, if you play Christmas music early, you are a terrible person
Depends. There are five sub-categories within what is traditionally considered to be "Christmas Music."

1. Secular winter music - Acceptable whenever the weather starts getting cold. "Frosty the Snowman" is not a Christmas song, it's a seasonal song about children playing in the snow. If it's snowing on December 1, have at thee. See also: Let It Snow and Winter Wonderland.

2. Secular Christmas trash - Never acceptable. Santa Baby, All I Want for Christmas Is You, Last Christmas.

3. Anticipatory Christmas - Lyrics that firmly place you in the spirit of Advent, these songs are forward-looking. Can be secular or religious. See: It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas, I'll Be Home for Christmas, O Come O Come Emmanuel, Ave Maria, Come Thou Long Expected Jesus, It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year.

4. Acceptable secular Christmas - Classics that pay tribute to wholesome values associated with the Christmas season like joy, family, etc. See: White Christmas, The Christmas Song, various Christmas tree songs (Rockin', O, etc.), Holly Jolly Christmas

5. Actual good Christmas songs - Mary's Boy Child, God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, Hark! The Herald Angels Sing, Mary Did You Know, O Holy Night, Silent Night, What Child Is This?, Little Drummer Boy
 

zelezo vlk

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Depends. There are five sub-categories within what is traditionally considered to be "Christmas Music."

1. Secular winter music - Acceptable whenever the weather starts getting cold. "Frosty the Snowman" is not a Christmas song, it's a seasonal song about children playing in the snow. If it's snowing on December 1, have at thee. See also: Let It Snow and Winter Wonderland.

2. Secular Christmas trash - Never acceptable. Santa Baby, All I Want for Christmas Is You, Last Christmas.

3. Anticipatory Christmas - Lyrics that firmly place you in the spirit of Advent, these songs are forward-looking. Can be secular or religious. See: It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas, I'll Be Home for Christmas, O Come O Come Emmanuel, Ave Maria, Come Thou Long Expected Jesus, It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year.

4. Acceptable secular Christmas - Classics that pay tribute to wholesome values associated with the Christmas season like joy, family, etc. See: White Christmas, The Christmas Song, various Christmas tree songs (Rockin', O, etc.), Holly Jolly Christmas

5. Actual good Christmas songs - Mary's Boy Child, God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, Hark! The Herald Angels Sing, Mary Did You Know, O Holy Night, Silent Night, What Child Is This?, Little Drummer Boy

Bruh, did you actually say that "Mary Did You Know" is a good Christmas song?? WHISKEY BACK ME UP HERE
 

wizards8507

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Bruh, did you actually say that "Mary Did You Know" is a good Christmas song?? WHISKEY BACK ME UP HERE
If you're objecting to Mary's deliverance, that line is not heretical as some have alleged. The Immaculate Conception was achieved through Christ's death and resurrection, which transcends time. From Mary's perspective in time and space, the act that would retroactively deliver her was yet to occur.

Pius IX: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Bruh, did you actually say that "Mary Did You Know" is a good Christmas song?? WHISKEY BACK ME UP HERE

Anathema sit!

Mary did you know that your baby boy will one day walk on water?
Mary did you know that your baby boy will save our sons and daughters?
Did you know that your baby boy has come to make you new?
This child that you've delivered, will soon deliver you

Immaculate conception, bruh. Get that Prot nonsense outta here.
 

zelezo vlk

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If you're objecting to Mary's deliverance, that line is not heretical as some have alleged. The Immaculate Conception was achieved through Christ's death and resurrection, which transcends time. From Mary's perspective in time and space, the act that would retroactively deliver her was yet to occur.

Pius IX: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

068-Heretical-Garbage-Stamp-4.jpg


Heresy aside, I don't care for the song's melody.

Unpopular opinion: don't care for Silent Night either.
 

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ae4c3b06e04de74b8bf0c472eaf6d79e0314280b5e7aa22c2486af79f1c4d9b2.jpg


The first two links are the exact same article by the same woman. "Mary Did You Know" was written by Mark Lowry, a Baptist. Baptists deny the Immaculate Conception.

The problem is the phrase "will soon deliver", which implies that Mary was just a normal sinful woman who would be saved by Christ on Calvary like everyone else instead of the kecharitomene who had been prepared specifically to serve as the New Eve, the new Ark of the Convenant, etc.

This is an important theological distinction between Catholics and most of our Protestant countrymen, so I'm not inclined to undermine my efforts to properly catechize my kids by letting it play in the background of my home 24/7 for two straight months.
 

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I'm not inclined to undermine my efforts to properly catechize my kids by letting it play in the background of my home 24/7 for two straight months.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">And now the Christians on my Facebook calling me a devil worshiper because my kids went trick or treating. This is why people laugh at us.</p>— Matt Walsh (@MattWalshBlog) <a href="https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/793255529011376128?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 1, 2016</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">And now the Christians on my Facebook calling me a devil worshiper because my kids went trick or treating. This is why people laugh at us.</p>— Matt Walsh (@MattWalshBlog) <a href="https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/793255529011376128?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 1, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

If you don't celebrate Hallowe'en, John Calvin wins. Mocking the powers of darkness by dressing your children up as ghouls and demons is awesome. Where many of us fall short is over the following two days: properly celebrating All Saints' Day and All Souls' Day. I'll be taking my kids to the cemetery where my paternal grandparents are buried tomorrow to obtain plenary indulgences for our deceased loved ones. It's a great opportunity to explain the Church Militant v. Penitent v. Triumphant.
 

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Depends. There are five sub-categories within what is traditionally considered to be "Christmas Music."

1. Secular winter music - Acceptable whenever the weather starts getting cold. "Frosty the Snowman" is not a Christmas song, it's a seasonal song about children playing in the snow. If it's snowing on December 1, have at thee. See also: Let It Snow and Winter Wonderland.

2. Secular Christmas trash - Never acceptable. Santa Baby, All I Want for Christmas Is You, Last Christmas.

3. Anticipatory Christmas - Lyrics that firmly place you in the spirit of Advent, these songs are forward-looking. Can be secular or religious. See: It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas, I'll Be Home for Christmas, O Come O Come Emmanuel, Ave Maria, Come Thou Long Expected Jesus, It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year.

4. Acceptable secular Christmas - Classics that pay tribute to wholesome values associated with the Christmas season like joy, family, etc. See: White Christmas, The Christmas Song, various Christmas tree songs (Rockin', O, etc.), Holly Jolly Christmas

5. Actual good Christmas songs - Mary's Boy Child, God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, Hark! The Herald Angels Sing, Mary Did You Know, O Holy Night, Silent Night, What Child Is This?, Little Drummer Boy

All this bickering about Mary Did You Know, and not even one mention of Wiz bringing up a Wham! song?!
 
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That was like the most reasonable response ever to gun tragedy. Seems like its word for word from everyone but Gun rights advocates.

Maybe its time to have that discussion, both morally and constitutionally.
 
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