Post Game Observations (Florida State '14)

[GUknights75]

Watch the replay, the referee says "#7".

Like you have never heard the refs make a mistake on the number of the player that was penalized. My point is, regardless of who was called for it, both were unjustified.

 

[philipm31]

Personally, nobody in the South will respect ND unless we just start hammering teams from the South with regularity, instead of losing to them with regularity.

That is just a fact. And something that I think ND can and will do.

Losing to a Southern team, from the ACC or SEC, is still a loss and another reason why fans from that region will say that ND is "overrated", "so and so was not that good, that is why ND was able to stay with them", etc.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

It was not a reply to you. It was to the guy that said we should run the ball because we were getting 3 to 5 yards a pop, but that "Kelly had to be Kelly" and call a pass.

I do think that we could have run it in with Golson ala BC, though. Who knows?

Referring to the whole game genius, not that last play call. Well second to last. I would have taken a run over the stupid screen pass to prosise tho.

Unrelated, chris brown still starting is laughable. He should just start training at cb, no way hes not last on depth chart next year.

 

[GUknights75]

Referring to the whole game genius, not that last play call. Well second to last. I would have taken a run over the stupid screen pass to prosise tho.

Unrelated, chris brown still starting is laughable. He should just start training at cb, no way hes not last on depth chart next year.

Really? I thought Brown had a fine game 5 catches for 38 yards isn't terrible. He made some key plays to sustain some drives. He isn't our #1 but he is talented and has a place on our offense.

 

[Grahambo]

You've been attending too many Washington functions. You're cherry picking some lengthy posts into a soundbite. You've got a future behind the podium in the White House Press Room.

Syria posted the rule. I reposted it and addressed their violation. You and your wounded spinmeisters continue to avoid that discussion.

Lou Holtz, ND's last N.C head coach, Hall of Famer, and ardent ND supporter all season when the butthurt crowd was forecasting an 8 win season, said succinctly:



I watched that play several times on my dvr and I watched it several times on Final Countdown where they ran it at normal speed and at slow mo on a huge wall screen.

They also should the first Robby TD with a similar infraction by one player, showed the Fisher's post game presser where he pointed out that he had complained to the ref about the type of play earlier in the game. Just as Kelly had stated in his UNC post game presser that he had complained about the snapper being roughed on kicks tand after he did it was called.

Basketball coaches, baseball managers, and football coaches all do that routinely trying to influence the ref or umpire to draw the penalty, charge, or balk when they see the other team doing something that's borderline. Last week it worked for Kelly and we cheered. This week it worked for Fisher and we complained we got jobbed like a bunch of Walmart Wolverines. Next time we run it, I'll bet it will be run with more finesse like it's supposed to be run. Setting the edge and looking for the guy catching the ball that you're blocking for instead of trying to run a route and look for the ball, doesn't sell, "But ref, I'm a receiver."

Lou said it so it must be true! And you don't know anything about my character so let's chill with the Washington comment.

Avoid what discussion? You mean the one where we profoundly and with good reason reject your reasoning for it being a good call? Sorry Old Timer but we've sat here and rejected the reasoning. You keep mentioning Fuller looking at Robinson like he's blocking for a runner. Re-watch the video again because that doesn't happen until after Fuller looks at Golson and the ball is almost in Robinson's hands. Why you keep saying otherwise despite what the video evidence shows is, well, I don't know.

Again, as the video evidence shows, Darby stops Fuller's route and puts hands on and makes no attempt to attack Robinson indicating he has no idea where Robinson is. #26 on FSU also covers Fuller. Ramsey holds the crap out of Prosise and doesn't attempt to cover Robinson. Its all in the video. All 3 are looking at each other trying to pin point blame. None are arguing otherwise because they are the ones that committed a penalty. As others have said, if anything, it should have been offsetting penalties. You choose to look at it differently but nobody is avoiding any discussion.

Sure, you can pull out the rulebook but might as well pull out the rulebook on holding and let me know how many times holding should have been called on FSU. To avoid my apparently biased opinion, look at how many times it should have been called on both teams yet is not.

I'll let this be my last comment about the play. We all will just agree to disagree. Have at it and pick apart this post.

EDIT: I'll also add that before the season started I had ND at 11-1 with their only loss to FSU.

 

[yankeeND]

 

[kmoose]

Unrelated, chris brown still starting is laughable. He should just start training at cb, no way hes not last on depth chart next year.

