Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

chicago51

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I would like to point out that in 67 when minimum wage was at its highest unemployment fell the next two years from 3.8 to 3.5 I believe.

Last time we raised the minimum wage was in 2006 and if I recall 2007 was a pretty good year for the economy.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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1. The difference between an assistant professor, a grad student and a guy who won the Nobel Prize is pretty big, so what you are saying here makes you sound dumber than I believe you actually are.

2. Go back and read my posts about Krugman. Not once did I say anything about or defend anything he ever said or did or even come close to saying anything he said was to be take as gospel. I was arguing about a dumba** statement (not dis-similar to the one you made above) about him being "a joke."

We can agree to disagree on minimum wage, but...

1. Krugman didn't do anything in his life to be seen as more credible than that assistant professor.

2. You defended Krugman when I called his theories and Nobel Prize a joke, yet you dismiss this PhD in Econ because you don't like the conclusion of his research.

Liberal Logic 101.
 

Ndaccountant

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The people who cannot drink or bathe in their water anymore probably don't care. Their wells have been rendered useless by methane released in the fracking process or in some cases directly polluted by fracking chemicals. They aren't concerned what people in D.C. might think is a win win. They can catch their water on fire.

If wells in isolated areas around fracking sites are affected, how long do you think it will take for that damage to make its way into the larger aquifers that where almost everyone ultimately gets their water? Water always finds its way. And in this case, when it does then we have a massive ecological problem in the most densely populated part of the country. I recognize the short term economic benefits of fracking, but I can also envision the long term problems, too. What is the cost if the entire norhtern East Coast's water supply became unusable?

Here is the conlcusion from this article, which is very fair to both arguments.

"Is it worth it?

That ambulance-chasing mode is what makes current shale gas operations so worrisome to many. If scientists had the data needed to identify problems and find ways to ameliorate or eliminate them, then the current fracas over fracking may have been preempted.

"Transparency has been missing," says Stanford's Zoback. "Then the public gets suspicious and alarmed, and you get misplaced hysteria."

Zoback and other scientists surveying existing data generally have concluded that there are dangers associated with fracking but that existing technologies, regulation and serious enforcement could resolve them. Such regulations would include minimizing the local environmental footprint of setting up the well site and trucking in water and sand, monitoring the integrity of steel casings and cement, swapping out toxic chemicals from the fracking fluid, and collecting seismic and other geologic data.

Like many technologies, fracking comes with promise and with risk, says Zoback. Rules tailored depending on local geology and other factors can mitigate those risks. Consider all the regulations surrounding automobiles. There are seat belts and air bags, emission tests and proper and improper ways to dispose of oil and brake fluid.

Ultimately, unless people are willing to cut way back on their energy use, the risks associated with natural gas recovery have to be weighed against the risks that come with coal, nuclear power and other energy sources.

"It's clear that it's a remarkable resource," Zoback says. "It's abundant, and as a transition fuel between today and the green-energy future, natural gas really is the answer, I'm convinced. But that's not a get-out-of-jail-free card."


The Facts Behind the Frack | Science News
 

GoIrish41

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Here is the conlcusion from this article, which is very fair to both arguments.

"Is it worth it?

That ambulance-chasing mode is what makes current shale gas operations so worrisome to many. If scientists had the data needed to identify problems and find ways to ameliorate or eliminate them, then the current fracas over fracking may have been preempted.

"Transparency has been missing," says Stanford's Zoback. "Then the public gets suspicious and alarmed, and you get misplaced hysteria."

Zoback and other scientists surveying existing data generally have concluded that there are dangers associated with fracking but that existing technologies, regulation and serious enforcement could resolve them. Such regulations would include minimizing the local environmental footprint of setting up the well site and trucking in water and sand, monitoring the integrity of steel casings and cement, swapping out toxic chemicals from the fracking fluid, and collecting seismic and other geologic data.

Like many technologies, fracking comes with promise and with risk, says Zoback. Rules tailored depending on local geology and other factors can mitigate those risks. Consider all the regulations surrounding automobiles. There are seat belts and air bags, emission tests and proper and improper ways to dispose of oil and brake fluid.
Ultimately, unless people are willing to cut way back on their energy use, the risks associated with natural gas recovery have to be weighed against the risks that come with coal, nuclear power and other energy sources.

"It's clear that it's a remarkable resource," Zoback says. "It's abundant, and as a transition fuel between today and the green-energy future, natural gas really is the answer, I'm convinced. But that's not a get-out-of-jail-free card."


