Peter King Comments on Helmets

[Rambler09]

It's not fair to jump right into calling him a douche. Come on guys. He raises a legitimate point about spending money on luxurious things. That needs to be pointed out before we move on to criticizing his comment.

One problem with his comment is that the cost of the gold is minor compared to the tens of millions (or hundreds, I suppose) of dollars that Notre Dame has spent on its athletics programs over the last decade (not to mention that if he followed his criticism further it would lead him to conclude that the billions of dollars spent on professional and semi-professional athletics each year could be MUCH better spent... including the money people spend on sports entertainment that ultimately pays his salary). If he was seriously concerned about spending money that could be better used for humanitarian causes, then he would be committed to going far beyond the cost of reused gold used in ND's football helmets.

What becomes clear, though, is that he was just trying to score some cheap points at the expense of Notre Dame. The initial point is not really problematic itself... but it becomes problematic when taken in context.

 

[peredonov]

It's not fair to jump right into calling him a douche. Come on guys. He raises a legitimate point about spending money on luxurious things. That needs to be pointed out before we move on to criticizing his comment.

One problem with his comment is that the cost of the gold is minor compared to the tens of millions (or hundreds, I suppose) of dollars that Notre Dame has spent on its athletics programs over the last decade (not to mention that if he followed his criticism further it would lead him to conclude that the billions of dollars spent on professional and semi-professional athletics each year could be MUCH better spent... including the money people spend on sports entertainment that ultimately pays his salary). If he was seriously concerned about spending money that could be better used for humanitarian causes, then he would be committed to going far beyond the cost of reused gold used in ND's football helmets.

What becomes clear, though, is that he was just trying to score some cheap points at the expense of Notre Dame. The initial point is not really problematic itself... but it becomes problematic when taken in context.

Wow. Thanks. That's what Catholic charity is all about....

My money is going directly into ND's coffers through tuition and tickets, etc. I'm married and we chose not to invest in blood diamonds, gold, or anything like that and spent the last ten years overseas doing charitable work - douchey activities I understand, but somebody has to do them.

If one cannot legitimately criticize or question the activities of an institution or the institution itself, how are we to honestly gauge it? I called into question gilded gold and was called a douche. I think we all need to question our priorities. Even St. Paul's in 2 Corinthians 13:5 claims that indeed faith is to be tested and not dogmatically held. Something I see nothing of here.

Subjective value is just that, subjective. To you the gold is an homage to somebody. Do you think that that somebody, given all the things I assume you believe about that person, really cares or wants gold on a dome? How small. Petty. Yes, vulgar. To someone without a house, its vulgar extravagance.

 

[BGIF]

Wow. Thanks. That's what Catholic charity is all about....

My money is going directly into ND's coffers through tuition and tickets, etc. I'm married and we chose not to invest in blood diamonds, gold, or anything like that and spent the last ten years overseas doing charitable work - douchey activities I understand, but somebody has to do them.

If one cannot legitimately criticize or question the activities of an institution or the institution itself, how are we to honestly gauge it? I called into question gilded gold and was called a douche. I think we all need to question our priorities. Even St. Paul's in 2 Corinthians 13:5 claims that indeed faith is to be tested and not dogmatically held. Something I see nothing of here.

Subjective value is just that, subjective. To you the gold is an homage to somebody. Do you think that that somebody, given all the things I assume you believe about that person, really cares or wants gold on a dome? How small. Petty. Yes, vulgar. To someone without a house, its vulgar extravagance.

1) The "douche" comment was directed specifically at Peter King, a sports writer, who is named in the title of the thread. Here's the quote Rambler 09 was commenting on.

Peter King is, and has always been, a blowhard douchebag. ...

Do a FIND "Douche" Search in this thread. YOU DON'T APPEAR, even though you took it upon yourself to assume you did. That's either a big chip YOU placed on your shoulders or a tad self-righteousness. In either case you owe an apology.


2) Congratulations on your overseas charitable work. But I have a few questions your commentary sparked.

Why did you and your wife waste the money on passports and overseas travel?

How many hungry could that have fed in South Bend, NYC, or rural America, or even the town you lived in?

Why do you attend an expensive, prestigious university like UND when you could get a much more economical education at a state institution or a humble, less vulgar, local Catholic college? How many meals could that provide? I sure you waived any UND financial assistance or scholarships so they can be made available to those less fortunate than you.


3) Here's the contact information for ND's Director of Game Day Operations, Mike Seamon. (Yeah, I know, how many meals could his salary provide if he was a $1 a year man.)

