Politics

[irishpat183]

Fixed.

BUT BUT BUT...ONLY CEO'S AND BANKS ARE CROOKS!

OUR GOVERNMENT WOULD NEVER DO THAT TO US!

 

[chicago51]

Trust Fund FAQs

It is all documented here. The easiest way to understand it is this:

Taxes come in and are sent to the US Treasury. The US Treasury issues these special bonds to the SSA. The SSA redeems bonds when they mature from the US Treasury. Where does the US Treasury get the money to payoff the old loans and the interest payments when the taxes it takes in no longer cover these expenses?

So wouldn't we just start selling more of the securities. The amount of securities sold will likely soon excede what is coming so the fund will deplete. The fund is suposed to deplete at some point is it not? The whole point was build up enough so it could deplete to support the boomers.

So it is going to run dry in 25 years maybe? So we are going to worry about 25 years down the road and not the things that are causing the deficit to rise right now.

If all the income is invested, how do benefits get paid each month? Money to cover expenditures (mainly benefit payments) from the trust funds comes from the redemption or sale of securities held by the trust funds. When "special-issue" securities are redeemed, interest is paid. In fact, the principal amount of special issues redeemed, plus the corresponding interest, is just enough to cover an expenditure.


What were the amounts of securities bought and sold during recent years? The amount bought in 2011 was $1,015 billion, while the amount sold was $946 billion. See investment transactions for more detail and earlier years.

 

[chicago51]

 

[Ndaccountant]

So wouldn't we just start selling more of the securities. The amount of securities sold will likely soon excede what is coming so the fund will deplete. The fund is suposed to deplete at some point is it not. The whole point was not build up enough so it could deplete to support the boomers.

So it is going to run dry in 25 years maybe? So we are going to worry about 25 years down the road and not the things that are causing the deficit to rise right now.

You cannot look at this in isolation. You have to look at it from a total Government perspective. The securities the SSA holds cannot be sold in the marketplace. They can only be sold to the Treasury. Since the Treasury is apart of the US Government, when the SSA redeems bonds early, the Treasury must find money to pay them with. Since we do not have a surplus, we must borrow to pay it off.

The trust assets exist, but the government cannot pay them back without further borrowing. This amount that the Us Treasury owes SSA is included in our national debt, in the intragovernment holdings category, which is almost 30% of our total debt.

Debt to the Penny (Daily History Search Application)

 

[irishpat183]

LOL....



You could do one for Liberals but it'd be too easy. The left hand column would just read "Whatever doesn't offend people" or "What we tell you it is"

 

[chicago51]

LOL....



You could do one for Liberals but it'd be too easy. The left hand column would just read "Whatever doesn't offend people" or "What we tell you it is"

You know its is all in good fun. I am not meaning to take an personal shots.

 

[chicago51]

My my twitter people are sending me dynamite material today.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/search/%23YouMightBeARepublican">#YouMightBeARepublican</a> If this...ZING! <a href="http://t.co/UxHBLTEZtb" title="http://twitter.com/rollingingraves/status/310926791890059264/photo/1">twitter.com/rollingingrave…</a></p>— Kate (@rollingingraves) <a href="https://twitter.com/rollingingraves/status/310926791890059264">March 11, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Black Irish]

You cannot look at this in isolation. You have to look at it from a total Government perspective. The securities the SSA holds cannot be sold in the marketplace. They can only be sold to the Treasury. Since the Treasury is apart of the US Government, when the SSA redeems bonds early, the Treasury must find money to pay them with. Since we do not have a surplus, we must borrow to pay it off.

The trust assets exist, but the government cannot pay them back without further borrowing. This amount that the Us Treasury owes SSA is included in our national debt, in the intragovernment holdings category, which is almost 30% of our total debt.

Debt to the Penny (Daily History Search Application)

+1. In my post on SS I mentioned the "Unified Budget." Just because we pay a separate SS tax does not mean that money is treated any different than other government revenue. It goes into the pot and gets spent on anything and everything. The Trust Fund exists only on paper. Like Ndaccountant said, the securities that make up the Trust Fund have to be paid for when they are redeemed. So the federal government has to borrow money to pay itself back.