The Facts Behind the Frack | Science News

Thanks for posting that NdAccountant.
The issue I have is kinda addressed in here and kinda not. For example, the bolded portion above. There are still lots of people who don't wear seatbelts and some who dump oil down storm drains after changing their oil. Not supposed to, but they still do. Much like their are some instances when oil companies, in their passion to turn as big a profit as possible, cut corners or ignore regulations. If I don't wear my seatbelt, it's not going to desroy a marine ecosystem or ruin someone's water supply. I'm certainly not arguing that fracking cannot be done safely. I'm not a geologist, or a chemist, or an engineer. I just know what I read and see. I don't trust Big Oil, and they've done nothing to give me a reason to think otherwise. Their environmental apathy and price gouging when this the economy was on its knees was shameful. The record to date on fracking is not great, and I don't think looking at it from the 10,000-foot level is a good way to look. I think that you have to consider how it affects individuals. Not all of them signed leases with the frackers but all of them suffer the consequences when the frackers do something wrong. And there is still potential that nobody really understands what is going on a mile deep in the ground or what the consequences of pumping millions of gallons of oil and chemicals into the earth. Nor does anybody really understand how water will find its way to where it wants to go -- whether it be deeper in the ground or into the water supplies of heavily populated areas. It's all a big crap shoot.
 

GoIrish41

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We can agree to disagree on minimum wage, but...

1. Krugman didn't do anything in his life to be seen as more credible than that assistant professor.

2. You defended Krugman when I called his theories and Nobel Prize a joke, yet you dismiss this PhD in Econ because you don't like the conclusion of his research.

Liberal Logic 101.

1. Your hatred for Krugman is well documented. I get it. You don't like him and are willing to dismiss the fact that he is a Nobel Prize winning economist because he disagrees with you.

2. That article gives me no indication that either of the authors of the study are PhDs, which is why I made the comment that I did about the article. I did not disagree with their positions, I simply pointed out that they are not the most qualified individuals I've seen study the subject. Many far more qualified economists completely disagree with their findings. You can take that or leave it, but it is a fact.
 
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Buster Bluth

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1. Your hatred for Krugman is well documented. I get it. You don't like him and are willing to dismiss the fact that he is a Nobel Prize winning economist because he disagrees with you.

The Nobel Prize is extremely impressive in science. Not in peace or economics. It's a verrrry liberal organization that is circlejerking to their own tune. When Obama won the Peace Prize that should have completely destroyed their reputation.
 

DSully1995

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The Nobel Prize is extremely impressive in science. Not in peace or economics. It's a verrrry liberal organization that is circlejerking to their own tune. When Obama won the Peace Prize that should have completely destroyed their reputation.

Friedman won the economics one in the 1970s and hes libertarian. dont know if things have changed since then, wont try to defend Peace haha
 

DSully1995

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But to get back on to politics, In my intro macro econ course we were looking at the means of combatting recessions and its my textbook and teacher claim that in an open economy with floating exchange rates an expansionary fiscal policy does nothing to GDP. The gain from your increased govn spending is offset by a decrease in net exports, making no difference in output...

Does that make the stimulus just a political stunt?
 

Polish Leppy 22

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The Nobel Prize is extremely impressive in science. Not in peace or economics. It's a verrrry liberal organization that is circlejerking to their own tune. When Obama won the Peace Prize that should have completely destroyed their reputation.

A few of us tried explaining that last week. In one ear, out the other...worth a shot!
 
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Buster Bluth

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Friedman won the economics one in the 1970s and hes libertarian. dont know if things have changed since then, wont try to defend Peace haha

What that shows is that they don't have an award for what is "right," versus what is wrong.
 

chicago51

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What that shows is that they don't have an award for what is "right," versus what is wrong.

Buster if I recall you are going to into city planning if I recall.

What is your take on bike lanes? Are they a healthy way to promote less cars on the road or do they take up a lane that could be used for as another lane for car thus making traffic worse?

I don't have an opinion because I don't all that much about it but they were talking about on the radio program I am listening to. Apparently there is some sort of controversy about Seattle taking a bike lane heavy approach.
 

Irish Houstonian

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But to get back on to politics, In my intro macro econ course we were looking at the means of combatting recessions and its my textbook and teacher claim that in an open economy with floating exchange rates an expansionary fiscal policy does nothing to GDP. The gain from your increased govn spending is offset by a decrease in net exports, making no difference in output...

Does that make the stimulus just a political stunt?

All other things being equal, I think stimulus is stunted by its driving up of the local currency (decreasing exports), but I don't think it's a total wash. And that equilibrium re-adjustment occurs over the long-term, so you could still have a econ stimulus in the short term. (At least in theory).
 

enrico514

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A study done on austerity measures.

http://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/caritascrisis-report.pdf

They're not working.

A side note: If I was dictator of Europe the first thing I do would be to dissolve the European Union and get rid of the Euro tommorrow. Eveyone needs to go back to having their own currency. It is disaster.