Kelly is playing him for a reason. Maybe he is doing things that just don't show up in the box score, like blocking downfield? I don't know, but if the coaches (whose jobs depends on the performance of the team) keep putting him out there, then I have to assume that there is a good reason for that.

 

[yankeeND]

Sorry couldn't resist. That was the grossest moment in sports history I have ever witnessed. They deserve each other and the criminal consequences they will face at the end of all this "investigating."

 

[kmoose]

Like you have never heard the refs make a mistake on the number of the player that was penalized. My point is, regardless of who was called for it, both were unjustified.

We disagree. I think Fuller made an obvious block. He even assumed a blocking stance.(he brought his hands into his chest, with his elbows out and parallel to the ground) And I don't care who initiated the contact. As was pointed out earlier, the rule says that the offensive player has to avoid the contact.

 

[philipm31]

Referring to the whole game genius, not that last play call. Well second to last. I would have taken a run over the stupid screen pass to prosise tho.

Unrelated, chris brown still starting is laughable. He should just start training at cb, no way hes not last on depth chart next year.

Second to last play was a pass to Robinson, not a screen pass to Prosise.

And ND had well over 100 yards rushing, and over 230 passing. Kelly did a masterful job of mixing his play calls up throughout the ENTIRE game. I have NO idea what your problem is, or was, with Kelly and his playcalling. It was perfect. He totally outcoached Jimbo.

 

[philipm31]

Hard to believe that Brown had five catches, but his last catch was definitely a good one that helped sustain the last drive.

But he really is not doing much that I can see. Maybe they just need him out there for his elite speed and to create openings for other receivers? I don't know, but I do think that Brown is the weakest WR we have, by a large margin.

 

[Classic Irish]

So, any reactions from recruits about the outcome of the game? Just curious.

 

[Irish2155]

Had nightmares last night..."hey honey, there is a flag down"...

...wasn't a dream, there was really a flag down...

 

[Cpnd1]

d. A player who intentionally removes his helmet during the down commits a foul for unsportsmanlike conduct (Rule 9-2-1-a-1-i).

I know this point has been brought up already. But the fact that this is being so overlooked is ridiculous. I didn't notice live obviously as I was screaming my ass off in complete joy at that time, but re watching the play today it's obvious #26 takes off his helmet. Fowler posted the officially rule of the pass interference, and I called him out about the helmet rule, which he replied didn't matter cause it was post change of possession, which makes no sense cause we kept the fucking ball after the penalty. I know the point is mute to complain about this so much after the fact, but the fact that these people won't just admit that the refs missed a blatant call is so frustrating.

 

[philipm31]

So, any reactions from recruits about the outcome of the game? Just curious.

No idea, but I hope that it helped. One would think it did!

 

[GUknights75]

We disagree. I think Fuller made an obvious block. He even assumed a blocking stance.(he brought his hands into his chest, with his elbows out and parallel to the ground) And I don't care who initiated the contact. As was pointed out earlier, the rule says that the offensive player has to avoid the contact.

I know that we disagree, I don't understand how you can definitively say that he was blocking him. I could see how it appears that he blocks him from the broadcast view, but not the Observer sports camera angle. In my viewpoint, he was hand fighting with Darby and started going back to the outside as the ball was thrown, thus attempting to avoid contact and why his arms and elbows are out and parallel to the ground......point being, it was to close to call. Darby wasn't complaining to the ref so that leads me to believe he didn't think Fuller blocked him. Also what about #26 taking off his helmet? Is that not a penalty and should have offset the OPI call, giving us another chance from the 2 1/2 instead of the 18?

I'm done talking about this, that is my stance until I can see it from a different angle that would definitively show OPI.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Jalen Ramsey is a hell of a player though. He won the game for FSU. Clearly the best player on their defense.


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[Old Man Mike]

Lord! The crappy intramural snapping at one another this time is pretty depressing. Wasn't the game outcome depressing enough?