Just think for a minute how absurd that situation would be in your own life. Let's say every paycheck you decided to put $100 aside for your retirement. But instead of actually putting cash aside, you just write yourself a paper IOU. So after forty years of doing this, what do you have? A sock drawer full of worthless paper. You can say that those IOUs mean something all you want, but the fact is that the money is not there.

 

[Ndaccountant]

+1. In my post on SS I mentioned the "Unified Budget." Just because we pay a separate SS tax does not mean that money is treated any different than other government revenue. It goes into the pot and gets spent on anything and everything. The Trust Fund exists only on paper. Like Ndaccountant said, the securities that make up the Trust Fund have to be paid for when they are redeemed. So the federal government has to borrow money to pay itself back.

Just think for a minute how absurd that situation would be in your own life. Let's say every paycheck you decided to put $100 aside for your retirement. But instead of actually putting cash aside, you just write yourself a paper IOU. So after forty years of doing this, what do you have? A sock drawer full of worthless paper. You can say that those IOUs mean something all you want, but the fact is that the money is not there.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7GSXbgfKFWg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[connor_in]

I hadn't touched this thread over the weekend, but decided to check it out on my lunch...

One quick question for Chicago51...I see you have posted a lot of articles lately from sites like Mother Jones and PoliticsUSA (subtitle of website real liberal politics)...how much credence do you give or how much time do you spend reading articles posted on places like Free Republic, Newsbusters, The Right Scoop, Breitbart, etc?

Personally I don't tend to do the two of yours I pointed out, but do spend time on Huffpo, mediamatters, DU, CBS, CNN MSNBC, etc to see life from the other side

 

[chicago51]

I got to poke fun at Sarah Palin here:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Hahaha! True. <a href="http://t.co/RXTdlQCHp5" title="http://twitter.com/MllrNchls/status/310949409087168514/photo/1">twitter.com/MllrNchls/stat…</a></p>— Nicholas August (@MllrNchls) <a href="https://twitter.com/MllrNchls/status/310949409087168514">March 11, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[connor_in]

I got to poke fun at Sarah Palin here:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Hahaha! True. <a href="http://t.co/RXTdlQCHp5" title="http://twitter.com/MllrNchls/status/310949409087168514/photo/1">twitter.com/MllrNchls/stat…</a></p>— Nicholas August (@MllrNchls) <a href="https://twitter.com/MllrNchls/status/310949409087168514">March 11, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Can't access from work...summary?

 

[chicago51]

I hadn't touched this thread over the weekend, but decided to check it out on my lunch...

One quick question for Chicago51...I see you have posted a lot of articles lately from sites like Mother Jones and PoliticsUSA (subtitle of website real liberal politics)...how much credence do you give or how much time do you spend reading articles posted on places like Free Republic, Newsbusters, The Right Scoop, Breitbart, etc?

Personally I don't tend to do the two of yours I pointed out, but do spend time on Huffpo, mediamatters, DU, CBS, CNN MSNBC, etc to see life from the other side

I probably should expand my horizon's somewhat. I don't mind an alternative point of view.

The thing I do look for with liberal sources is were do they get their information from. If comes from a non partisan sources say the Congressional budget office I tend to take at as pretty truthful.

The truth is there is almost no unbiased sources of information out their unless you want to look directly at the hard data and decided for yourself what to make out of it. What I tend to do is expose myself to non partisan data that someone puts a liberal spin on. I am probably not a perfect human being for that. I do tend to think what I do is better than what Rand Paul at the Benghazi hearing and use a right wing blogger that Fox News posted as truth about weapons trafficing from Syria to Turkey; the whole thing was absurd.

The fact is there is probably merit on both sides for the most part, although I am still looking for evidence that austerity creates job. The fact is the there are conservatives out there that are smart people and need to be taken seriously.

 

[chicago51]

Can't access from work...summary?

Basically the picture is of Obama, Biden, Mccain, and Palin. Each person has a corresponding picture of a train next to them.

Obama is a new high speed rail bullet train.

