The Stakes Just Got Higher

[drake29]

Ok, you're obviously an idiot and don't get how ND works. That's fine and good to know---now I don't have to waste my time and can ignore your posts. Hopefully 2015 will provide you with maturity, intelligence, grace, and enlightenment. Happy New Year, dumb ass!

Haha, I'm glad you no longer wish to discuss this matter because your blue/gold sunglasses are blinding you from the truth. ND is already like every other football program in the country. Maybe not to the same extreme - but to some extent NDs football program is already shady. It's the nature of the business.

 

[phork]

Riiiiight, like ND has always had a squeaky clean program...I'm so tired of this BS about how ND does it the right way and everyone else is dirty. Guess what? ND has players that cheat on tests/homework/essays just like everyone else. Their players drink and some probably participate in recreational drug use. There are undoubtedly players on Notre Dame's roster that use steroids. To me there should be no middle ground, no gray area. Either be like EVERY OTHER PRO GRAM IN CFB (and spend more money than everyone else because we know ND is good for it) or stick the kids in a supervised dorm under lock and key; no parties, no academic dishonesty, no violations....So tired of mediocrity for the most storied football program in college football history.

ND has had players cheat like everyone, unlike everyone else they were all suspended. Starting players suspended for more than 1 quarter of football. DO players drink and recreationally use drugs, probably. Have they been caught? No, because their asses would be disciplined like every single one before them. The Steroids comment is laughable. And there is no middle ground. Either you are at school to learn and play football, or your play school and football is your job. NDs standards are the former and I am ok with that.

Again, do some of you guys really believe this? Michael Floyd was suspended 0 games for a DUI....Zero. and who cares about Spring ball. Prince Shambo - do I even have to go there?

Floyd was held off team activities until he proved to Kelly he fixed his issues. Happened in March served his 6 months, proved whatever it was he had to prove.

No, I did not go to ND. I was more interested in earning a college scholarship for athletics out of high school because it seems much more realistic (and fun) as opposed to studying my ass off day and night to have the chance to be accepted into a college there was no way my family could ever afford to send me to. I have no interest in whether or not any Notre Dame Football fans actually went to the school and truthfully it's something only a stuck up asshole would bring up. It's even worse than fans of a sports team that dog on new fans for jumping on the bandwagon. Get over yourself, this is football. These are young men responsible for making their own decisions, which in quite a few instances are wrong, immature, or just plain stupid. I'm not saying run a dirty program. I'm saying cut the high and mighty bullshit. Use the positives to your advantage but stop killing the program with petty shit like this academic fraud case. The way they handle incidents is ridiculous.

So you are in fact Cardale Jones. Why go to class when you came to play football?

Shembo was absolutely accused, he just wasn't held out of any football activity during an investigation. No it wasn't his fault that police failed to interview him immediately. And no I'm not saying he was guilty of anything. I'm saying in the circumstance it would have been wise to keep him out a game until they figured out what the hell was going on.

Accused is not guilty. And perhaps they already knew what the hell was going on. Much like you, other fan bases are quick to judge without facts in the case.

As far as Floyd goes - Mike was given an ultimatum after two previous run ins for alcohol related crimes. Strike 3 got him held out for spring ball...He didn't suffer academically or athletically. It was a slap on the wrist. How about Carlos Calabrese and Tommy Rees. You guys need to eat a slice of humble pie - I get what the university is about but the football program sits in a gray area between being a finer academic institution and being what ND football was 30 years ago.

Rees was hit with misdemeanors, were it felony he would have been kicked out school. Calabrese also a misdemeanor. Both served 1 game suspensions.

Haha, I'm glad you no longer wish to discuss this matter because your blue/gold sunglasses are blinding you from the truth. ND is already like every other football program in the country. Maybe not to the same extreme - but to some extent NDs football program is already shady. It's the nature of the business.

Shady how, exactly?

