Politics

[Irish Houstonian]

Ok... where is the national rate right now if the lowest state in the union is at 10%...

I don't know the exact #'s, but it ain't good. And it's getting worse.

 

[Cackalacky]

The discussion was going swimmingly, I thought. Whiskey and I were disagreeing, but civilly. HE brought my MY personal financial situation so I responded in kind. I didn't bring up myself, but I responded to those personal issues that he raised.

I'm fine that he did, but it's bullshit to suggest that I'm the one making this about "me". Buster then implied that I'm not fit to comment on anything because I'm too young and therefore must know nothing.

Oh the irony........If you go back and read what you wrote, you will see how much you actually implied by talking about "you."

 

[wizards8507]

Wait, he did??? I missed that, and if he did, isn't he younger than you? Pretty sure.

I think that's what he was getting at, unless I read him wrong.

I said: I'm 24 and my generation is a bunch of degenerates.

He replied:

And now I see how such a worldview is possible.

 

[ACamp1900]

I think that's what he was getting at, unless I read him wrong.

I said: I'm 24 and my generation is a bunch of degenerates.

He replied:

He was pointing to the bolded... I'd be willing to bet.

 

[wizards8507]

He was pointing to the bolded... I'd be willing to bet.

So I'm a libertarian because I think my generation are degenerates?

Or I'm in that generation so I'm also a degenerate?

 

[ACamp1900]

I don't know the exact #'s, but it ain't good. And it's getting worse.

1.) This only goes into a year ago...

2.) This is clearly right wing terrorist propgranda, why, I just recently saw our noble leader speak on this issue... he was quite clear... we are at the lowest point in years and the recovery is a total and complete success... suck it you conservative, racists...

 

[Irish Houstonian]

So I'm a libertarian because I think my generation are degenerates?

Or I'm in that generation so I'm also a degenerate?

Sometimes comments coming from under the bleachers don't make sense.

 

[Cackalacky]

Could be that since he is in your age bracket, he did not like the over generalized sentiment that he might be a degenerate. IDK.

 

[wizards8507]

Could be that since he is in your age bracket, he did not like the over generalized sentiment that he might be a degenerate. IDK.

Wouldn't that be a "myopic" statement focusing on "HIM"? Maybe he could start by realizing that not everyone is HIM.

Wizards8507, If you would tone down your myopic views a bit, the discussion may proceed a little better. Probably recognizing that not everyone is in fact "you" would be a great start.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

But that's just it. I wasn't born a young successful professional. I got here as a sum product of the choices I've made to this point. Like you say below, I'm not a "trust fund baby" with a silver spoon in my mouth. I'm not saying "it works" because it's great for a successful young professional. I'm saying "it works" because it allowed the son of a factory worker to become a successful young professional.

I guess you put more value on "luck" than I do. I went to Notre Dame because I was studying for the SAT while my friends were getting high under the bleachers. I went to Notre Dame because I joined the band, started the Student Senate, and lettered in two sports. Those things weren't "luck." They were my choices, and choices have consequences.

Though I think we probably have a lot in common, I don't want to make assumptions about you, so I'll start by explaining why I feel very lucky.

I was born into a middle class family in America, the most prosperous and powerful empire the world has ever seen. So right out the gate, I've already won the lottery. That was a very fortunate coincidence of place and time for me. I was born as a Caucasian male, which, statistically speaking, means I'm more likely to succeed (materially) than others, at least in modern America.

Then there's my family. I was born into a strong marriage; my parents are still happily married today, and they provided a great deal of love, stability, and resources to me during my up-bringing. They made serious financial sacrifices to send my siblings and I to the best private (Catholic) schools in Arizona, and I was raised to value education and hard-work.

That was all pure luck. I had nothing to do with where, when and into which family I was born, and based on my understanding of social science, those factors are overwhelmingly responsible for my success to date. Yes, I also made some good choices along the way in avoiding vices and making myself an attractive college applicant, but how much of that is due to the inherent nobility of my soul versus the good parenting I was fortunate enough to receive? If I'm being generous, I'd give myself 5-10% of the credit.

