The SEC

[Bubba]

In the coming years, ND will be scaling some of its schedule back to be a bit easier, like the various BCS conferences. That will be an interesting change.

With the harassment ND took this year over our schedule, I'd hate to hear the media if we really scale back.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

With the harassment ND took this year over our schedule, I'd hate to hear the media if we really scale back.

They do it anyway...we had the 19th toughest SoS this year...

In previous years we were top10 and they still bagged on us.

 

[nd1]

they are going to fuss about the schedule no matter who ever we play.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

I'll concede that they are really good teams, but none really seperate themselves from the truly elite. Alabama has been crap for years. Last year's team squeeked by on defense. Whether SEC fans like it or not, the "elite" teams are being called out every year for a reason. USC goes out and beats good OOC opponents. tOSU goes out and plays Texas and vice versa. USC, tOSU and Texas are the dominant teams over the last few years. Why? Because they go OOC and BEAT people while SEC teams sit at home and TALK about how good they are.

If the SEC "elite" are so damn dominant why can't they dominate bowl games? They are average at best in bowl games . No more lip service from SEC teams. BEAT people.

You are beating a dead horse my friend. OSU has to schedule good OOC games bacause the BIG 11 blows. Last year Michgan was 7-5 and everyone was screaming they were horrible but his year they are the cream of the crop. No one can have the cake and eat it too. The SEC plays their tough games in conference> what is so hard to understand about that. The rankings are not just assumed either. Their is at least some basis for the preseason rankings. Who did Texas play out of conference bseides OSU? North Texas High, Sam Houston! come on really. The Big 12 Blows, The Big 11 blows with the esception of the 2 good teams, the Pac 10 is a little tougher with cal and USC, but who else? Im sure youll see what we are up against in the SUgar bowl this year. I dont think that ND will go in there and blow out LSU. If they do i'll eat crow.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

I think the term "toughest" is what puts people on different pages. Toughest meaning they have more teams of equal ability? Yes. Toughest meaning their teams are better than everyone elses? No.

exactly. I mean the fact that there are 9 bowl teams in the SEC and all they do is beat each other up. Will FLorida beat OSu, probably not. Will ND beat LSU, i hope so, but it is not going to be pretty.

 

[maison bleu]

I think the term "toughest" is what puts people on different pages. Toughest meaning they have more teams of equal ability? Yes. Toughest meaning their teams are better than everyone elses? No.

What about toughest in terms of sending tons of talent to the NFL year in and year out. To me, that's a relatively objective measure...

 

[jerseyborn1971]

What about toughest in terms of sending tons of talent to the NFL year in and year out. To me, that's a relatively objective measure...

You can go that way too, although FSU & Miami would run through every conference in America based on that. But, it's still a valid point.

 

[jerseyborn1971]

Call PETA because I'll keep beating the horse until the SEC dominates out of conference opponents and wins more than just half of their bowl games.

As far as the rankings go, especially pre-season, they are a joke. Someone posted on this site how the AP and Harris poll guys voted and it was hysterical how off some of them were. 1 had Boise St ranked #2. All others were grossly biased based on region. Combine that with the fact that most college coaches readily admit they don't actually watch the games and that's my reason for saying rankings mean very little when determining the power of a conference.

SEC fans can keep beating there own dead horse, but refusing to play 1 tough out of conference opponent because the SEC is just too tough sounds like fear, not strategy. And the ones that have played those tough games have for the most part had their asses handed to them.

I'll be the first guy to say the SEC was the toughest conference if they roll in these bowl games. I just want to see it not hear it.

 

[ojo_223]

[QUOTE the Pac 10 is a little tougher with cal and USC, but who else? [/QUOTE]

I live in Arizona and have to get hosed into watching the Pac-10 game every Saturday on ABC. It is a good thing that SC actually schedules good teams out of conference, because the Pac-10 SUCKS! I actually had friends telling me this year that I was lucky that the Irish didn't schedule the Scum Devils or UA. All the USC fans here suddenly think that the Oregon St. Beavers are the greatest thing since sliced breat and they got killed by Boise St. BOISE STATE!!!!