 

[drake29]

The thing about Floyd is the DUI happened in March and he was suspended until August. If it would have happened in August, he would have missed at least one game. Whether you agree with that or not is up to you but I understand why he didn't miss any games.

Technically he was approved to attend voluntary workouts over the summer but if Floyd gets arrested in August I'm not sure what happens.

 

[GoldenDomer]

OSU has gotten to ONE national championship, this year, and now they set a standard. We were there two years ago!!!!

They beat a much, much weaker Alabama team, and still have not beaten Oregon yet!

Once again, the only reality for college football fans is what happened last night... The winners are perfect, the losers suck.

I think they are currently the hot spot in our area. It's not just this year, but last night will have big implications in recruiting.

12-0 in 2012.
12-2 in 2013.
13-1 in 2014.

Urban will have them in the picture every year. We need to meet that consistency.

 

[kmoose]

Again, do some of you guys really believe this? Michael Floyd was suspended 0 games for a DUI....Zero. and who cares about Spring ball. Prince Shambo - do I even have to go there?

What I believe is that ND DOES discipline players more strictly, overall, than other programs. I also KNOW that ND graduates athletes like very few, if any, other institution. I believe that the kids are required to take real classes, and make real progress towards a degree. I also believe that there is some isolated cheating that takes place. But, when it does, and it is discovered that it has happened, ND addresses it like NO other program.

Who is Prince Shambo? Never heard of him. But I have heard of Prince Shembo, who was accused of sexual assault (NOT rape) by a girl who turned out to be mentally unstable. As far as I know, Prince Shembo was never charged with any crime, and never had any other issues, so I am not sure why you bring him up, as if you think that he should have had some kind of nebulous disciplinary action taken against him.

 

[kmoose]

I'm not sure I understand your point. There are only a finite number of scholarships to go around, why would "normal" students be turned away?

Because, if you understood Notre Dame, you would know that ND does not give out athletic scholarships. They give academic scholarships to athletes, but they do not account them separately from every other scholarship they give out. ND is a wealthy institution, but they do not print their own money. There are only so many scholarships to go around. So for every scholarship that you give an athlete who is maybe not really qualified to be admitted, you take a scholarship away from another student who might be eminently qualified.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Also, I think you can make a claim that you don't have to compromise academic and character values to be successful when Stanford has averaged 10 wins the last 6 seasons.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

let's see if we still want to be like OSU in a week when they get run over by Oregon like we did by Bama in 2012.

 

[GoldenDomer]

let's see if we still want to be like OSU in a week when they get run over by Oregon like we did by Bama in 2012.

I'll take it. Better than 8-5.

 

[irishff1014]

let's see if we still want to be like OSU in a week when they get run over by Oregon like we did by Bama in 2012.

I can tell you right now i would rather be 10-2 every season then to be like OSU. I love winning but lets face it they aren't on the ND level over all. Those players go there for mainly one reason and that's to play football.

 

[drake29]

ND has had players cheat like everyone, unlike everyone else they were all suspended. Starting players suspended for more than 1 quarter of football. DO players drink and recreationally use drugs, probably. Have they been caught? No, because their asses would be disciplined like every single one before them. The Steroids comment is laughable. And there is no middle ground. Either you are at school to learn and play football, or your play school and football is your job. NDs standards are the former and I am ok with that.

You think that ND catches and suspends all players that cheat on tests? That's a little foolish. As to drinking and getting caught - yes they were caught, yes they remained on the team (maybe a game, maybe miss football practice in the Spring - this is how other teams do it). Steroids in major college athletics is laughable? OK......



Floyd was held off team activities until he proved to Kelly he fixed his issues. Happened in March served his 6 months, proved whatever it was he had to prove.

Again - Floyd was cleared for voluntary workouts during the summer, he only missed Spring practice - not 6 months.



So you are in fact Cardale Jones. Why go to class when you came to play football?