Drop Mike a line, he's asked for feedback, and tell him you like to see the team AND ticket holders donate their clothes especially that offensive ND gear and those Sprint towels at the gate when they enter the stadium. Let him know that the TEAM AND FANS wearing sackcloth and ashes would be a good start to ending, and atoning for, Notre Dame's petty, profligate polices.

Be sure to copy Father Jenkins and Mr. Affleck-Graves.


Mr. Mike Seamon
Director Notre Dame Game Day Operations
C113 Joyce Center, Notre Dame, IN 46556
Phone: 1-877-ND1-FANS
Email: gameday@nd.edu

 

[BobD]

It DOES give a bad impression though. When I first came here, the front page of ND's "giving back" power point had a close-up pic of the Golden Dome. I wondered then, as I do know how many people could be fed with the gold from it? Or from all of the gold and $$$ in Rome.

that shouldn't be meant to take away from the good things accomplished.

Are you bringing this up because it's actual gold? You could say this about almost anything, it doesn't have to be a precious metal. How much do the shirts on our backs cost? Even if we bought them at a thrift store, we could have probably got them cheaper at a garage sale, then donated the extra change. How about the computers we're currently using? The food we ate today?

How many people benefit from the gold on the dome? The miner, the refinery, the wholesaler, the retailer, the contractors....all of their families......oh, and let's not forget their children that want to go to college.


Out of curiosity, who and what pays your tuiton? Could you go to a less expensive school?


Hey, I just thought of something else........shouldn't you be out in a tent occupying Wall St or something?

 

[BobD]

1) The "douche" comment was directed specifically at Peter King, a sports writer, who is named in the title of the thread. Here's the quote Rambler 09 was commenting on.



Do a FIND "Douche" Search in this thread. YOU DON'T APPEAR, even though you took it upon yourself to assume you did. That's either a big chip YOU placed on your shoulders or a tad self-righteousness. In either case you owe an apology.


2) Congratulations on your overseas charitable work. But I have a few questions your commentary sparked.

Why did you and your wife waste the money on passports and overseas travel?

How many hungry could that have fed in South Bend, NYC, or rural America, or even the town you lived in?

Why do you attend an expensive, prestigious university like UND when you could get a much more economical education at a state institution or a humble, less vulgar, local Catholic college? How many meals could that provide? I sure you waived any UND financial assistance or scholarships so they can be made available to those less fortunate than you.


3) Here's the contact information for ND's Director of Game Day Operations, Mike Seamon. (Yeah, I know, how many meals could his salary provide if he was a $1 a year man.)

Drop Mike a line, he's asked for feedback, and tell him you like to see the team AND ticket holders donate their clothes especially that offensive ND gear and those Sprint towels at the gate when they enter the stadium. Let him know that the TEAM AND FANS wearing sackcloth and ashes would be a good start to ending, and atoning for, Notre Dame's petty, profligate polices.

Be sure to copy Father Jenkins and Mr. Affleck-Graves.


Mr. Mike Seamon
Director Notre Dame Game Day Operations
C113 Joyce Center, Notre Dame, IN 46556
Phone: 1-877-ND1-FANS
Email: gameday@nd.edu

Wow, you said it much better than me!

 

[Jason Pham]

Subjective value is just that, subjective. To you the gold is an homage to somebody. Do you think that that somebody, given all the things I assume you believe about that person, really cares or wants gold on a dome? How small. Petty. Yes, vulgar. To someone without a house, its vulgar extravagance.

It is mistaken to suggest that the the dome is golden for our lady and it is mistaken to suggest that I say that. To dismiss subjective value merely because it is subjective would lead to undesirable consequences. You say you are married, not just to any woman, but to your wife in particular. It would be safe for me to assume, I imagine, that she cannot be replaced. Objectively, she might be; someone out there might look and act similarly. But the idea of a spouse's replaceability is absurd because beyond their objective worth and qualities, we place a subjective value to their existence based on a bond which is ultimately tied into our very personhood, so that their value to us, their very existence, is inextricable from how we "feel" about them. Now you may not agree that the golden dome is not so intimately tied with the personhood or character of the university that it should hold any viable subjective value, but that is not entirely or even substantially ours to decide. It would be a dangerous day when we can appropriate what belongs to another because we judge that that there is no protectable subjective value in their having it.

