Politics

[95NDAlumNM]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Notre Dame will begin admitting undocumented students and meet their full demonstrated financial need. This is what it means to be Catholic.</p>— Jordan Schank (@jschank) <a href="https://twitter.com/jschank/statuses/370279332515557376">August 21, 2013</a></blockquote>
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[ACamp1900]

Sweden.
Norway.
Denmark.

Evidence sucks huh?

You typing three random countries is evidence... gotcha...

tell you what, I'll pop on the airfair and we'll send you there... one way only.

 

[autry_denson]

You typing three random countries is evidence... gotcha...

tell you what, I'll pop on the airfair and we'll send you there... one way only.

Telling you something you don't like to hear makes you want to deport me, huh? You're a true patriot. Anyway, I'm happy here, but thanks.

Do some reading though, seriously: Persistence, Privilege, and Parenting: The Comparative Study of Intergenerational Mobility: Timothy Smeeding, Robert Erikson, Markus Jntti: 9780871540317: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Wild Bill]

Telling you something you don't like to hear makes you want to deport me, huh? You're a true patriot. Anyway, I'm happy here, but thanks.

Do some reading though, seriously: Persistence, Privilege, and Parenting: The Comparative Study of Intergenerational Mobility: Timothy Smeeding, Robert Erikson, Markus Jntti: 9780871540317: Amazon.com: Books

To hell with their mobility, I wouldn't want 70% of my income seized for the benefit of the people either.

 

[ACamp1900]

Telling you something you don't like to hear makes you want to deport me, huh? You're a true patriot. Anyway, I'm happy here, but thanks.

Do some reading though, seriously: Persistence, Privilege, and Parenting: The Comparative Study of Intergenerational Mobility: Timothy Smeeding, Robert Erikson, Markus Jntti: 9780871540317: Amazon.com: Books

Ignoring my question entirely and being condescending while doing so makes me want to deport you. How about you do some reading as to what I am asking saying....

I am not asking about pure comparative mobility... and even that is a flawed study as every nation (especially those from completely different continents) have drastically different dynamics… but that has never been my fight in this thread anyway, so I’ll leave it alone from there.

I am saying most any country that pays their highly trained, diligent professionals less than what a person could make sitting on their backside eating Cheetos is going to see that dynamic impact their mobility numbers as the lower classes are not going to be incentivized properly enough to be mobile. It’s willfully ignorant to imply otherwise in my opinion. Contrary to your condescending attitude to anyone who thinks differently from you in this thread, you've shown NOTHING to that point.

 

[autry_denson]

by the way: does everybody on the far right hang out in this thread in order to imagine yourselves living in a magical world where Romney won 52% of the vote?

 

[Anchorman]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Notre Dame will begin admitting undocumented students and meet their full demonstrated financial need. This is what it means to be Catholic.</p>— Jordan Schank (@jschank) <a href="https://twitter.com/jschank/statuses/370279332515557376">August 21, 2013</a></blockquote>
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No surprise.

Good for Jenkins.

 

[autry_denson]

I am saying most any country that pays their highly trained, diligent professionals less than what a person could make sitting on their backside eating Cheetos...

I tend to ignore stuff that doesn't merit a response.

 

[ACamp1900]

and... buh bye.

 

[irishpat183]

by the way: does everybody on the far right hang out in this thread in order to imagine yourselves living in a magical world where Romney won 52% of the vote?

Obama is really no different. I voted for Gary Johnson anyway.


And do the far left do nothing but live in the magical world of pie charts and graphs and "social science" and think that explains everything?

 

[irishpat183]

No surprise.

Good for Jenkins.

As opposed to an American citizen that needs the help first? I disagree.

 

[autry_denson]

Obama is really no different. I voted for Gary Johnson anyway.


And do the far left do nothing but live in the magical world of pie charts and graphs and "social science" and think that explains everything?

I love the quotes around "social science."

 

[95NDAlumNM]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>The measure of the greatness of a society is found in the way it treats those most in need, those who have nothing apart from their poverty.</p>— Pope Francis (@Pontifex) <a href="https://twitter.com/Pontifex/statuses/360526274390786049">July 25, 2013</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>We pray for a heart which will embrace immigrants. God will judge us upon how we have treated the most needy.</p>— Pope Francis (@Pontifex) <a href="https://twitter.com/Pontifex/statuses/354180232221171712">July 8, 2013</a></blockquote>
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[IrishJayhawk]

Obama is really no different. I voted for Gary Johnson anyway.


And do the far left do nothing but live in the magical world of pie charts and graphs and "social science" and think that explains everything?

Anecdote is powerful. And "social science" can sometimes demonstrate that the population as a whole displays a different reality.

 

[ACamp1900]

As opposed to an American citizen that needs the help first? I disagree.

I have no problem with anyone from other countries, legal or not attending school here... I do have some issue with them receiving funds at a higher priority over American citizens if those funds are publicly sourced... besides, those from other countries have more opportunity in their home nations to begin with, why should they have it here as well?

Anecdote is powerful. And "social science" can sometimes demonstrate that the population as a whole displays a different reality.

Both have their merits I would say... in fact any kind of evidence built upon others strengthens most any observation/finding... the more perspective the better.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Both have their merits I would say... in fact any kind of evidence built upon others strengthens most any observation/finding... the more perspective the better.

But anecdote is often deceiving. It's like cable news...we often seek out what backs their pre-conceived notions. When we experience something, we frequently dismiss the thing that doesn't back what we already think.

