Theology

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Cackalacky

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I agree that greater men and women than myself have pondered these issues and even as OMM wrote, when inspecting the concept of the Creator and the Creation, explanations are difficult and will be met with limitless opinions. I am no less than much worse off on certain topics and wield a poor ability to issue what opinions I do have into words.

As far as my own POV, I have no intent to offend anyone however I will state this:

In the end, it comes down to what you choose to believe because no one can prove God exists or does not exist. or even that morals are derived from this entity that may or may not exist. Claiming a first mover even is equally as meaningless as saying you dont know and may not ever know. Choosing to throw a lot in on the side of something with out evidence is Pascal's wager. Claiming, that "well better men than me claim this..." is no less an appeal to authority than claiming what the Pope or an Iman or Bhudda said is truth which is up for interpretation accepting that at a minimum a First Mover is responsible.

I cannot in good conscience follow a train of thought like this ultimately ending up with something I must cast my stones in to be "safe" or to be meaningful. If that makes me meaningless and without value then so be it. My only goal is to be the best human I can be while I enjoy this short time of consciousness and self awareness.

I will not be posting on this topic again. I like all of you far too much.
 

Irishman77

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Rather than rant away about how I could never understand someone deny their is a God and He is our creator I will just post this video and hope it helps one or so skeptics.

Evolution Vs. God
 
B

Buster Bluth

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1. When I say disciples, I'm not speaking in the common form of the 12 who were followers of Christ. Disciples are those originally around Christ and those who chose to follow the teachings from Christ's disciples. If I were speaking about the original 12, I'd reference them as apostles. So yes, in fact, we do have extant writings from many of the earliest disciples of Christ.

If you'll notice, I didn't mention the apostles in my post. Simply, "them."

We do not have many writings from the "earliest disciples of Christ." Jesus was a Jew talking about Judiam to other Jews, specifically to the poorest Jews who spoke Aramaic. The Gospels are written in Greek, anonymously. Paul, as mentioned in this thread, never met Jesus.

2. I'm not smart enough to cover all topics on why Ehrman is wrong in a forum post. If you do enough googling, I'm sure you'll find plenty of good defenses of how his arguments are refuted.

That's fine, and I will do that research for my own knowledge I promise you that. But...and I won't call this a "debate" because I think it's much more friendly than that, but when one fella makes a statement (me paraphrasing Ehrman, Aslan, et al.) and the other fella says "if you do enough googling..." ...well I'm just not exactly blown away haha

4. I think you understand that when you call someone's views nonsense, then say it's best to not continue the discussion, it isn't exactly ending on good terms.

I only say that because, in my opinion, I believe I understand your position thoroughly and am denying it fully. I don't mean to insult.

5. I'll do a little digging and post replies from Ehrman's best critics but in regards to only one gospel clearly discussing Christ's Godhood, it wouldn't have any more effect on me than you telling me the trinity is never explicitly expressed in the Bible. The Church's early fathers have mulled over these issues and gone to great lengths to have a cohesive argument against modern self-falation. Res ipsa loquitur

One man's "Church's early fathers have mulled over these issues and gone to great lengths to have a cohesive argument against modern self-falation" is another man's "that religion grew and changed over time and has had a 2,000-year head start on excuses for the reasons for that." The "fathers" of every religion on the planet have a perfectly logical explanation for everything in their religion too.

I see the claim for cohesion, but I'm sitting here reading a claim that no two early bible manuscripts are the same; that among the ~5,000 manuscripts there are ~100,000 differences. That doesn't say much for cohesion.

7. Who and what do you need to see that? I know it's easy when people grow up believing one thing, and then have their "awakening" upon hearing counter arguments and switch sides with firm allegiance to their new found faith, in this discussion, the faith in nothing. Ex nihilo nihil fit.

I quite simply believe there must be a primal mover. I've heard some scientists posit that this pre-requisite isn't needed but it's speaking beyond one's scope. Everything, everything, everything in this world has a cause and effect since the Big Bang (or before? Perhaps the Bigger Bang that led to all the tiny Big Bangs in each universes of our posited multi-verse). So what science allows us to do is conceptualize the forces around us in a framework that allows us to move things to our desires.

It simply can not devise a framework for which to explain how something comes from nothing. This is a simplified argument but I believe it gets at the root of the discussion. I was a biochemistry major in college, I appreciate science. I appreciate evolution and physics and kinetics and entropy and everything else we are able to do (for good) with what science has provided but it doesn't speak to an ultimate beginning.

Why are we much smarter than we evolutionarily need to be? We are logarithmic scales higher in intellect than we need to be to still hold dominion over this planet. I haven't ever sought out research papers that attempt to explain the sizable gap so perhaps science has put something forth on this but I rarely here anyone question it.

Those are disjointed thoughts from today.

Listen I'm all about the that sorta thing. I think science should be one of religion's best friends, not an enemy. Science is something that makes me think there could be a god. History and logic on the other hand show me that while there may be a god, none of the ones currently on the menu are correct.
 
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Grahambo

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Listen I'm all about the that sorta thing. I think science should be one of religion's best friends, not an enemy. Science is thing that makes me think there could be a god. History and logic on the other hand show me that while there may be a god, none of the ones currently on the menu are correct.


I've always believed science and religion are meant to be together, like best friends. Lol

I believe. I have faith. I trust in Him. People like to ask why? They want evidence, proof. Like the court system, proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Sure, I get it. Just not my cup of tea. I'm just a man. I'm not capable of understanding His reasoning. It's too much for humans to grasp. I watch people everyday and they can hardly grasp the simplest of concepts so to expect them to understand God and His plan is just too much.

So, I'm asked to trust. I'm asked to have faith. I'm asked to love. And I do, to the best of my ability. I fall short often but Jesus sacrificed himself so that I may join the VIP section in the sky. Lol.

K.I.S.S - Keep it simple, stupid. :) I believe people have an unhealthy desire to need to know.

I've believed the Bible to be part history and part roadmap to Heaven.

Just some of my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Nobody is wrong in their opinion. Ultimately, you gotta do what you gotta do. There may or may not be consequences when the time comes; only one way to find out. :)

I'm not here to get into some debate either. I love everyone the same.



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Whiskeyjack

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Msgr. Carlo Maria Polvani just published an article in L'Osservatore Romano titled "Why Are There No Penguins at the North Pole?"

Despite the more than 150 years that have passed since the publication of Charles Robert Darwin’s (1809-1882) On the Origin of Species (1859), the debate on the theory of evolution is far from over. To better understand several scientific aspects of the ongoing discussion, it may be helpful to describe the general elements of the theory that are shared by the majority of the scientific community, distinguishing them from the specific positions held by the staunchest Darwinians.



The genetic makeup of every living being, namely the deoxyribonucleic acid (dna) composing the genotype, is constantly subjected to mutation. In general, these changes do not result in advantages or disadvantages in that the majority of dna mutations do not translate into changes in external characteristics, i.e., in phenotype. When, however, mutations cause more competitive characteristics to emerge, they tend to express themselves in subsequent generations by disruptive selection (one phenotype eliminates another), stabilizing selection (a phenotype is established in a population), or directional selection (the particular characteristic of a phenotype is strengthened). The succession of mutations which strengthen traits that are useful for survival induces the gradual divergence of a group which may possibly become the progenitor of a new species. This is illustrated by the following example.

Millions of years ago, perhaps driven by the search for food or to escape from predators, a species of bird settled permanently in the Antarctic. Over time, genotypic mutations took place in these birds. Most of these mutations remained dormant, but then came one which initiated the transformation of their wings into scaly fins. Subsequent mutations reinforced this phenotypic transformation. Little by little, the new birds, having lost the ability to fly, managed to survive in the harsh southern regions by becoming expert underwater divers, thanks to their new fins and an abundance of fish. The species which migrated to the South Pole millions of years ago is no longer seen there today. Instead, there is a new one: the penguin.

On the basis of fossil finds, great naturalists like Jean-Baptiste de Lamarck (1744-1829) — who had formulated a thesis on evolution a century before Darwin — had already defended general evolutionary theories. The theory introduced by Darwin, the biologist from Shrewsbury, postulated — as Jacques Monod explained in Le hasard et la necessité (1970), reinterpreting the line by Democritus: “Everything existing in the universe is the fruit of chance and necessity” — that there were two, and only two, forces to explain the phenomenon of evolution: that of chance, which creates diversity at the genotypic level, and that of selection, which supports the emergence of the phenotypes most likely to guarantee survival.

At the start of the 21st century, in spite of considerable internal disputes in the Darwinist camp on the subject of natural selection — the gene, according to Clinton Richard Dawkins; species, according to Stephen Jay Gould (1941-2002); and social behaviour, according to Edward Osborne Wilson — Darwinism’s line of demarcation actually rested on the refusal to concede any exception to the principle supporting the exclusive binomial of chance and necessity.

In The Blind Watchmaker (1986), Dawkins — while warning that necessity is a deterministic rule, which could be measured were it possible to identify the factors, whereas chance is a completely unpredictable force, therefore totally unforeseeable — identifies, in the interaction between these two absolutely autonomous forces, — the unique, necessary and convincing explanation of the phenomenon of life on earth. He demonstrates the merits attributed by modern Darwinism to this line of demarcation which, as Monod wrote, must be accepted in its rough dramatic nature, despite “the unwearying, heroic effort of mankind desperately denying its own contingency”.

In universities throughout the world, observations are being analyzed which could indirectly invalidate or confirm Darwinian positions. Could self-replicating chemical molecules, perhaps, be at the origin of life? Why is there a universal genetic code? Is the statistical incidence of chance mutations of a genotype likely to produce adequate phenotype diversity? How can one explain the Cambrian explosion, the event which, 530 million years ago, saw a temporary increase — by an order of magnitude — in the appearance of animal species? But any calling into question of the chance-necessity axiom is unpopular, to the point of being quickly labelled as crypto-creationism of a religious fundamentalist stamp, as happened when the founders of Intelligent Design introduced the concepts of irreducible complexity, defended by biochemist Michael Behe in Darwin’s Black Box (1996), and those of specific complexity advocated by mathematician William Albert Dembski in The Design Inference (1998).

This is not the place to debate the validity of their propositions, but it is impossible not to note that there exists in the academic world a certain reluctance to subject Darwin’s theory to the “logic of falsification” introduced by Karl Popper (1902-1994). This Austrian-British philosopher, inspired by the work of mathematician Alfred Tarski (1901-1983), had noted as early as the 1930s the fundamental asymmetry between the verifiability and falsifiability of scientific theories: no matter how consistently experimental observations may support a hypothesis, actually, one single unfavourable piece of evidence is sufficient to refute it.

Thus, according to Popper, what allows a theory to bear the title ‘scientific’ depends on an experiment capable of producing evidence that might refute it. Popper himself examined the scientific nature of evolutionary theory in light of his own criteria and, still today, it is debatable as to whether he had expressed his definitive opinion. Therefore, it is still fair to ask whether there exists an experiment capable of contesting the postulate that chance and necessity are the only forces at play in the origin and selection of species. In answer to this query, Dawkins replied that the simple observation of any animal is enough, such as the hippo for instance. But the specific example of the penguin shows that this position does not seem tenable.

