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woolybug25

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There is polling data to support that roughly ~10% of Native Americans find the name offensive. Coupled with recent polling data of the general populous, it shows that white people are far more offended on the whole about an NFL franchise being named the Redskins than Native Americans are. Go figure.

So Pat isn't talking out of his @ss on this occasion. At the same time, that polling data he is referring to was flawed. And you can find really flawed polling data to support that most Native Americans are offended, too. It's more of a complex issue than people on the extremes want to admit.

Depends on what polling you use. In 2001, Indian Country Today conducted a poll of an undisclosed number of readers reporting that "81 percent of respondents indicated use of American Indian names, symbols and mascots are predominantly offensive and deeply disparaging to Native Americans."

The 10% poll done by SI is widely disputed by the native american community. Here is an example:

The possible flaw in random and anonymous polls of Native American's opinion is that they must rely upon self-identification to select the target group. In an editorial in the Bloomington Herald Times, Steve Russell (an enrolled Cherokee citizen and associate professor of criminal justice at Indiana University), states that both SI and Annenberg's samples of "self-identified Native Americans... includes plenty of people who have nothing to do with Indians".[98] The problem of individuals claiming to be Native American when they are not is well known in academic research, and is a particular problem when non-natives claim Indian identity specifically to gain authority in the debate over sports mascots.

The other poll by Associate Press that stated that 80% of people weren't offended also had a significant flaw.
The Associated Press reported a telephone survey conducted by GfK Roper Public Affairs & Corporate Communications in April, 2013 that 4 out of 5 Americans would keep the Redskins name while only 11% would change it. However, only 2 of the 1,004 persons interviewed identified themselves as Native American.[

In 2009, when the trademark of "Redskin" was removed (later overturned) it was supported by 500 Native groups, hundreds of tribes, and tens of thousands of signatures. Two-thirds of the federally recognized tribes. That sure doesn't sound like 10% of the native american population to me.
 
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Cackalacky

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fail.
 

IrishLax

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Depends on what polling you use. In 2001, Indian Country Today conducted a poll of an undisclosed number of readers reporting that "81 percent of respondents indicated use of American Indian names, symbols and mascots are predominantly offensive and deeply disparaging to Native Americans."

The 10% poll done by SI is widely disputed by the native american community. Here is an example:



The other poll by Associate Press that stated that 80% of people weren't offended also had a significant flaw.


In 2009, when the trademark of "Redskin" was removed (later overturned) it was supported by 500 Native groups, hundreds of tribes, and tens of thousands of signatures. Two-thirds of the federally recognized tribes. That sure doesn't sound like 10% of the native american population to me.

Yeah, like I said every single one of those polls is flawed. You can find data both ways, but he's citing the Anneberg study correctly is all I was saying. That one had flaws with methodology... namely that people self-identified as Native American over the phone (so hypothetically they could be a Martian, etc.) and the question was not phrased to elicit a true binary response.

Can you link me the info on the 500 Native groups, hundreds of tribes, 2/3 of federally recognized tribes, etc.? At the end of the day, tens of thousands of signatures would be somewhere between 1.8% and .04% of the Native American population of the United States (or 3.4% and .07% of full-blooded single-race Native Americans) assuming every single signature came from a Native American.
 

IrishLax

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Yeah, like I mentioned, most Native Americans I've talked to found Chief Wahoo way more offensive than the name Redskins. Which I guess is understandable, considering that it's basically a caricature of their race. Kinda f*cked up when you really start breaking it down.

Like if Notre Dame used a caricature of an Irishman as a mascot most Irish people would find it pretty messed up depending on which direction it went... or like the pictures you provided with other races substituted.

The whole concept of being "offended" in and of itself is just a very personal and subjective matter to each individual.
 

ACamp1900

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Yeah, like I mentioned, most Native Americans I've talked to found Chief Wahoo way more offensive than the name Redskins. Which I guess is understandable, considering that it's basically a caricature of their race. Kinda f*cked up when you really start breaking it down.

Like if Notre Dame used a caricature of an Irishman as a mascot most Irish people would find it pretty messed up depending on which direction it went... or like the pictures you provided with other races substituted.

The whole concept of being "offended" in and of itself is just a very personal and subjective matter to each individual.

Don't disagree with any of this... but, doesn't ND use a caricature of an Irishman???
 
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Cackalacky

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Yeah, like I mentioned, most Native Americans I've talked to found Chief Wahoo way more offensive than the name Redskins. Which I guess is understandable, considering that it's basically a caricature of their race. Kinda f*cked up when you really start breaking it down.

Like if Notre Dame used a caricature of an Irishman as a mascot most Irish people would find it pretty messed up depending on which direction it went... or like the pictures you provided with other races substituted.

The whole concept of being "offended" in and of itself is just a very personal and subjective matter to each individual.
I agree to a point. The Irish culture was not destroyed here but has adapted (regardless of periods of intense racism). Native Americans were moved off their land into infamous forts, fed rotten food, given blankets purposefully laced with diseases, or outright killed because they were savages and not civilized. Now their population is decimated, only a portion of the extant tribes are actually recognized and are doing what they can to revitalize their individual cultures, and find it offensive that now Capitalists are making money off the bloody history which "Americans" tend to not want to remember. So yeah they can be offended and attempt to seek redress.
 
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Cackalacky

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Don't disagree with any of this... but, doesn't ND use a caricature of an Irishman???