I'm no Nobel prize winner but it has been pretty obvious to many that the austerity measures in Europe would never work. There has historically been only been a few ways to get out of the position many countries have found themselves and none of them are easy. The most logical for the local populations continue to be: Exit Euro, default on external debts and devalue currency. Not a painless endeavour but far more fair and less damaging than the current path.
 

potownhero

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A study done on austerity measures.

http://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/caritascrisis-report.pdf

They're not working.

A side note: If I was dictator of Europe the first thing I do would be to dissolve the European Union and get rid of the Euro tommorrow. Eveyone needs to go back to having their own currency. It is disaster.

Are you suggesting that more spending would be better? The Southern European economies need to become better producers. if they fail to achieve that they need to become poorer. Northern Europe will not continue to subsidize the less efficient(some say lazy) south.

That's al that matters; if a country is not productive relatively speaking, it will become relatively poorer. This is the same concept when it comes to jobs. Having jobs for everyone means nothing if those jobs aren't productive. The best way thus far discovered to ensure that productive jobs are created is the free market system.
 

chicago51

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Are you suggesting that more spending would be better? The Southern European economies need to become better producers. if they fail to achieve that they need to become poorer. Northern Europe will not continue to subsidize the less efficient(some say lazy) south.

That's al that matters; if a country is not productive relatively speaking, it will become relatively poorer. This is the same concept when it comes to jobs. Having jobs for everyone means nothing if those jobs aren't productive. The best way thus far discovered to ensure that productive jobs are created is the free market system.

Yes I am suggesting that we spend. Look I here all the time about lazy people sucking tax payer dollars from the rest of us. Let's get some of those lazy people off their rear ends and get them being productive.

We have work that needs to be done so it won't be unproductive wasteful work. We rebuild an upgrade our infrastructure . We got a D plus according to engineers.

News Headlines

You can pay all this by ending corporate welfare. Treating capital gains like regular income. If that is not enough you raise income tax on multi millionaires and billionaires by a couple percentage points.

If we don't something we are going to keep getting our butts kicked by globilization and to a much greater extent automation. The automation battle I am not even sure is something we can beat in the long run even if we try.

By the way many unproductive states often red states are subsidized by richer states.
 
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Buster Bluth

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You can pay all this by ending corporate welfare.

The Democrats are just as bad. I haven't seen you attack them once.

I believe the GOP had a guy who wanted to close loopholes and lower the tax rate. Hmmmmm.

Treating capital gains like regular income.

Do you have a 401k? You might look at that differently.

By the way many unproductive states often red states are subsidized by richer states.

Everyone in a red state is a Republican? The views of the poor in red states are 100% in line with their state legislatures? All of the people in blue states are rich and Democrats and the red states are simply hypocrites?

I didn't know that they made brushes that broad.
 

DSully1995

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Yes I am suggesting that we spend. Look I here all the time about lazy people sucking tax payer dollars from the rest of us. Let's get some of those lazy people off their rear ends and get them being productive.

We have work that needs to be done so it won't be unproductive wasteful work. We rebuild an upgrade our infrastructure . We got a D plus according to engineers.

News Headlines

You can pay all this by ending corporate welfare. Treating capital gains like regular income. If that is not enough you raise income tax on multi millionaires and billionaires by a couple percentage points.

If we don't something we are going to keep getting our butts kicked by globilization and to a much greater extent automation. The automation battle I am not even sure is something we can beat in the long run even if we try.

By the way many unproductive states often red states are subsidized by richer states.
Started reading the report, its declared causes were one sided. Since its studying the european states it shouldve included the rampant tax evasion and uncontrolled spending by governments, greece lied about its status just to get into the EU
 

chicago51

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The Democrats are just as bad. I haven't seen you attack them once.

I believe the GOP had a guy who wanted to close loopholes and lower the tax rate. Hmmmmm.



Do you have a 401k? You might look at that differently.



Everyone in a red state is a Republican? The views of the poor in red states are 100% in line with their state legislatures? All of the people in blue states are rich and Democrats and the red states are simply hypocrites?

I didn't know that they made brushes that broad.

I agree that Democrats are just as bad with corporatism has Republicans. If they were serious they would quit going after the 400k a year doctor or small business owner. Until we get money out of politics it will be that way. So yes until a Democrat splits up a big bank I agree with you on this point.

Romney did want to close the loopholes to his credit he also want to drop taxes 20 percent and the math just didn't add up. I could actually go with a Romney liberal hydrid plan let's lower rates for those currently paying the top rate between say 400k and a million along with the middle and close the loopholes to make up the difference. Let's not lower the super rich and the mega corps. With Romney's plan you have eliminate mid class tax benefits like the college tuition and earned income tax credit.