 

[kjones]

You are beating a dead horse my friend. OSU has to schedule good OOC games bacause the BIG 11 blows. Last year Michgan was 7-5 and everyone was screaming they were horrible but his year they are the cream of the crop. No one can have the cake and eat it too. The SEC plays their tough games in conference> what is so hard to understand about that. The rankings are not just assumed either. Their is at least some basis for the preseason rankings. Who did Texas play out of conference bseides OSU? North Texas High, Sam Houston! come on really. The Big 12 Blows, The Big 11 blows with the esception of the 2 good teams, the Pac 10 is a little tougher with cal and USC, but who else? Im sure youll see what we are up against in the SUgar bowl this year. I dont think that ND will go in there and blow out LSU. If they do i'll eat crow.

This is an interesting post. The interesting thing is, you make statements as fact that are actually the main purpose of the debate. You state (in defense of the SEC) that the SEC plays their tough games in conference. Obviously you are assuming the SEC is good, otherwise they wouldn't be tough games, but isn't that what the debate was about? You're making the argument moot with points like that. Same for the Pac-10, they all beat each other up this year, how come they aren't like the SEC? Oregon State, UCLA, , etc. how do you "know" that they "blow"? Because they are beating each other in conference? That proves very little. Just as it proves little for the SEC.

Let me try analogy. W-L in conference mean little about the conference as a whole. Now for the analogy. You could say, "Wow, Notre Dame's defense is really good, in practice, they don't give up any yards or big plays and have lots of sacks and blocked passes." Obviously this is not true outside the confines of Notre Dame practice. The same way you could say "Wow, the SEC (or any other conference) is really good, they all keep beating each other till I'm not sure WHO the best team is!" Which similarly proves nothing about the CONFERENCE as a whole until it leaves the confines of itself. If the SEC is really the best conference, they should win most of their bowl games, but we shall see what we shall see.

 

[kjones]

All the USC fans here suddenly think that the Oregon St. Beavers are the greatest thing since sliced breat and they got killed by Boise St. BOISE STATE!!!!

You mean, undefeated, BCS-bowl-bound Boise State? Yeah, they're one of the worst teams around!

 

[Satans Little Helper]

This is an interesting post. The interesting thing is, you make statements as fact that are actually the main purpose of the debate. You state (in defense of the SEC) that the SEC plays their tough games in conference. Obviously you are assuming the SEC is good, otherwise they wouldn't be tough games, but isn't that what the debate was about? You're making the argument moot with points like that. Same for the Pac-10, they all beat each other up this year, how come they aren't like the SEC? Oregon State, UCLA, , etc. how do you "know" that they "blow"? Because they are beating each other in conference? That proves very little. Just as it proves little for the SEC.

Let me try analogy. W-L in conference mean little about the conference as a whole. Now for the analogy. You could say, "Wow, Notre Dame's defense is really good, in practice, they don't give up any yards or big plays and have lots of sacks and blocked passes." Obviously this is not true outside the confines of Notre Dame practice. The same way you could say "Wow, the SEC (or any other conference) is really good, they all keep beating each other till I'm not sure WHO the best team is!" Which similarly proves nothing about the CONFERENCE as a whole until it leaves the confines of itself. If the SEC is really the best conference, they should win most of their bowl games, but we shall see what we shall see.

I have to say that this is a circular argument, which will never end. It all comes down to an opinion really. You can analyze it all you want but eventually assumptions will be made and it will always come down to an opinion. I personnally think the SEC is the toughest conference top to bottom. Toughest meaning most competitive. I can understand your points but it is circular and will always lead you back to your original premise without really answering anything.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

The Big Ten is supposed to be a joke compared to the SEC...I guess we will see how that plays out in January.

Oustside of OSU and UM, the Big 11 is a joke. Not so much as the ACC but.....

 

[Satans Little Helper]

Here are the SEC bowl games:

1) Bama vs OK State OSU
2) SC vs Houston SC
3) Kentucky vs Clemson Clemson
4) Georgia vs VT VT
5) Tennessee vs Penn State UT
(6) Auburn vs Nebraska Toss-Up, but I think Nebraska
7) Arkansas vs Wisconsin Ark
8) LSU vs ND LSU on paper, but the homer in me says ND
9) UF vs tOSU OSU

Out of 9 games, I think they win 4-5.

Does anyone notice how many bowl games there actually playing in the SEC this year? Is there another conference with that many bowl eligible teams? 75% of the conference is in a bowl game.

