Oversigning Recruits

[Legacy]

Finishing up on Ole Miss 2012-14

Finishing up on Ole Miss 2012-14

Hugh Freeze was hired Dec 5, 2011. Only seven players had committed to Ole Miss. By signing day, he had eleven more commitments.

The 2009 class of 37 had shrunk to ten. Attrition had shrunk the 2010 class of 24 to sixteen. While that class had three grayshirts, it also had five Juco players whose eligibility had just been completed. That would leave fourteeen players from 2010. The 2011 class of 29 was down to 24.

From the 2012 class, the eighteen recruits helped, but Ole Miss was at only 75 scholarship players.

But Freeze needed to get a larger class for 2013 to replace the losses in the prior classes plus the seven Juco players graduating. After graduations, Ole Miss has 53 scholarship players. He signed twenty-seven players (two did not qualify) for 2013 - five count back to the 2012 class of eighteen. Freeze was at eighty scholarship players.

He had scholarships to give - one to a transfer in, another to a recruit signing late and a third to a walk-on in 2013.

The 2014 class of 25 (one did not qualify) caught Ole Miss up with all the attrition and graduations from the previous classes. One of that class accepted a grayshirt, so they were finally at eighty-five. The class of 2015 has sixteen commitments with fifteen Seniors graduating, as Freeze is now conserving his scholarships.

In comparison to Notre Dame, Ole Miss signed five more recruits than ND in the 2012-14 classes. However, ND has six more committed recruits in the class of 2015 than Ole Miss. Over the four classes from 2012-15, they may sign about the same amounts.

Over those three years, there were only two transfers at the end of spring semester 2012 and two transfers before the 2013 season.

 

[Legacy]

LSU - Continuing the SEC West analysis of oversigning

LSU - Continuing the SEC West analysis of oversigning

The class numbers look like a possible oversigning issue - 125 over the last five classes (98 over the last four-2011-14). They've signed 52 recruits in the last two years.

But the signing classes look fairly constant - 27, 23, 23, 27, 25.

With the new SEC rules, LSU would have been restricted to 50 total with the last two classes unless they need them to get to 85, which was the case.

Where did everyone go? Mainly early entrants to the NFL draft - 18 in the past two draft classes! There's not much churn due to JC recruits - 5 in the past five years. Miles generally recruits players out of high school, but in a smaller area - primarily Louisiana, some Texas (eleven of his fifteen recruits so far this year are from Louisiana (8) and Texas (3)).

Clearance and grayshirting were last an issue in the 2012 class - 2 grayshirts and four to JUCO. This past class only one was awaiting NCAA clearance by August.

Transfers out - nine from 2010, eight from 2011, five from 2012, three from 2013. Miles has six fifth years and nine from the 2011 class (six of whom are eligible for fifth years) plus three Juco players who will run out of eligibility.

So, they may not have as many early entrants to the NFL draft and will probably offer as many of the eligible fourth years as possible another year - unless they close out the 2015 class strong.

So there does not seem to be a great oversigning issue or lots of pressure that may result in transfers of Juniors.

 

[woolybug25]

I would like to hear some clarification on quite a few points here:

Coaches usually are not surprised by those career-ending injuries when they are thinking about incoming class size or inviting someone back for a fifth year. They also like to have a scholarship or two open to offer a deserving walk-on, ND gave out four this year after invitations for fifth years.

Which one is it? Coaches aren't surprised by injury and plan classes accordingly, or they like to save some (a terrible strategy, imo) for possible walk-on's? Those are opposing strategies.

Looking at injury lists prior to the bowls and eliminating those who are questionable for the bowls, who have been dismissed/suspensions/left team, you end up with the "out for the season" injuries. ND had five. Three more are questionable or doubtful. Plus the four academic issues.

About ten teams or more have five season-ending injuries like the Irish. Here's those with more:
VaTech - 11
Maryland - 10
Nebraska, Ohio State, Utah - 8
Florida, Iowa, Minnesota, Texas, Utah State - 7
East Carolina, Georgia, Houston, Miamia(Fl), Pittsburgh - 6

Whether those will end up being career-ening injuries or not remains to be seen.

