Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
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    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

connor_in

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The latest Planned Parenthood expose video was released today:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/egGUEvY7CEg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Be warned, as there are some very disturbing images at the end. Most importantly here, Melissa Farrell, Director of Research for Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast, explicitly states multiple times: (1) that PP contracts for the sale of baby organs in order to "diversify its revenue streams"; (2) that PP makes significant profit from such contracts; and (3) that PP alters its abortion techniques in order to better preserve organs for which it has contracted.

Our tax dollars at work.

Glad you posted this, but I wonder what will happen to those that released it? Especially in light of...

Judge blocks release of recordings by anti-abortion group


PS: Thank you for saying so eloquently in your previous posts what I also believe in.
 

pkt77242

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Each state should be free to determine the legality of abortion. For the reasons I've described above, abortion is an essentially religious issue, regardless of which side you're on, because it touches on so many fundamental aspects of a society's worldview.



Because I'm not advocating for a Federal ban on abortion. States with Liberal majorities should be free to have their moral vision codified in law, which means legalized abortion. States with Christian majorities should be free to prohibit it. When one side seeks to enforce its vision on the other at the Federal level, it only serves to deepen the divisions in our national polity.



And how it that not forcing Liberalism on states with a Christian majority?



I haven't been shy in expressing my opinion of the average Republican Congressman here on IE.

My problem with states deciding it is that it disproportionately harms the poor. The poor can't pay to go to another state to get an abortion while wealthier individuals wouldn't be as harmed by it, as it is easier for them to travel to another state. In some ways it almost creates a means test for having an abortion (I understand that you aren't trying to do that but in some ways it is a side effect of it).

I still don't get how it is forcing Liberalism on states with a Christian majority. No one is being forced to have an abortion. That to me is the difference, there is choice as to how to live one's life. To me it feels like Prohibition. If alcohol is illegal no one gets to make the choice for themselves, but if it is legal, then people are free to drink or not based upon their personal/religious beliefs. Now alcohol is completely different from abortion and I understand that. I would also be against laws that mandatory abortions if the child had down syndrome or some other medical issue. It should be up to the individual to decide (for the record, my wife and I would have the baby with down syndrome).

I guess that I am just struggling with how it is being forced up Christians when they don't have to participate in it.

ETA: I guess a better way of saying it is that it doesn't fit my definition of forcing someone to do something but it could fit other people's definition.
 
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pkt77242

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Their federal funds are as good as revoked. This is too graphic and disgusting for any politician to back up.

In my view, IF you are going to do these things it only makes sense to sell the byproduct and maximize the "value". Definitely strikes me as a conflict of interest though, if you are making MORE money off of abortion than alternatives you are incentivized to run people down that path. Few people would argue that the incentives should skew the opposite way if anything.

Yep, and they deserve to be hammered if they were profiting off of it. Stupid on their part.
 

RDU Irish

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I don't fault them for finding creative revenue sources to subsidize their not-for-profit mission. It is fully understandable that they don't want this stuff on the front page of the newspaper since they are largely funded by public dollars. I also think it is making the best of a bad situation to have the remains used for research and development. Much like I am an organ donor, I would prefer my demise create a new opportunity for someone else. Anything else seems selfish and immoral, IMO. At the same point, wouldn't compensation for organ donation increase the pool of organs available, thus saving lives? If the surgeon gets paid $20K to replace livers, shouldn't the poor dead sap get at least $5k to benefit his estate? Well that is illegal but selling dead baby parts is A-OK.

People don't want to know how the sausage is made, they prefer to be willfully ignorant to how the stuff shows up on the store shelves. People go out of their way to de-humanize abortion to try to validate it as OK. Rather than scarlet letter those bearing children for adoption, they should be celebrated.

At the same point, you have to be careful incentivizing people who cannot afford to raise children to have them. There is a reason birth rates drop as affluence increases. Kids are an enormous resource drain and those self sufficient households choose to have fewer kids in order to increase their lot in life. Meanwhile, those of lesser means get more benefits for increasing their household size (and then do crazy stuff like push for ADD diagnosis so they can claim SSDI for their kids). Better to work black market jobs than get a real work history or career and lose all the support.

Then you have the issue of upward mobility. I was raised in poverty and my family worked their way out of it as careers progressed and kids became more self sufficient (allowing mom to work for pay more amongst other things). Poverty is not a static state and opportunity abounds for people to work their way out of it.
 

pkt77242

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I don't fault them for finding creative revenue sources to subsidize their not-for-profit mission. It is fully understandable that they don't want this stuff on the front page of the newspaper since they are largely funded by public dollars. I also think it is making the best of a bad situation to have the remains used for research and development. Much like I am an organ donor, I would prefer my demise create a new opportunity for someone else. Anything else seems selfish and immoral, IMO. At the same point, wouldn't compensation for organ donation increase the pool of organs available, thus saving lives? If the surgeon gets paid $20K to replace livers, shouldn't the poor dead sap get at least $5k to benefit his estate? Well that is illegal but selling dead baby parts is A-OK.

People don't want to know how the sausage is made, they prefer to be willfully ignorant to how the stuff shows up on the store shelves. People go out of their way to de-humanize abortion to try to validate it as OK. Rather than scarlet letter those bearing children for adoption, they should be celebrated.

At the same point, you have to be careful incentivizing people who cannot afford to raise children to have them. There is a reason birth rates drop as affluence increases. Kids are an enormous resource drain and those self sufficient households choose to have fewer kids in order to increase their lot in life. Meanwhile, those of lesser means get more benefits for increasing their household size (and then do crazy stuff like push for ADD diagnosis so they can claim SSDI for their kids). Better to work black market jobs than get a real work history or career and lose all the support.