The Darwinist position implies that statistically, the genotypic mutation of wings into fins would have also occurred in birds living in other areas on the planet, such as, for example, the rainforests of Sumatra, but since in that environment the phenotypic features offered no competitive advantages, the penguin did not establish itself there. The same Darwinist position, however, implies that in the Arctic zones, similar in many ways to those of the Antarctic, species similar to the penguin might have been expected. Instead, there are none. To explain this absence, many Darwinists frequently use a deductive or ‘top-down’ approach, pleading the existence of causes not yet explained experimentally in order to justify an unforeseen observation.

There would be no lack of Darwinists prepared to support the idea that the presence of predators like polar bears, who live exclusively at the North Pole, could possibly be the reason for the absence of penguins in the boreal zones. Although, this line of argument might even prove valid could such an experiment take place, it is nevertheless tainted by a tautological logic: in fact, one cannot base a theory on an observation and then, when such a process results in an unsatisfactory conclusion, invoke the theory to justify the observation. This limitation is reinforced by the fact that, as things stand now, the Darwinist position, contrary to other scientific theories, has nothing to brag about with regard to predictability, that is, the capacity to correctly predict future observations on the basis of theoretical postulates. Indeed, there is not a single biologist who can forecast if and when penguins might appear at the North Pole, not even assuming the hypothetical extinction of polar bears due to global warming.

A reading of John Paul II’s 1996 Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences is enough to realize that few today doubt the evolution of life on Earth. This, however, does not alter the fact that the onus probandi (burden of proving) the precise scientific merit of the specifics of the Darwinist formulation of that theory still rests on the shoulders of its defenders.

In this context, it is rather paradoxical that proponents of scientific independence from the interference of religion — atheistic vehemence is manifest in Dawkins’ pamphlet The God Delusion (2006) — refuse to submit their thesis to a strictly scientific examination. Hence, merit goes to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences for having rigorously investigated, in 2008, the scientific basis of the evolution of life. The main threat to the scientific integrity of the theory of evolution, in fact, does not come from an alleged invasion of the field by theology, but rather from the incapacity of a certain self-referential science to recognize when it is time for a paradigmatic change, as philosopher Thomas Samuel Kuhn (1922-1996) indicated in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1966), noting ironically that “only when they must choose between competing theories do scientists behave like philosophers”.
 

Old Man Mike

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Unless Polvani is promulgating this just as an antidote to Dawkinsian NON-scientific assertions claiming [embarrassingly erroneously] to use science to negate God, this entire penguin business is destined for failure.

Firstly, NO one other than extremist large-domed/small minded idiots like Dawkins or Gould believe that The Theory of Natural Selection predicts much of anything on the macro-species level. By definition, as it is FOUNDED on CHANCE mutations, it CANNOT predict such things. Any biologist [or any other intelligent human being], who actually still has a non-closed mind, realizes that Natural Selection [though a rather "neat" brainstorm] is not a fully-scientific theory as philosophers would define that term. Again, by definition, the macro-species aspects of Natural Selection are based on data of "past things". One finds time-travel difficult, and so no "proof" of such assertions can ever be coming. For microbiology --- hard going but a bit of prediction can be made from experiments with microorganisms, and some reasonable deductions can be made using some insects.

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with scientists trying to use a proposed theory to explain enigmas like "no penguins at the North Pole". Trying to enlist other philosophical mental rules [and this one enlisted here is in no way a universal self-evident "truth"], in a real world attempt to learn things [i.e. using a scolding about "forbidden mind behavior" of tautological thinking to try to forbid a route to research progress] is, frankly, anti-truth-seeking. If one claims that someone is in error because they are trying to use this wrong-headed gimmick to "prove" something, well, NO ONE'S PROVING ANYTHING here. "Proof" is a concept, which when analyzed deeper than street-corner b.s.ing, is either meaningless argument noise-making, or is nearly unattainable by any scientific method. Persons actually UNDERSTANDING the Scientific Method know this. Dawkins, and maybe even Polvani, do not seem to.

Thirdly, as to penguins: Penguins didn't crawl up on the ice at the South Pole. Something else did. And we have NO idea what genetic mutation they may have had to allow them to awkwardly fill this unfilled ecological niche. Unless we knew both that and the potential niche rivals that they had, no arguments about whether there was any odd mystery in that can be made. This sort of "argument" can be made for any region of the planet. All sorts of water-close-by environments exist. Very few have penguins --- why not? God only likes penguins in certain places? Why marsupials in Australia? God only wants them [other than opossums] there? Hippos on the Nile but not on the Amazon? No elephants in the Americas --- wait!! There were Mastodons till recent times. Why'd they all die here but not in Africa or India? God wanted it that way?

This line of reasoning, as some "telling" piece of philosophy, is a red herring so easily seen through that it might do more harm than good. Fortunately no well-educated scientists who understand the nature of science will pay any attention to it --- just as no well-educated scientist who understands the nature of science pays attention to Dawkins. Don't be fooled: the cadre of loud "scientists" hurrahing the atheists like Dawkins and Gould do NOT understand the nature os science, and if they ever did, have allowed something else in their emotional side to block that understanding from their minds.

All these things are NOT about "Science", but about fear and/or hatred. It is an embarrassment for the whole human species --- the physical vessel of which DID evolve almost certainly [in my science-data-based opinion], and evolved due to "laws of nature" instilled into the original creation event by the Creator [in my non-scientific spirit-mysticism-based opinion]. That Creator awaited the development of a fine physical vessel and then melded a spiritual element into it which allowed a type of full-consciousness capable of assessing "right decisions vs wrong ones" and through free will consciously choosing between them --- also in my spirituality-based opinion. This latter is the position currently of most Catholic scientist-theologians, not "intelligent design" as strictly defined. And it is the one which SHOULD be the Catholic position, as it best incorporates both the knowledges of revelation/mysticism/prayer and physical science.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Unless Polvani is promulgating this just as an antidote to Dawkinsian NON-scientific assertions claiming [embarrassingly erroneously] to use science to negate God, this entire penguin business is destined for failure.

I read Polvani's argument not as an indictment of science, but of scientism, which, in asserting empiricism as the only valid method of human learning, forecloses many productive avenues of inquiry.

And scientism seems to be pretty prevalent in the modern academe, though I'll defer to your experience on that subject OMM.
 

Old Man Mike

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You are correct that the problem is "scientism." This aberration of the activity known as "investigating things scientifically" is widespread in academe, but not quite as much as the "outside" public is led to believe. The disconnect between what one hears and what many academics actually believe comes from the "social pressure environments" associated with "being a publishing academic".

Somehow, and maybe it was inevitable, speaking of one's deep SPIRITUAL beliefs became a negative behavior, unless one might be at a religion-based institution or in rare academic departments --- example: being in a Religion Department and admitting that one is a Buddhist --- showing how far the anti-Christian prejudice has gone, it is MUCH less acceptable to talk about one's Christianity.

Being at all overt about one's Christianity has the potential to cast one's academic work into controversy --- "has an 'irrational' element crept into this guy's basic assumptions as to what his deductions or even his beginning assumptions [read: "prejudices"] are?" There is NO academic reward and there is significant academic risk in being overt about being a religious person. So profs rarely say anything about it.

Concurrently, the field is very non-level. IF an academic wants to spew out prejudicial crap AGAINST religious beliefs, that guy might get away with it relatively unscathed. This is because his bullshit is not necessarily regarded as the TYPE of prejudice which could interfere with his "scientific" work --- his actual physical/biological research, NOT his "cosmic deductions". One thinks: well, I can buy into the actual work without believing his beyond-the-data speculative comments. --- This unevenness makes no scholarly or analytical sense in the end, but it is the state of affairs caused by past religions' anti-science bias... sort of "justice for the Sins of the Fathers".

The social results of this are two:

1). the wide-mouthed scientistic atheists get away with their anti-truth-seeker views more easily because other persons of the same ilk feel freer to quickly chime in to back them up. Academics of the opposite "spiritual" opinions do not.

2). naive young academics get programmed into thinking that the extremist untruths being promulgated by their "heroes" actually make sense, and are somehow part of their discipline. --- remember that although all science researchers have a certain form of intelligence at a good-to-high level, very few are actually "Intelligent" at a general level --- most often lacking in the social intelligences, but also in the intuitive and "synthetic" intelligence that is critical for both theory formation and testing and evaluation. I have met many fellow profs who were flat mediocre minds in my estimation. They could only really "think" in limited ways.

As time has proceeded in the 20th century, some of these scientistic [or call it as it is: bullshit] element-claims have become published in textbooks without proper critique [as proper critiques would involve weighing the [equally faith-based] feared "spiritual" alternatives], and these claims are inserted overtly or subconsciously into "tribal" PhD training in the separate academic "cults" which we call politely "the disciplines". All the disciplines have these prejudices ingrown. Ex: "The Cosmos is all that there is, and all that there ever will be." {Carl Sagan}. Ex. "The Native American civilizations owe nothing to visitations/trade/exploration from outside cultures." {fundamental tenet of American anthropology/archaeology}. Ex. " Randomness is the dominant feature of biological evolution." {Stephen Gould et al --- conveniently ignoring the powerful evidence that restrictive forces in the environments are at least as important, which is the overwhelming finding of convergent evolution observation and analyses --- by the way, the Gouldian position survives not because it is correct, but because it heads off the religious view of a God-Planned-Design in any simply-stated form --- i.e. if all is random, you can't say it's designed.}

All academic tribes are infected with these unhelpful prejudices and they are almost entirely opaque [as being prejudices] to the "believers" who are members of those cults. Sometimes fields are split between different warring cults [psychology is "great" for seeing this] but whatever cult one belongs to, one is still in a cult. To speak against the cult is professional suicide. To speak out against perceived cult leaders [ex. Dawkins, Gould, Hawking, Sagan] is "irrational heresy" and fraught with the various forms of damnation in terms of publications, position, grants that angry-gods can wreak upon mortals.
 

Domina Nostra

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You are correct that the problem is "scientism." This aberration of the activity known as "investigating things scientifically" is widespread in academe, but not quite as much as the "outside" public is led to believe. The disconnect between what one hears and what many academics actually believe comes from the "social pressure environments" associated with "being a publishing academic".

Somehow, and maybe it was inevitable, speaking of one's deep SPIRITUAL beliefs became a negative behavior, unless one might be at a religion-based institution or in rare academic departments --- example: being in a Religion Department and admitting that one is a Buddhist --- showing how far the anti-Christian prejudice has gone, it is MUCH less acceptable to talk about one's Christianity.

Being at all overt about one's Christianity has the potential to cast one's academic work into controversy --- "has an 'irrational' element crept into this guy's basic assumptions as to what his deductions or even his beginning assumptions [read: "prejudices"] are?" There is NO academic reward and there is significant academic risk in being overt about being a religious person. So profs rarely say anything about it.