This completely throws away the fact that we lose kids every year from non injury related things like the Frozen5, suspensions like Golson's and late weirdness like Tee Shepard. Add those in and we are losing far more kids that the schools listed above. Furthermore, many of those schools started with more kids on their roster and closer to the magic 85 number. I don't see how you conveniently leave those out when you are looking at the debate of how many kids to take.

When you think about adding one more in your recruiting classes per year, how much difference would that make? The season is over by Signing Day. A career-ending injury could happen in the spring, but most are in the fall and cannot be planned for.

A big difference apparently. Since damn near every big time school is willing to do it. You have to have warm bodies, right now (and as long as I can remember) we do not. If we would have oversigned this year, by the time that we have to meet the 85 limit, we would have had plenty of room for extra guys.

I guess i'm just worn out on the whole oversigning debate. If we were meeting the 85 every year and getting beat by teams signing more kids illegally, then I get it... but that's not what is happening. We are severely undersigning, losing the injury/attrition battle and managing our roster to numbers below the legal limit. Until we even try to hit our ceiling of players, I don't get why anyone would be concerned with other schools oversigning. Even if they just met the 85 limit every year, they are still putting 5-10 more kids on their squad than Notre Dame.

I'm a fan of looking in the mirror first and fixing our issues before crying about what other teams are legally doing.

 

[Legacy]

Clarification on Wooly's points (above)

Clarification on Wooly's points (above)

First, Oversigning to me is over-recruiting an incoming class that negatively impacts existing scholarship players, e.g. forced transfers, med scholarship and greyshirts to those who just signed LOI.

That said, my above analyses have been posted to determine if specific SEC schools - some with high total numbers of recruits signed over four or five years - actually ended up over eighty-five and, secondly, had those negative impacts.

Whether ND recruits over eighty-five and should accept more LOIs on the incoming class to me is a separate question because I doubt they would force anyone to leave. That may well boil down to the four year vs one year scholarship issue.

"Which one is it? Coaches aren't surprised by injury and plan classes accordingly, or they like to save some (a terrible strategy, imo) for possible walk-on's? Those are opposing strategies."
---By this, I meant that by NSDay coaches have determined which of their players have severe or career-enging injuries, plan for that, and have determined which student-athletes will be offered a fifth year, weighing an extra recruit vs one more recruit.
-- That extra recruit may well be a three star or another recruit not necessarally at a position of need. Perhaps the walk-ons getting a scholarship also do not impact the two deep, perhaps just special teams.
-- Fifth year players or players who can meet admissions statuses and challenge for positions down the road would not, in my mind, be forced out by a walk-on getting a scholarship.

"This (injury list of schools with players out for the year) completely throws away the fact that we lose kids every year from non injury related things like the Frozen5, suspensions like Golson's and late weirdness like Tee Shepard. Add those in and we are losing far more kids that the schools listed above. Furthermore, many of those schools started with more kids on their roster and closer to the magic 85 number. I don't see how you conveniently leave those out when you are looking at the debate of how many kids to take."
-- Of course, your point is true. But I did not want to compare apples to oranges. We had some non-injury losses. However, I had no information on other schools, so I did not want to provide our total losses with other schools' injuries only resulting in season-ening injuries.

"A big difference apparently. Since damn near every big time school is willing to do it. You have to have warm bodies, right now (and as long as I can remember) we do not. If we would have oversigned this year, by the time that we have to meet the 85 limit, we would have had plenty of room for extra guys."
-- Meeting the eighty-five limit with "warm bodies" would not be something I think would have made much difference in our win-loss record this year.

"I'm a fan of looking in the mirror first and fixing our issues before crying about what other teams are legally doing."
-- I am, too. Every team legally gets to eighty-five by the beginning of fall camp as per NCAA regs.
-- But the response to the oversigning that some "cry" about may be both moot, legal and just a business. Sure, some players are forced out, e.g. transfers, med scholarships, but they have had their opportunity to make the two deep after three years and did not.

Which teams and coaches do this in the SEC, as an example, is the issue and point of my posts. Whether ND overrecruits as you have urged is another question. NCAA football is definitely a business. Whether football recruits - or "student-athletes" - should, in the end, be treated like employees is another question, too.

