SoDakDomer
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Agreed, but the anwser isn't to take your ball and go home.
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Agreed, but the anwser isn't to take your ball and go home.
phgreek
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...Chemotherapy
B
Buster Bluth
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The criticisms to the Tea Party are that their answers to the (huge) problems are just asinine. It's a convoluted mess of mob rule and sneaky corporate backers. Mob rule in that there are legitimate feelings from the right but mostly turned into ignorant anger and sneaky corporate backers who want to use that engine to power bills that favor big business interests, i.e. get rid of regulations they don't like and change the tax structure to their liking.
I don't trust the Tea Party, just as I don't trust the Democrats or Republicans. I do admire the enthusiasm though.
GoIrish41
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B
Buster Bluth
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Chemotherapy when chemotherapy isn't necessary is pretty damn insane, wouldn't you think?
Logically speaking, I'm more inclined--and as someone who was against Obamacare all along--to side with the crew who are saying that hidden agendas/corporates are pulling out all of the stops now because they just don't want it initiated. I detest the federal government and big business, which is all this is I've assumed, but if the GOP and Co were truly convinced it's a huge failure about to implode...something tells me they'd normally love to see that happen so they can bathe in the political points and crush the Democrats in the following election cycles.
Something is awfully sneaky about this GOP stance, I'll say that much. It sorta looks like the interests are afraid of it working and ruining the status quo. But then again, the status quo wrote the damn thing to favor them. It's just a weird situation, I can't put my finger on it.
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phgreek
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GoIrish41
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Good post Buster.
irishpat183
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But at the same time, you have Obama picking an choosing as to what parts he want's to start and at what time.
It makes no sense.
And you're right on the money..this wasn't written by the "people". And they will soon find that out. That's why I was in favor of tweeks...but not a government overhaul. Because it's not about offering affordable health care for all. It was about control.
Oh, I just had a conference in Austin yesterday about the impact of the ACA on Medicare and seniors....LOL. They still get denied for pre-existing if they try and switch.
And the exchanges are a nightmare to deal with.
Ndaccountant
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I understand your concerns with their position.
But let me ask you this. Assume it was a huge flop, what happens next?
It would be a huge mess to scrap it and start over, so that wouldn't happen. The only two logical steps would be to make incremental changes, which may or may not resolve the issues, or go single payer. From a conservative POV, neither is appetizing.
I can't blame either party here, in all honesty. I think both are acting like buttheads and have been for quite some time. The Democrats, who I suspect want single payer and know this will be a bust in the long run and lead to single payer, won't scrap their crown jewel of the last 25 years. Republicans see this as a massive intrusion on the marketplace and see the end game of this being a massive gov't program. Plus, they feel that such a massive legislation should have had at least some level of bi-partisan support, which it didn't. D's plugging their ears and not listening under the veil of "we won an election" is really only appeasing the part of the country that voted for them. R's holding everything up is serving only the interest of their base as well.
What is the most frustrating is that we are one country and major changes over the last 50 years have always had back and forth between both parties, but neither side walked away feeling like they lost. Now, we have divisive leaders in Washington that don't care about the collective nation and want to make sure the other side feels like they not only lost, but got castrated along the way.
It's childish and it is ruining this country.
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B
Buster Bluth
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I agree with all of this...but then why try to stop it? It's not like the Republicans really give a **** about helping us out. It's all for political points, so are they insane enough to think Obama will cave on Obamacare when it's making the GOP look like ****? I have a hard time buying that, and so what's the reason? It's just a weird situation right now. Why not let it fail miserably and be the white knight coming to save the day in 2016? Their moves defy classic Washington logic, unless they're afraid it'll work and be a success for Democrats...
irishpat183
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This sums it up:
Obamacare's First Victims: 'I Was Laughing at Boehner -- Until the Mail Came Today' | The Libertarian Republic
The ACA was passed on a lie.