Concurrently, the field is very non-level. IF an academic wants to spew out prejudicial crap AGAINST religious beliefs, that guy might get away with it relatively unscathed. This is because his bullshit is not necessarily regarded as the TYPE of prejudice which could interfere with his "scientific" work --- his actual physical/biological research, NOT his "cosmic deductions". One thinks: well, I can buy into the actual work without believing his beyond-the-data speculative comments. --- This unevenness makes no scholarly or analytical sense in the end, but it is the state of affairs caused by past religions' anti-science bias... sort of "justice for the Sins of the Fathers".

The social results of this are two:

1). the wide-mouthed scientistic atheists get away with their anti-truth-seeker views more easily because other persons of the same ilk feel freer to quickly chime in to back them up. Academics of the opposite "spiritual" opinions do not.

2). naive young academics get programmed into thinking that the extremist untruths being promulgated by their "heroes" actually make sense, and are somehow part of their discipline. --- remember that although all science researchers have a certain form of intelligence at a good-to-high level, very few are actually "Intelligent" at a general level --- most often lacking in the social intelligences, but also in the intuitive and "synthetic" intelligence that is critical for both theory formation and testing and evaluation. I have met many fellow profs who were flat mediocre minds in my estimation. They could only really "think" in limited ways.

As time has proceeded in the 20th century, some of these scientistic [or call it as it is: bullshit] element-claims have become published in textbooks without proper critique [as proper critiques would involve weighing the [equally faith-based] feared "spiritual" alternatives], and these claims are inserted overtly or subconsciously into "tribal" PhD training in the separate academic "cults" which we call politely "the disciplines". All the disciplines have these prejudices ingrown. Ex: "The Cosmos is all that there is, and all that there ever will be." {Carl Sagan}. Ex. "The Native American civilizations owe nothing to visitations/trade/exploration from outside cultures." {fundamental tenet of American anthropology/archaeology}. Ex. " Randomness is the dominant feature of biological evolution." {Stephen Gould et al --- conveniently ignoring the powerful evidence that restrictive forces in the environments are at least as important, which is the overwhelming finding of convergent evolution observation and analyses --- by the way, the Gouldian position survives not because it is correct, but because it heads off the religious view of a God-Planned-Design in any simply-stated form --- i.e. if all is random, you can't say it's designed.}

All academic tribes are infected with these unhelpful prejudices and they are almost entirely opaque [as being prejudices] to the "believers" who are members of those cults. Sometimes fields are split between different warring cults [psychology is "great" for seeing this] but whatever cult one belongs to, one is still in a cult. To speak against the cult is professional suicide. To speak out against perceived cult leaders [ex. Dawkins, Gould, Hawking, Sagan] is "irrational heresy" and fraught with the various forms of damnation in terms of publications, position, grants that angry-gods can wreak upon mortals.

Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write that out.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Somehow, and maybe it was inevitable, speaking of one's deep SPIRITUAL beliefs became a negative behavior, unless one might be at a religion-based institution or in rare academic departments --- example: being in a Religion Department and admitting that one is a Buddhist --- showing how far the anti-Christian prejudice has gone, it is MUCH less acceptable to talk about one's Christianity.

The irony is that this instinct--skepticism of the establishment and sympathy for the downtrodden--is itself an artifact of Christianity. You won't find it in virtually any other religious tradition. So it's sadly ironic that secular progressives, as modern inheritors of the Reformation, now turn that skepticism on the Christian moral framework that allowed them to climb to such airy heights.

I just ordered "An Anxious Age" by Jody Bottum, which explores this issue in depth. Here's an article summarizing his thesis called "The Spiritual Shape of Politics":

Early in the twentieth century, however, the main denominations of liberal American Protestantism gradually came to a new view of sin, understanding our innate failings as fundamentally social rather than personal. Crystallized by Walter Rauschenbusch’s influential Christianity and the Social Crisis (1907), the Social Gospel movement saw such sins as militarism and bigotry as the forces that Christ revealed in his preaching—the social forces that crucified him and the social forces against which he was resurrected. Not that Christ mattered all that much in the Social Gospel’s construal. Theological critics from John Gresham Machen in the 1920s to Reinhold Niebuhr in the 1950s pointed out that
the Social Gospel left little for the Redeemer to do: Living after his revelation, what further use do have we of him? Jesus may be the ladder by which we climbed to a higher ledge of morality, but once there, we no longer need the ladder.

Millions of believing Christians still populate the United States, of course: evangelicals and Catholics and the remaining members of the mainline churches. Demographically, America is still an overwhelmingly Christian country. But the Social Gospel’s loss of a strong sense of Christ facilitated the drift of congregants—particularly the elite and college-educated classes—out of the mainline that had once defined the country. Out of the churches and into a generally secularized milieu.

They did not leave empty-handed. Born in the Christian churches, the civil rights movement had focused on bigotry as the most pressing of social sins in the 1950s and 1960s, and when the mainline Protestants began to leave their denominations, they carried with them the Christian shape of social and moral ideas, however much they imagined they had rejected Christian content. How else can we understand the religious fervor with which white privilege is preached these days—the spiritual urgency with which its proponents describe a universal inherited guilt they must seek out behind even its cleverest masks? Their very sense of themselves as good people, their confidence in their salvation from the original sin of American culture, requires all this.
 
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Circa

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I started reading this thread and at about 3 pages in my shoulders felt heavy, my heart felt hard, and my eyes were opened a few times. I have always questioned this long talked about fact of life.

As a grade schooler I was in Catholic school. I had a teacher Sister Mary Rose in the second grade whom would lose her keys every now and again. The class would all participate in a prayer to Saint Christopher. Low and behold she would find these keys and we would all be happy for it.

Religion in my opinion has always been a form of thought in order to carry the load. Without something greater than Us, what is there? What do we yearn for and how can we overcome the many obstacles.

Could It be, that we aren't all that much different than each other. There was a time and It still runs around some avenues that we are all different and unique. What If we weren't that much different and we all were guided by the same source? Names of certain entities are cumbersome and easily identifiable but do they make the source different? Every war that has ever been fought has had some form of religion conflict within it. One mind isn't too many minds.
 

Old Man Mike

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Something that I believe:

1). The only thing that can give life any purpose is if we are free to choose one action or another;
2). That choice is trivial unless it has at its core Love --- will I choose the Love-oriented action or the selfish one?;
3). The Creator of all this made it that way --- we are all continually on the razor edge of choosing Love or not-Love;
4). Love must be awfully important to the Creator to have made a whole universe of free-choosing persons in this way;
5). Love isn't scientific, it is felt in the soul, it is spiritual. We will never feel it until we get quiet and reach out to it;
6). Those who choose not to believe in anything beyond the reductionism of science, choose to live without purpose, and, in the bottom analysis, in an existence where "Love" is an illusion, and all aspects of their life are merely chemistry.

That is the choice of hypothetical worlds we have to pick from. Neither is "scientific". Both are matters of faith. I choose purpose and the opportunity to love God.
 

Old Man Mike

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Heresy 101

Two things first: a]. this will not be about the core of Deneen's comments, but he did mention the following as a critical part of one guy's take on "modern liberalism." b]. my views are judge-able as heresy, but I remain staunchly Catholic. This is because I view The Church as the Community of people at its roots, not the "highly" placed authoritarians in its august offices. The heresy that I insist upon is the radical revision of "original sin", a concept not described by Jesus in the Gospels, but rather insisted upon in a colossal error by Augustine.

The habituated concept of original sin infesting Church Doctrines owes its "mature" description to Augustine, as everyone knows. Any thinking individual should have at least taken pause at Augustine's formulation upon reading that he was subsequently forced by logic to follow his erroneous premises to conclude that unbaptized babies would of necessity burn in hell for eternity. It certainly got my attention, being as contrary a concept to the behavior of God in my Faith as anything I might imagine. Augustine is just wrong.

What if anything does "original sin" mean? Once again, in my opinion, science has helped. Once you sweep away Bishop Ussher's Creation-starting point of 4004BC, and take in what really happened, the Catholic mind should immediately see that there was a period before which there was no true human, and a period afterwards where there were plenty of us. The pre-humans were in the animal state: no full consciousness of individual place in time, limited understanding of cause-and-effect causality, and therefore no concept of responsibility and consequence. As with all the animals, pre-homonids lived in the "state-of-nature" which [just like our beloved dogs] is morality or "sin" free. {Your dog might piss on your leg or eat your supper, but it does not "sin" while doing so}. The CAPABILITY of "sinning" only arrives with the advent of true human consciousness/awareness of our situations in space and time and the ability to judge consequences. There must be a difference of choices available involving "better" or "worse" moral/love outcomes before there can be any meaningful personal actions based upon free will.

In this vision [which to me approximates reality], the pre-true-human "state-of-nature" is the only legitimate moral-less "paradise" that "we" have lived in. What threw us out of that [somewhat mindless] "Eden" was --- wait for it --- "The Knowledge of Good and Evil", that is the ability to understand possible consequences. It is the ACHIEVING of the Knowledge of Good vs. Evil that allows us to become human and purposeful. Thank God that "Eve" ate that "Apple".

The extremely old allegory of the Garden is astoundingly prescient in putting forward these profundities in ancient poetic ways so near to what actually happened in geological times. It was God giving us the "temptation" to achieve Knowledge of Good and Evil which allowed us to become truly evolved free will choosers of Love, and thereby a meaningful element in the Universe. If the Devil had anything to do with the decision, then he really blew it. There was NO LOVE before the "fall" [what a ridiculous way of labeling it; let's call it our ascension] and plenty of Love afterwards. The Devil had NO work before in a Universe composed of fancy moral-less biomachines, now he had his hands full trying to stamp out love everywhere.

But if one accepts an actual workable [and not embarrassing] concept of Original Sin [now defined as a change-of-nature allowing the POSSIBILITY of sinning, not actual sin], whole monstrous segments of Augustine-inspired mind-crap have to go. The first is that babies are loaded with sin [Lord help us] and require infant baptism --- if the Church wants to baptize babies fine. Just do it as a nice conveyance of welcoming grace, not as a soul-blacked need.

The second thing that must go is the Immaculate Conception. It frankly stuns me that Marianists don't see that this LOWERS the accomplishment of Mary, not heightens it. "My" Mary came into the world sinless JUST LIKE ALL THE REST OF US, but unlike us SHE managed to continually make the correct choices despite NOT being "special". That's a lot more heroic to me, and Praise be to you, Notre Dame. This little doctrinal stupidity by the Church should cast another goofiness into perspective: the "infallibility" of the Pope was engineered by a 19th century megalomaniac against LARGE amounts of opposition even amongst the guys with the red hats, and then he used the alleged new power to declare the Immaculate Conception as fact.

The toppling of this tower of errors built by unwise fools [motivated by God only knows what] has many other reverberations. The idea as worried over by Rorty is just another one. What one might legitimately say is: the human species is NOT "born evil". But on the other hand, there is no good evidence nor theology that we are born good. The morally accurate position seems to be that we are born with the capacity for both good and evil, because we "have the ability to assess knowledge of good and evil", gained through our true human consciousness. How we act on that knowledge is at least partly the state's concern, and depending on which brand of liberal/conservative one has decided to be, may empower state thinking to try to influence or curb that. Humans are not a "blank tablet" either. We have the deep animality always rumbling within us, and we PROBABLY have some countering amount of what we poetically call "conscience" to balance that animality off, making life a fair choice.