 

[peredonov]

nm

 

[peredonov]

It is mistaken to suggest that the the dome is golden for our lady and it is mistaken to suggest that I say that. To dismiss subjective value merely because it is subjective would lead to undesirable consequences. You say you are married, not just to any woman, but to your wife in particular. It would be safe for me to assume, I imagine, that she cannot be replaced. Objectively, she might be; someone out there might look and act similarly. But the idea of a spouse's replaceability is absurd because beyond their objective worth and qualities, we place a subjective value to their existence based on a bond which is ultimately tied into our very personhood, so that their value to us, their very existence, is inextricable from how we "feel" about them. Now you may not agree that the golden dome is not so intimately tied with the personhood or character of the university that it should hold any viable subjective value, but that is not entirely or even substantially ours to decide. It would be a dangerous day when we can appropriate what belongs to another because we judge that that there is no protectable subjective value in their having it.

You said homage to the patroness of the school. I assumed you meant Notre Dame du Lac, or Our Lady of the Lake (and not of the Arthur/Excaliber variety). And yes, I am married to my wife in particular - sorry had to, not making light of your point.

I think I see where you are going with your point about subjectivity, but am not clear. In any case, I would agree that the golden dome is tied to the IDENTITY of the University, but not the character. We used to drive past it on the highway all the time and I couldn't wait to find it and point it out. That was when I was much much younger however.

I submit that if the gold were removed from the dome, nothing about the character or quality of teaching would change. I think your last line is something of a straw man, as I never suggested the appropriation of anything.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Regilding the Dome // News // Notre Dame Magazine // University of Notre Dame
$300,000 to regild in 2005, before gold prices shot through the roof (or dome). I don't think Martin's or Meijer hold that much in food in one week. I understand your point however, and i know first-hand that ND does a tremendous amount to help people. They simply don't need that gold or the money to regild and it could help others. Also, I'm an adult and I'm very over the gold in the helmets. It's unnecessary, especially in a post-industrial society and as Diogenes said, it's "mere affectation".

Just wanted to make it clear that the gold did not cost $300k

All the 23.9-karat gold leaf expected to be expended on the Dome, the statue of Mary and the pedestal in between amounts to less than eight ounces, yet the bill for gold materials for the project was estimated at $109,000.

They simply don't need that gold or the money to regild and it could help others. Also, I'm an adult and I'm very over the gold in the helmets. It's unnecessary, especially in a post-industrial society and as Diogenes said, it's "mere affectation".

I assume then by this statement that you do not buy anything that is not "needed." Going to a ND football game is not something that is "needed" so I would expect that you do not attend games and that you gladly donate the $75 to charity.

Wow. Thanks. That's what Catholic charity is all about....

My money is going directly into ND's coffers through tuition and tickets, etc. I'm married and we chose not to invest in blood diamonds, gold, or anything like that and spent the last ten years overseas doing charitable work - douchey activities I understand, but somebody has to do them.

You still haven't answered these questions from BGIF:

2) Congratulations on your overseas charitable work. But I have a few questions your commentary sparked.

Why did you and your wife waste the money on passports and overseas travel?

How many hungry could that have fed in South Bend, NYC, or rural America, or even the town you lived in?

Why do you attend an expensive, prestigious university like UND when you could get a much more economical education at a state institution or a humble, less vulgar, local Catholic college? How many meals could that provide? I sure you waived any UND financial assistance or scholarships so they can be made available to those less fortunate than you.

If one cannot legitimately criticize or question the activities of an institution or the institution itself, how are we to honestly gauge it? I called into question gilded gold and was called a douche. I think we all need to question our priorities. Even St. Paul's in 2 Corinthians 13:5 claims that indeed faith is to be tested and not dogmatically held. Something I see nothing of here.

First off, no one called you a douche. Secondly, I get your point but don't expect to come on a Notre Dame fan site and not be heavily critisized for questioning the ethics of our beloved university.

Subjective value is just that, subjective. To you the gold is an homage to somebody. Do you think that that somebody, given all the things I assume you believe about that person, really cares or wants gold on a dome? How small. Petty. Yes, vulgar. To someone without a house, its vulgar extravagance.

Really? The fact that the Dome has gold leaf in it makes it vulgarly extravagant to a homeless person? So do you believe that if it was just merely painted a gold color that this perception would then change? How many homeless people actually know there is real gold on the Dome?



This is why the Dome is still gilded with gold:

After inspecting the ruins, Notre Dame founder Father Edward Sorin, CSC, took the blame. Sorin, then 65, said he was responsible for the blaze—the origins of which were never pinpointed— for having had too puny a vision for an institution named after the mother of God.