Obamacare's First Victims: 'I Was Laughing at Boehner -- Until the Mail Came Today' | The Libertarian Republic
The ACA was passed on a lie.
SoDakDomer
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a quote from the libertarian republic, we might as well get a counterpoint from msnbc.
phgreek
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...Chemotherapy, while targeted at a specific malady, hurts a number of systems...unintended consequences. Unintended consequences you believe will heal once the Cancer is killed.
If the timing is bad...yea well the only good time to use Chemotherapy would be on a healthy body...and yea, that'd be insane. Are you saying you think our fiscal house is in the prime of health?
The simple fact of the matter is, both sides are willing to impose unintended consequences on people...given the way DC works...that's what we have to choose from. So it seems to me its easier to understand those consequences on the road to good health.
Edit: Also, I would expect the GOP to act as you stated...but I don't think the GOP particularly likes the Tea party as it impacts them taking the stance you suggest. I think they have little choice, and at least this way they can blame the Tea Party too, and go back to business as usual...or so they think.
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Black Irish
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My take on why the GOP is fighting this and losing the battle of public opinion, rather then stepping back and watching the Dems burn themselves on Obamacare is that politicians always have to be doing something. They are like that guy at work who is always making pointless adjustments to things just so that he feels like he is accomplishing something. It doesn't matter if anything useful is being accomplished, at least some action is taking place. It just doesn't seem to register to politicians that sometimes they can accomplish more by just stepping back and letting the other side slip on the banana peel on front of everyone.
NDFANnSouthWest
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Interesting post...see your point.
GoIrish41
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Or they fear that the banana peel isn't there at all, and all their obstuctionist efforts over the past years will be exposed for what they are ... a fraud. The republicans enjoy a majority in the house that is held together by a fragile coalition. That coalition includes the vocal Tea Party members who are willing to push the country to the brink to try to inflict minority rule to get their way. IMO Boener understands this and knows without the Tea Party representative, his majority in the House is meaningless. That is why he is allowing them to lead him around by the short hairs. Eventually, he will cave and a clean CR will be brought to the floor along with short-term increase of the debt ceiling and both will pass. I predict this will happen on Oct. 15 or 16, just before we are unable to pay our bills on time. Maybe Obama will agree to a commission to have the conversation that Boener keeps wanting to have (even though he didn't want to have it six months ago) to look at entitlements, taxes, and the lot. That commission, will certainly accomplish nothing, because both sides are dug in. What does the GOP gain from this? As the overwhelming recipients of blame, the republican brand is damaged -- perhaps enough to lose the House next year. If that happens, the Dems will jam more legislation through that will make the GOP go crazy -- immagration reform, gun control legislation (essentially all the laws they blocked over the past few years). By being a party of "strong conviction" they are strengthening their opponents and they will be forced to sleep in the uncomfortable bed they have made for themselves.
95NDAlumNM
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What is the Tea Party against? government...especially Big Government. What did the shutdown do? Shut down the biggest government...The US Federal Government. What would not raising the debt ceiling do? Destroy the credibility of the US Federal Government, bring down other governments, return us all to those glory days of the late 1700's. Yeah for right wing wackos.
Irish Houstonian
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It's a bit of a strawman to say the "Tea Party" (as undefinable as that is) is against all "government". That's like saying Brian Kelly is against all power running plays. I think they both would just prefer to limit its scope in favor of different strategies.
potownhero
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Not exactly. The Tea Party people are for the principles espoused in the founding documents. So, they're not against government per se, just against government over-reach beyond its defined roles within said documents.
Additionally, to Buster, they're for individual rights, not for the corporatism. The corporate cronies that reside in both the D and R political party establishment dislikes this - for example, just look at their position on immigration - corporations want cheap labor even though there are plenty of people in the US that are out of work.
connor_in
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It is so nice to see that you are so concerned about the future of the republican party! I always love this whenever I see this kind of thing especially on a network like MSNBC. You have a group of D's sitting around sounding so concerned for the R's future. You would think they would be more like "you go for it guys...can't wait til the next election as we'll be in power for 1000 years! Later Suckers!"