The Game:
1). We outplayed FSU in most ways during the entire game. We lost mainly because Jameis Winston [who I despise as a "role model Heisman winner"] was just too abnormally good. As a person, he apparently is a stinker, but as an athlete he is awfully damm good. Yes, there is no justice in that.
2). I fault NOTHING of BVGs defensive strategies. In the first half, we throttled those guys [10 points]. In the second half, we dominated the front areas of the field and only utterly ridiculous off-balance semi-desperate semi-impossible accuracy [and picking out the right guy to throw to] by Winston got them down the field. BVGs defense and our guys' efforts swamp almost any other QB that day.
3). Folston was beyond great. TREMENDOUS running! The OLine deserves a bunch of credit too, folks.
4). We played the probable most-athletic team in the country and went with them athlete to athlete. Our guys are legit --- AND FAST. Can we finally can the anti-Longo stuff, if it still exists?
5). In the 4th quarter, everybody on both sides had engaged in a grueling violent warfare. We were STILL violently engaged TO THE LAST PLAY. Can we finally can the anti-Longo stuff, if it still exists? And praise the warrior hearts of our guys?
6). I am taking credit for saying before the season started that Fuller and Robinson were our WR studs and could strut their stuff with anyone. [I'll admit that I was wrong about thinking that Brent was so good that Coach would use him a lot, too, but what-the-hell]. Anyone really wanting to trade our two great ones for anybody else's two, I think is making an even bet at best. Prosise also is becoming an absolute physical stud, and Amir is properly electric. Everett and Coach have huge weapons and I'll not trade our receiving corps for anyone's.
7). The DLine: Praise the Lord!! but they're good. Sheldon, bless you, but right literally alongside: Jarron [you are WAY better than I thought you'd be --- my apologies], Isaac [ditto], Andrew [ditto], Romeo, and your occasionally helpers --- standing applause!!
8). Cole Luke: you're a wonder; maybe even better than your amigo Mr. Riggs, who is also a wonder. If our safeties could get their coverages correct, then they would be sparkling studs too. [as they are anyway about half the time.] And Schmitt, Smith, and Tranquill --- good stuff all over the field.
9). The missed 4th down play [Everett's pitch to Tarean]: first of all, this was a superhuman play by the defender, and we would have had to execute perfectly given how he preternaturally reacted. But the [small] error was by Tarean, not Everett. He did not get quite wide and slightly more deep enough for the pitch. The defender rapidly confronted Everett on the play and he had to pitch when he did --- Herbstreit was wrong about this. Kelly went to Tarean after the play, not Everett.

"The Call":
1). I too think that this was a ticky-tacky thing and should not have been called. Why?
1A). It was apparently not on Prosise, but since Herbstreit and others insist on making this part of their arguments agreeing with the call, I'll say this: Prosise was jammed immediately. It is his right under that circumstance to jam back. The fact that he was the stronger man means that he won the pushing contest, which only took place for about two counts and very little off the line of scrimmage. Because Prosise was playing hurt at the time, his warrior spirit probably revved him up for one last big piece of violent effort. Thus his appearance jacking the guy backwards. Nevertheless, such circumstances are not justification for any call. This aspect of the play should be shut-up about if one insists upon arguing about this. There were not two pass-interference situations here.
1B). Fuller: Physically-in-the-flow this was not pass interference, though "intentionally" it was. Fuller's rightful route is to slant inside at a shallow angle. This he does and is immediately engaged [somewhat radically to block him --- an important facet of this, note how radically Darby gets to impede him] by the DB. Fuller is effectively stymied by this. So far there is no interference. Now is when Fuller's fantastic athleticism and his "secret knowing" of what the play is actually about betrays him. Stymied by Darby, Fuller has only two choices: stop and fall down, or stay engaged with the play. Because he's such a jock, he instantly spins [this is still OK as it in fact stops any illusion of blocking] but, knowing that his job is done he looks to Everett and then Corey, giving away the "intention" of the screened seal-off. Because referees are not supposed to be engaging on speculation of "intention", this should not have been called.
1C). The third DB: this guy was totally out of the play, and engaged in busting his coverage with his fingers largely up his butt. It could WELL have been true that Robinson would have been wide open even if CJ and Will had never touched anyone at all. The FSU defense was buffooned by Kelly's design and Corey's sharp timely route, but was rewarded by the refs judgement of "intention" rather than actual illegality of contact circumstances.
1D). You do not lose a game because of one play. FSU is pretty good. Winston is as fantastic a football player as he is NOT as a person. Yes, we COULD have easily won this with that call not called. Without Winston's heroics we'd have clobbered them.

Notre Dame is one of the best teams in the country. Even Herbstreit said that today. If the PAC-12 is won by anyone not named Oregon, and the Big-12 continues to beat themselves, and we sweep, we are probably back in the play-off contention.

 

[Irish2155]

Lord! The crappy intramural snapping at one another this time is pretty depressing. Wasn't the game outcome depressing enough?