Feel free to contact Francis about my excommunication. I'm a LOT more sanguine about you contacting him than I would have been about Benedict --- the difference between a disciple of Jesus and a disciple of Augustine.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Compelling stuff, Mike. I moved it here so you could expound on your thoughts about Original Sin. I've long intuited something similar, to which my earlier posts in this thread attest-- that "The Fall" was simply humanity's achievement of consciousness, which thereafter allowed us to independently choose God or sin, community or self, virtue or vice, etc. In other words, Man's "fallen" nature is an inevitable consequence of free will.

But isn't this basically Pelagianism? I agree that Augustine's concept of Original Sin leads one to inevitably conclude that unbaptized babies go to Hell, which would be an absurdly unjust outcome. But conversely, doing away with Original Sin seems to reduce the significance of Christ's redemption to mainly instruction and example, which also seems profoundly wrong.

Looks like I need to do some further reading on this.
 

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Firstly, never let a label stop you from meditation and exploration. Crediting labels is the mental behavior of a lazy mind [I know that YOU are not this way, but throwing out "Pelagianism" as any sort of non-thought-through reason to discredit or distrust a concept or train of thought is a flag/warning signal. ... same thing, by the way with cloaking individuals with "liberal", "conservative", "progressive", "libertarian", "communist", "socialist", ... etc .... as a lazy way to demonize or sanctify anyone --- VERY unproductive mental behavior.]

Secondly, "reducing the significance" of Christ's redemptive acts: yes. Since labeling Christ's life as "redemptive" means that there was something fundamentally in need to redemption/expunging/ removing in the Creation that was preventing --- fundamentally --- human individuals from living lives of free choice and potentially good loving choices [and thereby being seen by the Creator as "doing Good and Loving acts"]. BUT THERE WAS NO SUCH THING. Philosophically { moral theologically } pre-Christ humans MUST have had the ability to make good and loving choices and in some sense therefore live lives pleasing to The Lord. If not, none were pleasing to the Lord, and the whole pre-Christ era was a ridiculous [at best] or horrible sham of predestined moral failure and damnation.

THAT just cannot be true for MY God. God gave us all a chance --- a REAL "just" chance at living a proper moral life. Every human has always had that, and God would judge all in accordance with the circumstances that they faced in their decisions.

What then did Christ do? Christ doesn't say that he's come to Redeem; he says that he's come to complete the old laws, and bring us something that will allow us to have life and have it more abundantly. He's come to bring the "positive" {LOVE} statement of the commandments as a universal message of spirituality. It's the Universality of Christ's message which had to be brought at that time.

Why? Pre-Christ era humans for the most part "had their chances" for spiritual revelations/ truths/inspirations by interacting with the Creation. They constructed cultures and religions based upon what they saw in Nature [call it Truth from God-the-Father if it makes you nervous about the label "paganism"], and, like all religions got some of it right and some of it wrong. What they got right, things like the sacred nature of Life, the mystic communion with something bigger than oneself, the need to care about things and one another, allowed faith in things which buttressed choices for right living. In these revelations/intuitions from God the Father [called by whatever names and dimly perceived as Nature gods] pre-Christian human's spiritual faith survived.

Christ's coming did, [this is my unprovable "wild speculation",] something VITALLY necessary at the time that God chose. With the rampaging expansion of the superpower Rome, local cultures were dying rapidly. Being squashed by a superpower makes it tough to believe in one's own "gods". Local deities were being trashed by the roadside, difficult to credit with anything. AND, Rome was replacing these sources of spirituality with ... nothing. The Roman Pantheon was an anachronistic joke, nodded to only when it was convenient to rationalize some slaughter, orgy, or personal ascent to phony deityhood [see Nero et al]. To "rescue" the everyday human from this massive undercutting of their spiritual faiths, something had to arrive and bring "good news".

This arrival was best done not at Rome but within the Empire --- best perhaps in some not-quite-backwater culture, but one which had access to the whole Roman world and beyond, and had a base monotheism to build upon. Jesus then came not to redeem us from a non-existent hereditary sin, but from an atheistic or at least agnostic massacre of all faith traditions. Jesus, if one insists, "redeemed" us not from original sin, but from atheistic Rome. And did so "finally", establishing a spiritual life guide which, due to its universality, "redeems" us from any future atheistic political monstrosity which did arise and may in future arrive.

That sort of "redemption" is quite sufficient to warrant God's heroic act, and my forever thank you.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The Guardian's John Gray just published an article titled "What scares the new athiests":

In 1929, the Thinker’s Library, a series established by the Rationalist Press Association to advance secular thinking and counter the influence of religion in Britain, published an English translation of the German biologist Ernst Haeckel’s 1899 book The Riddle of the Universe. Celebrated as “the German Darwin”, Haeckel was one of the most influential public intellectuals of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century; The Riddle of the Universe sold half a million copies in Germany alone, and was translated into dozens of other languages. Hostile to Jewish and Christian traditions, Haeckel devised his own “religion of science” called Monism, which incorporated an anthropology that divided the human species into a hierarchy of racial groups. Though he died in 1919, before the Nazi Party had been founded, his ideas, and widespread influence in Germany, unquestionably helped to create an intellectual climate in which policies of racial slavery and genocide were able to claim a basis in science.

The Thinker’s Library also featured works by Julian Huxley, grandson of TH Huxley, the Victorian biologist who was known as “Darwin’s bulldog” for his fierce defence of evolutionary theory. A proponent of “evolutionary humanism”, which he described as “religion without revelation”, Julian Huxley shared some of Haeckel’s views, including advocacy of eugenics. In 1931, Huxley wrote that there was “a certain amount of evidence that the negro is an earlier product of human evolution than the Mongolian or the European, and as such might be expected to have advanced less, both in body and mind”. Statements of this kind were then commonplace: there were many in the secular intelligentsia – including HG Wells, also a contributor to the Thinker’s Library – who looked forward to a time when “backward” peoples would be remade in a western mould or else vanish from the world.

But by the late 1930s, these views were becoming suspect: already in 1935, Huxley admitted that the concept of race was “hardly definable in scientific terms”. While he never renounced eugenics, little was heard from him on the subject after the second world war. The science that pronounced western people superior was bogus – but what shifted Huxley’s views wasn’t any scientific revelation: it was the rise of Nazism, which revealed what had been done under the aegis of Haeckel-style racism.

It has often been observed that Christianity follows changing moral fashions, all the while believing that it stands apart from the world. The same might be said, with more justice, of the prevalent version of atheism. If an earlier generation of unbelievers shared the racial prejudices of their time and elevated them to the status of scientific truths, evangelical atheists do the same with the liberal values to which western societies subscribe today – while looking with contempt upon “backward” cultures that have not abandoned religion. The racial theories promoted by atheists in the past have been consigned to the memory hole – and today’s most influential atheists would no more endorse racist biology than they would be seen following the guidance of an astrologer. But they have not renounced the conviction that human values must be based in science; now it is liberal values which receive that accolade. There are disputes, sometimes bitter, over how to define and interpret those values, but their supremacy is hardly ever questioned. For 21st century atheist missionaries, being liberal and scientific in outlook are one and the same.

It’s a reassuringly simple equation. In fact there are no reliable connections – whether in logic or history – between atheism, science and liberal values. When organised as a movement and backed by the power of the state, atheist ideologies have been an integral part of despotic regimes that also claimed to be based in science, such as the former Soviet Union. Many rival moralities and political systems – most of them, to date, illiberal – have attempted to assert a basis in science. All have been fraudulent and ephemeral. Yet the attempt continues in atheist movements today, which claim that liberal values can be scientifically validated and are therefore humanly universal.

Fortunately, this type of atheism isn’t the only one that has ever existed. There have been many modern atheisms, some of them more cogent and more intellectually liberating than the type that makes so much noise today. Campaigning atheism is a missionary enterprise, aiming to convert humankind to a particular version of unbelief; but not all atheists have been interested in propagating a new gospel, and some have been friendly to traditional faiths.

Evangelical atheists today view liberal values as part of an emerging global civilisation; but not all atheists, even when they have been committed liberals, have shared this comforting conviction. Atheism comes in many irreducibly different forms, among which the variety being promoted at the present time looks strikingly banal and parochial.

* * *
In itself, atheism is an entirely negative position. In pagan Rome, “atheist” (from the Greek atheos) meant anyone who refused to worship the established pantheon of deities. The term was applied to Christians, who not only refused to worship the gods of the pantheon but demanded exclusive worship of their own god. Many non-western religions contain no conception of a creator-god – Buddhism and Taoism, in some of their forms, are atheist religions of this kind – and many religions have had no interest in proselytising. In modern western contexts, however, atheism and rejection of monotheism are practically interchangeable. Roughly speaking, an atheist is anyone who has no use for the concept of God – the idea of a divine mind, which has created humankind and embodies in a perfect form the values that human beings cherish and strive to realise. Many who are atheists in this sense (including myself) regard the evangelical atheism that has emerged over the past few decades with bemusement. Why make a fuss over an idea that has no sense for you? There are untold multitudes who have no interest in waging war on beliefs that mean nothing to them. Throughout history, many have been happy to live their lives without bothering about ultimate questions. This sort of atheism is one of the perennial responses to the experience of being human.

As an organised movement, atheism is never non-committal in this way. It always goes with an alternative belief-system – typically, a set of ideas that serves to show the modern west is the high point of human development. In Europe from the late 19th century until the second world war, this was a version of evolutionary theory that marked out western peoples as being the most highly evolved. Around the time Haeckel was promoting his racial theories, a different theory of western superiority was developed by Marx. While condemning liberal societies and prophesying their doom, Marx viewed them as the high point of human development to date. (This is why he praised British colonialism in India as an essentially progressive development.) If Marx had serious reservations about Darwinism – and he did – it was because Darwin’s theory did not frame evolution as a progressive process.

The predominant varieties of atheist thinking, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, aimed to show that the secular west is the model for a universal civilisation. The missionary atheism of the present time is a replay of this theme; but the west is in retreat today, and beneath the fervour with which this atheism assaults religion there is an unmistakable mood of fear and anxiety. To a significant extent, the new atheism is the expression of a liberal moral panic.

Sam Harris, the American neuroscientist and author of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason (2004) and The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Moral Values (2010), who was arguably the first of the “new atheists”, illustrates this point. Following many earlier atheist ideologues, he wants a “scientific morality”; but whereas earlier exponents of this sort of atheism used science to prop up values everyone would now agree were illiberal, Harris takes for granted that what he calls a “science of good and evil” cannot be other than liberal in content. (Not everyone will agree with Harris’s account of liberal values, which appears to sanction the practice of torture: “Given what many believe are the exigencies of our war on terrorism,” he wrote in 2004, “the practice of torture, in certain circumstances, would seem to be not only permissible but necessary.”)

