Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
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    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Whiskeyjack

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The thing that makes this issue interesting is that our concept of marriage has been so fundamentally latered that a lot of the benefits seem arbitrary, if it is just favoring one adult relationship over another. But that was not the purpose of encouraging and protecting marriage historically.

This battle was lost years ago, with the advent of contraception and no-fault divorce. SSM is simply one of many logical consequences that will follow on from redefining marriage as a contractual affirmation of romantic feelings between consenting adults instead of a social arrangement that promotes the welfare of children.

In fact it's unclear that any sexual taboo will survive going forward; now that SSM is a fait accompli, the cultural vanguard is attempting to normalize polyamory, incest and beastiality as well.

Traditional communitarians v. radical individualists. Catholics v. Protestants. The central conflict of western civilization continues to play out.
 

RDU Irish

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This battle was lost years ago, with the advent of contraception and no-fault divorce. SSM is simply one of many logical consequences that will follow on from redefining marriage as a contractual affirmation of romantic feelings between consenting adults instead of a social arrangement that promotes the welfare of children.

In fact it's unclear that any sexual taboo will survive going forward; now that SSM is a fait accompli, the cultural vanguard is attempting to normalize polyamory, incest and beastiality as well.

Traditional communitarians v. radical individualists. Catholics v. Protestants. The central conflict of western civilization continues to play out.

What does the romantic feeling matter? You aren't legally required to love someone to marry them, never have.

I think women's rights (lack thereof) had quite a bit to do with the way the institution of marriage was implemented and governed.

Marty and I are on the same page. Treat everyone as individuals and stop acting like government issued marriage licenses mean anything. If people want to support eachother contractually, more power to them. What difference is it to me if they are different genders or not, or from the same family or not or black or white. None of Uncle Sam's damn business.
 

Whiskeyjack

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What does the romantic feeling matter? You aren't legally required to love someone to marry them, never have.

Because that's the ideal of marriage now. In practice, you're right that the State doesn't care if there's any actual romance involved. Consent is the only requirement now.

I think women's rights (lack thereof) had quite a bit to do with the way the institution of marriage was implemented and governed.

That's a very liberal way of looking at it. Since the dawn of Christianity, marriage has been an effective way to channel the male eros for the greater good of society by insisting that a man publicly commit himself to a single woman, and then holding him accountable for her care and any children produced by their union. Like all human institutions, Christian marriage had it's fair share of injustice, but it was a huge improvement for women and children over the pagan practices it supplanted in Europe.

Marty and I are on the same page. Treat everyone as individuals and stop acting like government issued marriage licenses mean anything. If people want to support eachother contractually, more power to them. What difference is it to me if they are different genders or not, or from the same family or not or black or white. None of Uncle Sam's damn business.

That would work for a libertarian only concerned about the "rights" of adults. What about the children? Does the State not have an interest in safe-guarding the well-being of future constituents? Do you think the sexual revolution and no-fault divorce have had a salutary effect on families in this country, as we're quickly approaching the day when a majority of American children will be born into single-parent households?
 

woolybug25

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This battle was lost years ago, with the advent of contraception and no-fault divorce. SSM is simply one of many logical consequences that will follow on from redefining marriage as a contractual affirmation of romantic feelings between consenting adults instead of a social arrangement that promotes the welfare of children.

In fact it's unclear that any sexual taboo will survive going forward; now that SSM is a fait accompli, the cultural vanguard is attempting to normalize polyamory, incest and beastiality as well.

Traditional communitarians v. radical individualists. Catholics v. Protestants. The central conflict of western civilization continues to play out.

I think the bolded is a stretch. Government's role isn't to define religious relationships between people, but they do have the obligation to create fairness and legal rights to all people. I don't see how fulfilling that duty and giving the same legal rights to consenting adults would lead to changes in protections to children and animals. I don't see any scenario where civilized western ideals would warp to acceptance of child molestation or bestiality.

Polygamy on the other hand, certainly could end up being an eventual talking point. Heck, it's already been one in this country for many years because of traditional mormons. I think most people don't see this as a legal rights issue (as the ssm argument usually lies), but rather a medical and child welfare issue.
 

Domina Nostra

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Polygamy on the other hand, certainly could end up being an eventual talking point. Heck, it's already been one in this country for many years because of traditional mormons. I think most people don't see this as a legal rights issue (as the ssm argument usually lies), but rather a medical and child welfare issue.

Are you are still allowed to think that when it comes to polygamy? So this isn't an issue where all sane, good, rational, law-abiding people have to agree yet? There are still, like, other considerations involved?

Polygamy was quickly shut down by the Supreme Court and, as I understand it, God revealed to the Mormons that it was not longer his will shortly thereafter. Luckily, it sounds like medicine and social science data will keep it at bay for a little while longer.