Then you have the issue of upward mobility. I was raised in poverty and my family worked their way out of it as careers progressed and kids became more self sufficient (allowing mom to work for pay more amongst other things). Poverty is not a static state and opportunity abounds for people to work their way out of it.

I agree with almost everything you said but the bold. It is illegal to profit off of human organs, so they were breaking the law. They can donate them and be reimbursed for the reasonable costs of harvesting and transporting them but they can't "profit" from it. If they were truly profiting from it they broke the law. That is a problem.
 

Whiskeyjack

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My problem with states deciding it is that it disproportionately harms the poor. The poor can't pay to go to another state to get an abortion while wealthier individuals wouldn't be as harmed by it, as it is easier for them to travel to another state. In some ways it almost creates a means test for having an abortion (I understand that you aren't trying to do that but in some ways it is a side effect of it).

I still don't get how it is forcing Liberalism on states with a Christian majority. No one is being forced to have an abortion. That to me is the difference, there is choice as to how to live one's life. To me it feels like Prohibition. If alcohol is illegal no one gets to make the choice for themselves, but if it is legal, then people are free to drink or not based upon their personal/religious beliefs. Now alcohol is completely different from abortion and I understand that. I would also be against laws that mandatory abortions if the child had down syndrome or some other medical issue. It should be up to the individual to decide (for the record, my wife and I would have the baby with down syndrome).

I guess that I am just struggling with how it is being forced up Christians when they don't have to participate in it.

ETA: I guess a better way of saying it is that it doesn't fit my definition of forcing someone to do something but it could fit other people's definition.

That's basically telling states with a Christian majority that you'll tolerate their silly superstitions (for now), but as soon as their moral vision conflicts with yours, Liberalism trumps it. SCOTUS has consistently ruled that way over the last several decades, but none of these issues has been settled; mostly because we're dealing with competing moral visions. It assumes that the Liberal worldview is better for the poor than a Christian one; which is questionable, to say the least.

It is outrageous to expect a Christian community to tolerate an abortion clinic in its midst simply because "no one is forcing them to use it". You don't seem to have any trouble grasping why the Swastika is offensive to Jews, or the Confederate Flag is offensive to African-Americans. So how much more offensive are abortion clinics to Christians, who view the practice as akin to a modern holocaust, when we are forced not only to allow them into our communities, but to subsidize them with our own tax dollars?

I agree with almost everything you said but the bold. It is illegal to profit off of human organs, so they were breaking the law. They can donate them and be reimbursed for the reasonable costs of harvesting and transporting them but they can't "profit" from it. If they were truly profiting from it they broke the law. That is a problem.

If that's the only problem, why not just change the law then? PP is either heinously evil, or it is providing a crucial public service. If you believe the latter, wouldn't it be a shame to see its mission hindered by an archaic law based on Christian ideals which we've since discarded?
 

RDU Irish

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I agree with almost everything you said but the bold. It is illegal to profit off of human organs, so they were breaking the law. They can donate them and be reimbursed for the reasonable costs of harvesting and transporting them but they can't "profit" from it. If they were truly profiting from it they broke the law. That is a problem.

I am confused? If they are human organs, how are they not committing murder?

And they are a non-profit, ergo how could they profit from their sale? Not too difficult to allocate costs to validate expenses.
 

pkt77242

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That's basically telling states with a Christian majority that you'll tolerate their silly superstitions (for now), but as soon as their moral vision conflicts with yours, Liberalism trumps it. SCOTUS has consistently ruled that way over the last several decades, but none of these issues has been settled; mostly because we're dealing with competing moral visions. It assumes that the Liberal worldview is better for the poor than a Christian one; which is questionable, to say the least.

It is outrageous to expect a Christian community to tolerate an abortion clinic in its midst simply because "no one is forcing them to use it". You don't seem to have any trouble grasping why the Swastika is offensive to Jews, or the Confederate Flag is offensive to African-Americans. So how much more offensive are abortion clinics to Christians, who view the practice as akin to a modern holocaust, when we are forced not only to allow them into our communities, but to subsidize them with our own tax dollars?



If that's the only problem, why not just change the law then? PP is either heinously evil, or it is providing a crucial public service. If you believe the latter, wouldn't it be a shame to see its mission hindered by an archaic law based on Christian ideals which we've since discarded?

I have never pushed for swastikas or the Confederate flag to be illegal. A person has a right to own one, paint their car with it, fly it at their house, etc. I have never supported banning them (or for that matter taking down Confederate statues, or changing the name of streets named after Confederate generals). I do not think that the government should be flying it except in museums, etc. Similar to how I view abortion, the government shouldn't be funding it (except in cases where the mother's life is in danger, and the morning after pill for rape victims).

As to allowing them in your communities, they usually are where people are getting abortions. If a community was 90% Christian and they weren't getting abortions, there probably wouldn't be an abortion clinic there. Also what happens if a community is 51% Christian and 49% not. I would even say that an abortion clinic shouldn't be next door to a church or a school, etc. I am not sure how we can balance the two sides in this debate. It seems that no matter what one side will be unhappy or depending on the solution, I guess both sides could be unhappy.
 

RDU Irish

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Those Christian communities have huge demand for abortions. Getting knocked up out of wedlock will get you shunned so best not show your bump.

None of the Anti Abortion crowd has offered any answer (let alone a practical one) as to how they plan to police this utopia that forbids something that is guaranteed to happen.

End of the day, it is impractical to outright ban this. War on drugs on steroids is what you are essentially promoting. Some things are best left between people and God with government staying out of the middle. A practical viability cut off for abortions is a middle ground that anti-abortion crowds refuse to accept because they are mired in emotion instead of logic on the matter.
 

woolybug25

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Weird question for you "at conception" folks.