Harris’s militancy in asserting these values seems to be largely a reaction to Islamist terrorism. For secular liberals of his generation, the shock of the 11 September attacks went beyond the atrocious loss of life they entailed. The effect of the attacks was to place a question mark over the belief that their values were spreading – slowly, and at times fitfully, but in the long run irresistibly – throughout the world. As society became ever more reliant on science, they had assumed, religion would inexorably decline. No doubt the process would be bumpy, and pockets of irrationality would linger on the margins of modern life; but religion would dwindle away as a factor in human conflict. The road would be long and winding. But the grand march of secular reason would continue, with more and more societies joining the modern west in marginalising religion. Someday, religious belief would be no more important than personal hobbies or ethnic cuisines.

Today, it’s clear that no grand march is under way. The rise of violent jihadism is only the most obvious example of a rejection of secular life. Jihadist thinking comes in numerous varieties, mixing strands from 20th century ideologies, such as Nazism and Leninism, with elements deriving from the 18th century Wahhabist Islamic fundamentalist movement. What all Islamist movements have in common is a categorical rejection of any secular realm. But the ongoing reversal in secularisation is not a peculiarly Islamic phenomenon.

The resurgence of religion is a worldwide development. Russian Orthodoxy is stronger than it has been for over a century, while China is the scene of a reawakening of its indigenous faiths and of underground movements that could make it the largest Christian country in the world by the end of this century. Despite tentative shifts in opinion that have been hailed as evidence it is becoming less pious, the US remains massively and pervasively religious – it’s inconceivable that a professed unbeliever could become president, for example.

For secular thinkers, the continuing vitality of religion calls into question the belief that history underpins their values. To be sure, there is disagreement as to the nature of these values. But pretty well all secular thinkers now take for granted that modern societies must in the end converge on some version of liberalism. Never well founded, this assumption is today clearly unreasonable. So, not for the first time, secular thinkers look to science for a foundation for their values.

It’s probably just as well that the current generation of atheists seems to know so little of the longer history of atheist movements. When they assert that science can bridge fact and value, they overlook the many incompatible value-systems that have been defended in this way. There is no more reason to think science can determine human values today than there was at the time of Haeckel or Huxley. None of the divergent values that atheists have from time to time promoted has any essential connection with atheism, or with science. How could any increase in scientific knowledge validate values such as human equality and personal autonomy? The source of these values is not science. In fact, as the most widely-read atheist thinker of all time argued, these quintessential liberal values have their origins in monotheism.


* * *
The new atheists rarely mention Friedrich Nietzsche, and when they do it is usually to dismiss him. This can’t be because Nietzsche’s ideas are said to have inspired the Nazi cult of racial inequality – an unlikely tale, given that the Nazis claimed their racism was based in science. The reason Nietzsche has been excluded from the mainstream of contemporary atheist thinking is that he exposed the problem atheism has with morality. It’s not that atheists can’t be moral – the subject of so many mawkish debates. The question is which morality an atheist should serve.

It’s a familiar question in continental Europe, where a number of thinkers have explored the prospects of a “difficult atheism” that doesn’t take liberal values for granted. It can’t be said that anything much has come from this effort. Georges Bataille’s postmodern project of “atheology” didn’t produce the godless religion he originally intended, or any coherent type of moral thinking. But at least Bataille, and other thinkers like him, understood that when monotheism has been left behind morality can’t go on as before. Among other things, the universal claims of liberal morality become highly questionable.

It’s impossible to read much contemporary polemic against religion without the impression that for the “new atheists” the world would be a better place if Jewish and Christian monotheism had never existed. If only the world wasn’t plagued by these troublesome God-botherers, they are always lamenting, liberal values would be so much more secure. Awkwardly for these atheists, Nietzsche understood that modern liberalism was a secular incarnation of these religious traditions. As a classical scholar, he recognised that a mystical Greek faith in reason had shaped the cultural matrix from which modern liberalism emerged. Some ancient Stoics defended the ideal of a cosmopolitan society; but this was based in the belief that humans share in the Logos, an immortal principle of rationality that was later absorbed into the conception of God with which we are familiar. Nietzsche was clear that the chief sources of liberalism were in Jewish and Christian theism: that is why he was so bitterly hostile to these religions. He was an atheist in large part because he rejected liberal values.

To be sure, evangelical unbelievers adamantly deny that liberalism needs any support from theism. If they are philosophers, they will wheel out their rusty intellectual equipment and assert that those who think liberalism relies on ideas and beliefs inherited from religion are guilty of a genetic fallacy. Canonical liberal thinkers such as John Locke and Immanuel Kant may have been steeped in theism; but ideas are not falsified because they originate in errors. The far-reaching claims these thinkers have made for liberal values can be detached from their theistic beginnings; a liberal morality that applies to all human beings can be formulated without any mention of religion. Or so we are continually being told. The trouble is that it’s hard to make any sense of the idea of a universal morality without invoking an understanding of what it is to be human that has been borrowed from theism. The belief that the human species is a moral agent struggling to realise its inherent possibilities – the narrative of redemption that sustains secular humanists everywhere – is a hollowed-out version of a theistic myth. The idea that the human species is striving to achieve any purpose or goal – a universal state of freedom or justice, say – presupposes a pre-Darwinian, teleological way of thinking that has no place in science. Empirically speaking, there is no such collective human agent, only different human beings with conflicting goals and values. If you think of morality in scientific terms, as part of the behaviour of the human animal, you find that humans don’t live according to iterations of a single universal code. Instead, they have fashioned many ways of life. A plurality of moralities is as natural for the human animal as the variety of languages.

At this point, the dread spectre of relativism tends to be raised. Doesn’t talk of plural moralities mean there can be no truth in ethics? Well, anyone who wants their values secured by something beyond the capricious human world had better join an old-fashioned religion. If you set aside any view of humankind that is borrowed from monotheism, you have to deal with human beings as you find them, with their perpetually warring values.

This isn’t the relativism celebrated by postmodernists, which holds that human values are merely cultural constructions. Humans are like other animals in having a definite nature, which shapes their experiences whether they like it or not. No one benefits from being tortured or persecuted on account of their religion or sexuality. Being chronically poor is rarely, if ever, a positive experience. Being at risk of violent death is bad for human beings whatever their culture. Such truisms could be multiplied. Universal human values can be understood as something like moral facts, marking out goods and evils that are generically human. Using these universal values, it may be possible to define a minimum standard of civilised life that every society should meet; but this minimum won’t be the liberal values of the present time turned into universal principles.

Universal values don’t add up to a universal morality. Such values are very often conflicting, and different societies resolve these conflicts in divergent ways. The Ottoman empire, during some of its history, was a haven of toleration for religious communities who were persecuted in Europe; but this pluralism did not extend to enabling individuals to move from one community to another, or to form new communities of choice, as would be required by a liberal ideal of personal autonomy. The Hapsburg empire was based on rejecting the liberal principle of national self-determination; but – possibly for that very reason – it was more protective of minorities than most of the states that succeeded it. Protecting universal values without honouring what are now seen as core liberal ideals, these archaic imperial regimes were more civilised than a great many states that exist today.

For many, regimes of this kind are imperfect examples of what all human beings secretly want – a world in which no one is unfree. The conviction that tyranny and persecution are aberrations in human affairs is at the heart of the liberal philosophy that prevails today. But this conviction is supported by faith more than evidence. Throughout history there have been large numbers who have been happy to relinquish their freedom as long as those they hate – gay people, Jews, immigrants and other minorities, for example – are deprived of freedom as well. Many have been ready to support tyranny and oppression. Billions of human beings have been hostile to liberal values, and there is no reason for thinking matters will be any different in future.

An older generation of liberal thinkers accepted this fact. As the late Stuart Hampshire put it:

“It is not only possible, but, on present evidence, probable that most conceptions of the good, and most ways of life, which are typical of commercial, liberal, industrialised societies will often seem altogether hateful to substantial minorities within these societies and even more hateful to most of the populations within traditional societies … As a liberal by philosophical conviction, I think I ought to expect to be hated, and to be found superficial and contemptible, by a large part of mankind.”

Today this a forbidden thought. How could all of humankind not want to be as we imagine ourselves to be? To suggest that large numbers hate and despise values such as toleration and personal autonomy is, for many people nowadays, an intolerable slur on the species. This is, in fact, the quintessential illusion of the ruling liberalism: the belief that all human beings are born freedom-loving and peaceful and become anything else only as a result of oppressive conditioning. But there is no hidden liberal struggling to escape from within the killers of the Islamic State and Boko Haram, any more than there was in the torturers who served the Pol Pot regime. To be sure, these are extreme cases. But in the larger sweep of history, faith-based violence and persecution, secular and religious, are hardly uncommon – and they have been widely supported. It is peaceful coexistence and the practice of toleration that are exceptional.

* * *
Considering the alternatives that are on offer, liberal societies are well worth defending. But there is no reason for thinking these societies are the beginning of a species-wide secular civilisation of the kind of which evangelical atheists dream.

In ancient Greece and Rome, religion was not separate from the rest of human activity. Christianity was less tolerant than these pagan societies, but without it the secular societies of modern times would hardly have been possible. By adopting the distinction between what is owed to Caesar and what to God, Paul and Augustine – who turned the teaching of Jesus into a universal creed – opened the way for societies in which religion was no longer coextensive with life. Secular regimes come in many shapes, some liberal, others tyrannical. Some aim for a separation of church and state as in the US and France, while others – such as the Ataturkist regime that until recently ruled in Turkey – assert state control over religion. Whatever its form, a secular state is no guarantee of a secular culture. Britain has an established church, but despite that fact – or more likely because of it – religion has a smaller role in politics than in America and is less publicly divisive than it is in France.

There is no sign anywhere of religion fading away, but by no means all atheists have thought the disappearance of religion possible or desirable. Some of the most prominent – including the early 19th-century poet and philosopher Giacomo Leopardi, the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, the Austro-Hungarian philosopher and novelist Fritz Mauthner (who published a four-volume history of atheism in the early 1920s) and Sigmund Freud, to name a few – were all atheists who accepted the human value of religion. One thing these atheists had in common was a refreshing indifference to questions of belief. Mauthner – who is remembered today chiefly because of a dismissive one-line mention in Wittgenstein’s Tractatus – suggested that belief and unbelief were both expressions of a superstitious faith in language. For him, “humanity” was an apparition which melts away along with the departing Deity. Atheism was an experiment in living without taking human concepts as realities. Intriguingly, Mauthner saw parallels between this radical atheism and the tradition of negative theology in which nothing can be affirmed of God, and described the heretical medieval Christian mystic Meister Eckhart as being an atheist in this sense.

Above all, these unevangelical atheists accepted that religion is definitively human. Though not all human beings may attach great importance to them, every society contains practices that are recognisably religious. Why should religion be universal in this way? For atheist missionaries this is a decidedly awkward question. Invariably they claim to be followers of Darwin. Yet they never ask what evolutionary function this species-wide phenomenon serves. There is an irresolvable contradiction between viewing religion naturalistically – as a human adaptation to living in the world – and condemning it as a tissue of error and illusion. What if the upshot of scientific inquiry is that a need for illusion is built into in the human mind? If religions are natural for humans and give value to their lives, why spend your life trying to persuade others to give them up?