Biden is your typical Amtrack like the one he took from Delaware to DC as a Senator.

Mccain is an 1880s style steam engine.

Palin is a toy thomas the train set with the train falling off the tracks.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Basically the picture is of Obama, Biden, Mccain, and Palin. Each person has a corresponding picture of a train next to them.

Obama is a new high speed rail bullet train.

Biden is your typical Amtrack like the one he took from Delaware to DC as a Senator.

Mccain is an 1880s style steam engine.

Palin is a toy thomas the train set with the train falling off the tracks.

If you haven't changed your views on Social Security yet, here is another article summing it up nicely.

No trust for Social Security - Term Sheet

 

[potownhero]

So wouldn't we just start selling more of the securities. The amount of securities sold will likely soon excede what is coming so the fund will deplete. The fund is suposed to deplete at some point is it not? The whole point was build up enough so it could deplete to support the boomers.

So it is going to run dry in 25 years maybe? So we are going to worry about 25 years down the road and not the things that are causing the deficit to rise right now.

Seriously? Didn't you understand how NDAccnt's Madoff comment related to the issue? Do you not see the Ponzi scheme?

If any private company tried to do what the government is doing, they'd be in jail.

And it's just going to get worse if/when the Fed ever stops manipulating the price of $.

 

[enrico514]

Paul Krugman is a smart man. He called the housing bubble before it happened. His word is not the gospel but his opinion is one that deserves respect.

Vast majority of economist do not support austerity.

I sure hope he called the housing bubble before it happened... he was one of the biggest proponent/endorsor of creating a housing bubble in the first place.

His solutions to all problems was and continues to be to create more bubbles, more spending and more deficits.

“Somebody like Paul Krugman, who’s overdosed on mathematics and uses the King’s English better than practically anyone alive is very dangerous.” — Charlie Munger, 6 Feb 2013.

 

[chicago51]

If you haven't changed your views on Social Security yet, here is another article summing it up nicely.

No trust for Social Security - Term Sheet

Are you saying we can't trust treasury bonds?

There is no issue with the full faith and credit of the United States. So some Republicans would love for you to question the full and faith and credit of the United States and thus question the treasury bonds.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Are you saying we can't trust treasury bonds?

There is no issue with the full faith and credit of the United States. So some Republicans would love for you to question the full and faith and credit of the United States and thus question the treasury bonds.

No, but walk thru the transactions for me. If the SSA wants to redeem their bonds, what happens?

 

[chicago51]

I posted this over the weekend but more people are on now.

Cutting Spending Won't Fix Economy - Business Insider

So the UK tried austerity from the get go while we did the stimulus. Who's doing better now relative to where they were?

The UK doesn't seem convinced that austerity is working

Britons have lost faith in George Osborne's austerity plan | Politics | The Observer

Look if people want to argue the deficit is more important than the economy, okay fine I don't agree but thats your view. Don't tell me though if we somehow just cut back it is supposed to create all these jobs.

 

[irishpat183]

I sure hope he called the housing bubble before it happened... he was one of the biggest proponent/endorsor of creating a housing bubble in the first place.

His solutions to all problems was and continues to be to create more bubbles, more spending and more deficits.

“Somebody like Paul Krugman, who’s overdosed on mathematics and uses the King’s English better than practically anyone alive is very dangerous.” — Charlie Munger, 6 Feb 2013.

Exactly. A F**king blowhard.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Are you saying we can't trust treasury bonds?

There is no issue with the full faith and credit of the United States. So some Republicans would love for you to question the full and faith and credit of the United States and thus question the treasury bonds.

Were you asleep the day Moody's downgraded the US?

 

[chicago51]

Were you asleep the day Moody's downgraded the US?

The cause of the downgrade was the Republicans threatening to default on raising the debt limit. It was a man made downgrade.