Government's role isn't to define religious relationships between people, but they do have the obligation to create fairness and legal rights to all people.

This is where the rubber hits the road. If a divided society has very different ideas about what is good and what people are entitled to as a matter of justice, they are not going to simply agree every time the government decides what is "fair." When the issue is important enough, you can have real serious conflicts.
 
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phgreek

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Are you are still allowed to think that when it comes to polygamy? So this isn't an issue where all sane, good, rational, law-abiding people have to agree yet? There are still, like, other considerations involved?

Polygamy was quickly shut down by the Supreme Court and, as I understand it, God revealed to the Mormons that it was not longer his will shortly thereafter. Luckily, it sounds like medicine and social science data will keep it at bay for a little while longer.



This is where the rubber hits the road. If a divided society has very different ideas about what is good and what people are entitled to as a matter of justice, they are not going to simply agree every time the government decides what is "fair." When the issue is important enough, you can have real serious conflicts.

That may well be the case, but it also conveniently coincided with removal of a major barrier to statehood. Also, aforementioned "traditional" LDS are the Fundamentalist LDS (FLDS) run by nuts like Warren Jeffs, and have nothing to do with the LDS church we associate with the Mormon tabernacle choir and BYU. Exactly no one of LDS faith is polygamist...almost all FLDS folks are, and they hide in remote areas, and along borders of states...you won't see them unless you go looking...and I wouldn't.
 

Domina Nostra

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That may well be the case, but it also conveniently coincided with removal of a major barrier to statehood. Also, aforementioned "traditional" LDS are the Fundamentalist LDS (FLDS) run by nuts like Warren Jeffs, and have nothing to do with the LDS church we associate with the Mormon tabernacle choir and BYU. Exactly no one of LDS faith is polygamist...almost all FLDS folks are, and they hide in remote areas, and along borders of states...you won't see them unless you go looking...and I wouldn't.

I hear you, but if the founder of the religion does something on God's authority, the religion has to own it on some level, right? Granted, I don't know how Mormon theology works, so there may be some satisfying explanation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/us/its-official-mormon-founder-had-up-to-40-wives.html?_r=0

List of Joseph Smith's wives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

RDU Irish

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Because that's the ideal of marriage now. In practice, you're right that the State doesn't care if there's any actual romance involved. Consent is the only requirement now.



That's a very liberal way of looking at it. Since the dawn of Christianity, marriage has been an effective way to channel the male eros for the greater good of society by insisting that a man publicly commit himself to a single woman, and then holding him accountable for her care and any children produced by their union. Like all human institutions, Christian marriage had it's fair share of injustice, but it was a huge improvement for women and children over the pagan practices it supplanted in Europe.



That would work for a libertarian only concerned about the "rights" of adults. What about the children? Does the State not have an interest in safe-guarding the well-being of future constituents? Do you think the sexual revolution and no-fault divorce have had a salutary effect on families in this country, as we're quickly approaching the day when a majority of American children will be born into single-parent households?

Big difference between what is between you and God and you and Government.

As for kids, let me know when we get serious about bettering their chances. Start with permanently pulling kids out of negligent households with a fresh start in a full adoption setting. There is a reason adoptive parents go overseas for a child and pay huge sums of money. Yeah, single parent homes are a huge problem. However, we can't scarlet letter anyone for their choices and our welfare system incentivizes single parenthood. Get serious about disincentives for choices with statistically crappy outcomes or STFU.

Social mores used to mean something and actually influence choices. Now our egocentric/atheist/nihilistic society uses the predictable outcomes to reinforce more of the same. In the meantime, people living in a normal, traditional sense are marginalized and even demonized using their lack of acceptance to bludgeon people into enabling behavior that runs counter to advancing our society all in the name of "equal rights."

So if we are all to be treated equal, I would rather see the perceived "rights" of marriage revoked so that individuals can be equal than to engage in an endless debate of who is good enough to be members of this special club.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I think the bolded is a stretch. Government's role isn't to define religious relationships between people, but they do have the obligation to create fairness and legal rights to all people.

Do children count as people? Because any time the rights of children and the unborn conflict with those of consenting adults, the former seem to lose 100% of the time.

I don't see how fulfilling that duty and giving the same legal rights to consenting adults would lead to changes in protections to children and animals.

Incest != sexual abuse of minors. Though if "consent" becomes the sole lynch-pin of sexual ethics, the legal "age of consent" suddenly becomes far more important than any arbitrary number should be.

If consent is all that matters, why should we discriminate against adults who happen to be related? Simple and inexpensive medical tests can quickly tell them whether or not their union presents an elevated risk of birth defects. Assuming that's not the case, why not get it on with your sister?