The answer that will be given is that religion is implicated in many human evils. Of course this is true. Among other things, Christianity brought with it a type of sexual repression unknown in pagan times. Other religions have their own distinctive flaws. But the fault is not with religion, any more than science is to blame for the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction or medicine and psychology for the refinement of techniques of torture. The fault is in the intractable human animal. Like religion at its worst, contemporary atheism feeds the fantasy that human life can be remade by a conversion experience – in this case, conversion to unbelief.

Evangelical atheists at the present time are missionaries for their own values. If an earlier generation promoted the racial prejudices of their time as scientific truths, ours aims to give the illusions of contemporary liberalism a similar basis in science. It’s possible to envision different varieties of atheism developing – atheisms more like those of Freud, which didn’t replace God with a flattering image of humanity. But atheisms of this kind are unlikely to be popular. More than anything else, our unbelievers seek relief from the panic that grips them when they realise their values are rejected by much of humankind. What today’s freethinkers want is freedom from doubt, and the prevailing version of atheism is well suited to give it to them.
 

Old Man Mike

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Cacophonic irritating mindnoise.

19th century and first half 20th century atheism could sort-of maintain a charade of "rational living" which was "superior" in value and vision to a theistic view of reality, but that was largely due to their ignorance of the inevitable direction of their philosophy, plus an amazing ability to string endless sentences together, each one of which trailed off into an absence of persuasiveness even to themselves. Still, if they talked and wrote enough "intellectually", and spent half their time reminding others of how sinful religion was, they could come away from their essentially empty speeches and tomes "believing" [ironic note] that they were on the path to actually making sense, and desirable sense.

What has crystallized though is the thorough meshing of these strains of atheism with materialistic reductionism into a "religion" of Scientism. Scientism, though flaunting the marvelous discoveries of the scientific method [which, by the way, EITHER atheism or theism may incorporate], speaks very quietly if at all about its endpoint vision: that humans are no more than elaborate biomachines, free will is an illusion, and that the bottomline of an individual's existence is that there is no profound purpose to any of it. This sort of elimination of "moral purpose" from our lives reduces all the noise about deriving values from firm scientific research to something rather absurd --- almost ridiculous.

Atheism, if thoroughly married to materialist reductionism, ends in a big complex universe running downhill to a heat death end where everything has been destroyed and nothing remains of any of our illusory purposeful acts. As the atheist-reductionist Nobelist Steven Weinberg said when pushed to the endgame: "It seems that the story of humanity is in the end a tragic one." Well, to my atheist friends, franticly searching for meaning, I pray for you. In "my" universe this is a problem that I don't have. I have problems living my life in proper Morality and Love, and failing often, but I thank "my" GOD that I wake up each day to a purposeful life.
 

IrishinSyria

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Cacophonic irritating mindnoise.

19th century and first half 20th century atheism could sort-of maintain a charade of "rational living" which was "superior" in value and vision to a theistic view of reality, but that was largely due to their ignorance of the inevitable direction of their philosophy, plus an amazing ability to string endless sentences together, each one of which trailed off into an absence of persuasiveness even to themselves. Still, if they talked and wrote enough "intellectually", and spent half their time reminding others of how sinful religion was, they could come away from their essentially empty speeches and tomes "believing" [ironic note] that they were on the path to actually making sense, and desirable sense.

What has crystallized though is the thorough meshing of these strains of atheism with materialistic reductionism into a "religion" of Scientism. Scientism, though flaunting the marvelous discoveries of the scientific method [which, by the way, EITHER atheism or theism may incorporate], speaks very quietly if at all about its endpoint vision: that humans are no more than elaborate biomachines, free will is an illusion, and that the bottomline of an individual's existence is that there is no profound purpose to any of it. This sort of elimination of "moral purpose" from our lives reduces all the noise about deriving values from firm scientific research to something rather absurd --- almost ridiculous.

Atheism, if thoroughly married to materialist reductionism, ends in a big complex universe running downhill to a heat death end where everything has been destroyed and nothing remains of any of our illusory purposeful acts. As the atheist-reductionist Nobelist Steven Weinberg said when pushed to the endgame: "It seems that the story of humanity is in the end a tragic one." Well, to my atheist friends, franticly searching for meaning, I pray for you. In "my" universe this is a problem that I don't have. I have problems living my life in proper Morality and Love, and failing often, but I thank "my" GOD that I wake up each day to a purposeful life.

Is the criticism of atheism then that if we take it to it's logical conclusion, we don't like what it has to say? Are we so uncreative as a species that we can't create meaning and purpose for ourselves?


As for the original 3 questions:

1. Don't know, gun to my head, I say no. To me it comes down to a problem of irreducible complexity: if the criticism of the "there is no God" theory of the universe is that you can't explain how everything came to be, I'd say the same criticism but in much stronger form can be leveled against any divine explanation for existence: you have the problem of explaining how a god powerful enough to create reality came to be.

Obviously, either way, the ultimate answer lies beyond human knowledge.

2. OMM said it best in his original answer. The bible is everything: history, law, tradition, myth, poetry, etc...

3. What holds true for the Bible, holds true for Jesus. I do believe that he was a real person. I don't believe everything that's been said about him...even in the Bible. Sorting out what is real and what isn't is beyond me, but I know that I very much believe in his overarching message of love, charity, and forgiveness.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Is the criticism of atheism then that if we take it to it's logical conclusion, we don't like what it has to say?

Yes. It's horrifyingly depressing. Though few self-avowed atheists will admit to such.

Are we so uncreative as a species that we can't create meaning and purpose for ourselves?

That's Nietzsche; no objective morality, just the "will to power". If you're comfortable with that, it's at least a coherent alternative to monotheism. But again, you'll find very few "secular humanists" that fit this description, because it's very difficult to sell.
 

alohagoirish

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To paraphrase Joe Campbell , the energy that informs existence is transcendent and it is beyond our pay grade. But what is true is that all of us, theist and rationalist alike share is the same energy, are part of it, along with everything else that exists.

Campbell tells a story of a priest that comes up to him and asks " do you have faith Joe" and he responds " father I don't need faith I have experience".

I like to look at the sun and feel kind of warm that the energy that informs and drives that star also fuels the light in me!

Campbell feels comfortable saying that all religions are true in a sense and even though he sees monotheism as a bit materialistic and simplistic he has great empathy for all myth throughout all of human existence and its attempts to find our place in it.

Campbell is somewhat tough sledding as a read but I recommend his 6 or 7 hours with Bill Moyers recorded shortly before his death . Its both illuminating and uplifting ,and offers so much heartfelt empathy for the struggles of humanity to find its footing.
 

ACamp1900

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Joe Campbell, father of one ACamp.... Just sayin...
 

IrishinSyria

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Yes. It's horrifyingly depressing. Though few self-avowed atheists will admit to such.



That's Nietzsche; no objective morality, just the "will to power". If you're comfortable with that, it's at least a coherent alternative to monotheism. But again, you'll find very few "secular humanists" that fit this description, because it's very difficult to sell.

I've always found existentialism inspiring. I like the idea that we alone are responsible for our fate. That there might not be a higher plan, that Sisyphus pushing against the boulder will never reach the top, that the culmination of his (and our) experience will be the strain of his muscles as the lactic acid builds up, with no relief... no better times... in the future. These are our circumstances, we make of them what we will.

That being said, I understand why it's not an appealing world view to many. What I don't understand is why the desirability (or lack thereof) of a world view should matter. I guess from a descriptive standpoint, it makes sense that people will be more drawn to ideas that hold more mass appeal. But if we're asking what view is more likely to be right.... it's far from clear to me that the desirability of a worldview is indicative of its underlying truth.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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To paraphrase Joe Campbell , the energy that informs existence is transcendent and it is beyond our pay grade. But what is true is that all of us, theist and rationalist alike share is the same energy, are part of it, along with everything else that exists.

Campbell tells a story of a priest that comes up to him and asks " do you have faith Joe" and he responds " father I don't need faith I have experience".

I like to look at the sun and feel kind of warm that the energy that informs and drives that star also fuels the light in me!

Campbell feels comfortable saying that all religions are true in a sense and even though he sees monotheism as a bit materialistic and simplistic he has great empathy for all myth throughout all of human existence and its attempts to find our place in it.

Campbell is somewhat tough sledding as a read but I recommend his 6 or 7 hours with Bill Moyers recorded shortly before his death . Its both illuminating and uplifting ,and offers so much heartfelt empathy for the struggles of humanity to find its footing.

I've purchased two of Campbell's books, of which only the first I've made a dent. I like it, it's great reading so far. I'll reply with something of substance after I've finished at least one of his works.

FYI: the two that I have are: "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" and "The Writer's Journey"

I've always found existentialism inspiring. I like the idea that we alone are responsible for our fate. That there might not be a higher plan, that Sisyphus pushing against the boulder will never reach the top, that the culmination of his (and our) experience will be the strain of his muscles as the lactic acid builds up, with no relief... no better times... in the future. These are our circumstances, we make of them what we will.

That being said, I understand why it's not an appealing world view to many. What I don't understand is why the desirability (or lack thereof) of a world view should matter. I guess from a descriptive standpoint, it makes sense that people will be more drawn to ideas that hold more mass appeal. But if we're asking what view is more likely to be right.... it's far from clear to me that the desirability of a worldview is indicative of its underlying truth.

Existentialism, in the common vernacular, is encouraging at the onset but becomes heavier and heavier to carry as you go on. Perhaps I lack the fortitude to carry the existentialist mantle but it's inability to have purpose is draining.

As to your point about making our own meaning, I think that point dives into the semiotics of our lives. We are an animal that has either created meaning as we've developed more capacity for abstraction and understanding or we've discovered meaning that preexisted our finding it. Are we capable of creating meaning? We can create semantics but can we create meaning?

This might be at the heart of most metaphysical conversations.

Further, I'd say I'm an existentialist in a classical sense ;) I believe existence preceded essence. A point Augustine implicitly disagreed with but Aquinas helped correct.
 

Old Man Mike

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Every "final answer" is indeed above our paygrade, and therefore a matter of faith/belief. I believe that every thoughtful Catholic would accept this at least in the details. What we see in the modern reductionist world, though, are very vocal proponents of Scientism who are NOT honestly admitting that they occupy a position of belief no "firmer" or proven than the religious. This is intellectual dishonesty from the alleged purveyors of intellectual straightforwardness, and a massive ironic hypocrisy.