The Game:
1). We outplayed FSU in most ways during the entire game. We lost mainly because Jameis Winston [who I despise as a "role model Heisman winner"] was just too abnormally good. As a person, he apparently is a stinker, but as an athlete he is awfully damm good. Yes, there is no justice in that.
2). I fault NOTHING of BVGs defensive strategies. In the first half, we throttled those guys [10 points]. In the second half, we dominated the front areas of the field and only utterly ridiculous off-balance semi-desperate semi-impossible accuracy [and picking out the right guy to throw to] by Winston got them down the field. BVGs defense and our guys' efforts swamp almost any other QB that day.
3). Folston was beyond great. TREMENDOUS running! The OLine deserves a bunch of credit too, folks.
4). We played the probable most-athletic team in the country and went with them athlete to athlete. Our guys are legit --- AND FAST. Can we finally can the anti-Longo stuff, if it still exists?
5). In the 4th quarter, everybody on both sides had engaged in a grueling violent warfare. We were STILL violently engaged TO THE LAST PLAY. Can we finally can the anti-Longo stuff, if it still exists? And praise the warrior hearts of our guys?
6). I am taking credit for saying before the season started that Fuller and Robinson were our WR studs and could strut their stuff with anyone. [I'll admit that I was wrong about thinking that Brent was so good that Coach would use him a lot, too, but what-the-hell]. Anyone really wanting to trade our two great ones for anybody else's two, I think is making an even bet at best. Prosise also is becoming an absolute physical stud, and Amir is properly electric. Everett and Coach have huge weapons and I'll not trade our receiving corps for anyone's.
7). The DLine: Praise the Lord!! but they're good. Sheldon, bless you, but right literally alongside: Jarron [you are WAY better than I thought you'd be --- my apologies], Isaac [ditto], Andrew [ditto], Romeo, and your occasionally helpers --- standing applause!!
8). Cole Luke: you're a wonder; maybe even better than your amigo Mr. Riggs, who is also a wonder. If our safeties could get their coverages correct, then they would be sparkling studs too. [as they are anyway about half the time.] And Schmitt, Smith, and Tranquill --- good stuff all over the field.
9). The missed 4th down play [Everett's pitch to Tarean]: first of all, this was a superhuman play by the defender, and we would have had to execute perfectly given how he preternaturally reacted. But the [small] error was by Tarean, not Everett. He did not get quite wide and slightly more deep enough for the pitch. The defender rapidly confronted Everett on the play and he had to pitch when he did --- Herbstreit was wrong about this. Kelly went to Tarean after the play, not Everett.

"The Call":
1). I too think that this was a ticky-tacky thing and should not have been called. Why?
1A). It was apparently not on Prosise, but since Herbstreit and others insist on making this part of their arguments agreeing with the call, I'll say this: Prosise was jammed immediately. It is his right under that circumstance to jam back. The fact that he was the stronger man means that he won the pushing contest, which only took place for about two counts and very little off the line of scrimmage. Because Prosise was playing hurt at the time, his warrior spirit probably revved him up for one last big piece of violent effort. Thus his appearance jacking the guy backwards. Nevertheless, such circumstances are not justification for any call. This aspect of the play should be shut-up about if one insists upon arguing about this. There were not two pass-interference situations here.
1B). Fuller: Physically-in-the-flow this was not pass interference, though "intentionally" it was. Fuller's rightful route is to slant inside at a shallow angle. This he does and is immediately engaged [somewhat radically to block him --- an important facet of this, note how radically Darby gets to impede him] by the DB. Fuller is effectively stymied by this. So far there is no interference. Now is when Fuller's fantastic athleticism and his "secret knowing" of what the play is actually about betrays him. Stymied by Darby, Fuller has only two choices: stop and fall down, or stay engaged with the play. Because he's such a jock, he instantly spins [this is still OK as it in fact stops any illusion of blocking] but, knowing that his job is done he looks to Everett and then Corey, giving away the "intention" of the screened seal-off. Because referees are not supposed to be engaging on speculation of "intention", this should not have been called.
1C). The third DB: this guy was totally out of the play, and engaged in busting his coverage with his fingers largely up his butt. It could WELL have been true that Robinson would have been wide open even if CJ and Will had never touched anyone at all. The FSU defense was buffooned by Kelly's design and Corey's sharp timely route, but was rewarded by the refs judgement of "intention" rather than actual illegality of contact circumstances.
1D). You do not lose a game because of one play. FSU is pretty good. Winston is as fantastic a football player as he is NOT as a person. Yes, we COULD have easily won this with that call not called. Without Winston's heroics we'd have clobbered them.