And regarding beastiality, zoophiles will argue that animals can "consent" (it's well-covered in that article linked above, but be warned that it may turn your stomach). And even if they can't, who cares? Our society regularly and systematically does far worse things to animals than f*cking them. So why not get it on with your horse?

I don't see any scenario where civilized western ideals would warp to acceptance of child molestation or bestiality.

As mentioned above, I didn't bring up child molestation, but depending on how you view the current trend, it could definitely happen. Sexual exploitation of minors was rampant in the ancient world, and to the extent that we're basically re-paganizing, it could easily come back. If the whims of adults (i.e. the powerful) are all that matter, it's only a matter of time.

Polygamy on the other hand, certainly could end up being an eventual talking point. Heck, it's already been one in this country for many years because of traditional mormons. I think most people don't see this as a legal rights issue (as the ssm argument usually lies), but rather a medical and child welfare issue.

Slippery slopes, Dude. SSM was unthinkable before Andrew Sullivan started advocating for it in The New Republic in 1989. Yet now that cause is as good as won. Polyamory is next, but it won't be the last stop on our slide down.
 
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RDU Irish

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Consenting adults, WTF do I care if some dude has six wives. Isn't that between the pack of them? Who am I to shove my morality legally down their throat? Gay marriage makes it obvious that the issues Whiskey raises are not of importance to the modern definition of marriage so go ahead and marry 20 million women for all I care. Not like there aren't people out there doing this stuff unofficially anyway.
 

MartyIrish

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Consenting adults, WTF do I care if some dude has six wives. Isn't that between the pack of them? Who am I to shove my morality legally down their throat? Gay marriage makes it obvious that the issues Whiskey raises are not of importance to the modern definition of marriage so go ahead and marry 20 million women for all I care. Not like there aren't people out there doing this stuff unofficially anyway.

I agree...However, who are they to shove their way of life down ours? As seen with forcing churches to perform ceremonies or hold receptions.

The problem is, I think Whiskey hit this perfectly, is we're swinging the scales all the way to the other side. Where there are no longer the constraints of social/religious morals to keep us in check. (the child molestation view is ALREADY changing....Remember, "gay" was taboo just years ago...you don't think something viewed as perverse now will make it's way to mainstream?)
 

phgreek

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I hear you, but if the founder of the religion does something on God's authority, the religion has to own it on some level, right? Granted, I don't know how Mormon theology works, so there may be some satisfying explanation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/us/its-official-mormon-founder-had-up-to-40-wives.html?_r=0

List of Joseph Smith's wives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sure, not arguing that at all...I'm even skeptical that the move from polygamy was based on revelation...and wasn't motivated by the desire for Utah to become a state. At a minimum, I'd say the LDS prophet at the time was, shall we say, ready to receive that revelation...

That said, I really don't care how or why it happened, just to point out for the sake of accuracy that there is a HUGE difference between the conduct of FLDS and the LDS folks you'd run into in Salt Lake City...I think sometimes the polygammy thing gets hung on the present day LDS folks, and it is as goofy to them as it is to you.
 

woolybug25

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Do children count as people? Because any time the rights of children and the unborn conflict with those of consenting adults, the former seem to lose 100% of the time.

Children are people, but the entire argument of pro choice is that a fetus of a certain age is not an actual human being yet. It's not a child right vs adult right issue. It's based primarily in the fact that the fetus is not an actual human with rights yet. At least in theory.


Incest != sexual abuse of minors. Though if "consent" becomes the sole lynch-pin of sexual ethics, the legal "age of consent" suddenly becomes far more important than any arbitrary number should be.

If consent is all that matters, why should we discriminate against adults who happen to be related? Simple and inexpensive medical tests can quickly tell them whether or not their union presents an elevated risk of birth defects. Assuming that's not the case, why not get it on with your sister?

The fact remains that the prevailing view is that an impressionable child does not have the ability to consent, as they do not understand the scope. I see what you are saying, but laws have always limited rights to age groups. For instance, drinking ages and military age minimums. There is an assumption, and a large one in my opinion, that for some reason ssm would not only evolve into degradation of western values but also disintegrate centuries of right limitations. I just don't see it.

And regarding beastiality, zoophiles will argue that animals can "consent" (it's well-covered in that article linked above, but be warned that it may turn your stomach). And even if they can't, who care? Our society regularly and systematically does far worse things to animals than f*cking them. So why not get it on with your horse?

Animals do not have the same constitutional rights as humans, so there would never be a reason to grant them legal relationship status with a human being. The other end (no pun intended) is that there is very little way to prove consent with an animal. There are legal definitions to consent used in rape cases, but those would make zero sense in judging the consent of an animal. Furthermore, many of the same concepts around minors not understanding the scope of consent would also stand for animals.