I vividly recall lying awake in my dorm-room bed in Keenan Hall sophomore year when I had this epiphany, and it's been pivotal in my formation thereafter. I'm one incredibly lucky motherf*cker, blessed far more than I had any right to expect. This is why individuals who manage to boot-strap themselves out of the worst situations are incredibly rare. We're social creatures, and Nurture >>> Nature; virtually every successful person can point to a group of people who taught them the habits necessary to build and maintain what they have.

 

[Cackalacky]

Adj. 1. myopic - unable to see distant objects clearly
nearsighted, shortsighted
2. myopic - lacking foresight or scope; "a short view of the problem"; "shortsighted policies"; "shortsighted critics derided the plan"; "myopic thinking"
shortsighted, unforesightful, short
improvident - not provident; not providing for the future

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Damn you Cack

 

[Cackalacky]

Though I think we probably have a lot in common, I don't want to make assumptions about you, so I'll start by explaining why I feel very lucky.

I was born into a middle class family in America, the most prosperous and powerful empire the world has ever seen. So right out the gate, I've already won the lottery. That was a very fortunate coincidence of place and time for me. I was born as a Caucasian male, which, statistically speaking, means I'm more likely to succeed (materially) than others.

Then there's my family. I was born into a strong marriage; my parents are still happily married today, and they provided a great deal of love, stability, and resources to me during my up-bringing. They made great financial sacrifices to send my siblings and I to the best private (Catholic) schools in Arizona, and I was raised to value education and hard-work.

That was all pure luck. I had nothing to do with where, when and into which family I was born, and based on my understanding of social science, those factors are overwhelmingly responsible for my success to date. Yes, I also made some good choices along the way in avoiding vices and making myself an attractive college applicant, but how much of that is due to the inherent nobility of my soul versus the good parenting I was fortunate enough to receive? If I'm being generous, I'd give myself 5-10% of the credit.

I vividly recall lying awake in my dorm-room bed in Keenan Hall sophomore year when I had this epiphany, and it's been pivotal in my formation thereafter. I'm one incredibly lucky motherf*cker, blessed far more than I had any right to expect. This is why individuals who manage to boot-strap themselves out of the worst situations are incredibly rare. We're social creatures, and Nurture >>> Nature; virtually every successful person can point to a group of people who taught them the habits necessary to build and maintain what they have.

Opposite of myopic.

 

[GoIrish41]

Though I think we probably have a lot in common, I don't want to make assumptions about you, so I'll start by explaining why I feel very lucky.

I was born into a middle class family in America, the most prosperous and powerful empire the world has ever seen. So right out the gate, I've already won the lottery. That was a very fortunate coincidence of place and time for me. I was born as a Caucasian male, which, statistically speaking, means I'm more likely to succeed (materially) than others, at least in modern America.

Then there's my family. I was born into a strong marriage; my parents are still happily married today, and they provided a great deal of love, stability, and resources to me during my up-bringing. They made serious financial sacrifices to send my siblings and I to the best private (Catholic) schools in Arizona, and I was raised to value education and hard-work.

That was all pure luck. I had nothing to do with where, when and into which family I was born, and based on my understanding of social science, those factors are overwhelmingly responsible for my success to date. Yes, I also made some good choices along the way in avoiding vices and making myself an attractive college applicant, but how much of that is due to the inherent nobility of my soul versus the good parenting I was fortunate enough to receive? If I'm being generous, I'd give myself 5-10% of the credit.

I vividly recall lying awake in my dorm-room bed in Keenan Hall sophomore year when I had this epiphany, and it's been pivotal in my formation thereafter. I'm one incredibly lucky motherf*cker, blessed far more than I had any right to expect. This is why individuals who manage to boot-strap themselves out of the worst situations are incredibly rare. We're social creatures, and Nurture >>> Nature; virtually every successful person can point to a group of people who taught them the habits necessary to build and maintain what they have.

Great post. Reps.

 

[Buster Bluth]

There it is. Whiskey and I were having an intelligent disagreement and then Buster stops by with a gem.

Oh please. You insulted tens of millions of people and lined your asinine beliefs with "no wonder people fail, they're degenerates." Ignorance doesn't even begin to describe it.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I'm saying "it works" because it allowed the son of a factory worker to become a successful young professional.

It works, for you. Even if it works for most people, that doesn't mean it's good enough.