I agree with most of that however i think UGA and VT will be closer than people think and also Auburn will put the clamp down on NEB. Ofcourse i thought that last yerar about the Wisconsin game.too.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Care to add any substance back up your claim or do we just take your word for it?

Besides the fact that I watch college football?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe it's the rankings of the teams, or the number of players they put in the NFL, or the number of good teams that play in the SEC.

1. Florida
2. LSU
3. Tennessee
4. Auburn
5. Georgia
6. Tennessee
7. Arkansas

That's seven quality teams right there, in one conference. Is there something else that can match that? The Big 10? Michigan, OSU, and Wisconsin?

Big 12? Texas, Nebraska, Oklahoma?

ACC? Ummm...Virginia Tech? FSU (five years ago)? Miami (five years ago)?

Pac 10? USC?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Besides the fact that I watch college football?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe it's the rankings of the teams, or the number of players they put in the NFL, or the number of good teams that play in the SEC.

1. Florida
2. LSU
3. Tennessee
4. Auburn
5. Georgia
6. Tennessee
7. Arkansas

That's seven quality teams right there, in one conference. Is there something else that can match that? The Big 10? Michigan, OSU, and Wisconsin?

Big 12? Texas, Nebraska, Oklahoma?

ACC? Ummm...Virginia Tech? FSU (five years ago)? Miami (five years ago)?

Pac 10? USC?

You listed 6 teams...you duplicated Tennessee.

I agree that most of these teams are quality, but I see a lot of parity. Not only that, I don't see good out of conference wins.

Florida played crap teams OOC
Georgia played crap teams OOC
Aubrun played crap teams OOC
LSU played crap teams OOC

The two who played a decent OOC team had mixed results:
Arkansas got anal raped by USC
Tennessee pounded Cal

So I see a conference with a lot of parity, but nothing to tell me they are actually better than other conferences.

 

[Katzenboyer]

You listed 6 teams...you duplicated Tennessee.

I agree that most of these teams are quality, but I see a lot of parity. Not only that, I don't see good out of conference wins.

Florida played crap teams OOC
Georgia played crap teams OOC
Aubrun played crap teams OOC
LSU played crap teams OOC

The two who played a decent OOC team had mixed results:
Arkansas got anal raped by USC
Tennessee pounded Cal

So I see a conference with a lot of parity, but nothing to tell me they are actually better than other conferences.

My bad about duplicating Tennessee. You could add Alabama or USC at the bottom of that list, but I wouldn't consider them quality.

Look, the out of conference schedule just holds no water for me. Yes, they might have played soft schedules outside of the SEC, but the SEC is a MONSTER, and that schedule is tough.

Even in a down year for Georgia, they beat some pretty good teams.

It just seems to me that the people who are discrediting the SEC by looking at their out of conference schedule refuse to accept the fact that the in-conference schedule for the SEC is brutal.

It's like trying to swat a fly with a sword when there's a dragon sleeping in the corner.

 

[kjones]

I have to say that this is a circular argument, which will never end. It all comes down to an opinion really. You can analyze it all you want but eventually assumptions will be made and it will always come down to an opinion. I personnally think the SEC is the toughest conference top to bottom. Toughest meaning most competitive. I can understand your points but it is circular and will always lead you back to your original premise without really answering anything.

Actually, no, my argument was not circular, in that it based it's conclusions on premises which were themselves conclusions. My argument was straight forward with no inherent assumptions at all. It was simply stating that you can't make comparisons outside a system from results inside a system. Your argument; however, WAS circular, and that was MY point. In the end, it does come down to opinion, and you are welcome to yours, but to state is as proof as you did earlier, is false. As for really answering anything, if we could do that, where would the fun of it be?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Yes, they might have played soft schedules outside of the SEC, but the SEC is a MONSTER, and that schedule is tough.

Based on what???

That's what I am saying. The SEC is a self-fulfilling propehcy. First people assume they are the best, then they beat EACH OTHER up. There is a lot of parity in the conference. They don't play anyone out of conference of any worth.

Then they declare they are the best and that the schedule is brutal.

The Big East is claiming that this year too...I don't agree with them either.

The SEC simply has NOT proven it is a tough conference, only that it has a lot of parity.