As mentioned above, I didn't mention child molestation, but depending on how you view the current trend, it could definitely happen. Sexual exploitation of minors was rampant in the ancient world, and to the extent that we're basically re-paganizing, it could easily happen again. If the whims of adults (i.e. the powerful) are all that matter, it's only a matter of time.

Re-paganizing is very exaggerated way of looking at granting legal rights. In ancient worlds, there were many things that were starkly different about their democracy vs our current one. I think saying that ssm will lead to a pagan society is like saying that taking baths will lead turning into a dolphin. Society is not a linear line where all roads lead one direction unless turned. Society doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Slippery slopes, Dude. SSM was unthinkable before Andrew Sullivan started advocating for it in The New Republic in 1989. Yet now that cause is as good as won. Polyamory is next, but it won't be the last stop on our slide down.

That is simply not true, my friend. SSM wasn't an idea spawned in 1989. SSM were done in ancient Greek culture as well as ancient Mesopotamia, China and Egypt. SSM has been a topic for a very long time around the world. In 1901, a woman dressed as a man and using a male alias, married her girlfriend. Once the truth was discovered (and published in two newspapers) the women lost their jobs, were excommunicated, and had to flee the country in order to escape arrest. Despite all this their marriage was never annulled, making theirs the first recorded gay marriage in Spain’s history.

In 19-o-flipping-1.

I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see a linear connection between the different topics. We aren't going to start accepting murder because we allow MMA. Not everything in life is on a direct correlation to the extreme negative or positive. We can exist in a world where religious beliefs do not govern our people without moral decline.
 

Domina Nostra

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Sure, not arguing that at all...I'm even skeptical that the move from polygamy was based on revelation...and wasn't motivated by the desire for Utah to become a state. At a minimum, I'd say the LDS prophet at the time was, shall we say, ready to receive that revelation...

That said, I really don't care how or why it happened, just to point out for the sake of accuracy that there is a HUGE difference between the conduct of FLDS and the LDS folks you'd run into in Salt Lake City...I think sometimes the polygammy thing gets hung on the present day LDS folks, and it is as goofy to them as it is to you.

If your point is that its ridiculous to assume, say, Mitt Romney secretly approves of polygamy, I'd have to agree. :)
 

phgreek

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If your point is that its ridiculous to assume, say, Mitt Romney secretly approves of polygamy, I'd have to agree. :)

I heard he does.

The evidence... someone could trace the practice to one of his ancestors...

Ya know normal "sins of the Great Grand Father"...its all there.


nah, my point was present day LDS tend to get smeared with FLDS weirdness. On the specific issue of polygamy, LDS folks would have no more first hand understanding than you. When "mormon" and "polygamy" get thrown around, the difference between LDS and FLDS disappears. I try and point out the difference as a factual/accuracy/peeve thing.
 

RDU Irish

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Bunch of anti-polygamy bigots around here. Judge much, a-holes?

No italics, because I am better than you for being accepting of something you find repugnant for PC reasons.
 

woolybug25

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I heard he does.

The evidence... someone could trace the practice to one of his ancestors...

Ya know normal "sins of the Great Grand Father"...its all there.


nah, my point was present day LDS tend to get smeared with FLDS weirdness. On the specific issue of polygamy, LDS folks would have no more first hand understanding than you. When "mormon" and "polygamy" get thrown around, the difference between LDS and FLDS disappears. I try and point out the difference as a factual/accuracy/peeve thing.

This is simply not true. Many modern LDS members have family in either fundamentalist capacity or have direct decedents (ones they have met and interacted with) that participated in polygamy. So to say the average catholic has no more understanding than someone of the mormon faith is disingenuous. They are much more likely to have first hand knowledge of the subject. They also almost have to have more knowledge about the subject simply because it is a major topic of conversation with non mormons.

Let's also not act like the Mormon faith wouldn't be open to polygamy if it wasn't forbidden by the federal government. They didn't voluntarily choose to ban it, they were forced to do so if they wanted to legitimize their faith in modern America.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Children are people, but the entire argument of pro choice is that a fetus of a certain age is not an actual human being yet. It's not a child right vs adult right issue. It's based primarily in the fact that the fetus is not an actual human with rights yet. At least in theory.

It's not just about abortion. I'm including no-fault divorce, SSM, the coming polygamy debate, etc. Every single time such issues have come up over the past century, the desires of consenting adults have won out over the welfare of children. The strong over the weak.