The Main Building would be built, he promised, and this time not with some crummy painted white dome on top. It would be crowned with a golden dome and a golden statue, bigger than before, “so that everyone who passes this way can look up and see why this place succeeds.”

 

[Jason Pham]

You said homage to the patroness of the school. I assumed you meant Notre Dame du Lac, or Our Lady of the Lake (and not of the Arthur/Excaliber variety). And yes, I am married to my wife in particular - sorry had to, not making light of your point.

I think I see where you are going with your point about subjectivity, but am not clear. In any case, I would agree that the golden dome is tied to the IDENTITY of the University, but not the character. We used to drive past it on the highway all the time and I couldn't wait to find it and point it out. That was when I was much much younger however.

I submit that if the gold were removed from the dome, nothing about the character or quality of teaching would change. I think your last line is something of a straw man, as I never suggested the appropriation of anything.

My point is that some things mean more to the person to whom it belongs than it might seem to others. To me, your wife is just another human person. To you, she's more than that. To you, the gold on the dome isn't a tradition worth keeping; to the university, because of tradition among other things, it is. You "wonder" how many people might fed with the gold on the dome. My point about subjectivity is that because it is so tied into the identity of the university, you would be asking the university to forfeit something tied into its identity. Undoubtedly, the quality of its education is at the very center of the university's identity and this would not change if the gold flakes were given away to charity. But just because my thoughts, beliefs, or ethics are at the core of my being, doesn't mean I'm any more willing, nor should I be any more willing, to cut off my limbs (or if you don't believe the dome is so intimately tied, to give away a keepsake, such as a wedding ring, handed down to me after generations in the family).

Listen, I appreciate and empathize with your desire to be charitable. But I cannot agree with you that subjective value should be dismissed and that things held onto by their owners just for their subjective value should be given away to charity. I think the point being made about your going to a school like Notre Dame when at half the price you could get a comparable education elsewhere for much lesser price is on point. If there is no subjective value and charity should be prioritized, nobody should go to Notre Dame if they have to pay for it. We should instead head up to Ann Arbor for the academics, find a Newman center for the religion if that's our thing, and give the rest away to charity. I don't think that's a reasonable suggestion.

 

[IrishinSyria]

It's part of the pagentry of college and, more specifically, ND football. If you calculate the value of free air time ND gets on TV networks showing the dome or the helmets, it would total millions of dollars. This contributes to thE success of ND football as an economic generator, which in turn has fueled the University's drive to become one of the elite American academic institutions as well as a model of giving back to the global community. In short, the Gold helmets are a good investment, and you ARE a pretentious douche bag.

 

[Veer option]

What a buffoon, he paints a picture like ND keeps a gaggle of malnourished, tortured leprechauns in bondage and every time ND needs some gold. A priest goes down into the dungeon and skins one alive to harness the gold in its blood stream.

 

[tadman95]

It's not fair to jump right into calling him a douche.

Thought he was a douche way before his comment. Just sayin...

 

[ClausentoTate]

Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This argument is ridiculous.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This argument is ridiculous.

Agreed. We've had gold in the helmets for decades. This is an enormous non-issue.

 

[Rambler09]

Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This argument is ridiculous.

You may be right that this argument is ridiculous... but I hope you realize that invoking reductio ad absurdum in the way you did is completely incorrect. I'm not trying to start anything personal here, I just think it is important to clarify that that is not an appropriate use of raa. It is not a phrase to be used to point out that something is absurd, but rather a mode of argumentation by which one can prove that something is absurd.

 

[ClausentoTate]

You may be right that this argument is ridiculous... but I hope you realize that invoking reductio ad absurdum in the way you did is completely incorrect. I'm not trying to start anything personal here, I just think it is important to clarify that that is not an appropriate use of raa. It is not a phrase to be used to point out that something is absurd, but rather a mode of argumentation by which one can prove that something is absurd.

The pro-dome side is using the argumentation method. No harm, no foul.

 

[jason_h537]

Why is it every time someone questions anything about ND he is a POS? Most of the time the quotes are misinterpreted or taken out of context by posters. As an NFL analyst who does not follow ND, he was probably just making an observation. God forbid anyone have an opinion.

 

[dre1919]

I saw this and thought two things immediately:

1. They've used dust salvaged from the resurfacing of the dome for years, just flicking the dust over freshly painted helmets (which is what I prefer to these new super shiny ones).

2. Untold riches not being spent on others? Welcome to Catholicism baby!

Ok, ok...that last one was just a funny thought and probably not even true. Don't get all butt hurt about it.