Say a women gets pregnant and the baby is tubular. They find out at 8 weeks and the situation is urgent. As the fetus cannot survive in the fallopian tube and if it continues to grow, the tube will burst and the mother will begin bleeding internally, possibly risking death.

This is a fetus at this point, so in your definition, it is abortion. But the fetus has 0% of survival and there is no procedure to save it. Is this immoral? Sin? Should it be illegal to save the mother? Is the proper thing to do is hope for miscarriage instead of death of the mother?
 

connor_in

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RDU Irish

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What number of fertilized embryos don't stick and wash out? (Sorry, for the imagery there).

Miscarriages can be unknown or late and horrible. But they happen as nature intends.

What about taking extraordinary means to save an unhealthy child that just isn't meant to live? Sorry but all births are not beautiful bouncing babies full of unlimited potential. Nature can be cruel. Do you bankrupt families and communities at all expense of holding on to every second of possible life? Modern medicine can keep things breathing a lot longer than they are alive. If you don't have the means to pay for extreme treatments, why are we placing that on society?

Impractical. Economics need to come into play at some point to those discussions or you are a naïve Pollyanna. The inability of our society to say "No" is embarrassing and economically devastating. If you want to have 40 fertilized eggs shot up your whoo ha, you should put up $1 million bond for the inevitable medical expense of caring for six pre-term babies.
 

connor_in

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"South Park" Cartman's Mom is Still a Dirty Slut (TV Episode 1998) - Quotes - IMDb


Liane Cartman: [At the Unplanned Parenthood Clinic] I want to have... an abortion.

Nurse Goodly: Oh, well, we can do that. This must be a very difficult time for you, Mrs...

Liane Cartman: Cartman. Yes, it's such a hard decision but I just don't feel like I can raise a child in this screwy world.

Nurse Goodly: Yes, Ms. Cartman, if you don't feel fit to raise a child, an abortion probably is the answer. Do you know the actual time of conception?

Liane Cartman: About 8 years ago.

Nurse Goodly: [thinking] I see... So the fetus is...

Liane Cartman: 8 years old.

Nurse Goodly: Ms. Cartman, 8 years old is a little late to be considering abortion.

Liane Cartman: Really?

Nurse Goodly: Yes, this is what we would refer to as the 40th trimester.

Liane Cartman: But I just don't think I'm a fit mother.

Nurse Goodly: But we prefer to abort babies a little earlier on. In fact, there's a law against abortions after the 2nd trimester.

Liane Cartman: Well, I think you need to keep your laws off of my body!

Nurse Goodly: Hummm... I'm afraid I can't help you, Ms. Cartman. If you want to change the law, you'll have to speak with your congressman.

Liane Cartman: Well, that's exactly what I intend to do! Good day.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I am not sure how we can balance the two sides in this debate. It seems that no matter what one side will be unhappy or depending on the solution, I guess both sides could be unhappy.

Whenever there's not a clear national consensus, the wise course is to defer to the federalist solution.

None of the Anti Abortion crowd has offered any answer (let alone a practical one) as to how they plan to police this utopia that forbids something that is guaranteed to happen.

Abortion was illegal for ~1600 years across the entire Christian West. Jurisdictions that wish to prohibit it would shut down any local abortion clinics and investigate/ prosecute it like any other crime. Yes, some abortions would inevitably still happen. Just like murders still occur, despite homocide being illegal. But outlawing murder and prosecuting it vigorously ensures that there are far fewer murders than there would be otherwise.

You aren't in favor of legalizing murder because it's impossible to snuff it out entirely, are you?

End of the day, it is impractical to outright ban this.

Not true. There are lots of places in America where an outright ban would not be impractical at all. And the places where it would be most impractical are the least likely to ban the practice in the first place.

Some things are best left between people and God with government staying out of the middle. A practical viability cut off for abortions is a middle ground that anti-abortion crowds refuse to accept because they are mired in emotion instead of logic on the matter.

Seriously? I'm "mired in emotion" because I think the unborn are entitled to the same legal protections as newborn infants?

Weird question for you "at conception" folks.

Say a women gets pregnant and the baby is tubular. They find out at 8 weeks and the situation is urgent. As the fetus cannot survive in the fallopian tube and if it continues to grow, the tube will burst and the mother will begin bleeding internally, possibly risking death.

This is a fetus at this point, so in your definition, it is abortion. But the fetus has 0% of survival and there is no procedure to save it. Is this immoral? Sin? Should it be illegal to save the mother? Is the proper thing to do is hope for miscarriage instead of death of the mother?

Can't speak for everyone, but abortions necessary to save the life of the mother are not prohibited by Catholic doctrine. Such situations are extremely rare, and should be considered tragedies, but it's not immoral to sacrifice the child in order to save the mother's life.

What about taking extraordinary means to save an unhealthy child that just isn't meant to live? Sorry but all births are not beautiful bouncing babies full of unlimited potential. Nature can be cruel. Do you bankrupt families and communities at all expense of holding on to every second of possible life? Modern medicine can keep things breathing a lot longer than they are alive. If you don't have the means to pay for extreme treatments, why are we placing that on society?

This is a total strawman. Being pro-life does not equate to an unqualified commitment to preserve and extend every human life everywhere to the greatest extent possible under current medical technology.
 

woolybug25

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Can't speak for everyone, but abortions necessary to save the life of the mother are not prohibited by Catholic doctrine. Such situations are extremely rare, and should be considered tragedies, but it's not immoral to sacrifice the child in order to save the mother's life.

Glad to hear. I wouldn't call it "extremely rare" though. 1 out of 50 pregnancies end up ectopic, and the majority of those end up having D&C. Ectopic pregnancy isn't the only condition that doctors immediately want to go that route either.

But I get your point and it's reasonable.
 