Maybe you are right I shouldn't be as confident not with this heavily partisan Congress on both sides although the majority Democrats didn't want to default on the debt even when Bush president. If Congress wasn't full of crazy people the full faith and credit would not be an issue.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>I will never understand how people who hate government expect you to put your trust in them to run it. <a href="https://twitter.com/search/%23UniteBlue">#UniteBlue</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/search/%23p2">#p2</a> <a href="http://t.co/L4npiyMjf0" title="http://twitter.com/mikeallenlong/status/310948623460487168/photo/1">twitter.com/mikeallenlong/…</a></p>— Michael Long (@mikeallenlong) <a href="https://twitter.com/mikeallenlong/status/310948623460487168">March 11, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Ndaccountant]

The cause of the downgrade was the Republicans threatening to default on raising the debt limit. It was a man made downgrade.

Maybe you are right I shouldn't be as confident not with this heavily partisan Congress on both sides although the majority Democrats didn't want to default on the debt even when Bush president. If Congress wasn't full of crazy people the full faith and credit would not be an issue.
QUOTE]
You still have not answered my question.

If SSA wants to redeem bonds, who redeems them? How do they redeem them and where does the capital to redeem them come from?

 

[chicago51]

The cause of the downgrade was the Republicans threatening to default on raising the debt limit. It was a man made downgrade.

Maybe you are right I shouldn't be as confident not with this heavily partisan Congress on both sides although the majority Democrats didn't want to default on the debt even when Bush president. If Congress wasn't full of crazy people the full faith and credit would not be an issue.
QUOTE]
You still have not answered my question.

If SSA wants to redeem bonds, who redeems them? How do they redeem them and where does the capital to redeem them come from?

The US treasury treats them like any one else with a savings bond. They pay them. The Fed makes money appear out of thin air all the time. The created a trillions of dollars out of thin air, just to give to banksters.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Apropo of the discussion, the SEC charged the state of Illinois with fraud over misstatements regarding the health of its government-pension.

Time after time, Illinois failed to inform its bond investors about the risk to its financial condition posed by the structural underfunding of its pension system

SEC hits Illinois with securities fraud charges - Sun-Times Politics

 

[DSully1995]

I hadn't touched this thread over the weekend, but decided to check it out on my lunch...

One quick question for Chicago51...I see you have posted a lot of articles lately from sites like Mother Jones and PoliticsUSA (subtitle of website real liberal politics)...how much credence do you give or how much time do you spend reading articles posted on places like Free Republic, Newsbusters, The Right Scoop, Breitbart, etc?

Personally I don't tend to do the two of yours I pointed out, but do spend time on Huffpo, mediamatters, DU, CBS, CNN MSNBC, etc to see life from the other side

+1. Even if I dont like Fox News' methods, you cant really get the whole picture without the right getting their point of view across, especially since theyre the #1 watched news (i think). Too much of either sides sites/tv will make you delusional

 

[chicago51]

Apropo of the discussion, the SEC charged the state of Illinois with fraud over misstatements regarding the health of its government-pension.



SEC hits Illinois with securities fraud charges - Sun-Times Politics

Illinois is awful. Speaker of the House Michael Maddigan unoffically has ran the state for years and he has ran it into the ground. He is a democrat (albeit a moderate Dem) and I'll say he is terrible.

Illinois isn't the United States either so they can't print their own currency.

 

[Downinthebend]

Can we stop the political meme pictures that mildly try to insult one part or another? I don't think its particularly relevant to a political discussion. Maybe it could be posted in a "Meme" thread somewhere.

Is it this true?

Not trying to be testy here. You got some kind of published article or something to explain it. My sources have said otherwise. I'll always reexamine my stance on something if the evidence shows me a different picture.

If we can never access the money why would we have a Social Security trust fund this makes no sense?

Reagan doubled taxes on the boomer's so we have money in Social Security trust fund to pay them.

In my opinion, the reason we have the trust fund ( and the corresponding tax) is for smoke an mirrors to take more money out of the hands of people.

 

[chicago51]

+1. Even if I dont like Fox News' methods, you cant really get the whole picture without the right getting their point of view across, especially since theyre the #1 watched news (i think). Too much of either sides sites/tv will make you delusional

There is no true centrist media. The Sunday shows on the main networks are somewhat centrist but they are soft and don't ask either side the tough questions. So basically both sides can spew whatever they want.