Actually I did well in school when I was there - I left to pursue a career when my playing days were over. I actually do very well - my wife was a college grad with a 3.97 GPA and I make more than 2x annually. I still enjoy reading and learning new things, I don't need a piece of paper and thousands of dollars in debt to help me "make it".


Accused is not guilty. And perhaps they already knew what the hell was going on. Much like you, other fan bases are quick to judge without facts in the case.

I've said it before in this thread, but I guess I'll say it again for you here - I'm not saying anyone is guilty. Of course accused is not guilty, I'm not judging anyone. I'm literally saying exactly what you just said. Rather, that ND fans are quick to judge and use the 'holier than though' card when similar situations arise on NDs campus just like anywhere else.



Rees was hit with misdemeanors, were it felony he would have been kicked out school. Calabrese also a misdemeanor. Both served 1 game suspensions.

Rees was hit with misdemeanors because he plead down from a felony charge. Does this change the fact that he kneed a police officer in the chest?



Shady how, exactly?

If you think ND runs a squeaky clean program, you probably believe in spaghetti monsters - So I probably just typed this response in vain.

 

[Booslum31]

I agree that attracting recruits that can win on the field is crucial. What is more crucial is the way in which it is approached and accomplished.

Should the football team community become a separate footsbawl enclave unlike, apart and "elevated" above and beyond the general student population? The value of special skills, be they physical, social or academic, are valid considerations in light of balancing the community-at-large.

Juggling acceptance of a potential Rhodes Scholar (football player or not), a 6'10", 315 pound lineman with a marginal to sub-standard academic history and a semi-genius with sketchy social skills can't be easy.

Notre Dame has a small (in the 8,000 range) undergraduate student pool. That "demands" an acceptance of not much more than 2,000 per year, if that. Attrition is anticipated and expected, regardless of reason.

Competition for admission to ND grows yearly. How many qualified students do you turn away just to field championship football and basketball teams?

You would only need to turn away approximately 21 "more qualified" students each year on average. It cracks me up some times when I hear that some stud won't get in because he didn't take Spanish or French for a year or two in HS or that his standardized test score needs to go up. I'm for lowering the entrance standards (considerably) for those 21 recruits. Keep all behaviorail and classroom expectations where they are when they get here. It's sad but there seems to be an inverse relationship between academic performance and athletic perfomance (on average) with HS kids. Doesn't mean the kids can't do the academics...it just means that they haven't done the academics. I'm not an ND grad so I don't get the same charge out of talking about Grad rates, degree index, and academic excellence...in fact it sometimes annoys me when I want to talk football at a tailgate. I do love that ND does things the right way with respect to discipline and NOT sweeping shit under the rug. They do a great job in preparing these kids to be men.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

I'll take it. Better than 8-5.

Maybe it's because of my age or something, but I believe we can win 10 games a year and still not sell our souls like Urban Meyer. This team, as frustrating as it was, was in every game except SC. I'm for tweaking the standards a bit, but not completely changing what this university stands for to win a couple of extra football games a year. I believe you can have both, but clearly it's much harder to do it the way ND does. That's also the part that makes me a fan. Anyone see the tweet in October from the current OSU QB about not needing to go to class because they're there to play football?
I really do wish there was a better relationship between administration and football here. Like everyone seems to think, it is possible to ease admissions a bit without sacrificing your integrity as a university.

 

[Guest]

If you think ND runs a squeaky clean program, you probably believe in spaghetti monsters - So I probably just typed this response in vain.

The problem I have in figuring out how clean ND is is how cryptic they are in their discipline. We don't know what the Frozen 5 did beyond mere speculation. So are they very strict or just stricter than normal (while allowing certain levels of infractions).