I don't know if a leprechaun classifies as a Irishmen Caricature. Now if this was our mascot...possibly offensive
know.JPG
 

IrishLax

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I don't know if a leprechaun classifies as a Irishmen Caricature. Now if this was our mascot...possibly offensive
know.JPG

This is exactly what I was getting at. This would rub a lot of people the wrong way. Or some caricature of a burly fellow with a potato in one hand and whiskey in the other. As would any of the other racial caricatures Cackalacky posted. As does the current Chief Wahoo to most Native Americans I've talked to.

When you break it down, it's pretty messed up.
 
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Cackalacky

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This is exactly what I was getting at. This would rub a lot of people the wrong way. Or some caricature of a burly fellow with a potato in one hand and whiskey in the other. As would any of the other racial caricatures Cackalacky posted. As does the current Chief Wahoo to most Native Americans I've talked to.

When you break it down, it's pretty messed up.

I am going to really blow irishpats mind now:

Mardi Gras Indians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

ACamp1900

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The lep logo plays off at least a couple of stereotypes… it’s definitely a cultural caricature...
 
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Cackalacky

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The lep logo plays off at least a couple of stereotypes… it’s definitely a cultural caricature...

The most generally accepted explanation is that the press coined the nickname as a characterization of Notre Dame athletic teams, their never-say-die fighting spirit and the Irish qualities of grit, determination and tenacity. The term likely began as an abusive expression tauntingly directed toward the athletes from the small, private, Catholic institution. Notre Dame alumnus Francis Wallace popularized it in his New York Daily News columns in the 1920s.
Not surprisingly, the press and a derogatory POV are involved....

edit- I think the leprechaun was not a logo until the 60s. maybe dshans can clarify.
 
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ACamp1900

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Not surprisingly, the press and a derogatory POV are involved....

I have a bit of Irish in me from way back apparently (Same with Native American/ Pawnee), but honestly not enough to speak on it... I'm Scottish American for the most part... but a good buddy from college is Full Irish American and he has said a number of times he doesn't care for the logo for stereotypical reasons... and is insulted by it at times… He doesn't take it overboard because as he has stated, he "has so many other, more important, things to get worked up about"

All in all I tend to see his stance more than any other on issues like this... that's just me.

I still like the Washington Warriors though.
 
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Cackalacky

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I have a bit of Irish in me from way back apparently (Same with Native American/ Pawnee), but honestly not enough to speak on it... I'm Scottish American for the most part... but a good buddy from college is Full Irish American and he has said a number of times he doesn't care for the logo for stereotypical reasons... and is insulted by it at times… He doesn't take it overboard because as he has stated, he "has so many other, more important, things to get worked up about"

All in all I tend to see his stance more than any other on issues like this... that's just me.

I still like the Washington Warriors though.

Yes. Me too. Far too many other things to worry about for me. But for Snyder it is a reality he will have with (probably).
 

Ndaccountant

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I have a bit of Irish in me from way back apparently (Same with Native American/ Pawnee), but honestly not enough to speak on it... I'm Scottish American for the most part... but a good buddy from college is Full Irish American and he has said a number of times he doesn't care for the logo for stereotypical reasons... and is insulted by it at times… He doesn't take it overboard because as he has stated, he "has so many other, more important, things to get worked up about"

All in all I tend to see his stance more than any other on issues like this... that's just me.

I still like the Washington Warriors though.

wasn't Marquette the warriors but got pressured to change it?
 

IrishLax

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wasn't Marquette the warriors but got pressured to change it?

Yup. Reinforcing the point that hypothetically any name can "offend" a person, and it's all subjective. There is no black and white line, and you just have to use your best judgement.

Ultimately, the Redskins will end up changing their name and that will be that. Whether that is the "right" move I think is a complex question. I see reasons on both sides.
 

Irish Houstonian

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Just from a business perspective, it almost always makes the most $$$ to offend as few people as possible, even if it means changing your ways. The # of people not watching/attending because of the offensiveness almost always outnumber the # of people who will quit watching/attending if you change your ways.
 

BobD

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Changing names seems like a money making proposition. Fans will need new everything after they're done being p!ssed.
 

irishpat183

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I seems like changing the name is a good idea if Native Americans are actually offended by it, and the fans don't mind. But it seems like the only people who care are white liberals. What's offensive is being 1-3.

To be fair the extant native american population is only about 10% of its size prior to european arrivals.

I agree...We suck.



Cackalacky- Then we need to kill all whitey and give the land back. You know, because its GOTTA BE OFFENSIVE to watch us walk around on land that we don't really own...no?
 

irishpat183

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Says Chris Chase, the biggest joke of a "sports writer" i've ever read.

Seriously, the dude was laughed off of Yahoo sports. He sucks. At least dig up a respectable writer.


Again...Dan Snyder will not change it. Nor should he. People need to pull their heads outta their asses and stop being offended by things that: A. Don't concern their race or B. Arent offensive to the race that they claim is offended.

HAIL TO THE REDSKINS. THE BIGGEST BADDEST REDDEST ****ING REDSKINS!
 

irishpat183

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Changing names seems like a money making proposition. Fans will need new everything after they're done being p!ssed.

Now, I actually see that point.


But until fans stop showing up and watching them on TV, and Natives start shooting fire arrows from horseback at FedEx field...the name aint changing.
 
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Cackalacky

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Cackalacky- Then we need to kill all whitey and give the land back. You know, because its GOTTA BE OFFENSIVE to watch us walk around on land that we don't really own...no?

LOL. Cause that's exactly what the point is not.
 

woolybug25

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Pat... You might be the most ignorant, obtrusive person I have ever encountered.

A truly horrible human being.
 

ACamp1900

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Cack isn't that bad... but if you can't stomach him to that level, just put him on ignore...
 
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