NDFan4Life
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So... this is what it's come to:
October 8, 2013
'Gestapo' tactics meet senior citizens at Yellowstone
John Macone
The Daily News of Newburyport Tue Oct 08, 2013, 10:13 AM EDT
NEWBURYPORT — Pat Vaillancourt went on a trip last week that was intended to showcase some of America’s greatest treasures.
Instead, the Salisbury resident said she and others on her tour bus witnessed an ugly spectacle that made her embarrassed, angry and heartbroken for her country.
Vaillancourt was one of thousands of people who found themselves in a national park as the federal government shutdown went into effect on Oct. 1. For many hours her tour group, which included senior citizen visitors from Japan, Australia, Canada and the United States, were locked in a Yellowstone National Park hotel under armed guard.
The tourists were treated harshly by armed park employees, she said, so much so that some of the foreign tourists with limited English skills thought they were under arrest.
When finally allowed to leave, the bus was not allowed to halt at all along the 2.5-hour trip out of the park, not even to stop at private bathrooms that were open along the route.
“We’ve become a country of fear, guns and control,” said Vaillancourt, who grew up in Lawrence. “It was like they brought out the armed forces. Nobody was saying, ‘we’re sorry,’ it was all like — ” as she clenched her fist and banged it against her forearm.
Vaillancourt took part in a nine-day tour of western parks and sites along with about four dozen senior citizen tourists. One of the highlights of the tour was to be Yellowstone, where they arrived just as the shutdown went into effect.
Rangers systematically sent visitors out of the park, though some groups that had hotel reservations — such as Vaillancourt’s — were allowed to stay for two days. Those two days started out on a sour note, she said.
The bus stopped along a road when a large herd of bison passed nearby, and seniors filed out to take photos. Almost immediately, an armed ranger came by and ordered them to get back in, saying they couldn’t “recreate.” The tour guide, who had paid a $300 fee the day before to bring the group into the park, argued that the seniors weren’t “recreating,” just taking photos.
“She responded and said, ‘Sir, you are recreating,’ and her tone became very aggressive,” Vaillancourt said.
The seniors quickly filed back onboard and the bus went to the Old Faithful Inn, the park’s premier lodge located adjacent to the park’s most famous site, Old Faithful geyser. That was as close as they could get to the famous site — barricades were erected around Old Faithful, and the seniors were locked inside the hotel, where armed rangers stayed at the door.
“They looked like Hulk Hogans, armed. They told us you can’t go outside,” she said. “Some of the Asians who were on the tour said, ‘Oh my God, are we under arrest?’ They felt like they were criminals.”
By Oct. 3 the park, which sees an average of 4,500 visitors a day, was nearly empty. The remaining hotel visitors were required to leave.
As the bus made its 2.5-hour journey out of Yellowstone, the tour guide made arrangements to stop at a full-service bathroom at an in-park dude ranch he had done business with in the past. Though the bus had its own small bathroom, Vaillancourt said seniors were looking for a more comfortable place to stop. But no stop was made — Vaillancourt said the dude ranch had been warned that its license to operate would be revoked if it allowed the bus to stop. So the bus continued on to Livingston, Mont., a gateway city to the park.
The bus trip made headlines in Livingston, where the local newspaper Livingston Enterprise interviewed the tour guide, Gordon Hodgson, who accused the park service of “Gestapo tactics.”
“The national parks belong to the people,” he told the Enterprise. “This isn’t right.”
Calls to Yellowstone’s communications office were not returned, as most of the personnel have been furloughed.
Many of the foreign visitors were shocked and dismayed by what had happened and how they were treated, Vaillancourt said.
“A lot of people who were foreign said they wouldn’t come back (to America),” she said.