My opinion as to a "final" answer for myself is:

A). I admit that it's going to be based on Faith;
B). That Faith will come to me through means other than the scientific method or logical positivism, which by definition have nothing to do with Faith;
C). The Faith will come to me without answers that I fully, at my paygrade, understand, so that I will remain only humbly "religio" [bound] to the details --- but faithful to the grander conception;
D). The Faith HAS come to me through scientifically-unacceptable routes involving the holistic, communing, or "mystical" part of my consciousness --- call it the "intuition" as it's most pedestrian and sterile label;
E). Meditation, or simply being quiet in contact with the Creation, has provided much of this --- this is Joe Campbell's "experience". He says that this obviates his need for Faith, but if true [Campbell WILL exaggerate his views for effect sometimes] it was because he felt no need to explore deeper into conceptualization --- "felt reality", even with some vagueness, was OK for him;
F). Unless Campbell was a fully-experienced mystic capable of immersing into the holistic oceanic state with full loss of ego-consciousness almost by flipping a switch, then such a cessation of the thinking process would not satisfy me. I do not achieve the mystic communion so casually, and thus insist on continuing to meditate and listen to the Spirit;
G). The picture that I get is of a Creation designed to have Purpose, and that purpose involves purposeful lives by humans to be able to make Love decisions, according to the Gospel message of Love brought by Jesus. It is a Faith-based "theory", but one envisioning a Universe worth living in, though challenging;
H). The value, for me, of having such a faith-vision that I cast my belief behind, is that it is HUGELY encouraging of me to live a life of Right-Action, and Responsible Citizenship. As I feel the "tug" of Heaven's influence on my conscience during daily life, I think that it might be nice if ALL citizens felt that same tug. {some of this tug becomes a true Love of the Creator by the way --- not only some fear of hellfire, which has almost entirely left me}. Thus theism, higher moral vision, and the concept of the good society rallying to provide an environment supportive of all citizens, seems far more "practical" [even] than a reductionist automaton world reacting to stimulus/response forces in restricted [fundamentally non-free] ways.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Every "final answer" is indeed above our paygrade, and therefore a matter of faith/belief. I believe that every thoughtful Catholic would accept this at least in the details. What we see in the modern reductionist world, though, are very vocal proponents of Scientism who are NOT honestly admitting that they occupy a position of belief no "firmer" or proven than the religious. This is intellectual dishonesty from the alleged purveyors of intellectual straightforwardness, and a massive ironic hypocrisy.

This is an important clarification. I have no problem with atheism per se. Principled unbelief has been a respectable philosophical position for centuries. My issue, as Gray describes well in his essay above, is with evangelical atheism. Mostly because it's both incoherent and hypocritical.
 

Old Man Mike

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IrishinSyria asks several very good questions. I, of course, can't answer any of them. But that doesn't stop us on IE from giving opinions, so here are mine:

"Are we so uncreative a species that we can't create meaning and purpose for ourselves?"

To a significant degree this question depends upon a more basic assumption about the nature of humanity. We have been discussing the dichotomous theories of atheism vs theism and whether there is a profound spiritual element in humanity.

A). If there IS, then that spiritual element coupled with a creative GOD [theism] must be a factor in the meaning and purpose of life, so that "no" we don't [in that scenario] create it by ourselves. We might, as the modern parlance goes, "co-create" our vision of a meaningful, purposeful, proper life, but GOD is essentially part of that.
B). If their is NO god or spirituality [i.e. the materialist reductionist model of Scientism], then in honesty what are our options? If we are Scientistic and right, then we are complicated biomachines with only the illusion of free will. We are subject to the basic animal drives of self-preservation and the desire for pleasure vs pain. We are essentially fancy animals of extreme intelligence founded upon a Darwinian base of ego-centric hedonism. Ego-centric hedonism is what Kohlberg determined to be "Stage Two Moral Development", the meagre step "above" the self-centered "moral" drives of a very young child. For the Kohlberg Stage Two individual, nothing really matters except their own situation: safety, security, pleasure, pain avoidance. It is a state which generates sociopaths. If a Stage Two doesn't act much like a sociopath, it is due to fear or some other dependency, the risking of which generates fear. A fearless Stage Two can readily become, say, a serial killer for personal "fun", for instance. Thankfully, other societal and individual-survival-instinct forces minimize ego-centric serial "anythings" from destroying the fabric of community life.

There IS one embedded instinct which mimics a "care-for-others" pseudo-spiritual behavior without there being GOD needed [in theory]. That is the instinct that most men have to protect women, especially women in their reproductive years. Nature understandably made that pretty important for species survival. At the purely Darwinian level, however, the male "rescuer" instinct is followed by the feeling that the rescued woman owes him something for his trouble, whereas in a spiritual, GOD-based Creation, she does not [it is simply our obvious moral duty]. There are a few other embedded instincts regarding babies and very young children, for which a similar analysis works. The GOD-based Creation makes these helping behaviors moral duties, with Love content; the Scientistic Universe makes these mere instincts which, since genetically embedded, cannot really be compared with "purposeful" meaningful action in any profound definition of that.

So my answer, poor as it is, is that "no, we aren't capable of creating meaning and purpose for ourselves in any but romantic fiction types of ways, which will be based on [sans spirituality] only, in the end, what we individually want at the moment. If we decide that we don't want this anymore, we just go another direction, abandoning our previous attachments without caring."



A second great question: "Is the [philosophical] criticism of atheism that we don't like what it has to say?"

A). Yes.
B). This seemingly arbitrary response is, however, defensible in my mind. We have been discussing how neither atheism nor theism are based on simple obvious fact. The varying positions within each category are all matters of "faith." Whereas it is not a legitimate decision to ignore matters of FACT if we don't like what they are telling us [we sadly do this all the time with environmental issues], it is perfectly acceptable to be doubtful of things which are telling us stuff that is "incongruent" or disturbing or undesirable if this is NOT based upon fact. When a naive but open mind begins his or her walking the path of life, it is perfectly understandable to migrate towards "the better vision." If the path in that direction becomes blocked by fact, then it must be abandoned. If it becomes strewn with awkward boulders which do not have the status of fact, then it should acquire serious doubt. But if it remains mainly clear and harmonious, then why not continue upon it? [especially if it seems "fertile" for the Peace of the "Soul"]. The atheistic Scientistic path for me is strewn with massive horrifying boulders. As I walk the Spiritual path, it is not. In fact, the accompanying intuitive "mystic" feedback along that way comes very close to being itself "Fact", which reduces the atheistic Scientistic path to a firm Dead End. ... and, synchronistically, a Dead End is exactly how that path pictures the result of all things.
 

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Andreas Wagner just published an article in Aeon titled "Possible Creatures: Nature's Library of Platonic Forms":

When it slithers through the grass, the legless glass lizard is indistinguishable from a snake. But harass it and it will perform a very un-snakelike feat. It will leave its tail behind – still wriggling – and slide away. That isn’t the only surprise the glass lizard has in store. A careful look also reveals inflexible jaws, movable eyelids, and ear openings. These are all traits that lizards display but snakes don’t. One way or another, this peculiar creature slithers between the cracks of our familiar categories.

To organise the messy diversity of a million-plus different life forms, we need to sort them into the boxes we call species. And what would be more natural than using visible traits such as legs, jaws or ears for that purpose? About a century before Charles Darwin, the systematist Carl Linnaeus did just that when he created our modern classification of life’s diversity. So did Georges Cuvier, the father of palaeontology, when he classified fossils that had been preserved through the ages.

Classification requires comparison. In the process, we see how deeply similar the legs of birds and lions are, or the flowers of roses and marigolds. Such resemblances form a cornerstone of Darwin’s great insight that all life forms a grand family. Yet scientists such as Cuvier rejected the idea of evolution’s great chain of living beings, drawing support from the large gaps that then existed in the fossil record. ‘If the species have changed by degrees,’ he wrote in 1827, ‘we should find some traces of these gradual modifications.’ If he had seen the intermediate steps that we have now seen, perhaps he would have changed his mind.

But perhaps not. For the reasons to reject evolution go deeper than incomplete knowledge. In fact, we can follow them all the way back to Plato, whose influence looms so large that the 20th-century thinker Alfred North Whitehead could relegate the entirety of European philosophy to a ‘series of footnotes’ to his work.

For Plato, the perceptible material world is like a faint shadow of a higher reality. What really matters is the realm of abstract concepts. To a Platonist, the essence of soccer balls, golf balls and tennis balls is their ball-like shape. It is this pure, abstract and unchanging essence that is real, not the physical balls, whose existence is as fleeting and impermanent as a shadow.

A systematist’s task might be daunting, but it becomes manageable if each species is distinguished by its own Platonic essence. For example, a legless body and flexible jaws might be part of a snake’s essence, different from that of other reptiles. The task is to find a species’ essence. Indeed, the essence really is the species in the world of Platonists. To be a snake is nothing other than to be an instance of the form of the snake.

The only problem: the glass lizard. And hundreds of other creatures that defy easy categorisation, such as Eupodophis, from the late Cretaceous period, a snake with rudimentary hind legs. In an ever-changing Darwinian world, species incessantly spew forth new species whose traits can shade into one another. The 20th-century biologist Ernst Mayr called Plato the ‘great antihero of evolutionism’, and in fact it was Mayr who replaced the essentialist concept of species with a modern biological alternative, based on individuals in the same population that can interbreed.

But as has happened many times before, Plato might have the last word. We just need to look deeper than the ephemeral appearance of living things.

The glass lizard itself comprises billions of cells. Each cell contains thousands of different kinds of proteins – long string-like molecules made of 20 different kinds of amino acid. And each of these proteins has a unique ability. It might catalyse a chemical reaction, or prevent a cell from collapsing, or sense nutrients, or receive signals from other cells, and so on. Each of these abilities was an innovation – a qualitatively new and useful feature that can make the difference between life and death – when it first arose, millions of years ago.

How do random DNA changes lead to innovation? Darwin’s concept of natural selection, although crucial to understand evolution, doesn’t help much. The thing is, selection can only spread innovations that already exist. The botanist Hugo de Vries said it best in 1905: ‘Natural selection can explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest.’ (Half a century earlier, Darwin had already admitted that calling variations random is just another way of admitting that we don’t know their origins.)

A metaphor might help to clarify the problem. Imagine a giant library of books containing all possible sequences of letters in the alphabet. Such a library would be huge beyond imagination, and most of its texts would of course be pure gibberish. But some would contain islands of intelligibility – a word here, a Haiku there – in a sea of random letters. Still others would tell all stories real and imagined: not only Dickens’s Oliver Twist or Goethe’s Faust, but all possible novels and dramas, the biography of every single human, true and false histories of the world, of other worlds as yet unseen, and so on. Some texts would include descriptions of countless technological innovations, from the wheel to the steam engine to the transistor – including countless innovations yet to be imagined. But the chances of choosing such a valuable tome by chance are minuscule.

A protein is a volume in a library just like this, written in a 20-letter alphabet of amino acids. And while protein texts might not be as long as Tolstoy’s War and Peace, their total number is still astonishing. For example, a library of every possible amino acid string that is 500 letters long would contain more than 10600 texts – a one with 600 trailing zeros. That vastly outnumbers the atoms in the visible universe.

The library is a giant space of the possible, encoding all the proteins that could be useful to life. But here’s the thing: evolution can’t simply look up the chemicals it needs in a giant catalogue. No, it has to inch its way painstakingly along the stacks. Imagine a crowd of browsers – each one representing an entire familial line – who must blindly explore the library, step by random step. This sounds like a party game, but there’s a grisly twist. A mutation that compromises an essential protein such as haemoglobin is punishable by death. On that ill-fated volume, the bloodline ends.