RDU Irish

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OK, let's fill up jails with young single women and back room doctors. Maybe we can legalize drugs to make room for them.
 

pkt77242

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Can't speak for everyone, but abortions necessary to save the life of the mother are not prohibited by Catholic doctrine. Such situations are extremely rare, and should be considered tragedies, but it's not immoral to sacrifice the child in order to save the mother's life.

Most (though not all) hardcore Catholics that I know say the opposite.

Abortion - Marriage and Respect Life - The Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix

Q: Does the Catholic Church oppose abortion if it is needed to save a woman’s life?

A: We may never perform an intrinsically evil act even to bring about a great good. For example, a just society cannot intentionally kill innocent civilians in a war, even for the praiseworthy goal of ending a conflict quickly and saving many lives. Likewise, in the context of pregnancy, a woman may not be killed in order to save the life of her child, and a child may not be killed in order to save the life of his mother. However, the Church does permit morally neutral medical procedures designed to save a pregnant woman’s life that may have an unintended side-effect of causing a child to die in the womb, such as the removal of a cancerous uterus. (For a more detailed treatment of this topic, see this essay by the Diocese’s Medical Ethicist Fr. John Ehrich)

What this seems to say to me, is that you can't abort the baby to save the mother's life.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Glad to hear. I wouldn't call it "extremely rare" though. 1 out of 50 pregnancies end up ectopic, and the majority of those end up having D&C. Ectopic pregnancy isn't the only condition that doctors immediately want to go that route either.

But I get your point and it's reasonable.

My understanding is that most ectopic pregnancies miscarry long before threatening the mother's health. So the situations where medical intervention is necessary tend to be rare. But I'm open to correction on that.

OK, let's fill up jails with young single women and back room doctors. Maybe we can legalize drugs to make room for them.

I think it's eminently reasonable to prosecute people who vivisect small human beings in utero. Just like we'd prosecute a woman or doctor who smothered a newborn with a pillow.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Most (though not all) hardcore Catholics that I know say the opposite.

Abortion - Marriage and Respect Life - The Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix

What this seems to say to me, is that you can't abort the baby to save the mother's life.

I can see why you would read it that way, but that's not really what it's saying. See this article from Priests for Life:

Question7: I am trying to help a Catholic woman who is not pro-life because she feels the Church does not support the life of a mother when carrying her baby would end her own life. I cited the example of St. Gianna, the physician woman who refused chemotherapy because she wanted her fourth child to live.

Answer: There are two questions at issue here. One is medical (Is there ever need for an abortion to save the mother's life?) and the other is moral (Would an abortion in that case be justified?) The answer to both questions is no. There is no medical situation whose only solution is a direct abortion, as many doctors have testified. Morally speaking, furthermore, it is never right to directly kill an innocent person, even if good results are foreseen. We do not say that a baby's life is more important than the mother's. We do say that they are equal. You may never directly kill either one of them. If, in spite of the best medical efforts, one or both of them die, nothing morally wrong has been done, because an effort has been made to save life, but has failed. That is far different from killing.

Question 6: I am an oncology nurse and was asked to give methotrexate for an ectopic pregnancy on another floor since only oncology nurses can give chemotherapeutic drugs. I believe the pregnancy was tubal. Needless to say I refused because I was unsure of the morality of it. I do not know the entire patient situation since the patient was on another floor. Could you please explain the morality of this act according to the church's teaching. I do not think the mother's life was in danger at this particular time. Thanks and God bless you. P.S. I work at a catholic hospital

Answer: There is more than one medical way of handling an ectopic pregnancy. The relevant moral question is whether the method or action is in fact a killing of the child. If so, that is a direct abortion, which is never permissible for any reason. "Direct means that the destruction of the child is willed as the end or the means to another end. Sometimes ectopic pregnancies are handled this way, killing the child but leaving the tube intact. Such an action is morally wrong.

However, if what is done is that the damaged portion of the tube is removed because of the threat it poses to the mother, that is not a direct abortion, even if the child dies. What is done is the same thing that would be done if the tube were damaged from some other cause. The mother is not saved by the death of the child but by the removal of the tube. Because the death of the child in this case is a side effect which is not intended, and because the saving of the mother's life is not brought about by the death of the child, such a removal of the damaged portion of the tube is morally permissible. The ethical rule that applies here is called the Principle of the Double Effect.

It's mostly a semantic issue. Direct abortions, meaning procedures that have the primary purpose of killing a child in utero, are always immoral. However, life-saving treatment for the mother that kills the child as a side effect are not immoral.
 

pkt77242

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I can see why you would read it that way, but that's not really what it's saying. See this article from Priests for Life:



It's mostly a semantic issue. Direct abortions, meaning procedures that have the primary purpose of killing a child in utero, are always immoral. However, life-saving treatment for the mother that kills the child as a side effect are not immoral.

Ok that is kind of what I was driving at, an abortion to save the mothers life is never acceptable but a medical procedure to save the mother's life (that is not an abortion) that ends up causing the death of the baby is ok. So for example if a women had a heart condition and got pregnant and she would die from the pregnancy, according to the church she couldn't have an abortion. While if a pregnant women had cancer and got treated with chemo and it killed the baby, it would be ok. I believe that I got that more or less correct.
 
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RDU Irish

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Interviewer - "I see you have a felony murder on your resume?"

Interviewee - "Well, you see. I got knocked up by my boyfriend in High School, got scared and went to the bad part of town to find someone to administer an abortion before my parents found out. The police raided the place immediately after the procedure and I served 5-10 up state, missing out on graduation and college. I did get my GED and the good news is I am sterile from the poorly performed procedure so you don't have to worry about me going on maternity leave or prison again."