We also create associations that don't necessarily have any bearing in reality (e.g., blood letting, wearing the same Irish hat on game day...okay, I do that one). That's why research is so powerful. While it doesn't "prove" anything (research really can't prove anything), it can very powerfully discredit or back up anecdote.

Anecdote, in my opinion, gives us topics that should be researched.

 

[ACamp1900]

But anecdote is often deceiving. It's like cable news...we often seek out what backs their pre-conceived notions. When we experience something, we frequently dismiss the thing that doesn't back what we already think.

We also create associations that don't necessarily have any bearing in reality (e.g., blood letting, wearing the same Irish hat on game day...okay, I do that one). That's why research is so powerful. While it doesn't "prove" anything (research really can't prove anything), it can very powerfully discredit or back up anecdote .

This is all true, and can easily be said about even the most accepted research... just saying

 

[IrishJayhawk]

This is all true, and can easily be said about even the most accepted research... just saying

Not nearly to the same extent. That's why we do research. We control for variables and eliminate as much "noise" as we can. It doesn't mean that one study = truth. I do, however, trust the results of well controlled research more than anecdote...even my own experiences, when they are contradictory.

 

[ACamp1900]

Not nearly to the same extent. That's why we do research. We control for variables and eliminate as much "noise" as we can. It doesn't mean that one study = truth. I do, however, trust the results of well controlled research more than anecdote...even my own experiences, when they are contradictory.

I do as well, in most cases... working in higher education it does perplex me how often research that is clearly flawed, biased or has a hundred other studies contradicting it, is taken as gospel...

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I do as well, in most cases... working in higher education it does perplex me how often research that is clearly flawed, biased or has a hundred other studies contradicting it, is taken as gospel...

I haven't come across that phenomenon very often. It has happened, certainly, and that's bad.

We should do good research, and we should trust the findings when they start to coalesce around a particular finding. That said, it's rare that they all say the same thing (see alpha levels, probability, and p = .05). That doesn't make the research bad or biased.

 

[ACamp1900]

For the record i wasn't saying differing findings equals bias... two different things...

 

[IrishJayhawk]

For the record i wasn't saying differing findings equals bias... two different things...

True. You didn't. Mea culpa

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

by the way: does everybody on the far right hang out in this thread in order to imagine yourselves living in a magical world where Romney won 52% of the vote?

No. We live in a magical world where the "stimulus" caused unemployment to go up, Detroit was not "rescued", Benghazi didn't happen because of a youtube video, Obamacare isn't affordable and won't improve healthcare, and "roads, bridges and teachers" aren't the backbone of a growing economy.

It's insane.

 

[irishpat183]

No. We live in a magical world where the "stimulus" caused unemployment to go up, Detroit was not "rescued", Benghazi didn't happen because of a youtube video, Obamacare isn't affordable and won't improve healthcare, and "roads, bridges and teachers" aren't the backbone of a growing economy.

It's insane.

and don't forget the mindset that we can somehow pay people outta poverty.

 

[irishpat183]

I love the quotes around "social science."

You should. Just like "equality". Made up terms to give people excuses as to why they are not successful.

It's all garbage.


You can throw all the studies you want at people, fact is, they're not successful because they don't want it bad enough. It's really that simple.

Do some have to work a whole lot harder than others?? Absolutely. But that's life. And our job isn't to make everyone successful, it's to provide opportuniity for success for those that actually want to get out there and take it. There are some that come from horrendous conditions to make it...just like there are those that throw away everything.

Can't all be millionaries. And you can't help people that don't want to help themselves.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

You should. Just like "equality". Made up terms to give people excuses as to why they are not successful.

It's all garbage.


You can throw all the studies you want at people, fact is, they're not successful because they don't want it bad enough. It's really that simple.

Do some have to work a whole lot harder than others?? Absolutely. But that's life. And our job isn't to make everyone successful, it's to provide opportuniity for success for those that actually want to get out there and take it. There are some that come from horrendous conditions to make it...just like there are those that throw away everything.

Can't all be millionaries. And you can't help people that don't want to help themselves.

Lol now this is "social science"

 

[irishpat183]

Lol now this is "social science"

No, that's just life.

 

[autry_denson]

So to conclude:

Acamp believes that anecdotes are more relevant to the debate on economic mobility than national data analyzed by some of the best economists in the world.

And irishpat thinks "social science" is a "made-up term to give people excuses as to why they are not successful."

I'm reminded why I try not get drawn into these discussions.

 

[Buster Bluth]

You can throw all the studies you want at people, fact is, they're not successful because they don't want it bad enough. It's really that simple.

The sheer amount of ignorance in this sentence literally makes me sad.

Do some have to work a whole lot harder than others?? Absolutely. But that's life. And our job isn't to make everyone successful, it's to provide opportuniity for success for those that actually want to get out there and take it. There are some that come from horrendous conditions to make it...just like there are those that throw away everything.

Can't all be millionaries. And you can't help people that don't want to help themselves.

And those aforementioned studies are showing us over and over that the opportunity just doesn't exit for millions of our youth.

I too would like to live in your fantasy world in which opportunity was available to everyone and it was simply a measurement of work ethic to decide how successful we are. But that isn't the case at all.

 

[DSully1995]

If you work harder your ODDS at success are much amplified, but not total. The other piece is education, while hard work determines mostly if you move the ladder, education determines how many steps are on your ladder.

What would anyone here think of a voucher system for k-12, where parents control where the student goes to school, competition within schools could be a good incentive to provide better education