The challenge, then, is to land on texts that work. Nature has already discovered millions of them. Human engineers have discovered many more, and the pace of discovery shows no signs of slowing. To appreciate the innovative wonders hidden in these libraries, you need to go no further than the bewildering diversity of organisms all around us. Evolution’s giant epic unfolds while its populations scour these libraries.

If you had to find a text on a specific subject in such a library – without a catalogue – you would get utterly lost. Worse than that, if missteps can be fatal, you would quickly die. Yet life not only survived, it found countless new meaningful texts in these libraries. Understanding how it did that requires us to build the catalogue that evolution lacks. It demands that we work out how these libraries are organised to comprehend how innovation through blind search is possible.

For more than a decade, this endeavour has been a focus of my research at the University of Zurich and at the Santa Fe Institute in the US. We evolve molecules in the laboratory and record their journey through these libraries, together with any new and useful texts they find. We also map the locations of millions of molecules that nature’s populations have discovered in their billion-year journey. We use powerful computer simulations to explore those parts of a library that nature has not yet discovered. Through these efforts, we and others have found a system of organisation in these libraries that is as strange as it is perfect for guideless exploration.

Imagine that you could walk from any meaningful text to a neighbour, and from that to its neighbour, and onward from here, until you had traversed most of the library, altering most letters but leaving the meaning of the text (that is, the function of the protein) intact. Imagine also that you could walk from that first text into a different direction, change a different letter, and another one, and so on, again almost all the way through the library, without changing the text’s meaning. And imagine that you could start this journey in not just one but 100 different ways, each one tracing one of a myriad alternative paths through the library, each encoding only synonymous texts that differ in most letters. Nature’s libraries are just like that, permeated with sprawling networks of synonymous texts – I call them genotype networks – each encoding a molecule and its biochemical function.

If you laid out a human library like this you would be declared mad. It isn’t just that all the books on, say, transistor design would be spread throughout the library. Even more strangely, myriad texts would explain in different ways how to build the same transistor. In normal human libraries we like to have technical manuals in one section, and Darwin’s writings in another, and Tolstoy’s novels in yet another, so that we can make a beeline to whatever grabs our interest. But when you cannot make a beeline, because each step takes you in a random direction prescribed by a DNA mutation, it turns out that sprawling genotype networks are just what you need to survive.

Random DNA changes in some members of a population could disable an essential protein such as haemoglobin and lead to death, but because genotype networks exist, other mutations can create a synonymous text that preserves the protein’s function and saves the organism. This cycle of mutation and natural selection repeats in the survivors’ descendants. Some of them die, but others live and get to take one step further. Step by step, the population of survivors spreads out through the library in a process that unfolds over many generations.

Relatives of the lizard’s oxygen transport protein illustrate how far this exploration can go. They are all descendants of a single long-forgotten ancestral protein that existed more than a billion years ago. By now, they occur not only all over the animal kingdom but even in plants. They have travelled far and wide throughout the library. And still they express the same chemical function. They all bind oxygen.

Their amino acid text, however, has diverged beyond recognition. Today’s haemoglobin proteins share as little as four per cent of the letters among their roughly 100 amino acids. It’s as if you could write a poem conveying the same meaning and emotions in myriad different ways. And there are many other molecular poems like it: proteins that help extract energy from nutrients, communicate between our cells, sense the world around us, and so on.

The remarkable thing is, having so many different ways to say the same thing means that there are many more possible slips of the tongue. And with each slip of the tongue comes the possibility of saying something different. Just as the word GOLD emerges from a single letter change in MOLD, some neighbours of a text express new meanings. And as the browsers work their way through each synonym for some original text, different innovations become accessible. By creating safe paths through the library, genotype networks create the very possibility of innovation.

Let me put this point as strongly as I can. Without these pathways of synonymous texts, these sets of genes that express precisely the same function in ever-shifting sequences of letters, it would not be possible to keep finding new innovations via random mutation. Evolution would not work.

So nature’s libraries and their sprawling networks go a long way towards explaining life’s capacity to evolve. But where do they come from? You cannot see them in the glass lizard or its anatomy. They are nowhere near life’s visible surface, nor are they underneath this surface, in the structure of its tissues and cells. They are not even in the submicroscopic structure of its DNA. They exist in a world of concepts, the kind of abstract concepts that mathematicians explore.

Does that make them any less real?

The question whether we create or discover new concepts – especially of the mathematical kind – has occupied humankind for more than 2,500 years, at least since the Pythagoreans, Plato’s intellectual ancestors, declared that ‘all is number’. Some believe with the Austrian philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein that mathematical truths are human inventions. But others believe with Plato that our visible world is a faint shadow of higher truths. Among them are many mathematicians and physicists, including Charles Fefferman, winner of the Fields medal, the equivalent of a Nobel Prize in mathematics. He expressed his experience when breaking new mathematical ground this way:

There’s something awe-inspiring. You aren’t creating. You’re discovering what was there all the time, and that is much more beautiful than anything that man can create.

In physics, the Nobel laureate Eugene Wigner called it ‘the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics’. And indeed, it is not clear why Newton’s law of gravitation should apply to so much more than the falling apple that might have inspired it, why it should describe everything from accreting planets to entire solar systems and rotating galaxies. Except that it does. For whatever reason, reality appears to obey certain mathematical formulae.

Nature’s libraries add another dimension to a centuries-old debate about the reality of the Platonic realm. Until now, this debate largely revolved around abstractions like the ones we find in mathematics. With the genotype networks, a new element enters: experimental science.

The law of gravitation is not like the blueprint for a house you can build, but hemoglobin’s text is. We can manufacture this protein – or any other protein we choose from the protein library – and study its chemical meaning with sophisticated instruments. Novel texts found by humans include those encoding heat-resistant enzymes in laundry detergents and insulins that act faster or longer in the body than their natural counterparts. Together with thousands of natural proteins, these inhabitants of the protein library have proven surprising – more than anything we just made up.

Nature’s libraries are the fountains of biological innovation that Darwin was looking for. And unlike the realm of abstract forms that Plato envisioned, they are richer, more diverse, and more complex than the visible world. They harbour enough innovations for all the species Darwinian evolution has created – and could create. No planet would be large enough to explore all of them. The legless lizard and the rest of the living world, in all their glory, are just faint shadows of this Platonic realm of the possible.

Natural Law. Good science is an exploration of the mind of God. Conversely, scientism, with its materialist philosophical baggage, invariably results in bad science, since it dogmatically denies much of reality.
 
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Cackalacky

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I find that article significantly misleading and generally disheartening. It's shocking to me that the author would make such comparisons to reality and abstract philosophy like that.

The glass lizard doesn't have an "essence" in a manner of a snake. Snakes and legless lizards are simply employing preferred designs for their evolved lifestyle. Opposed to his point is trying to compare eels and sea snakes, who have similar environments, body shapes and food sources. But one has always lived in the ocean and the other is far more closely related to Cobras and reinvaded the ocean. These two much more unrelated organisms don't share an essence, merely an ability to take advantage of the ocean environment. That is a very flawed analogy. Even based on his explanation I am not sure why he writes these things. It has its traits purely from its ancestral lineage, which includes snakes, and further down the bush, amphibians, and even further... Fish. These traits arose from completely NATURAL selection pressures acting on it not abstract philosophy. Convergent/ divergent evolution is a far superior and more simple explanation than the rather large assertions promoted here.

This smacks of creationism which is TERRIBLE science/applied Logic. Additionally, taking swipes at Darwins formulation is petty. He quite clearly was onto something but it was incomplete. Regardless, his theory has been developed much more completely and agrees over multiple disciplines than just cladistics.

The sections about protein synthesis... Ugh .... Hemoglobin is far superior at taking up and using carbon monoxide than oxygen. That is really bad for oxygen breathing organisms. Why would that be the case if we shared the essence of other oxygen breathing organisms with different molecule? It works because we don't live in CO prevalent atmospheres, but should we be exposed to high CO, it is a death sent ice because other parts of our physiology are not compate with CO atmospheres.

Whiskeyjack, you are my boy but good science is good science and by definition cannot address something untestable. I know you know this. By injecting God or at a minimum assuming there is one as a a priori condition, is by definition, bad science.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Snakes and legless lizards are simply employing preferred designs for their evolved lifestyle.

Isn't that essentially what he's saying here:

Imagine that you could walk from any meaningful text to a neighbour, and from that to its neighbour, and onward from here, until you had traversed most of the library, altering most letters but leaving the meaning of the text (that is, the function of the protein) intact. Imagine also that you could walk from that first text into a different direction, change a different letter, and another one, and so on, again almost all the way through the library, without changing the text’s meaning. And imagine that you could start this journey in not just one but 100 different ways, each one tracing one of a myriad alternative paths through the library, each encoding only synonymous texts that differ in most letters. Nature’s libraries are just like that, permeated with sprawling networks of synonymous texts – I call them genotype networks – each encoding a molecule and its biochemical function.

In other words, these genotype networks create myriad ways for organisms to address similar challenges ("synonymous texts") without compromising the viability of key structures?

Opposed to his point is trying to compare eels and sea snakes, who have similar environments, body shapes and food sources. But one has always lived in the ocean and the other is far more closely related to Cobras and reinvaded the ocean. These two much more unrelated organisms don't share an essence, merely an ability to take advantage of the ocean environment. That is a very flawed analogy.

He didn't argue that eels and sea snakes are both elongated ocean dwellers who therefor must share the same essence.

Convergent/ divergent evolution is a far superior and more simple explanation than the rather large assertions promoted here.

You've surely read far more on this topic than I have, so forgive me if this is a silly question. But do theories of convergent/ divergent evolution posit naturalistic explanations for why such traits converge/ diverge? If not, Wagner's platonic argument here seems to supply the missing piece. Because there are "genotype networks" basically hardwired into the genetic library that allow organisms to adapt through mutations in predetermined safe ways that preserve the viability of key structures.

And that Platonic inference-- that there is an inherent design to creation-- is echoed by many mathematicians, as Wagner notes. We're basically exploring the programming code a vastly superior being used to create our universe.

Additionally, taking swipes at Darwins formulation is petty. He quite clearly was onto something but it was incomplete. Regardless, his theory has been developed much more completely and agrees over multiple disciplines than just cladistics.

How did he take a swipe at Darwin? He wrote:

(Half a century earlier, Darwin had already admitted that calling variations random is just another way of admitting that we don’t know their origins.)

Is that not true? And returning to my previous question, has Dawkins or anyone else advanced a naturalistic explanation for why evolution clearly converges/ diverges along seemingly predetermined tracks?

Whiskeyjack, you are my boy but good science is good science and by definition cannot address something untestable. I know you know this. By injecting God or at a minimum assuming there is one as a a priori condition, is by definition, bad science.

How is Wagner "injecting God" here? He's simply noticing that, much as theoretical mathematicians have, some crucial aspects of his field of study seem to advance in orderly ways which cannot be explained by naturalistic philosophy. If true, a platonist is likely to produce much better science in this field than a dogmatic naturalist, because the latter's philosophy has foreclosed productive lines of inquiry.
 
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