The fact remains that the prevailing view is that an impressionable child does not have the ability to consent, as they do not understand the scope. I see what you are saying, but laws have always limited rights to age groups. For instance, drinking ages and military age minimums. There is an assumption, and a large one in my opinion, that for some reason ssm would not only evolve into degradation of western values but also disintegrate centuries of right limitations. I just don't see it.

To be clear, I don't think SSM is the cause of any of this. These are simply the inevitable fruits of certain deep-seated and inaccurate assumptions about human nature within liberal political philosophy. But yes, I'm very critical of modern sexual ethics, because "consent" is a very flimsy nail upon which to hang something as weighty as human sexuality. It simply won't hold it.

Animals do not have the same constitutional rights as humans, so there would never be a reason to grant them legal relationship status with a human being. The other end (no pun intended) is that there is very little way to prove consent with an animal. There are legal definitions to consent used in rape cases, but those would make zero sense in judging the consent of an animal. Furthermore, many of the same concepts around minors not understanding the scope of consent would also stand for animals.

We kill animals without their consent all the time. Isn't sexual intercourse with an animal less morally fraught than ending its life with finality? Again, I just don't see consent as much of legal bulwark here. It won't hold.

Re-paganizing is very exaggerated way of looking at granting legal rights. In ancient worlds, there were many things that were starkly different about their democracy vs our current one.

And democracy is no guarantee against injustice, as the Arab Spring demonstrated recently. It's undeniable that the West has been deChristianizing since the Enlightenment. So the question becomes: where are we headed? Progressives would argue that we're evolving inexorably into a more humane and just society, but I'd argue that we've just gotten better at hiding our injustice. Instead of exposing unwanted infants to the elements, we now simply murder them in utero; the death and destruction caused by our military-industrial complex has all been exported to foreign countries, etc.

As I mentioned above, my problem is not with SSM per se, but with its roots in liberal philosophy and the utterly inadequate sexual ethics that tradition has left us. SSM, at least of the sort we're seeing now, is a novel development, but you're correct that homosexual relationships were very common before Christianity. From that article I linked earlier:

In the Ancient world, it was simply taken for granted that sex was about power. The social order was defined by a hierarchy of concentric circles. At the center, the free, male, citizen, and then in concentric circles, women, freedmen, foreigners, children, and so on. The main paradigm for sex was not heterosexual/homosexual, married/unmarried, even reproductive/non-reproductive, it was active/passive or dominant/submissive, and the main taboo was for someone who was supposed to be “active” to be “passive”.

This is why sexual slavery (particularly of children) was not frowned upon, and neither was homosexuality as long as it involved an older man and a younger man so that it was clear that the relationship had an “active” and a “passive” participant. Heterosexual marriage was also perfectly understood, since women were of a lower social status than men.

It’s worth dwelling for a second on the world that these beliefs created. The practice of expositio, the exposing of infants, was widespread and unproblematic, since children were of lower status than adults. And the extant sources we have concur: the typical fate of exposed infants was either death or ‘adoption’ into slavery, which was typically sexual slavery since that was the most profitable use for a child. Brothels specializing in child sex slaves were established, legal businesses; the majority, it seems, specializing in boy sex slaves. Sources describe sex with castrated slaves as particularly exciting, and sources report that babies were sometimes castrated so that they could work in brothels later on. Pagan apologists roundly mocked the early Christians for not only not practicing expositio (an echo of which can be found in anti-Catholic Protestant polemics against teeming mackerel-snapping families) but rescuing exposed infants and adopting them.

That's what we're returning to. The Western world conflates technological progress (which actually occurs) with social progress (which happens slowly, if at all, and is always in danger of being lost, since humans are prone to sin). In other words, our worship of "progress" is little more than the worship of technology, which is just power over nature, others and ourselves. That's paganism.

We can exist in a world where religious beliefs do not govern our people without moral decline.

Humans are religious creatures by nature. When institutional religions decline, people find other things to worship. In this case, much of what you take for granted about the status quo (limited government, human rights, separation of church and state, religious freedom, etc.) were directly inherited from Christendom, and will not persist in the absence of a Christian moral framework.
 
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Domina Nostra

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In this case, much of what you take for granted about the status quo (limited government, human rights, separation of church and state, religious freedom, etc.) were directly inherited from Christendom, and will not persist in the absence of a Christian moral framework.

This is what I think too. Literally 98% of the founding generation were Protestant. There were very few Catholics, and even less atheists. They shared a common morality on almost every topic of practical concern (the biggest one they disagreed about, slavery, ended up causing a war, but they thought they got that sorted out in the Constitution). So when they used flowery rhetoric about separation of church and state,they could assume that what was being kept out were primarily doctrinal disputes, not religious morality.

