Sexual Assault and Possible Misconceptions

[JTLA]

Sorry to digress, but this issue always gets my ire up.

As a culture we have moved so far into the "boogeymen are out there" line of thinking that we have scared our young people and made up insane laws about consent (check out California's "yes means yes" if you don't believe me). Sex is not some big bad awful scary thing and it's happening everywhere and it always has - and thank God for that - we wouldn't be around much longer with out it!

NOW that being said. Assault, Rape, and Harassment are different matters all together. If someone is out there deliberately committing violent crimes, they need to be locked up. What bothers me is that 99% of the cases we hear about are alcohol fueled, he-said-she-said, typical teenage sexual activity. But we've scared young women to the point of lunacy. One stat people like to throw around is 1 in 4 women are victims of sexual assault. Assuming there isn't 1 guy running around campus doing an awful lot of assaulting, we're in turn saying that 1 in 4 young men should be locked up for felonious sexual assault. A crime which is punishable by up to four years in prison and a lifetime of punishment as a registered sex offender. Does anyone really believe that's what's going on? Anyone looking closely at Shembo or Winston or Owen Labrie cases can see these were not felonious actions. These cases are not the outliers, these are what 99% of these stories are made up of.

I have no idea what happened at ND this week, but everyone has got to stop the quick to judge, boys are evil campaigns. IMHO there are usually racial, religious, parental, and shame related factors which are much larger contributors to these incidents.

Don't even get me started about journalists and social scientists making up stories and facts to drive this issue.

 

[pkt77242]

Sorry to digress, but this issue always gets my ire up.

As a culture we have moved so far into the "boogeymen are out there" line of thinking that we have scared our young people and made up insane laws about consent (check out California's "yes means yes" if you don't believe me). Sex is not some big bad awful scary thing and it's happening everywhere and it always has - and thank God for that - we wouldn't be around much longer with out it!

NOW that being said. Assault, Rape, and Harassment are different matters all together. If someone is out there deliberately committing violent crimes, they need to be locked up. What bothers me is that 99% of the cases we hear about are alcohol fueled, he-said-she-said, typical teenage sexual activity. But we've scared young women to the point of lunacy. One stat people like to throw around is 1 in 4 women are victims of sexual assault. Assuming there isn't 1 guy running around campus doing an awful lot of assaulting, we're in turn saying that 1 in 4 young men should be locked up for felonious sexual assault. A crime which is punishable by up to four years in prison and a lifetime of punishment as a registered sex offender. Does anyone really believe that's what's going on? Anyone looking closely at Shembo or Winston or Owen Labrie cases can see these were not felonious actions. These cases are not the outliers, these are what 99% of these stories are made up of.

I have no idea what happened at ND this week, but everyone has got to stop the quick to judge, boys are evil campaigns. IMHO there are usually racial, religious, parental, and shame related factors which are much larger contributors to these incidents.

Don't even get me started about journalists and social scientists making up stories and facts to drive this issue.

 

[Irish YJ]

 

[wizards8507]

Um, he's right. When I was a freshman at Notre Dame, we had to go to this sexual assault awareness thing during orientation. The girl giving the presentation was a victim and her assaulter was serving something like 15 years. Then she goes off script and admits, on stage in front of the entire Notre Dame class of 2011, that SHE HAD SAID YES. And that guy is serving time IN PRISON and will forever be a sex offender in the eyes of the State and society.

There are states where consensual sex between equally intoxicated parties is automatically felony rape, and that ain't right. Whoever files charges first gets to be the victim.

 

[pkt77242]

Um, he's right. When I was a freshman at Notre Dame, we had to go to this sexual assault awareness thing during orientation. The girl giving the presentation was a victim and her assaulter was serving something like 15 years. Then she goes off script and admits, on stage in front of the entire Notre Dame class of 2011, that SHE HAD SAID YES. And that guy is serving time IN PRISON and will forever be a sex offender in the eyes of the State and society.

There are states where consensual sex between equally intoxicated parties is automatically felony rape, and that ain't right. Whoever files charges first gets to be the victim.

Nice anecdotal evidence but how does that one story have anything to do with the larger population? Care to impart any actual studies on it, because sexual assault, sexual harassment, rape, etc. are pretty heavily studied. Also they tend to be under reported on campus, just look at what happened at Baylor and their wonderful "investigation".

ETA: Not saying that some cases aren't fabrications, there will always be some outliers.

 

[IrishLax]

Nothing he said was wrong. It has been repeatedly proven that the 1 in 5 number is complete and utter BS. Misleading propaganda at its finest to talk about an "epidemic" that DOES NOT exist.

In truth, women in college are FAR less likely to be raped than their peers of the same age that aren't in college.

 

[wizards8507]

Nice anecdotal evidence but how does that one story have anything to do with the larger population? Care to impart any actual studies on it, because sexual assault, sexual harassment, rape, etc. are pretty heavily studied. Also they tend to be under reported on campus, just look at what happened at Baylor and their wonderful "investigation".

