Politics

[GoIrish41]

By the way, I think Kennedy just delivered the White House to any moderate republican who can make it out of the primaries. They can now appeal to the base by bad mouthing liberal overreach secure in the knowledge that they won't actually have to do anything about gay marriage or health care.

Problem is navigating the GOP primaries to the nomination looking anything like a moderate.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Problem is navigating the GOP primaries to the nomination looking anything like a moderate.

That's why it's so helpful- they can take a hard turn to the right now knowing that they will never actually have to follow up on their promises to fight against equal marriage or health care.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

By the way, I think Kennedy just delivered the White House to any moderate republican who can make it out of the primaries. They can now appeal to the base by bad mouthing liberal overreach secure in the knowledge that they won't actually have to do anything about gay marriage or health care.

Wonderful. We can look forward to another Bush presidency. Perhaps he'll pass Medicare Part E, before launching a $1 trillion war against Iran...

F*ck the GOP. Hopefully American Christians tire of being party's useful idiots sooner than later.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

But we didn't. And so, Congress passed ACA. We can talk all day about the problems with the law, or what would have been a better solution. But nobody was offering a better solution.

lol I didn't know Pelosi, Reid, and Obama were sitting around fielding suggestions.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

lol I didn't know Pelosi, Reid, and Obama were sitting around fielding suggestions.

You mad bro?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

The reality is the the republicans have been trying for 5 years to repeal the law. They've had every opportunity to present alternatives. That's actually why they're secretly happy that SCOTUS upheld the law. That allows them to keep complaining without offering alternatives for the 7 million Americans who would have lost their subsidies.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

The reality is the the republicans have been trying for 5 years to repeal the law. They've had every opportunity to present alternatives. That's actually why they're secretly happy that SCOTUS upheld the law. That allows them to keep complaining without offering alternatives for the 7 million Americans who would have lost their subsidies.

1. The majority of Americans want the law repealed or replaced.

2. They've had every opportunity? Without the White House? That's a joke.

3. Ask Ben Carson or Rand Paul if they have an alternative. Those two are the only ones I know of off the top of my head that do.

4. The Democrats owe millions of apologies to people whose plans were cancelled and were lied to repeatedly.

 

[potownhero]

The reality is the the republicans have been trying for 5 years to repeal the law. They've had every opportunity to present alternatives. That's actually why they're secretly happy that SCOTUS upheld the law. That allows them to keep complaining without offering alternatives for the 7 million Americans who would have lost their subsidies.

You are aware of their alternative suggestions, aren't you?

 

[IrishinSyria]

4. The Democrats owe millions of apologies to people whose plans were cancelled and were lied to repeatedly.

Agree. If Dems could have worked together, we could have had healthcare reform under Clinton and people with pre-existing injuries would never have lost their coverage.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

1. The majority of Americans want the law repealed or replaced.

2. They've had every opportunity? Without the White House? That's a joke.

3. Ask Ben Carson or Rand Paul if they have an alternative. Those two are the only ones I know of off the top of my head that do.

4. The Democrats owe millions of apologies to people whose plans were cancelled and were lied to repeatedly.

1. Many people who want the law repealed love everything about the law except the mandate, which makes the law actually viable. Many also are very much in favor of the Affordable Care Act, but want that tyrannical Obamacare law repealed.

2. I didn't realize that one needed to hold the White House in order to legislate. No one has presented an alternate plan...any plan.

3. Would love to hear them. A shame that no one thought to present an alternative for the several months that the ACA was being debated.

4. And how many of those plans would have left people bankrupt if they would have actually gotten sick? Republicans don't need to apologize to the millions who now have healthcare who didn't before? How about those who have pre-existing conditions that now have coverage?

Millions have health coverage who did not have it before. This law will save many many lives.

So...you are mad then...bro?

NOTE:
Don't mean to be a jerk. I'm having fun with the discussion. You can be a good person whether we agree or not.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

You are aware of their alternative suggestions, aren't you?

Would love to hear specifics. I've heard platitudes, but few actual alternatives.

