Politics

[Cackalacky2.0]

She had a 2% chance to win and won. Lmaoooooooooo

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Bernie Sanders former press secretary saying what everyone already knew.

It’s stopped because of this current case to be resolved. It hasn’t been stopped it totally and the GOP are throwing shit at a wall. Ultimately it will go through and will be another black mark for the GOP against the common man.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Ga runoff is moot now. NV and AZ to Dems.

 

[Bishop2b5]

It’s stopped because of this current case to be resolved. It hasn’t been stopped it totally and the GOP are throwing shit at a wall. Ultimately it will go through and will be another black mark for the GOP against the common man.

What common man is it that you think the GOP is opposed to? The common man who ran up debts he couldn't afford to pay, or the common man you want to force to pay those debts for him? Do you not realize that every dollar of loan forgiveness for those who incurred the debt must now be taken on by the rest of us, taking money from our families and needs?

 

[TorontoGold]

What common man is it that you think the GOP is opposed to? The common man who ran up debts he couldn't afford to pay, or the common man you want to force to pay those debts for him? Do you not realize that every dollar of loan forgiveness for those who incurred the debt must now be taken on by the rest of us, taking money from our families and needs?

So you think this loan forgiveness is going to be a dollar for dollar increase to your tax burden? I'm guessing you're against the corporate tax cuts too then? Because that results in a reduction of funds to support the debt, surely you were up in arms about that...right?

 

[MacIrish75]

Honest question: What good is student loan forgiveness without any sort of change in student loan policy?

Won’t current and future students incur the same debt? And then we’re back here in 20 more years?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

So you think this loan forgiveness is going to be a dollar for dollar increase to your tax burden? I'm guessing you're against the corporate tax cuts too then? Because that results in a reduction of funds to support the debt, surely you were up in arms about that...right?

All that money will go right into the economy because it’s not going back to interest. Lol. JFC this is so uncontroversial.

 

[ab2cmiller]

All that money will go right into the economy because it’s not going back to interest. Lol. JFC this is so uncontroversial.

It’s controversial because it’s ILLEGAL. Pelosi knew he couldn’t do it. Heck Biden probably knows he can’t do it. 400 billion with a stroke of a pen.

Same type of lawyers that were advising Trump about the election are the kind advising Biden this is legal.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

It’s controversial because it’s ILLEGAL. Pelosi knew he couldn’t do it. Heck Biden probably knows he can’t do it. 400 billion with a stroke of a pen.

Same type of lawyers that were advising Trump about the election are the kind advising Biden this is legal.

It’s not illegal. The bill was authorized by congress and the language is what it is.

 

[NorthDakota]

It’s stopped because of this current case to be resolved. It hasn’t been stopped it totally and the GOP are throwing shit at a wall. Ultimately it will go through and will be another black mark for the GOP against the common man.

What makes you so confident? Curious.

 

[NorthDakota]

It’s not illegal. The bill was authorized by congress and the language is what it is.

Many (including within your party) disagree

 

[Bishop2b5]

So you think this loan forgiveness is going to be a dollar for dollar increase to your tax burden? I'm guessing you're against the corporate tax cuts too then? Because that results in a reduction of funds to support the debt, surely you were up in arms about that...right?

Of course it will impact my tax burden. Where else do you think the money will come from? Just because Joe wants to forgive someone's debt doesn't mean it disappears. It just gets shifted to others. It will be spread across millions of taxpayers. It still amounts to a rather sizeable sum for every person in this country who pays taxes.

Again, it doesn't matter how much it is or how much they don't want to or can't pay off their student loans. THEY incurred the debt through poor decision making. It's NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to suffer the consequences of those bad decisions. It's there's. Please tell me why someone else's debt, that they made of their own free will without consulting me, is my responsibility to repay. Their bad decisions and need don't constitute a responsibility on my part. You still haven't addressed why they made such bad decisions and took on more debt than they could reasonably have expected to be able to repay.