I know something you find morally abhorrent is hard to find publicly acceptable but it generally is. I don't like abortion one bit. I would take extreme measures to talk anyone I know out of it, including great financial support. I hate the sin, not the sinner. I have compassion for those forced to make these decisions. My preference is to provide incentives for life rather than punish the sin.
 

woolybug25

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Ok that is kind of what I was driving at, an abortion to save the mothers life is never acceptable but a medical procedure to save the mother's life (that is not an abortion) that ends up causing the death of the baby is ok. So for example if a women had a heart condition and got pregnant and she would die from the pregnancy, according to the church she couldn't have an abortion. While if a pregnant women had cancer and got treated with chemo and it killed the baby, it would be ok. I believe that I got that more or less correct.

So ectopic pregnancy that ends in D&C... What's the call?

In this case, the fetus is literally the cause. It's not mutually exclusive, as the procedure itself is removing the fetus. It's not a procedure where the termination is a side effect of a procedure... It is the procedure.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Ok that is kind of what I was driving at, an abortion to save the mothers life is never acceptable but a medical procedure to save the mother's life (that is not an abortion) that ends up causing the death of the baby is ok. So for example if a women had a heart condition and got pregnant and she would die from the pregnancy, according to the church she couldn't have an abortion. While if a pregnant women had cancer and got treated with chemo and it killed the baby, it would be ok. I believe that I got that more or less correct.

As the article linked above mentions, "there is no medical situation whose only solution is a direct abortion." I've never read anything credible to the contrary.

Interviewer - "I see you have a felony murder on your resume?"

Interviewee - "Well, you see. I got knocked up by my boyfriend in High School, got scared and went to the bad part of town to find someone to administer an abortion before my parents found out. The police raided the place immediately after the procedure and I served 5-10 up state, missing out on graduation and college. I did get my GED and the good news is I am sterile from the poorly performed procedure so you don't have to worry about me going on maternity leave or prison again."

Where did I advocate for lengthy prison sentences for women who abort?

I know something you find morally abhorrent is hard to find publicly acceptable but it generally is.

It is not "generally... acceptable". 43 years after Roe v. Wade, the nation is still bitterly divided over the issue. More Americans identify as pro-life than pro-choice, and that gap is likely to widen as the sterile medical veneer of the abortion industry is chipped away to reveal the barbaric horror underneath.

I don't like abortion one bit. I would take extreme measures to talk anyone I know out of it, including great financial support. I hate the sin, not the sinner. I have compassion for those forced to make these decisions. My preference is to provide incentives for life rather than punish the sin.

I completely agree that young single pregnant women need a lot more support than they're currently getting. The Catholic Church runs crisis pregnancy centers all over the country that provide support and counseling to such people. But that doesn't detract from the need to denounce evil when we see it and do what we can to combat it legislatively.

So ectopic pregnancy that ends in D&C... What's the call?

In this case, the fetus is literally the cause. It's not mutually exclusive, as the procedure itself is removing the fetus. It's not a procedure where the termination is a side effect of a procedure... It is the procedure.

From the article linked above:

Question 6: I am an oncology nurse and was asked to give methotrexate for an ectopic pregnancy on another floor since only oncology nurses can give chemotherapeutic drugs. I believe the pregnancy was tubal. Needless to say I refused because I was unsure of the morality of it. I do not know the entire patient situation since the patient was on another floor. Could you please explain the morality of this act according to the church's teaching. I do not think the mother's life was in danger at this particular time. Thanks and God bless you. P.S. I work at a catholic hospital

Answer: There is more than one medical way of handling an ectopic pregnancy. The relevant moral question is whether the method or action is in fact a killing of the child. If so, that is a direct abortion, which is never permissible for any reason. "Direct means that the destruction of the child is willed as the end or the means to another end. Sometimes ectopic pregnancies are handled this way, killing the child but leaving the tube intact. Such an action is morally wrong.

However, if what is done is that the damaged portion of the tube is removed because of the threat it poses to the mother, that is not a direct abortion, even if the child dies. What is done is the same thing that would be done if the tube were damaged from some other cause. The mother is not saved by the death of the child but by the removal of the tube. Because the death of the child in this case is a side effect which is not intended, and because the saving of the mother's life is not brought about by the death of the child, such a removal of the damaged portion of the tube is morally permissible. The ethical rule that applies here is called the Principle of the Double Effect.
 

pkt77242

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As the article linked above mentions, "there is no medical situation whose only solution is a direct abortion." I've never read anything credible to the contrary.





From the article linked above:


There are some heart conditions where a woman should not get pregnant due to the high risk of her dying. They are rare but people do have them (such as Eisenmenger Syndrome, Severe aortic stenosis, and women who have had heart attacks), and there are probably others but those are the ones that I know of from previous research. While there are other options such as the women trying to keep the pregnancy, her chance of dying drastically increases. In your mind is there ever a point where the risk is so high that abortion is ok? What if it is 90% likely that the women dies before 20 weeks? Is the 10% chance work the risk? Or is it better to make sure that you save the life that you can?


Answer: There is more than one medical way of handling an ectopic pregnancy. The relevant moral question is whether the method or action is in fact a killing of the child. If so, that is a direct abortion, which is never permissible for any reason. "Direct means that the destruction of the child is willed as the end or the means to another end. Sometimes ectopic pregnancies are handled this way, killing the child but leaving the tube intact. Such an action is morally wrong.

However, if what is done is that the damaged portion of the tube is removed because of the threat it poses to the mother, that is not a direct abortion, even if the child dies. What is done is the same thing that would be done if the tube were damaged from some other cause. The mother is not saved by the death of the child but by the removal of the tube. Because the death of the child in this case is a side effect which is not intended, and because the saving of the mother's life is not brought about by the death of the child, such a removal of the damaged portion of the tube is morally permissible. The ethical rule that applies here is called the Principle of the Double Effect.