 

[wizards8507]

Agree. If Dems could have worked together, we could have had healthcare reform under Clinton and people with pre-existing injuries would never have lost their coverage.

Insurance, by its very definition, cannot cover preexisting conditions. That's what insurance IS. You buy it IN CASE something bad happens. You can't buy car insurance after a crash, can't buy life insurance after you die, can't buy homeowner's insurance after a fire. This is the single biggest issue where progressives rely on the economic illiteracy of the American people for their support. This, and social security privatization.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Insurance, by its very definition, cannot cover preexisting conditions. That's what insurance IS. You buy it IN CASE something bad happens. You can't buy car insurance after a crash, can't buy life insurance after you die, can't buy homeowner's insurance after a fire. This is the single biggest issue where progressives rely on the economic illiteracy of the American people for their support. This, and social security privatization.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

That's why it needs to be universal from the get go.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Insurance, by its very definition, cannot cover preexisting conditions. That's what insurance IS. You buy it IN CASE something bad happens. You can't buy car insurance after a crash, can't buy life insurance after you die, can't buy homeowner's insurance after a fire. This is the single biggest issue where progressives rely on the economic illiteracy of the American people for their support. This, and social security privatization.

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It absolutely can if you make the pool large enough. Insurance is the distribution of risk. If there were only some way to... mandate... that all Anericans buy insurance, you can distribute risk and let people buy in even with a preexisting injury. The first page of Robert's opinion in King explains how one such model would work.

 

[wizards8507]

It absolutely can if you make the pool large enough. Insurance is the distribution of risk. If there were only some way to... mandate... that all Anericans buy insurance, you can distribute risk and let people buy in even with a preexisting injury. The first page of Robert's opinion in King explains how one such model would work.

And you see nothing wrong with the government forcing free men and women to buy a product or service simply as a condition of existing in this country...and I get mocked for using the word "tyranny."

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[IrishJayhawk]

And you see nothing wrong with the government forcing free men and women to buy a product or service simply as a condition of existing in this country...and I get mocked for using the word "tyranny."

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Not if we're going to force emergency rooms to cover them when they get sick.

We're one of the only industrialized countries that doesn't guarantee people health coverage. We get worse results for more cost. What gives?

Health coverage is one of the only things that everyone, regardless of race, socio-economic status, or any other distinction, will need. It's not optional. Unless we are willing to allow people to die when they get sick without insurance, we need to figure out a better way to handle it.

 

[woolybug25]

And you see nothing wrong with the government forcing free men and women to buy a product or service simply as a condition of existing in this country...and I get mocked for using the word "tyranny."

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They force us free men to pay for their operations through our taxes, amirite?

Spare me the answer, I understand that your libertarian philosophy will probably answer that with an emphatic "no". But the General Welfare Clause allows for:

Levying of taxes for two purposes only: to pay the debts of the United States, and to provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States.

There are two ways you can see this relating to mandated insurance:

1) to pay debts of the United States. What you failed to mention in your previous comment regarding purchasing insurance after the fact; you fail to acknowledge the fact that the cost remains. If a guy gets hit by a car, and is unrecognizeable and/or unable to provide documentation of proper insurance at the time of their injury, it would be morally reprehensible (and frankly, un-christrian) to not save their life. That act will cost money. If they do not pay it, that cost will eventually trickle to the taxpayer. Even if hospitals were completely privatized, they would classify it as bad debt and lower/eliminate tax revenue for the government.

2) for general welfare. Our government has a constitutional responsibility to care for the general welfare of our population. As a libertarian, you should be someone that believes in interpreting the constitution as written. Welp... That's how it's written.

 

[IrishinSyria]

And you see nothing wrong with the government forcing free men and women to buy a product or service simply as a condition of existing in this country...and I get mocked for using the word "tyranny."

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I see literally no problem.

 

[GoIrish41]

lol I didn't know Pelosi, Reid, and Obama were sitting around fielding suggestions.