Corporate tax cuts is a totally separate issue with countless differences from student loan forgiveness. If you want to discuss that another day, I'll be glad to, but let's stick to the topic at hand.

 

[Bishop2b5]

All that money will go right into the economy because it’s not going back to interest. Lol. JFC this is so uncontroversial.

JFC... Cack, do you not realize that the money to pay off those loans isn't a net $400B freed up to go back into the economy? It has to come from somewhere. It comes from the pockets of every taxpayer in the country. You aren't suddenly adding $400B to the economy. You're just taking it from one group and giving it to another. For every dollar those now unburdened former students have to spend, there's a dollar missing from the wallets of the rest of us to spend. There's no net increase of money. How do you not get this?

 

[TorontoGold]

Of course it will impact my tax burden. Where else do you think the money will come from? Just because Joe wants to forgive someone's debt doesn't mean it disappears. It just gets shifted to others. It will be spread across millions of taxpayers. It still amounts to a rather sizeable sum for every person in this country who pays taxes.

Again, it doesn't matter how much it is or how much they don't want to or can't pay off their student loans. THEY incurred the debt through poor decision making. It's NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to suffer the consequences of those bad decisions. It's there's. Please tell me why someone else's debt, that they made of their own free will without consulting me, is my responsibility to repay. Their bad decisions and need don't constitute a responsibility on my part. You still haven't addressed why they made such bad decisions and took on more debt than they could reasonably have expected to be able to repay.

Corporate tax cuts is a totally separate issue with countless differences from student loan forgiveness. If you want to discuss that another day, I'll be glad to, but let's stick to the topic at hand.

So you honestly believe that there will be an increase in taxes because of this forgiveness, do your taxes go up every time something like this happens? As someone who has a general sense of the US tax code, maybe it's different in South Dakota?

BECAUSE YOU NEED A DEGREE TO HAVE A WELL PAYING JOB. I love when someone goes into a trade because it provides real tangible results and its usually a good paying job, but not everyone can cut it as a carpenter or electrician. Let's ask #1 if he would hire anyone on his staff without a degree? The answer is likely no. Therefore there is a need to have a degree. It is still a financially sound decision to get a degree even if you have to take on student loans. I wrote a 30 page thesis on this that was reviewed by my school's economics department. I can get you the studies I cited in my thesis if you wish.

Even if you are looking at this through the most selfish lense, this is a GOOD THING. It is much better for you to be able to have a stable economy in which assets can be traded. If you can't sell your assets because no one can afford them...that is bad.

You are making the connection to how this will impact your tax burden, still curious how it's going to do that since you haven't stated exactly how, but a reduction in government revenue is actually much worse than spending. You can't receive 3% on missing revenue, but you can pay interest on debt payments. That is why it is important to note. I am always willing to discuss tax policies, so whenever you feel comfortable to do so just let me know.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Dakota, can you help me understand this concept of “standing” given they keep talking about the difficulty in the courts to find someone with “standing” to file suit.

So let’s say a President decides to give $10,000 to every single person in the United States. All are treated equally and nobody is “harmed”. So nobody can sue because nobody has “standing” despite the President doing something clearly illegal. It all just seems absurd.

 

[TorontoGold]

JFC... Cack, do you not realize that the money to pay off those loans isn't a net $400B freed up to go back into the economy? It has to come from somewhere. It comes from the pockets of every taxpayer in the country. You aren't suddenly adding $400B to the economy. You're just taking it from one group and giving it to another. For every dollar those now unburdened former students have to spend, there's a dollar missing from the wallets of the rest of us to spend. There's no net increase of money. How do you not get this?

If someone makes a smaller monthly payment, that is less money being spent. This individual will now spend that, putting it into the economy. If they don't immediately spend that, it will be put into an investment which will then be reinvested by the financial institution. How do you not get this?