 

[TheChosen1]

Keith Arnold‏@KeithArnold

It's been 3-plus seasons since SEC legislated Oversigning. Funny how things work out when "roster management" is evened out.

 

[MNIrishman]

Keith Arnold‏@KeithArnold

But, but, it's not really an advantage!

 

[ThePiombino]

Keith Arnold‏@KeithArnold

I love how Keith makes no bones about coming out swinging.

 

[Legacy]

South Carolina Soaps

South Carolina Soaps

If Alabama recruiting is tired and predictable (25 every year), South Carolina recruiting has had twists at every turn the past two years.

The numbers for five years of classes, 2010-14 (from Rivals):
- Alabama - 129 signed, 124 enrolled
- Notre Dame - 107 signed, 105 enrolled
- South Carolina - 122 signed, 105 enrolled

That's right. South Carolina has signed nearly the number of players Alabama signs, but their enrollees are the same as the Irish.

Being recruiting coordinator at South Carolina must feel like guiding river logs (or herding cats, if you prefer).

In 2014, four players graduated, four were early entrants to the NFL draft in January, and seven transferred in the spring. With a class of twenty-one signed, Carolina would hit eighty-one - one short of NCAA penalty eighty-two. Then six of their 2014 class did not qualify. Spurrier gave out seven scholarships to walk-ons. This brought his seventy-five scholarship players to eighty-two.

For 2015, he clearly needs more "warm bodies" and the 2015 class currently sits at twenty-seven. So far, sixteen seniors are graduating in the spring (including five of the walk-ons), one more graduated early, one left the team, and one is expected to enter the NFL draft early. If everything stays the same (not likely), Carolina is two over the eighty-five limit (scholarship sanctions have ended).

Getting more than twenty-seven has for the 2015 class presented challenges. Six verbals have decommitted. One recruit had his scholarship withdrawn due to legal problems.

Still, under the SEC limits now, Carolina could take at least a class of 29. All signees are considered "counters" whether they enroll or not. Twenty-nine plus last year's twenty-one signees would bring Carolina to the two year running total of fifty. The exception is if they need more signees to get to eighty-five. They also have some wiggle room with two of those one year scholarships to walk-ons given to current Juniors.

Carolina is running out of targets for the 2015 class(link) Twenty-seven may be the best they can do, if all stay committed. No uncommitted recruits are visiting in January and the two with "Warm" interests have never visited.

Attrition may well happen, as every year. Will all of the class of 2015 qualify? Stay tuned.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Can someone find Tennessee's numbers? It's crazy to me how they could bring in 32 for 2014 and currently have 27 for 2015.

 

[Legacy]

Can someone find Tennessee's numbers? It's crazy to me how they could bring in 32 for 2014 and currently have 27 for 2015.

Coming up in the next few days. As an indirect indication of scholarship availability, Butch Jones just gave a scholarship to a walk-on and another to a fifth year transfer in addition to having a current class of twenty-seven while pursuing more targets.

Anyone else can feel free to post.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Woolybug has the right attitude. Start signing 25-men classes and hover around the 85 schollies (obviously there's some attrition w/ injuries, etc) and then see how we compare to the rest of the nation. After a coach's first year, there should be no excuse at not signing a full class (assuming there are no sanctions).

It's rare that a 5th year guy is a true difference maker. It's usually the guy that comes back for his 4th year that is a huge coup (i.e., the 6-star recruit like Mike Floyd, Manti Te'o, Tyler Eifert, etc). Those are the guys that truly have a tough decision to make. 5th year guys still bring something to the table, but it's usually experienced depth...which as witnessed this year, is truly needed.

I don't know how truly Kendall Moore's 5th year would've helped this year, but I wish ND had the chance to find out b/c the depth was so depleted. I'm most interested to see what happens to Jarrett Grace b/c it's likely all dependent on his health. He would be a 5th year correct?

 

[Irish YJ]

Coming up in the next few days. As an indirect indication of scholarship availability, Butch Jones just gave a scholarship to a walk-on and another to a fifth year transfer in addition to having a current class of twenty-seven while pursuing more targets.