ETA: Not saying that some cases aren't fabrications, there will always be some outliers.

My issue is not with the one example, but with the system's built-in prejudices that make such convictions possible.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[pkt77242]

Nothing he said was wrong. It has been repeatedly proven that the 1 in 5 number is complete and utter BS. Misleading propaganda at its finest to talk about an "epidemic" that DOES NOT exist.

In truth, women in college are FAR less likely to be raped than their peers of the same age that aren't in college.

Um, the numbers that I have seen show that 1 in 5 women have been sexually assaulted but that is over their lifetime, not just in college.

Also where has it been proven? Does it take into account that many sexual assaults are never reported?

 

[wizards8507]

Um, the numbers that I have seen show that 1 in 5 women have been sexually assaulted but that is over their lifetime, not just in college.

Also where has it been proven? Does it take into account that many sexual assaults are never reported?

"[T]he study often cited as the origin of the "one in five" factoid is an online survey conducted under a grant from the Justice Department. Surveyors employed such a broad definition that "'forced kissing" and even "attempted forced kissing" qualified as sexual assault.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students."

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs...istics-dont-back-up-claims-about-rape-culture

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[IrishLax]

Um, the numbers that I have seen show that 1 in 5 women have been sexually assaulted but that is over their lifetime, not just in college.

Also where has it been proven? Does it take into account that many sexual assaults are never reported?

See wizards post. Also, this is always a fun read when dealing with the Jezebel/SJW crowd: Sexual Assault, Wage Gap, and More Feminist Myths that Will Not Die

Item number five touches on the "rape culture" myth... truth is, women in the 18-25 demographic that aren't in college have a much higher incident rate than those that are.

 

[pkt77242]

"[T]he study often cited as the origin of the "one in five" factoid is an online survey conducted under a grant from the Justice Department. Surveyors employed such a broad definition that "'forced kissing" and even "attempted forced kissing" qualified as sexual assault.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students."

Statistics Don't Back Up Claims About 'Rape Culture' - US News

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

Here is a good article on it. It goes over the fact from a variety of studies (not just one). It seems that the number is lower then 1 in 5 for college students (though at least 1 study did show that number for two colleges).

One in five women in college sexually assaulted: an update on this statistic - The Washington Post

Also I am saying that 1 in 5 women during their lifetime will be sexually assaulted (or attempted to be sexually assaulted).

I stand by the 1 in 5 women were sexually assaulted sometime during their life (this study shows 18.3% close enough for me).
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

 

[pkt77242]

See wizards post. Also, this is always a fun read when dealing with the Jezebel/SJW crowd: Sexual Assault, Wage Gap, and More Feminist Myths that Will Not Die

Item number five touches on the "rape culture" myth... truth is, women in the 18-25 demographic that aren't in college have a much higher incident rate than those that are.

I don't disagree with that point. My point is that 1 in 5 women in their lifetime gets sexually assaulted. That is high enough to say that we have a problem. It isn't just on campus or at college, it is a societal problem.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't disagree with that point. My point is that 1 in 5 women in their lifetime gets sexually assaulted. That is high enough to say that we have a problem. It isn't just on campus or at college, it is a societal problem.

It's not though. Even by that statistic, there are offenses included in "sexual assault" that no reasonable person would consider such.

 

[pkt77242]

It's not though. Even by that statistic, there are offenses included in "sexual assault" that no reasonable person would consider such.

If you read the CDC link, they use the word rape. I just changed it to sexual assault.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_executive_summary-a.pdf

18.3% of women report being raped sometime during their life. That is high. The survey included over 9,000 women.

 

[wizards8507]

If you read the CDC link, they use the word rape. I just changed it to sexual assault.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_executive_summary-a.pdf

18.3% of women report being raped sometime during their life. That is high. The survey included over 9,000 women.

I read it.

"Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration."

Alcohol facilitated penetration. Meaning drunk sex. I'm sorry, drunk sex isn't rape and acting like it is reveals an agenda designed to show an epidemic where there isn't one. My wife and I have had sex when intoxicated. By that horseshit survey, I raped her (and she raped me for that matter) via "alcohol facilitated completed penetration." Fuck that.

 

[sfk324]

I read it.

"Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration."

Alcohol facilitated penetration. Meaning drunk sex. I'm sorry, drunk sex isn't rape and acting like it is reveals an agenda designed to show an epidemic where there isn't one. My wife and I have had sex when intoxicated. By that horseshit survey, I raped her (and she raped me for that matter) via "alcohol facilitated completed penetration." Fuck that.

You may have read it, but your comprehension needs work, that's not what that means.

 

[pkt77242]

I read it.

"Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration."

Alcohol facilitated penetration. Meaning drunk sex. I'm sorry, drunk sex isn't rape and acting like it is reveals an agenda designed to show an epidemic where there isn't one. My wife and I have had sex when intoxicated. By that horseshit survey, I raped her (and she raped me for that matter) via "alcohol facilitated completed penetration." Fuck that.

So the only reason your wife had sex with you is because you got her drunk? I think you are misunderstanding it.