The #2 team in the SEC got taken to the woodshed when it played USC. What USC did to Arkansas is illegal in most southern states.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Based on what???

That's what I am saying. The SEC is a self-fulfilling propehcy. First people assume they are the best, then they beat EACH OTHER up. There is a lot of parity in the conference. They don't play anyone out of conference of any worth.

Then they declare they are the best and that the schedule is brutal.

The Big East is claiming that this year too...I don't agree with them either.

The SEC simply has NOT proven it is a tough conference, only that it has a lot of parity.

The #2 team in the SEC got taken to the woodshed when it played USC. What USC did to Arkansas is illegal in most southern states.

Again -- selective reasoning.

First of all, McFadden wasn't healthy for that game. Second, Arkansas's team didn't hit its stride til the Auburn game.

By your reasoning, Oregon State is a better team than USC because they beat them in Cornwallis. Is that the case?

The SEC is the best not because they "say" they are the best -- but because they have the biggest number of ranked (or unranked, but still solid) teams in the country.

I can think of 3 cases in the SEC this year in which top 10 teams played each other (at the time) -- Auburn v. LSU, LSU v. Florida, and Arkansas v. Florida. I may be missing some games, but those are the ones I can think of.

In those cases, a top 10 team was going to lose, and an SEC team was going to lose -- there was no way to escape it. Does this mean that they are bad teams? No, they just have to play LOTS of quality opponents.

The SEC, from top to bottom, has the most quality than any other conference. Applaud tOSU for playing a tough out of conference game against Texas, but the Big 10 isn't the same conference as the SEC is.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Based on what???

This:

#2 Florida
#4 LSU
#10 Auburn
#12 Arkansas
#17 Tennessee

That's a bunch of good teams, all in one conference.

 

[FleaFlicker]

Based on what???

That's what I am saying. The SEC is a self-fulfilling propehcy. First people assume they are the best, then they beat EACH OTHER up. There is a lot of parity in the conference. They don't play anyone out of conference of any worth.

Then they declare they are the best and that the schedule is brutal.

The Big East is claiming that this year too...I don't agree with them either.

The SEC simply has NOT proven it is a tough conference, only that it has a lot of parity.

The #2 team in the SEC got taken to the woodshed when it played USC. What USC did to Arkansas is illegal in most southern states.

A perfect example of what you guys are talking about... which I agree with btw... Is imagine the Big 10 if Penn State beats Michigan and Ohio State this year.

I know... they didn't.

But if that did happen, You now have Wisconsin with one loss, OSU, with one loss, Michigan with two losses, and Penn State with 2 losses.

I bet each of those 4 teams is in or right around the top 10.

Does that make OSU's SOS better? Yes, would people say that the Big 10 was a pretty strong conference? Yes. What's the difference?

Now let's use the inverse analogy for the SEC. If you take 10 horrible teams, that play in the same conference. Schedule, their OOC games as cupcakes, and then have them play each other, you will come out with a few teams that have one or two losses.

Do people think the SEC is the strongest because they have the best OOC wins? My guess is no. I would think the Big Ten of Pac 10 had those this year. So what are they basing it on? Speed? Defense? God knows there isn't much offense in that league.

USC 50, Arkansas... not enough. And that team beat planty of "great" teams in teh SEC.

It's about hype this year. They are a conference like any other conference, they have strong teams.

The onyl difference between them and other conferences is that they are less spread out in terms of strength. i.e. the Penn State argument from above. If Ohio State and Michigan play Penn State again, and have horrible games, and Penn State plays no different, then that conference looks stronger by comparison. SImply because of the W/L ratio.

Um, hello, the final score to the Auburn Vs. LSU game was 7 to 3. Doesn't sound like a powerhouse match-up to me. It sounds like two teams played horrible offense, and good defense.

The only difference between that game and the Miami/FSU game this year was that FSU and Miami went on to lose their other easy games. But I watched that LSU/Auburn game and it was ugly as hell.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

This:

#2 Florida
#4 LSU
#10 Auburn
#12 Arkansas
#17 Tennessee

That's a bunch of good teams, all in one conference.

And they got those rankings by beating WHO? (each other is the answer)

Look man, I think LSU is all that and a bag of chips...no shit.

BUT, the same can be said of many conferences.