Anyone else can feel free to post.

Scout.com: Football Recruiting

He's brought in several JCs, not sure how that translates from a math / eligibility perspective. I know they've lost a few here and there for grades. A couple other transfers.

 

[Cackalacky]

If Alabama recruiting is tired and predictable (25 every year), South Carolina recruiting has had twists at every turn the past two years.

The numbers for five years of classes, 2010-14 (from Rivals):
- Alabama - 129 signed, 124 enrolled
- Notre Dame - 107 signed, 105 enrolled
- South Carolina - 122 signed, 105 enrolled

That's right. South Carolina has signed nearly the number of players Alabama signs, but their enrollees are the same as the Irish.

Being recruiting coordinator at South Carolina must feel like guiding river logs (or herding cats, if you prefer).

In 2014, four players graduated, four were early entrants to the NFL draft in January, and seven transferred in the spring. With a class of twenty-one signed, Carolina would hit eighty-one - one short of NCAA penalty eighty-two. Then six of their 2014 class did not qualify. Spurrier gave out seven scholarships to walk-ons. This brought his seventy-five scholarship players to eighty-two.

For 2015, he clearly needs more "warm bodies" and the 2015 class currently sits at twenty-seven. So far, sixteen seniors are graduating in the spring (including five of the walk-ons), one more graduated early, one left the team, and one is expected to enter the NFL draft early. If everything stays the same (not likely), Carolina is two over the eighty-five limit (scholarship sanctions have ended).

Getting more than twenty-seven has for the 2015 class presented challenges. Six verbals have decommitted. One recruit had his scholarship withdrawn due to legal problems.

Still, under the SEC limits now, Carolina could take at least a class of 29. All signees are considered "counters" whether they enroll or not. Twenty-nine plus last year's twenty-one signees would bring Carolina to the two year running total of fifty. The exception is if they need more signees to get to eighty-five. They also have some wiggle room with two of those one year scholarships to walk-ons given to current Juniors.

Carolina is running out of targets for the 2015 class(link) Twenty-seven may be the best they can do, if all stay committed. No uncommitted recruits are visiting in January and the two with "Warm" interests have never visited.

Attrition may well happen, as every year. Will all of the class of 2015 qualify? Stay tuned.

You can add Jody Fuller, Shaq Roland and Kwinton Smith to these numbers as well. I think Ahmad Christian too. I believe all of these guys were from the 2011 class.

 

[scUM Hater]

Woolybug has the right attitude. Start signing 25-men classes and hover around the 85 schollies (obviously there's some attrition w/ injuries, etc) and then see how we compare to the rest of the nation. After a coach's first year, there should be no excuse at not signing a full class (assuming there are no sanctions).

It's rare that a 5th year guy is a true difference maker. It's usually the guy that comes back for his 4th year that is a huge coup (i.e., the 6-star recruit like Mike Floyd, Manti Te'o, Tyler Eifert, etc). Those are the guys that truly have a tough decision to make. 5th year guys still bring something to the table, but it's usually experienced depth...which as witnessed this year, is truly needed.

I don't know how truly Kendall Moore's 5th year would've helped this year, but I wish ND had the chance to find out b/c the depth was so depleted. I'm most interested to see what happens to Jarrett Grace b/c it's likely all dependent on his health. He would be a 5th year correct?

5th year guys are huge assets. I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Having a 22-23 year old play against 18-20 year olds is a huge difference. Give me the guy who redshirtd then has 3 years of playing experience going into his 5th year.

 

[Irish YJ]

5th year guys are huge assets. I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Having a 22-23 year old play against 18-20 year olds is a huge difference. Give me the guy who redshirtd then has 3 years of playing experience going into his 5th year.

In our current state of the program, yes. In top tier programs that continuously reload with young 4 and 5 stars combined with oversigning, no. If we were getting 5 star guys ready to play, already with adult bodies, they see the field earlier, and leave earlier. When you are constantly undersigning, and looking for 2 or 3 star guys to "develop", you have to rely on the 5th years.

Hence the argument.