Trying to uphold that same framework without those common moral assumptions rooted in Protestant Christianity is a horse of a different color. Where do human rights even come from? Why do un-grounded secular beliefs (i.e., human rights) or psuedo-scientific beliefs (whatever is natural is good) have a place in the public square, but not religious beliefs?
 
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DonnieNarco

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The incest argument destroys any good points that could be made. Just because some weirdo has sex with a horse doesn't mean it will be seen as anything other than animal cruelty by the large majority of people. Slippery slope is a fallacy and one used by anti-gay people often.
 

Domina Nostra

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The incest argument destroys any good points that could be made. Just because some weirdo has sex with a horse doesn't mean it will be seen as anything other than animal cruelty by the large majority of people. Slippery slope is a fallacy and one used by anti-gay people often.

Who cares what the large majority of people think. It's the judges that matter, remember. And here is an Australian judge opening the door to incest.

Australian judge says incest may no longer be a taboo - Telegraph

And don't you think that you could have been making that same argument with regard to homosexuality 50 years ago-- that's the point of the slippery slope argument:

Someone might argue something like: "Pornography leads to homosexuality"
And someone would respond: "The [homosexuality] argument destroys any good points that could be made. Just because some weirdo has sex with [another man] doesn't mean it will be seen as anything other than [perversity] by the large majority of people. Slippery slope is a fallacy and one used by anti-[speech] people often."

Its like all the people laughing at prudes who see something offensive on TV, "That is what people said about Elvis." Well, like it or not, Elvis was at the front of a cultural/sexual revolution.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The incest argument destroys any good points that could be made.

Then enlighten me. How do modern sexual ethics, based as they are solely on consent, uphold the traditional taboo against incest?

Just because some weirdo has sex with a horse doesn't mean it will be seen as anything other than animal cruelty by the large majority of people.

A mainstream magazine wrote a sympathetic piece about said weirdo. Such an article could never have been published just a few decades back. That's an indication that our cultural views regarding human sexuality have changed significantly in a very short amount of time.

And less than a decade ago, a strong majority of Americans opposed SSM. Even Obama professed to oppose it during his first campaign. So appeals to the wisdom of the majority don't hold much weight here. The ideology underpinning our culture is heading in a very obvious direction, and public opinion can be expected to get swept along with it. If you're not comfortable with some of the scenarios I've outlined, ask yourself what is going to stop them from coming to pass? A flimsy sexual ethics based solely on consent isn't going to do it, for the reasons I've outlined above. Nor is flippantly stating that "It'll never happen." These things are all on the same trajectory.

Slippery slope is a fallacy and one used by anti-gay people often.

Enough with the ad hominem. As I explained to wooly, this isn't about SSM alarmism or animus toward the LGBT community. My issue is with where political liberalism and modern sexual ethics are taking us as a society; not with SSM per se. Put another way, by trying to dismiss my arguments as "anti-gay", you're engaging in shallow identity politics. My beef is not with anyone's identity, but with your identity politics. That sort of radical individualism is going to lead us to ruin.
 
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Domina Nostra

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Does that include his right to willingly break the law by defying a federal ruling?

I don't have a problem with gay marriage. I don't have a problem with people who oppose gay marriage. I do have a problem with people breaking the law.

Thought this was relevant. From Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861:

"I do not forget the position assumed by some that constitutional questions are to be decided by the Supreme Court, nor do I deny that such decisions must be binding in any case upon the parties to a suit as to the object of that suit, while they are also entitled to very high respect and consideration in all parallel cases by all other departments of the Government. And while it is obviously possible that such decision may be erroneous in any given case, still the evil effect following it, being limited to that particular case, with the chance that it may be overruled and never become a precedent for other cases, can better be borne than could the evils of a different practice. At the same time, the candid citizen must confess that if the policy of the Government upon vital questions affecting the whole people is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court, the instant they are made in ordinary litigation between parties in personal actions the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned their Government into the hands of that eminent tribunal. Nor is there in this view any assault upon the court or the judges. It is a duty from which they may not shrink to decide cases properly brought before them, and it is no fault of theirs if others seek to turn their decisions to political purposes."
 

phgreek

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This is simply not true. Many modern LDS members have family in either fundamentalist capacity or have direct decedents (ones they have met and interacted with) that participated in polygamy.


I don't know how "MANY" could be possible...but at least lets put some context to "MANY".

There are ~20K FLDS in Utah/Arizona/Nevada, and about 2M+ LDS in Utah/Arizona/Nevada. Even if every single FLDS person had a an active familial relationship with an LDS person or two right now...the MAXIMUM you could experience is 1-2% of the LDS population.