Again, I point you to the Miami-FSU game where the announcers could not say enough good things about how tough the two teams were. Then come to find out that they both lick balls.

I think the Big East is a joke...LatteDatte disagrees. But when you look at Louisville, Rutgers, and WVU you see 3 teams that have the same track record as the top SEC teams. So tell me, why are they worse? When clearly their only losses came in conference.

The BigEast.....
A BRUTAL SCHEDULE!!!
A BRUTAL CONFERENCE!!!
TOUGH TEAMS!!!

Oh, spare me...

 

[johnchampion]

I look at the bowl schedule and the Big East teams are all favored by Vegas to win their games.
I'd take the Pac 10 top to bottom as the best conference in America. The curve is catching the Trojans.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I look at the bowl schedule and the Big East teams are all favored by Vegas to win their games.
I'd take the Pac 10 top to bottom as the best conference in America. The curve is catching the Trojans.

The Pac-10 as the best?

Ummm...have you considered not smoking dope?



Seriously man, they have potential, but once you get below the 2nd or 3rd team, they kinda blow.

 

[Katzenboyer]

About the FSU/UM rivalry -- those teams got their "balls licked" because of the history of those two teams and the games they've played, and their history period. Very few teams have been as successful as those two in the past 20 years. Say what you want about the kids that go there, but they've been very successful programs.

No one expected those two teams to be as bad as they were this year. I really don't get your point -- yes, they were bad, and yes they were two conference teams beating each other up -- but what does that have to do with anything? It was the first game of the season -- no one knew how those teams were going to perform throughout the year. Hindsight, gentleman.

As for the Arkansas/USC argument, I just don't buy it. First, it was the first game of the season. Second, and again with hindsight, not much was expected out of Arkansas this year -- everyone expected a blowout, actually. Arkansas cannot be considered the "class" of their conference, which USC is, and now that Arkansas had a good season, you people are jumping up and down and saying "see! the SEC stinks cause USC killed the number two team in the SEC!"

If USC had laid a beating on Florida, or LSU then maybe I'd buy it. But they didn't. LSU beat Arkansas -- to me, they're the second best team in the SEC. If Florida lost to USC bigtime, but then came back and won the rest of their games, I'd see where you're coming from.

And I still find it funny that you point to a weak OOC schedule to base your entire point. And then you say "hey -- the SEC hasn't won any major blow games, so they must stink!" Well, keep in mind that most of the Bowls the SEC major teams play in are on, around, or close to New Years, and so they'd be playing some very good teams.

If UM loses in the Rose Bowl, are they a weak team because they lost a bowl game? No, seeing as USC is a very solid team. Heaven fobid the Big 10 loses BOTH it's BCS bowls -- you guys might be calling for it to be disbanded.

 

[johnchampion]

The Pac-10 as the best?

Ummm...have you considered not smoking dope?



Seriously man, they have potential, but once you get below the 2nd or 3rd team, they kinda blow.

Ummm....have you considered the research?
You just described the Big Ten, and Wisconsin's out of conference schedule rivals an SEC one.
A lot of those Pac 10 teams bumped each other off...6 of them are going to bowls.

 

[jerseyborn1971]

Just so I have this right....

The SEC doesn't have to win bowl games AND

They don't have to beat strong OOC teams BUT

They still get classified as the most DOMINANT conference?

BTW, no one said they stink. People just said they aren't the DOMINANT conference they are made out to be.

 

[Satans Little Helper]

Actually, no, my argument was not circular, in that it based it's conclusions on premises which were themselves conclusions. My argument was straight forward with no inherent assumptions at all. It was simply stating that you can't make comparisons outside a system from results inside a system. Your argument; however, WAS circular, and that was MY point. In the end, it does come down to opinion, and you are welcome to yours, but to state is as proof as you did earlier, is false. As for really answering anything, if we could do that, where would the fun of it be?

I see what you are saying. I never was good at arguing, i usually just bust my pint over someone's noggin. Just so you know, I am a huge SEC homer and it is really etched into my brain. FWIW.

 

[johnchampion]

I don't find any one of them to be that dominant.
The SEC gets too much credit, the Big 12 and Big East not enough.
The Big Ten had two teams survive to the last game of the year undefeated...which doesn't say much for the other 9 teams.
Wait, 10 -2 = 9?

Only in college football.