This is one of my biggest issues with the Catholic church. Ectopic pregnancies almost never end well. The two main ways of handling ectopic pregnancies are methotrexate which is a drug that destroys the cells, or doing laparoscopic surgery to the fertilized egg but they rarely take out a portion of the fallopian tubes. Why would you want to have part of the tubes removed if it is medically unnecessary? Would you want them to wait until it ruptures putting the mom's life at risk? The final option is if the fallopian tube has ruptured then usually they have to remove it, which would meet the Catholic guidelines, but that is risky as a ruptured fallopian tube leads to a large amount of internal bleeding?

With an ectopic pregnancy, what would you have the mother and doctor do?
 

woolybug25

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This is one of my biggest issues with the Catholic church. Ectopic pregnancies almost never end well. The two main ways of handling ectopic pregnancies are methotrexate which is a drug that destroys the cells, or doing laparoscopic surgery to the fertilized egg but they rarely take out a portion of the fallopian tubes. Why would you want to have part of the tubes removed if it is medically unnecessary? Would you want them to wait until it ruptures putting the mom's life at risk? The final option is if the fallopian tube has ruptured then usually they have to remove it, which would meet the Catholic guidelines, but that is risky as a ruptured fallopian tube leads to a large amount of internal bleeding?

With an ectopic pregnancy, what would you have the mother and doctor do?

@whiskey - as pkt mentioned above, rarely do ectopic pregnancies that require P&C involve removing the tube. The article quote you provided gave a very assumptive answer that gave a disingenuous image of what the procedure actually entails.

Medical science has evolved past simply cutting out the tube. The majority of its done with drugs and/or laparoscopic surgery, which greatly reduces risk and increases likelihood of future pregnancy.

It's pretty clear, from the quotes above, where the Catholic Church stands in regards to this. Unless I'm missing something, which let me know if I am, then this is a wildly out of touch concept by the church. What... Do they want every mother that goes through this to give a "pound of flesh" before its ok? Or would it be more acceptable if a husband forced his wife to risk her life for the sake of cells forming in her Fallopian tube?
 

pkt77242

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The problem is that you are only comparing part of the equation. How about we also look at paid maternity leave by country, healthcare (such as contraception to prevent pregnancy) and welfare programs for the poor, childcare, and other benefits for expectant/new moms (such as Finland's baby boxes, in-home visits in France, etc.).

Here is an interesting article on how France handles it. France's Model Health Care For New Mothers : NPR I don't think that the US could do exactly what they do but damn we give expectant mothers almost no help, costs are high, many don't have paid leave, childcare is crazy expensive here, etc.
 

Whiskeyjack

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@pkt & wooly, I'm certain the Catholic position is not "There's no way to save both mother and child, so both must die. Sorry, God's will..." The Catholic position emphasizes that the baby's life is equal in value to the mother's. As long as the parties involved are mindful of that precept and reasonable steps are taken to preserve the baby's life, then a life-saving procedure for the mother that results in the baby's death is not immoral. None of us are doctors, so we're not qualified to comment on whether the most common treatments for ectopic pregnancy sufficiently respect the life of the baby.

These are hard cases for which there are no easy answers. As long as a good faith effort has been made to preserve the baby's life, life-saving treatment for the mother that results in the baby's death is not against Catholic moral teaching.

The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "There is No Pro-Life Case for Planned Parenthood":

I’m hoping to do something broader about the abortion issue in this space soon, given the prominence that the debate over Planned Parenthood funding has suddenly assumed. But for this week a word (well, a few words) on the argument in this Dana Milbank column, which was also basically the argument in this earlier Milbank column, which is also roughly the argument in this Ruth Marcus column, which is also the argument in this Damon Linker column, which is also a case that Slate’s Will Saletan has made repeatedly in the past, which … well, you get the idea. The claim they’re all making, in different ways, is that even though Planned Parenthood performs hundreds of thousands of abortions every year (while lobbying constantly against any restriction on the practice), to oppose channeling public dollars to its family planning operations is to be objectively pro-abortion, because those operations objectively prevent many more abortions still.

This claim has understandable appeal to the pro-choice-but-uneasy- about-it side of the abortion debate, which is why it’s repeated so often and accepted so uncritically. But as I’ve had reason to argue before (going back years and years), it also runs into some empirical difficulties. Here are a few of them.

First, whether you go state by state in the U.S. or make comparisons across developed countries (within Europe as well as North America), there is very little evidence for the kind of correlation between liberal social policies and lower abortion rates that the alleged “pro-life” case for Planned Parenthood assumes. In the U.S. especially, as I’ve noted before, the correlation often runs the other way: Abortion rates are generally lower in (conservative) states that have more abortion restrictions and fewer publicly funded family planning programs, and higher in (liberal) states where public policy is friendlier to Planned Parenthood, comprehensive sex education, public provision of contraception, etc. Indeed, to the (highly debatable) extent that there exists a “red”/”blue” divide in rates of out-of-wedlock births, it seems to be primarily driven by higher blue-state abortion rates rather than lower blue-state rates of unplanned pregnancy — which is the opposite of what the alleged “pro-life” case for Planned Parenthood would lead one to expect.

Now, this red/blue abortion correlation is not an iron law. In one of the columns cited above, Milbank notes that the ongoing decline in the nation’s abortion rate has been steeper in some liberal states than in conservatives ones over the last few years. I would note that declines are often steeper when there’s more room to fall, but leave that aside for the moment, since all by itself that data actually creates a bigger problem for his argument: The steep decline coincides with the very sort of reduction in federal funding that he claims will lead to more abortions overall. Compare Milbank here …

The Ernst legislation says that “all funds no longer available to Planned Parenthood will continue to be made available to other eligible entities.” But … congressional Republicans’ assurances are suspect, Coleman notes, because they’ve already cut Title X funds by 13 percent, or $40 million, since 2010 — resulting in a loss of 667,000 family-planning patients annually.