They had eight years befor Obama was in office to do something. They did nothing except start a war, grow the government (homeland security), and lower taxes for rich people. Had it not occurred to them that all those people without insurance might be a problem? I will answer for you ... No. Why do the Dems have to initiate helping people other than fat cats? And the 50 times they tried and failed to repeal ACA was not only an embarrassment but it was also a lot of time wasted -- time in which they could have been thinking of a better alternative.

 

[Irish YJ]

how about we just start with hospital, insurance, and drug company reform.

Could we all at least agree that no one should pay more than a buck for an aspirin, and that life saving potions that cost less than $10 to make should not go for $100+

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

1. Many people who want the law repealed love everything about the law except the mandate, which makes the law actually viable. Many also are very much in favor of the Affordable Care Act, but want that tyrannical Obamacare law repealed.

2. I didn't realize that one needed to hold the White House in order to legislate. No one has presented an alternate plan...any plan.

3. Would love to hear them. A shame that no one thought to present an alternative for the several months that the ACA was being debated.

4. And how many of those plans would have left people bankrupt if they would have actually gotten sick? Republicans don't need to apologize to the millions who now have healthcare who didn't before? How about those who have pre-existing conditions that now have coverage?

Millions have health coverage who did not have it before. This law will save many many lives.

So...you are mad then...bro?

NOTE:
Don't mean to be a jerk. I'm having fun with the discussion. You can be a good person whether we agree or not.

1. People want it repealed or replaced. You can complicate that fact all you want.

2. Since 2009 Republicans have had very little power in terms of legislation. Anything they would have thrown at the White House as an alternative would've hit the trash can before the desk. You know this. Don't play dumb. ACA was rammed down America's throat.

3. Ben Carson: he may have a clue what he's talking about

4. There's no way to determine or predict the "woulda coulda shoulda." What we DO know is that millions of Americans were deliberately lied to about this entire scam and lost their plans, but it doesn't bother you or GoIrish41 because the ends justify the means and the only barometer we're using is "more people have health insurance."

5. I should add that ACA has had no impact on me or my health insurance. I didn't lose my plan or doctor. I feel for the individuals and families who are on the receiving end of this mess and were 100% deliberately lied to by the president.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

They had eight years befor Obama was in office to do something. They did nothing except start a war, grow the government (homeland security), and lower taxes for rich people. Had it not occurred to them that all those people without insurance might be a problem? I will answer for you ... No. Why do the Dems have to initiate helping people other than fat cats? And the 50 times they tried and failed to repeal ACA was not only an embarrassment but it was also a lot of time wasted -- time in which they could have been thinking of a better alternative.

The idea that better alternatives haven't been introduced is just not true. We've discussed that topic on here about 140 times. You talk like Obama's sitting around saying, "Gee, this law I lied about and passed just isn't cutting it. I wish the Republicans would come up with an alternative I could pass in its place." Give me a break.

Since the only thing you care about is the number of people who have health insurance, ACA is a winner. Since I put more emphasis on quality and cost of care, I'll say the Democrats took a problem and made it worse. And if you passed 5th grade math, you realize it will continue to get worse.

 

[wizards8507]

I see literally no problem.

Good thing, because now that they have this happy power, the floodgates are open. They can make you buy a gun, a gym membership, a Prius, life insurance, or a vasectomy. You've conceded in principle that the government can FORCE you to buy things "for the greater good" and there's nothing unique to limit that to health insurance. They have you and me by the balls on whatever crackpot scheme they come up with in the future.

 

[GoIrish41]

Good thing, because now that they have this happy power, the floodgates are open. They can make you buy a gun, a gym membership, a Prius, life insurance, or a vasectomy. You've conceded in principle that the government can FORCE you to buy things "for the greater good" and there's nothing unique to limit that to health insurance. They have you and me by the balls on whatever crackpot scheme they come up with in the future.

I think you just gave away the plot to Oliver Stone's next movie ... Buy, Buy America.

 

[EddytoNow]

Good thing, because now that they have this happy power, the floodgates are open. They can make you buy a gun, a gym membership, a Prius, life insurance, or a vasectomy. You've conceded in principle that the government can FORCE you to buy things "for the greater good" and there's nothing unique to limit that to health insurance. They have you and me by the balls on whatever crackpot scheme they come up with in the future.