 

[GoldenDomer]

Maybe it's because of my age or something, but I believe we can win 10 games a year and still not sell our souls like Urban Meyer. This team, as frustrating as it was, was in every game except SC. I'm for tweaking the standards a bit, but not completely changing what this university stands for to win a couple of extra football games a year. I believe you can have both, but clearly it's much harder to do it the way ND does. That's also the part that makes me a fan. Anyone see the tweet in October from the current OSU QB about not needing to go to class because they're there to play football?
I really do wish there was a better relationship between administration and football here. Like everyone seems to think, it is possible to ease admissions a bit without sacrificing your integrity as a university.

(See Stanford the last 6 seasons)

Also, I'm really old.

 

[MNIrishman]

So why doesn't ND grow beyond 8000 undergrad students? Most Universities grow over time as they become more popular and the population around them increases.

From 1950 to 1980, ND doubled in enrollment. But since, their enrollment has grown much slower while their admissions requirements grew tighter (IE SAT averages went from 1240 to 1360). So ND has purposely, by recent administration, been held from growing larger while choosing to become a more elite academic institution.

That does not bode well for an elite athletics program and now I can see why people like Urban will not come here. ND will likely never have a championship football team again, even if they manage to win a lot of games and be a 'good' football team.

ND doubled in enrollment as they began the transition to a major university under Fr. Hesburgh. In the same time span, the endowment increased dramatically too (from near nothing to hundreds of millions, to billions today). However, the university did not sacrifice its familial feel, undergraduate focus, sense of community, walkable close-knit campus, or other things that would be compromised for further expansion. Most universities find a point of stability and the ND administration seems to be holding to what they've got, though the recent additional dorm construction implies change may be on the horizon. I'm hoping that they don't increase enrollment too much, however, since growing too large too quickly would water down the incomparable ND experience.

 

[MNIrishman]

If you think ND runs a squeaky clean program, you probably believe in spaghetti monsters - So I probably just typed this response in vain.

Mods? It sounds like someone escaped from Mgoblog over here. Can we please put the troll back in his cage?

 

[NDRock]

Because, if you understood Notre Dame, you would know that ND does not give out athletic scholarships. They give academic scholarships to athletes, but they do not account them separately from every other scholarship they give out. ND is a wealthy institution, but they do not print their own money. There are only so many scholarships to go around. So for every scholarship that you give an athlete who is maybe not really qualified to be admitted, you take a scholarship away from another student who might be eminently qualified.

Well if the argument is whether or not to give any scholarships to athletes than I agree they do take a spot from a more academically qualified student. I read it that it would take more scholarships to field "championship football teams" (as stated in dshans post) than our recent mediocre teams. I just don't see where it would take more scholarships to field a championship level team unless the argument is there would be more attrition causing a few more scholarships a year.

 

[Guest]

ND doubled in enrollment as they began the transition to a major university under Fr. Hesburgh. In the same time span, the endowment increased dramatically too (from near nothing to hundreds of millions, to billions today). However, the university did not sacrifice its familial feel, undergraduate focus, sense of community, walkable close-knit campus, or other things that would be compromised for further expansion. Most universities find a point of stability and the ND administration seems to be holding to what they've got, though the recent additional dorm construction implies change may be on the horizon. I'm hoping that they don't increase enrollment too much, however, since growing too large too quickly would water down the incomparable ND experience.

Understood, thanks. I love ND because of who they are, but the reality we may be facing is that ND will not be a championship football team in the near future unless something changes. College football has become semi-pro and a big business, and ND is running a different model. Either way, I will still root for the Irish.

 

[kmoose]

Well if the argument is whether or not to give any scholarships to athletes than I agree they do take a spot from a more academically qualified student. I read it that it would take more scholarships to field "championship football teams" (as stated in dshans post) than our recent mediocre teams. I just don't see where it would take more scholarships to field a championship level team unless the argument is there would be more attrition causing a few more scholarships a year.

It wouldn't take more scholarships. And that's not what dshans said. He said,

...Competition for admission to ND grows yearly. How many qualified students do you turn away just to field championship football and basketball teams?