We know FLDS live in isolation for the most part, and have since about 1900, so reality is there may be nearly no familial ties between LDS and FLDS that are less than 2 or 3 generations apart. Odds are 3 because only about 10% of the LDS population in Utah/Arizona/Nevada is over the age of 65. And no, LDS and FLDS don't hang out at Picnics together and talk about "the good ole days".

Further, the base polygamist population when the practice was ended (Circ. 1890-1904) and FLDS and LDS parted, was about 25K, and there were 200K+ Mormons...ie 10-15% of Mormons were polygamists when the practice was ended (and FYI...the practice existed as sanctioned for 25 years...one generation).

Since the split, FLDS Polygamist population sustainment was largely organic, with some addition of wayward women...not necessarily LDS.

You can claim some familial ties based on a few FLDS excommunications and escapees who then later became LDS, and yea they have family still in FLDS communities...that number is small, but well known, as they write books and talk about the FLDS experience.

Based on what I know there are rarely any defections going the other way (LDS to FLDS) but I can't find numbers that address that specifically.

I just don't think you can say "Many", and when you acknowledge that, then you have to accept that most LDS don't have first hand knowledge/experience of polygamy.

So to say the average catholic has no more understanding than someone of the Mormon faith is disingenuous. They are much more likely to have first hand knowledge of the subject. They also almost have to have more knowledge about the subject simply because it is a major topic of conversation with non Mormons.

I see what you are saying. I agree that the common LDS person, by virtue of polygamy being in their faith's history would know more. I was kinda exaggerating in earlier posts, to make a point...but my experience and the numbers make me pretty confident the VAST majority of Mormons in Utah have no tie they are aware of to polygamy, and find it offensive...ie if you walked up to 100 LDS folks in Salt Lake City, they'd all know about polygamy, but only a small percentage would be able to tell you the name of a relative living or dead who was/is a participant, and all would generally frown on the practice.

Let's also not act like the Mormon faith wouldn't be open to polygamy if it wasn't forbidden by the federal government. They didn't voluntarily choose to ban it, they were forced to do so if they wanted to legitimize their faith in modern America.

No one was acting like that...I think that was clear in my earlier posts, and I didn't really see anyone else chime in to that effect either.
 

RDU Irish

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So its perfectly OK to have so many sexual partners you need a DNA test to figure out the father. Or to have eight kids from eight different fathers (conversely 8 kids with eight different mothers). That is fine, no recourse from government. In fact we should support these people and give them all kinds of welfare benefits because they obviously need help and we should be compassionate.

But if you try to marry all eight baby daddies or baby mommas you are breaking the law and should be locked up. How dare you take moral and financial responsibility for raising all of your kids because your "unconventional" lifestyle is so much worse than raising them in a single parent home in a state of poverty.

Makes perfect sense.


My thoughts aren't as well researched and expressed as Wooly and Whiskey but I have to say government's involvement in marriage should be primarily motivated with building a strong family unit as the cornerstone to our society. In the traditional sense, procreation is the reason this unit is so important in passing on family values. Since SSM cannot naturally procreate, it runs counter to the most basic function of government's interest in marriage.

Without children involved, I don't much care what people do in their "marriage". The stakes are drastically different, fully financial in nature as far as I can decipher. Just as prenup can void the property claims associated with marriage, people could just as easily contract to commit themselves to each other financially.

Social Security - spousal benefits would have to be seriously adjusted.

Estate Tax - spousal ability to inherit unlimited sums creates a problem for a small percentage of folks. My solution - everyone pays a 5% tax on anything over $100K. Step up in basis is maintained and spouses pay the tax too.
 

MartyIrish

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The incest argument destroys any good points that could be made. Just because some weirdo has sex with a horse doesn't mean it will be seen as anything other than animal cruelty by the large majority of people. Slippery slope is a fallacy and one used by anti-gay people often.

Except that you're wrong and it's already started.....This is a real website



B4U-ACT
 

MartyIrish

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So its perfectly OK to have so many sexual partners you need a DNA test to figure out the father. Or to have eight kids from eight different fathers (conversely 8 kids with eight different mothers). That is fine, no recourse from government. In fact we should support these people and give them all kinds of welfare benefits because they obviously need help and we should be compassionate.

But if you try to marry all eight baby daddies or baby mommas you are breaking the law and should be locked up. How dare you take moral and financial responsibility for raising all of your kids because your "unconventional" lifestyle is so much worse than raising them in a single parent home in a state of poverty.

Makes perfect sense.


My thoughts aren't as well researched and expressed as Wooly and Whiskey but I have to say government's involvement in marriage should be primarily motivated with building a strong family unit as the cornerstone to our society. In the traditional sense, procreation is the reason this unit is so important in passing on family values. Since SSM cannot naturally procreate, it runs counter to the most basic function of government's interest in marriage.