The National Parks’ aggressive actions have spawned significant criticism in western states. Governors in park-rich states such as Arizona have been thwarted in their efforts to fund partial reopenings of parks. The Washington Times quoted an unnamed Park Service official who said park law enforcement personnel were instructed to “make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”
The experience brought up many feelings in Vaillancourt. What struck her most was a widely circulated story about a group of World War II veterans who were on a trip to Washington, D.C., to see the World War II memorial when the shutdown began. The memorial was barricaded and guards were posted, but the vets pushed their way in.
That reminded her of her father, a World War II veteran who spent three years in a Japanese prisoner of war camp.
“My father took a lot of crap from the Japanese,” she recalled, her eyes welling with tears. “Every day they made him bow to the Japanese flag. But he stood up to them.
“He always said to stand up for what you believe in, and don’t let them push you around,” she said, adding she was sad to see “fear, guns and control” turned on citizens in her own country.
'Gestapo' tactics meet senior citizens at Yellowstone » Local News » NewburyportNews.com, Newburyport, MA
October 8, 2013
'Gestapo' tactics meet senior citizens at Yellowstone
John Macone
The Daily News of Newburyport Tue Oct 08, 2013, 10:13 AM EDT
NEWBURYPORT — Pat Vaillancourt went on a trip last week that was intended to showcase some of America’s greatest treasures.
Instead, the Salisbury resident said she and others on her tour bus witnessed an ugly spectacle that made her embarrassed, angry and heartbroken for her country.
Vaillancourt was one of thousands of people who found themselves in a national park as the federal government shutdown went into effect on Oct. 1. For many hours her tour group, which included senior citizen visitors from Japan, Australia, Canada and the United States, were locked in a Yellowstone National Park hotel under armed guard.
The tourists were treated harshly by armed park employees, she said, so much so that some of the foreign tourists with limited English skills thought they were under arrest.
When finally allowed to leave, the bus was not allowed to halt at all along the 2.5-hour trip out of the park, not even to stop at private bathrooms that were open along the route.
“We’ve become a country of fear, guns and control,” said Vaillancourt, who grew up in Lawrence. “It was like they brought out the armed forces. Nobody was saying, ‘we’re sorry,’ it was all like — ” as she clenched her fist and banged it against her forearm.
Vaillancourt took part in a nine-day tour of western parks and sites along with about four dozen senior citizen tourists. One of the highlights of the tour was to be Yellowstone, where they arrived just as the shutdown went into effect.
Rangers systematically sent visitors out of the park, though some groups that had hotel reservations — such as Vaillancourt’s — were allowed to stay for two days. Those two days started out on a sour note, she said.
The bus stopped along a road when a large herd of bison passed nearby, and seniors filed out to take photos. Almost immediately, an armed ranger came by and ordered them to get back in, saying they couldn’t “recreate.” The tour guide, who had paid a $300 fee the day before to bring the group into the park, argued that the seniors weren’t “recreating,” just taking photos.
“She responded and said, ‘Sir, you are recreating,’ and her tone became very aggressive,” Vaillancourt said.
The seniors quickly filed back onboard and the bus went to the Old Faithful Inn, the park’s premier lodge located adjacent to the park’s most famous site, Old Faithful geyser. That was as close as they could get to the famous site — barricades were erected around Old Faithful, and the seniors were locked inside the hotel, where armed rangers stayed at the door.
“They looked like Hulk Hogans, armed. They told us you can’t go outside,” she said. “Some of the Asians who were on the tour said, ‘Oh my God, are we under arrest?’ They felt like they were criminals.”
By Oct. 3 the park, which sees an average of 4,500 visitors a day, was nearly empty. The remaining hotel visitors were required to leave.
As the bus made its 2.5-hour journey out of Yellowstone, the tour guide made arrangements to stop at a full-service bathroom at an in-park dude ranch he had done business with in the past. Though the bus had its own small bathroom, Vaillancourt said seniors were looking for a more comfortable place to stop. But no stop was made — Vaillancourt said the dude ranch had been warned that its license to operate would be revoked if it allowed the bus to stop. So the bus continued on to Livingston, Mont., a gateway city to the park.