The point being: Since football players and regular students share the same pool of scholarships, and there are always more qualified candidates than there are scholarships; each scholarship that you give to a student, based solely on his athleticism and not his intellect, you have to turn away one more qualified applicant. How many qualified applicants do you turn away, in order to have championship sports teams?

 

[NDRock]

It wouldn't take more scholarships. And that's not what dshans said. He said,



The point being: Since football players and regular students share the same pool of scholarships, and there are always more qualified candidates than there are scholarships; each scholarship that you give to a student, based solely on his athleticism and not his intellect, you have to turn away one more qualified applicant. How many qualified applicants do you turn away, in order to have championship sports teams?

Gotcha, his use of the word championship led me to believe it would take more scholarships to reach that level than our current number. Thanks for the response.

 

[dshans]

Look, my point is that there are a limited number of "slots" available to be a student at Notre Dame. It's not really a scholarship issue. It would be nice if the school were tuition free for any and all, but there's still a limit to the number of seats available at the table.

I'm not saying that there's no added value to athletic skill in creating a well rounded community. I'm not saying that there are football, basketball, hockey, lacrosse, volleyball, etc. players (male and female) that fall short of academic standards. Think of it as a gumbo.

Start with a roux as a base. Add and layer ingredients until you reach your goal – a taste delight. Mirepoix, stock, andouille, shrimp, chicken (maybe duck or pheasant) then add garnish. Serve on rice. White, brown or wild. All three might be nice. Serve with a dark beer or hardy red wine.

But I digress, as often happens.

At what "price" point do you skimp on (or eliminate) celery to favor onions or carrots? When do you replace Uncle John with Cousin Mary on the picnic bench? Belly up to the bar.

I have no clue as to the motivation to keep the total enrollment relatively low. Housing is a different story. When I was a student at ND the school relied on a certain number of students to move off campus so that there was enough dorm space for incoming students. Retaining students in on campus housing has value. It's also a revenue stream.

Much as the football program.

 

[NorthDakota]

If you think ND runs a squeaky clean program, you probably believe in spaghetti monsters - So I probably just typed this response in vain.

I'd guess that most folks on this board are believers in something a little bit bigger than a spaghetti monster. I don't see why you are here.

I don't go to the BYU board and mock them for being a Mormon university with beliefs different from mine.

ND plays by a different set of self imposed rules that a lot of these big dogs don't. That's a fact. Does ND have some kids who get in trouble? Absolutely. You are talking about 18-22 yr old guys who have probably had people look the other way at times because of what they can do on a football field. Notre Dame seems to try to combat that while other schools just seem to try to hope the kid does his part on the football field and hopefully doesn't do anything too stupid.

I go to a school that treats them like players first and students second and trust me, it's unfortunate.

If ND wants to loosen up a bit, that's up to them. Might not be a bad idea but part of the charm of ND and Stanford is the expectation that you will graduate and not have it handed to you.

Rant over. Go Irish.

 

[DonnieNarco]

I don't know why we are talking about changing anything. We have got recruits like Max Redfield, Sheldon Day, Greg Bryant, Jaylon Smith, Steve Elmer, Quenton Nelson, Nyles Morgan, Ishaq Williams, Manti Te'o, Stephon Tuitt, Ben Koyack, Brandon Wimbush, and on and on. These are big time recruits with offers from just about everyone. Ohio State and Oregon are not outrageously outrecruiting us. If they can do it, so can we.

I hate it when people say that Notre Dame will never win again because of the academic standards. Stanford won the Rose Bowl with their academic standards. Oregon is going to win the national championship with worse recruits than ours. This fatalism is just projecting an acceptance of mediocrity onto the program. Notre Dame is a ref not wanting to be the show from being a top 3 team at a point this season. Spare me this "woe is me" crap about academic standards and whatnot.

 

[dshans]

All right. I give. "Uncle."

What the hell is a "Spaghetti Monster?"

Another clue that I'm an old and out-of- touch fart, I s'pose.