 

[Bishop2b5]

So are you saying that if a person's monthly loan payment is decreased due to some loan forgiveness, he'll then have the difference that he can spend on other things or invest in savings, both of which stimulate the economy? Did I interpret what you said correctly?

 

[NorthDakota]

Dakota, can you help me understand this concept of “standing” given they keep talking about the difficulty in the courts to find someone with “standing” to file suit.

So let’s say a President decides to give $10,000 to every single person in the United States. All are treated equally and nobody is “harmed”. So nobody can sue because nobody has “standing” despite the President doing something clearly illegal. It all just seems absurd.

Standing (Whiskey or grey or others may describe it better) is the requirement a plaintiff must be harmed (an injury) by (causation) the defendant. And the court must be capable of taking action to remedy the problem. If you got those, you got standing.

You basically got the concept. I'll gladly send you my bar prep outline on the topic if you wanna get further in the weeds.

 

[TorontoGold]

So are you saying that if a person's monthly loan payment is decreased due to some loan forgiveness, he'll then have the difference that he can spend on other things or invest in savings, both of which stimulate the economy? Did I interpret what you said correctly?

If a person has more free cash flow, yes that is better for the economy. When a non-person entity has the free cash flow it is less impactful than an individual because they are more reluctant to spend the money. Is it that easier to understand?

 

[Bishop2b5]

Today's discussion has felt like arguing with a shopkeeper over the health of a Norwegian Blue parrot or trying to discuss evolution with the Jehovah's Witness on my porch.

 

[GATTACA!]

Honest question: What good is student loan forgiveness without any sort of change in student loan policy?

Won’t current and future students incur the same debt? And then we’re back here in 20 more years?

Don't disagree with you there.

 

[Bishop2b5]

If a person has more free cash flow, yes that is better for the economy. When a non-person entity has the free cash flow it is less impactful than an individual because they are more reluctant to spend the money. Is it that easier to understand?

I understand the idea. I just wasn't sure if that was what you were trying to say. Of course our indebted former students having more money to spend will be good for the economy. The problem is that it will be equally offset by the same amount of money being taken from others to reduce their debt. There's no free lunch here, T. You know that. Biden forgiving part of their student loan debt doesn't make it go away. It just transfers it to the general body of taxpayers. The indebted former students get an extra 400B to spend. The taxpayers get $400B less to spend.

 

[TorontoGold]

I understand the idea. I just wasn't sure if that was what you were trying to say. Of course our indebted former students having more money to spend will be good for the economy. The problem is that it will be equally offset by the same amount of money being taken from others to reduce their debt. There's no free lunch here, T. You know that. Biden forgiving part of their student loan debt doesn't make it go away. It just transfers it to the general body of taxpayers. The indebted former students get an extra 400B to spend. The taxpayers get $400B less to spend.

The government is in a much better spot to pay back these debts than the general populace. I'm willing to bet payment terms are a bit better for the Gov than Joe Blow.

You and I have much different lending terms than the government. Easier to call in a debt from an individual who doesn't have the world's largest and best military.

 

[Irish#1]

So you honestly believe that there will be an increase in taxes because of this forgiveness, do your taxes go up every time something like this happens? As someone who has a general sense of the US tax code, maybe it's different in South Dakota?

BECAUSE YOU NEED A DEGREE TO HAVE A WELL PAYING JOB. I love when someone goes into a trade because it provides real tangible results and its usually a good paying job, but not everyone can cut it as a carpenter or electrician. Let's ask #1 if he would hire anyone on his staff without a degree? The answer is likely no. Therefore there is a need to have a degree. It is still a financially sound decision to get a degree even if you have to take on student loans. I wrote a 30 page thesis on this that was reviewed by my school's economics department. I can get you the studies I cited in my thesis if you wish.

Even if you are looking at this through the most selfish lense, this is a GOOD THING. It is much better for you to be able to have a stable economy in which assets can be traded. If you can't sell your assets because no one can afford them...that is bad.