The government (federal, state, and local/Republican, Democrat, and Independent) has been forcing its citizens to buy things ever since the first tax or fee was imposed. I grew up during the Vietnam War. I opposed the war, but my first paycheck back in 1969 included tax money that financed that war. I am now in my sixties. My children no longer attend public schools, yet I pay sales taxes and property taxes that support the local schools. The roads in Michigan are a mess. We recently turned down a tax increase that would have provided money to repair those roads. The Republican legislature is going to repair the roads anyhow, using money taken from education and child tax credits. I am forced to buy automobile insurance and have proof of such before I can renew my automobile registration. There are many more examples. My point is that I am forced to buy these things even if I personally don't support the way my tax dollars are going to be used. Yes, it is "for the better good". The alternative would be to let each taxpayer decide what public programs they wish to support. The result would be a disfunctional government with the military and multiple other government functions shutting down completely for lack of funds. In effect, we could all be "Ted Cruz" and shut the government down completely when we don't get our way.

 

[Cackalacky]

My summer wedding schedule just filled up. I got 12 events sent to me on FB yesterday.

 

[pkt77242]

Good thing, because now that they have this happy power, the floodgates are open. They can make you buy a gun, a gym membership, a Prius, life insurance, or a vasectomy. You've conceded in principle that the government can FORCE you to buy things "for the greater good" and there's nothing unique to limit that to health insurance. They have you and me by the balls on whatever crackpot scheme they come up with in the future.

If you can't understand how health insurance is different, then I don't know what to tell you.

The best analogy is that breathing is like driving, if you are doing either you need insurance.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

My summer wedding schedule just filled up. I got 12 events sent to me on FB yesterday.

Awesome.

 

[GoldenDome]

Good thing, because now that they have this happy power, the floodgates are open. They can make you buy a gun, a gym membership, a Prius, life insurance, or a vasectomy. You've conceded in principle that the government can FORCE you to buy things "for the greater good" and there's nothing unique to limit that to health insurance. They have you and me by the balls on whatever crackpot scheme they come up with in the future.

You have nothing left but a pitiful fearmongering slippery slope argument.

Did you wet your bed last night from the nightmares Linsdey Graham gave you?

 

[pkt77242]

1. People want it repealed or replaced. You can complicate that fact all you want.

Life isn't black and white and neither are the polls. It is more complicated then that.

2. Since 2009 Republicans have had very little power in terms of legislation. Anything they would have thrown at the White House as an alternative would've hit the trash can before the desk. You know this. Don't play dumb. ACA was rammed down America's throat.

So they shouldn't try? Then why keep trying to repeal it?

3. Ben Carson: he may have a clue what he's talking about

Why? I know plenty of doctors who understand insurance from their side, but who don't know a lick about actual insurance companies or how to provide it to our country. Care to expand on why he knows a clue about providing insurance to millions? Hint, being a doctor isn't the answer.

4. There's no way to determine or predict the "woulda coulda shoulda." What we DO know is that millions of Americans were deliberately lied to about this entire scam and lost their plans, but it doesn't bother you or GoIrish41 because the ends justify the means and the only barometer we're using is "more people have health insurance."

You keep going back to this, but the reason that most people lost their insurance plans was out of his control. It is because better plans were mandated. Does that suck, yes. Should Obama have used the exact words that he did. Probably not.

5. I should add that ACA has had no impact on me or my health insurance. I didn't lose my plan or doctor. I feel for the individuals and families who are on the receiving end of this mess and were 100% deliberately lied to by the president.

Sigh. You seem to have latched onto one thing like a bone. What about the millions of people who are better off because of the law? What about those who lost their plans but now have a better plan?

My problem when I argue/disagree with you is that it feels like you see things in black and white. There is no grey or nuance to your positions. Things are either great or horrific. Is there no middle ground? Can you admit that the ACA does some things well, and outside the mandate is pretty damn popular.