Notre Dame is one of the best teams in the country. Even Herbstreit said that today. If the PAC-12 is won by anyone not named Oregon, and the Big-12 continues to beat themselves, and we sweep, we are probably back in the play-off contention.

I know you are the smartest man on this board, but good lord this is a long post. Is it worth my read? Or is it telling me something I already know?

 

[kmoose]

I know that we disagree, I don't understand how you can definitively say that he was blocking him. I could see how it appears that he blocks him from the broadcast view, but not the Observer sports camera angle. In my viewpoint, he was hand fighting with Darby and started going back to the outside as the ball was thrown, thus attempting to avoid contact and why his arms and elbows are out and parallel to the ground......point being, it was to close to call. Darby wasn't complaining to the ref so that leads me to believe he didn't think Fuller blocked him. Also what about #26 taking off his helmet? Is that not a penalty and should have offset the OPI call, giving us another chance from the 2 1/2 instead of the 18?

Actually, it was the Observer angle that leads me to believe that Fuller was blocking. That is the angle where you can clearly see Fuller's right elbow come up, in what looks like an attempt to leverage the DB, to keep him from breaking outside. It's one of those plays that hardly ever gets called, yes, but it is still a penalty, and if you do it, you cannot complain if they call it. Does it suck? Absolutely! But if you committed a penalty, then you can't complain if you get caught. If that had been ND on defense and FSU on offense, we would be screaming if the official had left his flag in his pocket.

I still haven't seen the helmet thing, so I can't comment on that. But, if they missed it, then that sucks. But again, blown calls are part of the game. I am, on and off, dealing with some work issues this morning. But I will look for the video of the helmet thing, as soon as I can.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Irish 2155: weird addition to the conversation. My only guess is that "no" it's not worth you reading it.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Kelly is playing him for a reason. Maybe he is doing things that just don't show up in the box score, like blocking downfield? I don't know, but if the coaches (whose jobs depends on the performance of the team) keep putting him out there, then I have to assume that there is a good reason for that.

I thought Kelly said before he's a beast in practice. Maybe he's playing him hoping it shows up on Saturday. So far it hasn't.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Kmoose, I hate to agree with you, but the sideline/goal line angle makes it look like Fuller was blocking and jammed the DB and threw back a half step off balance. But what irks me is thats not the ref that threw the flag. It was the back judge behind the play that couldn't see that part of the play well. All he could see was the backs of the DBs.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Jalen Ramsey is a hell of a player though. He won the game for FSU. Clearly the best player on their defense.


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CJ scores a TD on 3rd if not for Ramsey's instincts and athletic ability


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[Irishman77]

Golson could have hit Robinson for an easy td on the last play of the game

Golson could have thrown it to koyack and he would have plowed his way in

Golson should not have wited that long to throw it

Golson is better than Winston if he just sees the field better!

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Can anyone tell me what Matuska did to get a personal foul? If they showed a replay I missed it.


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[irishog77]

Can anyone tell me what Matuska did to get a personal foul? If they showed a replay I missed it.


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The one replay abc showed, seemed to look like a BS call-- his momentum from engaging another player carried him into an fsu player. And he didn't hammer the guy or anything either. He hit him, but not anywhere near with full force.

Edit- this was on the kickoff that was downed. So, the refs must have blown the whistle when the ND player touched his knee to the ground. Just trying to clarify in case you didn't know.

 

[kmoose]

Kmoose, I hate to agree with you, but the sideline/goal line angle makes it look like Fuller was blocking and jammed the DB and threw back a half step off balance. But what irks me is thats not the ref that threw the flag. It was the back judge behind the play that couldn't see that part of the play well. All he could see was the backs of the DBs.

But what if it was even MORE obvious from his angle? There's no replay from that angle, so it is hard to say what the play looked like from there.

 

[GUknights75]

Kmoose, I hate to agree with you, but the sideline/goal line angle makes it look like Fuller was blocking and jammed the DB and threw back a half step off balance. But what irks me is thats not the ref that threw the flag. It was the back judge behind the play that couldn't see that part of the play well. All he could see was the backs of the DBs.

OMM said it best IMO, if that's how you feel than okay. I definitely don't see it that way. The fact that Darby isn't looking for a flag tells me pretty much all I need to know.

 

[Irish Insanity]

OMM said it best IMO, if that's how you feel than okay. I definitely don't see it that way. The fact that Darby isn't looking for a flag tells me pretty much all I need to know.

I actually think the call was BS. I just see a little bit of the other sides argument.