Without children involved, I don't much care what people do in their "marriage". The stakes are drastically different, fully financial in nature as far as I can decipher. Just as prenup can void the property claims associated with marriage, people could just as easily contract to commit themselves to each other financially.

Social Security - spousal benefits would have to be seriously adjusted.

Estate Tax - spousal ability to inherit unlimited sums creates a problem for a small percentage of folks. My solution - everyone pays a 5% tax on anything over $100K. Step up in basis is maintained and spouses pay the tax too.

I agree with most of your points....Except the Estate tax.

Why should money that has already been taxed, get taxed again when transferring it over to my spouse?
 

Corry

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Enough with the ad hominem. As I explained to wooly, this isn't about SSM alarmism or animus toward the LGBT community. My issue is with where political liberalism and modern sexual ethics are taking us as a society; not with SSM per se. Put another way, by trying to dismiss my arguments as "anti-gay", you're engaging in shallow identity politics. My beef is not with anyone's identity, but with your identity politics. That sort of radical individualism is going to lead us to ruin.


I just don't see it. The same argument could be made for any change to a law. IE we can't raise the speed limit to 75 MPH because then people will just drive 85 and we'll have to raise the speed limit again. Before you know there is no speed limit. The fear of what might happen down the road should not be a hindrance for doing (what I feel is) a good thing. You may be right, as you normally are, but I just don't think we're 20 years away from bare backing goats.
 

Whiskeyjack

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So its perfectly OK to have so many sexual partners you need a DNA test to figure out the father. Or to have eight kids from eight different fathers (conversely 8 kids with eight different mothers). That is fine, no recourse from government. In fact we should support these people and give them all kinds of welfare benefits because they obviously need help and we should be compassionate.

But if you try to marry all eight baby daddies or baby mommas you are breaking the law and should be locked up. How dare you take moral and financial responsibility for raising all of your kids because your "unconventional" lifestyle is so much worse than raising them in a single parent home in a state of poverty.

Makes perfect sense.

Polyamory is next on the list of current sexual taboos up for cultural normalization, so you won't have to wait long for your preferred resolution. But are you comfortable with tossing the taboos that are going to get normalized after that? As I argued above, modern sexual ethics can't really justify continuing the taboos against incest and beastiality. If you have no problem with that, and feel like everything should be fair game, then this probably looks like progress to you.

My thoughts aren't as well researched and expressed as Wooly and Whiskey but I have to say government's involvement in marriage should be primarily motivated with building a strong family unit as the cornerstone to our society. In the traditional sense, procreation is the reason this unit is so important in passing on family values. Since SSM cannot naturally procreate, it runs counter to the most basic function of government's interest in marriage.

That's exactly right. The State became involved in marriage because it has a compelling interest in promoting a stable environment for the raising of children. Traditional marriage provided that. But marriage ceased being about child-rearing long ago, as indicated by the legislation of contraception and no-fault divorce. Now it's primarily about the sharing of property rights between couples; and there's no compelling reason for the State to be heavily involved in such arrangements. But Social Justice Warriors have found it to be to a powerful wedge issue for forcing cultural change, so I doubt the libertarian argument for "Getting Government Out of Marriage" will find much purchase.

Without children involved, I don't much care what people do in their "marriage". The stakes are drastically different, fully financial in nature as far as I can decipher. Just as prenup can void the property claims associated with marriage, people could just as easily contract to commit themselves to each other financially.

Of course. But it's apparently more convenient to radically redefine a core social institution for the benefit of certain minorities than to simply provide them with alternative means of achieving the same legal rights. SSM isn't about "rights" so much as it's about destroying taboos.

I just don't see it. The same argument could be made for any change to a law. IE we can't raise the speed limit to 75 MPH because then people will just drive 85 and we'll have to raise the speed limit again. Before you know there is no speed limit. The fear of what might happen down the road should not be a hindrance for doing (what I feel is) a good thing. You may be right, as you normally are, but I just don't think we're 20 years away from bare backing goats.

Did you see the articles I linked above? There are now people vigorously advocating for polyamory, incest and even beastiality using the exact same arguments that supported SSM. And that's not to imply that SSM is the originating cause (or the start of the "slippery slope"), but one of many inevitable outcomes flowing from the reduction of marriage down to nothing more than a bundle of property rights.

I agree that we're not 20 years away from wide-spread incest and beastiality (though polyamory is coming on strong), but the speed with which we've discarded long-standing sexual taboos is telling. As a culture, we're not far off from believing that as long as it's between "consenting adults" (and both of those terms are always up for reinterpretation), it's good. Are you comfortable with that?
 
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