… to Milbank here:

… in an Associated Press survey this week of state-by-state changes in abortions since 2010 … states that have passed the most stringent antiabortion laws in recent years, including Indiana, Missouri, Ohio and Oklahoma, have seen their abortions drop by more than 15 percent. But states with virtually unrestricted abortions such as New York, Oregon and Washington have had similar declines. Indeed, five of the six states with the biggest declines — Hawaii (30 percent), New Mexico (24 percent), Nevada and Rhode Island (22 percent) and Connecticut (21 percent) have had no recent laws restricting abortions.

So to be clear: In 2010 Congressional Republicans enacted a more modest version of the policy that Milbank believes will lead to many more abortions, and since 2010 the abortion rate has … fallen in almost every state in the union.

And you don’t have to just look at the 2010-2013 period. Depending on how you calculate things, the nationwide abortion rate has been in steady decline since either the 1980s or the early 1990s. Over that same period, inflation-adjusted Title X funding — again, the funding that is allegedly essential to keeping the abortion rate low — has dropped by 60 percent, according to the Guttmacher Institute’s estimate. So again, Congressional Republicans have been following precisely the policy course that Milbank insists will drive up the abortion rate, not for a few years, but for more than a generation … and the results have been, again, the opposite of what he predicts.

You can also see a related problem with this argument if you look, not just at abortion, but at rates of unplanned pregnancy, which the alleged “pro-life” case for Planned Parenthood stresses as the key to abortion reduction overall. Between 2010 and 2013, as Milbank notes, the rate of unplanned pregnancy and abortion fell in tandem — with the former being an indicator, probably, of recession-driven sexual caution. But if you look at those rates across a longer time horizon, as Michael New noted in an earlier response to Milbank, the unintended pregnancy rate actually rose somewhat from the 1990s until the Great Recession … which is, once again, the same period in which the overall abortion rate precipitously declined.

That decline, in other words, didn’t happen primarily because fewer women were getting pregnant; it happened because fewer pregnant women decided to have abortions. And if the question is whether, a resource for already- pregnant women, Planned Parenthood effectively encourages abortions, I’m not sure that you need to watch that many videos or read that widely to have that question answered; a glance at the PP ratio of abortions to adoption referrals (for 2014 it was — officially — 149:1) tells you most of what you need to know.

Now: Does all of the foregoing mean that no contraceptive-oriented public policy can possibly reduce the abortion rate? No, probably some can, and do: You can find evidence, when other variables are screened out, that certain discrete measures — including the oversold but still noteworthy recent Colorado experiment with long-acting contraception, which I promise to give longer treatment at some point — can in some cases have an impact on abortion rates on the margins. The overall evidence here isn’t quite as straightforward as liberals insist, but it’s stronger than some social conservatives want to believe, and it deserves a role in the debate about what sort of interventions the government should support.

But given how much larger so many other variables (legal, cultural, economic, mysterious) seem to loom, and how little evidence there is overall for some sort of successful “blue model” of abortion reduction in the post-Roe, post-Casey U.S.A., the case for a strictly contraceptive approach to reducing the abortion rate is not strong enough, not nearly strong enough, not anywhere close to strong enough to justify the kind of moral blackmail that moderate liberals keep trying to deploy against pro-lifers to keep money flowing to the nation’s largest purveyor of abortion.

Instead, by any reasonable assessment the moral pressure ought to run the other way. If, like many of the moderate-liberal columnists writing on this issue, you are 1) made at least somewhat uncomfortable by the dismemberment of living human beings in utero but 2) are convinced that Planned Parenthood’s non-abortion-related services are essential to the common good, why not write a column urging Planned Parenthood to, I dunno, get out of the dismemberment business? If all these other services are such a great, crucial, and (allegedly) abortion-reducing good, why do you, center-left journalist, want them perpetually held hostage to the possibility of public outrage over the crushing of tiny bodies in the womb? If a publicly-funded institution does one set of things you really like, and another thing that makes you morally uncomfortable, why are you constantly attacking that organization’s critics and telling them that they just have to live with the combination, instead of urging the organization itself to refocus on the non-lethal, non-dismembering portions of its business?

Because here’s the thing: The cultural consensus in favor of contraception and contraceptive access in this country – in favor, that is, of Milbank’s view of family planning policy, and Marcus’s, and Linker’s, and Saletan’s — is really very, very strong. Separated from the abortion question, as a pro-contraception argument alone, their argument would mostly be a political winner. Yes, many conservatives oppose certain forms of public funding for birth control on limited-government grounds; yes, many religious conservatives fear that contraception and abortion are bound together in a kind of socio-cultural unity, in which no matter what happens on the margins with this program or that one, in the aggregate acceptance of one necessarily feeds the prevalence of the other. But whether or not those fears are justified (here’s my provisional case for why some of them might not be), those combined conservative sentiments matter politically, and increasingly so, primarily because the pro-contraceptive case is wedded, and intimately, to pro-abortion politics. And they would have much, much less influence over our health care debates if the contraception-providing institution constantly defended by liberals as the embodiment of All That Is Worthy of Support were not also … an industrial-scale purveyor of abortion!

So let’s be clear about what’s really going on here. It is not the pro-life movement that’s forced Planned Parenthood to unite actual family planning and mass feticide under one institutional umbrella. It is not the Catholic Church or the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles or the Southern Baptist Convention or the Republican Party that have bundled pap smears and pregnancy tests and HPV vaccines with the kind of grisly business being conducted on those videos. This is Planned Parenthood’s choice; it is liberalism’s choice; it is the respectable center-left of Dana Milbank and Ruth Marcus and Will Saletan that’s telling pro-life and pro-choice Americans alike that contraceptive access and fetal dismemberment are just a package deal, that if you want to fund an institution that makes contraception widely available then you just have to live with those “it’s another boy!” fetal corpses in said institution’s freezer, that’s just the price of women’s health care and contraceptive access, and who are you to complain about paying it, since after all the abortion arm of Planned Parenthood is actually pretty profitable and doesn’t need your tax dollars?