Rape is defined as any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal, oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types, completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.

The key is so drunk, high, drugged or passed out and so they were unable to consent.

Here is the actual CDC definition, the previous one is pulled from CSU

Completed or attempted alcohol or drug-facilitated penetration of a victim ─ includes completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal insertion when the victim was unable to consent because he or she was too intoxicated (e.g., incapacitation, lack of consciousness, or lack of awareness) through voluntary or involuntary use of alcohol or drugs.

Here is the most recent survey.
Prevalence and Characteristics of Sexual Violence, Stalking, and Intimate Partner Violence Victimization — National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, United States, 2011

19.3% said they had been raped (including your favorite alcohol or drug facilitated)
43.9% experienced some form of sexual violence.

Even if you wanted to throw out half of those, you are still looking at 10% and 20%. That is crazy.

 

[wizards8507]

You may have read it, but your comprehension needs work, that's not what that means.

Wrong. That's exactly what it means. In many states, an intoxicated individual cannot legally give consent, even if their sexual partner is equally or more intoxicated. In those states, drunk sex is rape, period.

 

[IrishInFl]

Wrong. That's exactly what it means. In many states, an intoxicated individual cannot legally give consent, even if their sexual partner is equally or more intoxicated. In those states, drunk sex is rape, period.

Colorado immediately comes to mind. Even if both people are intoxicated and have consented, it is still rape for the person that initiated it.

Consent - Women and Gender Advocacy Center

 

[Irish YJ]

Colorado immediately comes to mind. Even if both people are intoxicated and have consented, it is still rape for the person that initiated it.

Consent - Women and Gender Advocacy Center

does that include stoned sex. lot's of criminal activity happening out at red rocks last time I was out there.....

 

[IrishInFl]

does that include stoned sex. lot's of criminal activity happening out at red rocks last time I was out there.....

Sure does, in Colorado at least.

 

[NDRock]

Wrong. That's exactly what it means. In many states, an intoxicated individual cannot legally give consent, even if their sexual partner is equally or more intoxicated. In those states, drunk sex is rape, period.

We get a class every two years on domestic violence. The woman teaching says the same thing about the law in Tennessee. If a woman is intoxicated she is legally unable to give consent. I never could get what the blood alcohol level is that consideres them intoxicated. Same as driving?

 

[wizards8507]

We get a class every two years on domestic violence. The woman teaching says the same thing about the law in Tennessee. If a woman is intoxicated she is legally unable to give consent. I never could get what the blood alcohol level is that consideres them intoxicated. Same as driving?

Only females? Sounds like an equal protection violation. Most states OPERATE that way, for sure, but I'm surprised it's that explicit.

 

[edgesofsanity]

We get a class every two years on domestic violence. The woman teaching says the same thing about the law in Tennessee. If a woman is intoxicated she is legally unable to give consent. I never could get what the blood alcohol level is that consideres them intoxicated. Same as driving?

I doubt there's a legal precedent for a number. That being said, in order to be considered medically competent to make healthcare decisions the legal limit is often used to justify competency.

 

[KPENN]

I'm kind of curious, with the being drunk and not being able to give consent thing, how exactly is the law written? Cause I just got to thinking, in a way, they hold you fully responsible for driving a car drunk, but don't sexually. Am i way off on my thinking here?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

You're right, I'll stop. Mods, apologies.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

Great. Kiss-ass! Apologize to the mods, but what about old brokedicks like me? We have to wade through your twaddle to get a little info on football? What is fair about that? I assume you are going to follow through.

Only females? Sounds like an equal protection violation. Most states OPERATE that way, for sure, but I'm surprised it's that explicit.

Or maybe not!

 

[GoIrish41]

"[T]he study often cited as the origin of the "one in five" factoid is an online survey conducted under a grant from the Justice Department. Surveyors employed such a broad definition that "'forced kissing" and even "attempted forced kissing" qualified as sexual assault.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics' "Violent Victimization of College Students" report tells a different and more plausible story about campus culture. During the years surveyed, 1995-2002, the DOJ found that there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year. Across the nation's four million female college students, that comes to about one victim in forty students."

Statistics Don't Back Up Claims About 'Rape Culture' - US News

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

Forced kissing and attempted forced kissing is sexual assault. Not rape -- but certainly sexual assault. I am not sure that is even debatable.

 

[IrishLax]

Forced kissing and attempted forced kissing is sexual assault. Not rape -- but certainly sexual assault. I am not sure that is even debatable.

Do you think someone who is convicted of sexual assault should go on a sex offender list?

 

[gkIrish]

Do you think someone who is convicted of sexual assault should go on a sex offender list?

If I was president one of the first things I would try and accomplish is completely revamp the sex offender list laws and do so retroactively

 

[wizards8507]

Forced kissing and attempted forced kissing is sexual assault. Not rape -- but certainly sexual assault. I am not sure that is even debatable.

Seriously? You try to kiss a girl at a party and she pushes you away and you think that puts you in the same category as someone who violently rapes a child?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.