A good economy has 4% unemployment; a bad economy has what, 7% unemployment? Even in a bad economy ~90% of people have jobs, and only ~1/4 of us are even "underemployed." The point is, it's just takes success not being available to a few more percentage points worth of people to have demonstrable effects. The anecdotal account of you having more "success" than your parents doesn't really mean much in the scheme of things. Over the last 30+ years we've put a lot of stress on our society as it has become less and less likely that the "American Dream" will be realized. That is extremely worrisome, even though the majority of people are doing just fine.

I guess you put more value on "luck" than I do. I went to Notre Dame because I was studying for the SAT while my friends were getting high under the bleachers. I went to Notre Dame because I joined the band, started the Student Senate, and lettered in two sports. Those things weren't "luck." They were my choices, and choices have consequences.

I don't want to discredit success. People generally earn their success and it's fair. The issues arise when we pretend that people growing up in the ghetto have any shot at all in life (and that whether we like it or not we are connected to them via society and our mutual interests), and that the 1% are becoming exponentially richer at the expense of people below them, to the point where CEOs and hedge fund managers often don't resemble job creators and the epitome of American capitalism, but sociopaths ignorant of their actions' ramifications.

 

[ACamp1900]

For the record... I grew up 'in the ghetto'... I worked hard... faced a ton of obstacles... still live 'in the ghetto' but do just fine... I'd consider myself a success... people in my circumstance have it harder I guess... but I'd prefer if we don't lie about it and say we have 'no shot at all in life'... it's not true.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

For the record... I grew up 'in the ghetto'... I worked hard... faced a ton of obstacles... still live 'in the ghetto' but do just fine... I'd consider myself a success... people in my circumstance have it harder I guess... but I'd prefer if we don't lie about it and say we have 'no shot at all in life'... it's not true.

Agreed. Tying back into the "God" thread, that's Determinism, which is repulsive on lots of levels and is really harmful to the human psyche, even if there's some truth in it.

Hard work and discipline may be significantly less important than other factors in determining success, but they're still prerequisites for accomplishing anything in life. Plenty of trust fund babies with every material advantage imaginable flame out because they were never taught how to act like normal human beings.

It's like the Parable of the Talents. From those to whom much is given, much is expected. No matter how much you start with, you've got a moral obligation to make the most of it.

 

[Cackalacky]

For the record... I grew up 'in the ghetto'... I worked hard... faced a ton of obstacles... still live 'in the ghetto' but do just fine... I'd consider myself a success... people in my circumstance have it harder I guess... but I'd prefer if we don't lie about it and say we have 'no shot at all in life'... it's not true.

Same for me. I had a lot to over come that was not my fault and I made some good choices for the most part.

 

[ACamp1900]

Same for me. I had a lot to over come that was not my fault and I made some good choices for the most part.

To Whiskeys previous point I did have one big thing going for me, my parents stayed married and off drugs... ( I smh thinking back and seeing through adult eyes what my parents dealt with) .looking back a lot of my friends missed one or both of those... So luck plays a part somewhere, For all of us... Ultimately we all Make our own choices though, and are accountable... Regardless of economic background. I could have easily fell into the meth game for example, very easily, i chose not to. Just my feelings.

 

[Cackalacky]

To Whiskeys previous point I did have one big thing going for me, my parents stayed married and off drugs... ( I smh thinking back and seeing through adult eyes what my parents dealt with) .looking back a lot of my friends missed one or both of those... So luck plays a part somewhere, For all of us... Ultimately we all Make our own choices though, and are accountable... Regardless of economic background. I could have easily fell into the meth game for example, very easily, i chose not to. Just my feelings.

Ditto. I lost 10 friends from HS between freshmen to senior years Due to drugs, alcohol, and general behavior issues. I lost another 4 of my HS friends by my sophomore year in college. I could have easily been one of them several times.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Since people are sharing stories... growing up in the ghetto in a stable family environment isn't the same as growing up in a shitty neighborhood and family.

Don't have the exact numbers on this but way more of my friends in the former group did better in life than those in the latter group.

Edit: Acamp is on to it.

 

[Black Irish]

Wizards8507,
If you would tone down your myopic views a bit, the discussion may proceed a little better. Probably recognizing that not everyone is in fact "you" would be a great start.