You make a fair point on the 401ks and the capital gains tax. I still though think capital gains needs a more regressive tax to it. If you are Paris Hilton or Mitt Romney you make most of your income on capital gains okay fine God Bless. I get that people when take their money out of their 401ks they may several hundred thousand maybe even over a million that they have saved. I say though when it to 2 million in capital gain earnings in a given year every dollar after should be taxed at the top income tax rates.
 
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Black Irish

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I would like to point out that in 67 when minimum wage was at its highest unemployment fell the next two years from 3.8 to 3.5 I believe.

Last time we raised the minimum wage was in 2006 and if I recall 2007 was a pretty good year for the economy.

You mean the year when this Great Recession started happening?
 

Black Irish

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I was in a meeting today, and my boss told us that the conservative estimate for our company to comply with ACA when it is fully implemented is, conservatively, about $150K-$200K. This is a small restaurant company with 4 area locations employing no more than 200 people. That's real money that can not go towards: additional hiring, raises, capital investment/improvement, advertising/promotion, etc. That's the real cost of a poorly designed piece of legislation that barely addresses the problems it was intended to solve so that Obama & company can pat themselves on the back for achieving "universal health care coverage."
 

chicago51

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You mean the year when this Great Recession started happening?

Unemployment was under 5 the majority of 2007 it started to creep up in the very late months. Recession really didn't kick in till midway through 2008.

I watch most of the 08 primary debates between Obama and Hillary and they were focused on getting out of Iraq not the economy because recession really hadn't kicked in yet. If had come early Obama never would have won the primary he only because Hillary voted for use of force on Iraq.

The housing bubble brought about the market crash and the recession as a whole. It had nothing to with minimum wage increase. Before the bubble burst things where pretty good other than the national debt which is hardly the biggest issue although it will be a bit more so in the 2020s.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Yes I am suggesting that we spend. Look I here all the time about lazy people sucking tax payer dollars from the rest of us. Let's get some of those lazy people off their rear ends and get them being productive.

We have work that needs to be done so it won't be unproductive wasteful work. We rebuild an upgrade our infrastructure . We got a D plus according to engineers.

News Headlines

You can pay all this by ending corporate welfare. Treating capital gains like regular income. If that is not enough you raise income tax on multi millionaires and billionaires by a couple percentage points.

If we don't something we are going to keep getting our butts kicked by globilization and to a much greater extent automation. The automation battle I am not even sure is something we can beat in the long run even if we try.

By the way many unproductive states often red states are subsidized by richer states.[/QUOTE]

Out of your mind. But I'll say it again: split the country into two and we'll see who needs whom. Let's see how long NY, CA, IL, and others can stand on their own financially. As TO would say, get ya popcorn ready!
 

Rizzophil

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I was in a meeting today, and my boss told us that the conservative estimate for our company to comply with ACA when it is fully implemented is, conservatively, about $150K-$200K. This is a small restaurant company with 4 area locations employing no more than 200 people. That's real money that can not go towards: additional hiring, raises, capital investment/improvement, advertising/promotion, etc. That's the real cost of a poorly designed piece of legislation that barely addresses the problems it was intended to solve so that Obama & company can pat themselves on the back for achieving "universal health care coverage."

Obamacare is and never was about health care. It was about government take over.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Obamacare is and never was about health care. It was about government take over.

"People will be a lot better off when they realize the government doesn't give a F*ck about them. All government is interested in is growing and expanding their own power." ---- George Carlin
 

potownhero

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Yes I am suggesting that we spend. Look I here all the time about lazy people sucking tax payer dollars from the rest of us. Let's get some of those lazy people off their rear ends and get them being productive.

We have work that needs to be done so it won't be unproductive wasteful work. We rebuild an upgrade our infrastructure . We got a D plus according to engineers.

News Headlines

You can pay all this by ending corporate welfare. Treating capital gains like regular income. If that is not enough you raise income tax on multi millionaires and billionaires by a couple percentage points.

If we don't something we are going to keep getting our butts kicked by globilization and to a much greater extent automation. The automation battle I am not even sure is something we can beat in the long run even if we try.

By the way many unproductive states often red states are subsidized by richer states.

Because when the misallocation of resources worked so well for the Soviet's?!?

I don't understand how you cannot see the fallacy of your position? We will be wealthier as a society with the most efficient allocation or resources (human, capital, natural and etc).

People acting in their self-interest and getting rewarded for it...including those whose main self-interest is helping others will on average be better than someone who doesn't have an interest in an outcome.
 

ACamp1900

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The red state blue state thing is totally disingenuous anyway... Look at the maps they throw out, it's much more of a low population vs high population... Politics beyond that has little to do with it as there are red and blue on both sides....... But don't tell that to those who enjoy their own version of 'facts'
 
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