This is a frankly terrible argument, rooted in a form of self-deception that would be recognized as such in any other context. Tell me anything but this, liberals: Tell me that you aren’t just pro-choice but pro-abortion, tell me that abortion is morally necessary and praiseworthy, tell me that it’s as morally neutral as snuffing out a rabbit, tell me that a fetus is just a clump of cells and that pro-lifers are all unhinged zealots. Those arguments, as much as I disagree with them, have a real consistency, a moral logic that actually makes sense and actually justifies the continued funding of Planned Parenthood.

But to concede that pro-lifers might be somewhat right to be troubled by abortion, to shudder along with us just a little bit at the crushing of the unborn human body, and then turn around and still demand the funding of an institution that actually does the quease-inducing killing on the grounds that what’s being funded will help stop that organization from having to crush quite so often, kill quite so prolifically – no, spare me. Spare me. Tell the allegedly “pro-life” institution you support to set down the forceps, put away the vacuum, and then we’ll talk about what kind of family planning programs deserve funding. But don’t bring your worldview’s bloody hands to me and demand my dollars to pay for soap enough to maybe wash a few flecks off.
 

woolybug25

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@pkt & wooly, I'm certain the Catholic position is not "There's no way to save both mother and child, so both must die. Sorry, God's will..." The Catholic position emphasizes that the baby's life is equal in value to the mother's. As long as the parties involved are mindful of that precept and reasonable steps are taken to preserve the baby's life, then a life-saving procedure for the mother that results in the baby's death is not immoral. None of us are doctors, so we're not qualified to comment on whether the most common treatments for ectopic pregnancy sufficiently respect the life of the baby.

These are hard cases for which there are no easy answers. As long as a good faith effort has been made to preserve the baby's life, life-saving treatment for the mother that results in the baby's death is not against Catholic moral teaching.

The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "There is No Pro-Life Case for Planned Parenthood":

That's like saying that none of us are Notre Dame coaches, so we are not qualified to talk about recruiting. You don't have to be an expert to know how a common procedure is done. I assure you, with no trepidation in opinion, that removal of the tube is fairly uncommon with an ectopic pregnancy.

But if it makes everyone else feel better, I texted my obstetrician friend this question and she confirmed that it is rare. Her text read, "who told you that? No..." So there's a qualified opinion.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, homie. But I keep looking and haven't seen one piece of writing that says that this is acceptable. I agree with you that it doesn't jive that the church would say "if the mother dies, she dies", but I haven't seen anything that differs from that. I'm all ears if there is something. Until then, I simply add this to the ever growing list of items that disconnect me from the Catholic Doctrine.

You mentioned that it's hard to raise children today with all of the "liberal philosophy" going around. But the sword cuts both ways, it's hard to raise kids to believe that things like this are acceptable. It's simply out of touch with medical advancement.
 

pkt77242

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@pkt & wooly, I'm certain the Catholic position is not "There's no way to save both mother and child, so both must die. Sorry, God's will..." The Catholic position emphasizes that the baby's life is equal in value to the mother's. As long as the parties involved are mindful of that precept and reasonable steps are taken to preserve the baby's life, then a life-saving procedure for the mother that results in the baby's death is not immoral. None of us are doctors, so we're not qualified to comment on whether the most common treatments for ectopic pregnancy sufficiently respect the life of the baby.

These are hard cases for which there are no easy answers. As long as a good faith effort has been made to preserve the baby's life, life-saving treatment for the mother that results in the baby's death is not against Catholic moral teaching.

The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "There is No Pro-Life Case for Planned Parenthood":

As to the first part, I hope that Catholics see it that way, but many hardcore Catholics believe in only medically neutral procedures as pointed out in the link I provided earlier from the Phoenix Diocese (and the treatment for Ectopic pregnancies are not medically neutral till it ruptures). That link doesn't leave the grey area that you do which is one of my frustrations with the strict Catholic interpretation, life isn't a neat black and white. While I agree that I am not a doctor my info on how to treat Ectopic pregnancies was pulled directly from the Mayo Clinic. Ectopic pregnancy Treatments and drugs - Mayo Clinic

Now to the article. The NEJM published a study at the end of 2014 that I think does a good job of showing how liberal social policies can lower both teen pregnancies and abortion (the link says error but it works). MMS: Error

Summary of Methods
The Contraceptive CHOICE Project was a large prospective cohort study designed to promote the use of long-acting, reversible contraceptive (LARC) methods to reduce unintended pregnancy in the St. Louis region. Participants were educated about reversible contraception, with an emphasis on the benefits of LARC methods, were provided with their choice of reversible contraception at no cost, and were followed for 2 to 3 years. We analyzed pregnancy, birth, and induced-abortion rates among teenage girls and women 15 to 19 years of age in this cohort and compared them with those observed nationally among U.S. teens in the same age group.

Summary of Results
Of the 1404 teenage girls and women enrolled in CHOICE, 72% chose an intrauterine device or implant (LARC methods); the remaining 28% chose another method. During the 2008–2013 period, the mean annual rates of pregnancy, birth, and abortion among CHOICE participants were 34.0, 19.4, and 9.7 per 1000 teens, respectively. In comparison, rates of pregnancy, birth, and abortion among sexually experienced U.S. teens in 2008 were 158.5, 94.0, and 41.5 per 1000, respectively.

I think that we need to do more studies like this before we can draw definitive conclusions, but the results are really promising that liberal social policies can drastically lower abortion rates (and teen pregnancy rates).
 
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