 

[kmoose]

Oregon is going to win the national championship with worse recruits than ours.

I don't have too much heartburn with your assertion that recruiting is less of a problem than coaching, at ND. But, you can't just make stuff up to support it. Unless other recruiting sites are drastically different, ND has only outrecruited Oregon two years in the last 5. Since 2014 signing day has not occurred yet, I will go back to 2009 as a starting point. I'm using Rivals for my numbers:

2009 Class Rank: ND 21, ORE 32
2010 Class Rank: ND 14, ORE 13
2011 Class Rank: ND 11, ORE 9
2012 Class Rank: ND 20, ORE 16
2013 Class Rank: ND 3, ORE 22

So only in 2009 and 2013 did ND outrecruit Oregon, but you contend that we have better recruits? The numbers don't support that.

 

[Irish YJ]

I don't have too much heartburn with your assertion that recruiting is less of a problem than coaching, at ND. But, you can't just make stuff up to support it. Unless other recruiting sites are drastically different, ND has only outrecruited Oregon two years in the last 5. Since 2014 signing day has not occurred yet, I will go back to 2009 as a starting point. I'm using Rivals for my numbers:

2009 Class Rank: ND 21, ORE 32
2010 Class Rank: ND 14, ORE 13
2011 Class Rank: ND 11, ORE 9
2012 Class Rank: ND 20, ORE 16
2013 Class Rank: ND 3, ORE 22

So only in 2009 and 2013 did ND outrecruit Oregon, but you contend that we have better recruits? The numbers don't support that.

assuming +/-4 is about even removes 3 of the 5 years. an 11pt and 19pt delta is pretty wide though for the other two.

 

[BGIF]

All right. I give. "Uncle."

What the hell is a "Spaghetti Monster?"

Another clue that I'm an old and out-of- touch fart, I s'pose.

You're not the one out of touch.

It's fans that come here rooting for a sports team like they root for the Cubs, Dodgers, or Knicks. They root for a sports team while the rest of us root for a school team.

Contrary to Drake's trolling about Res Life looking the other way with Floyd. That was not true. Floyd drew a semester suspension from extracurricular activity which is typical. Floyd IMO may have benefited from two situations.

1. Shorty before his infraction Fr Jenkins renamed Res Life and "retired" its former head person. The reorganized body was supposed to be less punitive and more compassionate/rehabilative.

2. While ND coaches have typically waited for the results of Res Life Hearings/Rulings and in those situations many Res Life hearing didn't hear cases until after Spring Ball and imposed a semester suspension to be served the FOLLOWING semester, See Cerasani under Bob Davie. Kelly pre-emptively suspended Floyd from the team for the semester including Spring Ball, required counseling, and community service. When Floyd's case was heard they apparently found him guilty and gave him "time served", that is a semester suspension from extracurricular activites he was already serving as well as counseling for his problem, and community service.

IMO, Kelly availed himself of a less draconian Res Life mission and a new head person attuned to Fr. Jenkins new directive for ALL students.

This wasn't Bobby Bowden having a player run the stadiium stairs (which they do anyway for development) nor sitting out the first half versus Buyout St. Floyd was weighed and measured and served his time. As opposed to drake's sellout, it struck me that that the system worked well in that case and a young man confronted his problem with a sham outside judge being brought in to maintain eligibility to shape a national championship run.

 

[pkt77242]

All right. I give. "Uncle."

What the hell is a "Spaghetti Monster?"

Another clue that I'm an old and out-of- touch fart, I s'pose.

The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BGIF]

assuming +/-4 is about even removes 3 of the 5 years. an 11pt and 19pt delta is pretty wide though for the other two.

How many stars do you add for Phil Knight's personal $$$$ involvement?

How many did you deduct for du Lac, Res Life, an Honor Code, and having to be real students?


And how do you measure a 21 year old, 3 Star, #12 Heisman winning QB vs a 4 Star, #3 redshirt freshman QB in his first start?