You are making the connection to how this will impact your tax burden, still curious how it's going to do that since you haven't stated exactly how, but a reduction in government revenue is actually much worse than spending. You can't receive 3% on missing revenue, but you can pay interest on debt payments. That is why it is important to note. I am always willing to discuss tax policies, so whenever you feel comfortable to do so just let me know.

Wrong turn Toronto. I have three on a staff of ten that don’t have degrees and that doesn’t include me.

BTW……The Boomer whining gets old. You guys need to quit blaming the Boomers for your problems. You conveniently forget that Boomers were protesting to end the Viet Nam war and were pushing for environmental change (we called it ecology back then) before Gen X, millennials and GenZ. Also struck a lot to raise wages. Of course the government cheese was a hit!

 

[Bishop2b5]

The government is in a much better spot to pay back these debts than the general populace. I'm willing to bet payment terms are a bit better for the Gov than Joe Blow.

You and I have much different lending terms than the government. Easier to call in a debt from an individual who doesn't have the world's largest and best military.

I'm sure the government does get better terms than you or I. However, it doesn't change the fact that the debt isn't magically erased. It doesn't change the fact that when it is repaid, it has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is the taxpayer's wallet. There's no free lunch here. If there was, then why doesn't the government just forgive all debts? Why not wipe out all mortgages or car loans or credit card debt or medical bills? By your argument, that would free up literally trillions of dollars that consumers could then pour into the economy. I assume I don't actually need to explain why they don't and why that wouldn't work. Doing a limited version of that with student loan forgiveness is no better, just smaller.

 

[Irish#1]

SNL’s opening skit is hilarious.

 

[jprue24]

Here's the problem summed up neatly and wisely:


“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.” ― Alexander Fraser Tytler

Do you understand that what Biden attempted to do was buy votes by promising to give them something for free from the public treasury? There's no other moral or ethical justification for straight up robbing one group to pay the debts of another.

As for your selfish prick comment, how is anyone a selfish prick for wanting to work hard and keep what they earned and let you do the same? My obligation is to my own family or those I choose of my own free will to help, not to someone I don't know who's made a bunch of bad decisions and now wants the government to force me to pay for their mistakes. Are you a selfish prick for not paying my credit card bill after I bought several guitars? No? So that's different, huh? Knock that silly overly emotional selfish prick nonsense off then.

So are tax cuts. So is just about everything politicians do. Biden fulfilled a campaign promise.

To keep this on education, do you think public education is "robbing" from childless property owners to ensure the youth of this country receive a somewhat standard level of education?

That whole line of reasoning is ridiculous. We "rob" from one group to pay the "debt" of another ALL THE TIME. It's called a society. You just don't like this particular "robbing".

And yes, you are acting like a selfish prick. Rather than recognize that this will impact roughly 43 million of your fellow citizens (the vast majority taxpayers like yourself) in a positive way, you go with, "that's not fair" and try to use some lame logical fallacy to pretend that all debt is the same.

By the way, Tytler didn't like democracy and there is no written evidence he ever said that quote. It's just more right-wing rhetoric meant to demean people who receive assistance from the government.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Toronto, if taxes won't go up if the government "forgives" $400B in student loans, where do you think the money comes from? Or what do you think happens to that rather large debt? Most of those loans aren't actually from the government, AFAIK. They're from banks and other lending institutions and just guaranteed by the Gov, correct? You're talking real money paid to real lenders and coming out of the pockets of real taxpaying families who already have their own debts and expenses to cover. Of course our taxes will go up one way or another to cover the cost, or the government will have to reduce spending somewhere else on something we'd expected them to do. No matter how you cut it, spin it, or paint it in a different light, it's forcing the rest of us to pay the debts of college educated young adults who made some woefully bad decisions and now want the rest of us to protect them from the consequences of their actions. No.

 

[jprue24]

Bernie Sanders former press secretary saying what everyone already knew.

That woman HATES Democrats with an admirable passion.