The bus trip made headlines in Livingston, where the local newspaper Livingston Enterprise interviewed the tour guide, Gordon Hodgson, who accused the park service of “Gestapo tactics.”
“The national parks belong to the people,” he told the Enterprise. “This isn’t right.”
Calls to Yellowstone’s communications office were not returned, as most of the personnel have been furloughed.
Many of the foreign visitors were shocked and dismayed by what had happened and how they were treated, Vaillancourt said.
“A lot of people who were foreign said they wouldn’t come back (to America),” she said.
The National Parks’ aggressive actions have spawned significant criticism in western states. Governors in park-rich states such as Arizona have been thwarted in their efforts to fund partial reopenings of parks. The Washington Times quoted an unnamed Park Service official who said park law enforcement personnel were instructed to “make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”
The experience brought up many feelings in Vaillancourt. What struck her most was a widely circulated story about a group of World War II veterans who were on a trip to Washington, D.C., to see the World War II memorial when the shutdown began. The memorial was barricaded and guards were posted, but the vets pushed their way in.
That reminded her of her father, a World War II veteran who spent three years in a Japanese prisoner of war camp.
“My father took a lot of crap from the Japanese,” she recalled, her eyes welling with tears. “Every day they made him bow to the Japanese flag. But he stood up to them.
“He always said to stand up for what you believe in, and don’t let them push you around,” she said, adding she was sad to see “fear, guns and control” turned on citizens in her own country.
'Gestapo' tactics meet senior citizens at Yellowstone » Local News » NewburyportNews.com, Newburyport, MA
Domina Nostra
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I think it is funny that the Republicans are now fighting an inidvidual mandate, though it was basically their idea in 1993:
Republicans Spurn Once-Favored Health Mandate : NPR
It's also funny that in 2006 President Obama opposed the efforts to increase the debt ceiling because "leadership" required his opposing a policy that weakened us at home and abroad and passed our debt on to our children and grandchildren.
Obama 2006 vs. Obama January 2011 vs. Obama April 2011 on the Debt Ceiling - ABC News
You really have to follow these things closely to sift out the rhetoric and the substance. It's like saying you are either "for" regulation or "against" regulation. Everyone is for some regulation. Everyone is against bad regulations.
Republicans Spurn Once-Favored Health Mandate : NPR
It's also funny that in 2006 President Obama opposed the efforts to increase the debt ceiling because "leadership" required his opposing a policy that weakened us at home and abroad and passed our debt on to our children and grandchildren.
Obama 2006 vs. Obama January 2011 vs. Obama April 2011 on the Debt Ceiling - ABC News
You really have to follow these things closely to sift out the rhetoric and the substance. It's like saying you are either "for" regulation or "against" regulation. Everyone is for some regulation. Everyone is against bad regulations.
95NDAlumNM
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Oh, they are definitely limiting the scope. Will be limiting it even more after October 17th. Bunch of BS.
95NDAlumNM
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Exactly. 1700s here we come because everything was right in the world back then. What a joke.
irishpat183
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That would be FOX.
Neither FOX nor MSNBC gives a damn about the people or personal liberty.
irishpat183
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Then they will lose the public. Nobody want's gun legislation. Wildly unpopular.
irishpat183
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A joke is thinking that anythign different from our current system is automatically bad or dangerous. Our current system is a joke.
And it's the reason we're in this mess...not the Tea Party.
That, is a joke.
irishpat183
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WAAAAAAAA!!! Government has shut down!
Big Brother can't provide for the zero liablity voters!!!! WAAAAAA
Dude, how has this affected your life? Do you REALLY think the world is coming to an end?
Guess all those crazy preppers were on to something...LOL
95NDAlumNM
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Great points Irishpat as always. You always know the right thing to say.
irishpat183
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