I think that wizard is offering himself as an example as to what is possible for the 99% if they work hard and strive for something better. I don't think he is positing that his accomplishments are something unique and special. But I can let wizard confirm/deny as he sees fit; I'll only presume to speak for him to a certain extent.

 

[Bluto]

To Whiskeys previous point I did have one big thing going for me, my parents stayed married and off drugs... ( I smh thinking back and seeing through adult eyes what my parents dealt with) .looking back a lot of my friends missed one or both of those... So luck plays a part somewhere, For all of us... Ultimately we all Make our own choices though, and are accountable... Regardless of economic background. I could have easily fell into the meth game for example, very easily, i chose not to. Just my feelings.

Good post.

 

[wizards8507]

I think that wizard is offering himself as an example as to what is possible for the 99% if they work hard and strive for something better. I don't think he is positing that his accomplishments are something unique and special. But I can let wizard confirm/deny as he sees fit; I'll only presume to speak for him to a certain extent.

That's exactly correct.

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[chicago51]

But that's just it. I wasn't born a young successful professional. I got here as a sum product of the choices I've made to this point. Like you say below, I'm not a "trust fund baby" with a silver spoon in my mouth. I'm not saying "it works" because it's great for a successful young professional. I'm saying "it works" because it allowed the son of a factory worker to become a successful young professional.


I guess you put more value on "luck" than I do. I went to Notre Dame because I was studying for the SAT while my friends were getting high under the bleachers. I went to Notre Dame because I joined the band, started the Student Senate, and lettered in two sports. Those things weren't "luck." They were my choices, and choices have consequences.

Yes you have gotten to where you are on what you have done. I would argue that you have probably worked harder than most of the 1 percent particularly the 0.1 percent. Being a high regarded brain surgeon for example gets you into the top 2 or 3 percent. That takes hard work. Most Americans work much harder than Sam Zell..

Yes the 1 percent have Steve Jobs who had a great mind but Apple also games the tax system. One percent companies love to threaten state and local governments to give them incentives or they will leave. Like Boeing moving from Seattle to Chicago because they Chicago promise a bunch of local tax breaks. They are paid in stock option therefore pay a lower tax rates.

Does a CEO work 450 x as hard as the average worker?

This isn't envy coming from me here it is about what kind of country we should be. Why should anyone care about income inequality? Because if you compare any social index sucide, homicides, divorce, teen pregnancy, percentage of poplulation as convicted felons, etc it all has a direct corrallation to income inequality.

 

[chicago51]

A good read on inequality is: Inequality and Social Dsyfunction a Harvard study; authors are Richard Wickenson and Kate Pickett. It relates to my previous post. I'd post it but I can't pott PDFshwith the smart phone.

 

[Black Irish]

Yes you have gotten to where you are on what you have done. I would argue that you have probably worked harder than most of the 1 percent particularly the 0.1 percent. Being a high regarded brain surgeon for example gets you into the top 2 or 3 percent. That takes hard work. Most Americans work much harder than Sam Zell..

Yes the 1 percent have Steve Jobs who had a great mind but Apple also games the tax system. One percent companies love to threaten state and local governments to give them incentives or they will leave. Like Boeing moving from Seattle to Chicago because they Chicago promise a bunch of local tax breaks. They are paid in stock option therefore pay a lower tax rates.

Does a CEO work 450 x as hard as the average worker?

This isn't envy coming from me here it is about what kind of country we should be. Why should anyone care about income inequality? Because if you compare any social index sucide, homicides, divorce, teen pregnancy, percentage of poplulation as convicted felons, etc it all has a direct corrallation to income inequality.

I am very interested to see some hard data and stats that proves the bolded.

 

[DillonHall]

Yes you have gotten to where you are on what you have done. I would argue that you have probably worked harder than most of the 1 percent particularly the 0.1 percent. Being a high regarded brain surgeon for example gets you into the top 2 or 3 percent. That takes hard work.

Actually, the top 1% of households in the US earn about $400,000. Most surgeons make well above that.

 

[wizards8507]

I am very interested to see some hard data and stats that proves the bolded.

It's correlated but completely coincidental. The very rich and the very poor both live in cities. Cities have crime and all the other social ills he talked about. That's as deep as it goes.

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