 

[Cackalacky]

In our current state of the program, yes. In top tier programs that continuously reload with young 4 and 5 stars combined with oversigning, no. If we were getting 5 star guys ready to play, already with adult bodies, they see the field earlier, and leave earlier. When you are constantly undersigning, and looking for 2 or 3 star guys to "develop", you have to rely on the 5th years.

Hence the argument.

In 2012 or 2013 not sure, I remember hearing Alabama had 7 5th years on the roster, on top of their enormous recruiting classes, one of those being Norwood. Maybe TTT can comment more, but 5th years are an enormous asset from the practice team, overall experience and mentorship, to leadership IMO.

Edit: it was 2013
McCarron, Mosley, Anthony Steen, Kevin Norwood, Ed Stinson, Deion Belue are starters. So are punter Cody Mandell and placekicker Cade Foster.

Crazy.

 

[Legacy]

You can add Jody Fuller, Shaq Roland and Kwinton Smith to these numbers as well. I think Ahmad Christian too. I believe all of these guys were from the 2011 class.

All four are accounted for in those numbers. Fuller, Roland and Smith were in the class of 2012. Christian was in the class of 2011.

Only Roland is left on the team. Christian (1/7/14), Smith (3/13/14) and Fuller (6/4/14) transferred among the seven transfers the first part of 2014.

As far as numbers, four players, who signed but did not qualify in one class, came back in the next year's class. So, enrollment numbers are more indicative and avoid counting some players twice.

Carolina had seven fifth year seniors in 2014 (plus the walk-on to scholarship seniors). Six of the seven were starters. Only one of the seven was a four star. The rest were three or two stars.

Of interest, There are two guys named Gerald Dixon on the South Carolina football team.(link)

 

[Legacy]

In 2012 or 2013 not sure, I remember hearing Alabama had 7 5th years on the roster, on top of their enormous recruiting classes, one of those being Norwood. Maybe TTT can comment more, but 5th years are an enormous asset from the practice team, overall experience and mentorship, to leadership IMO.

Edit: it was 2013
McCarron, Mosley, Anthony Steen, Kevin Norwood, Ed Stinson, Deion Belue are starters. So are punter Cody Mandell and placekicker Cade Foster.

Crazy.

Alabama won the National Championship in 2012 with four fifth years. In 2013, they had the seven you referenced and watched Auburn play for the NC. In 2014, Bama had nine fifth years.

Florida had nine fifth years this season. South Carolina had ten fifth years. LSU had six fifth years.

Notre Dame had four. We had six fifth years for 2013.

Who else at possible positions of need would you have asked back for a fifth year in 2014?

Who would you invite for a fifth year in 2015?

 

[stlnd01]

Who else at possible positions of need would you have asked back for a fifth year in 2014?

Who would you invite for a fifth year in 2015?

The real trick with fifth years is to have the depth to not burn redshirts when they're freshmen. We could have really used Kona Schwenke this year, for instance. I wonder if a few years from now we'll regret having played Jay Hayes for a couple of games late.
As for next year, we'll see. We have a lot of candidates. Only a few must-keeps, but who knows how many Justin Utupos lurk.

 

[Crazy Balki]

The real trick with fifth years is to have the depth to not burn redshirts when they're freshmen. We could have really used Kona Schwenke this year, for instance. I wonder if a few years from now we'll regret having played Jay Hayes for a couple of games late.
As for next year, we'll see. We have a lot of candidates. Only a few must-keeps, but who knows how many Justin Utupos lurk.

I don't know the rules all that well, but don't you have to play a certain number of games to burn your redshirt? I mean, I only remember Hayes playing in like 2 or 3 games. Louisville and USC for sure, and maybe the bowl game. I've seen guys play that many games and then shut it down for the rest of the season and still stay eligible for a redshirt.

I'm still wondering why Kona wasn't redshirted, or better yet, why was Romeo not redshirted? That was just plain stupid. He was already almost 2 years younger than most freshmen, so it didn't make much sense to burn him just by giving him time on ST.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Alabama won the National Championship in 2012 with four fifth years. In 2013, they had the seven you referenced and watched Auburn play for the NC. In 2014, Bama had nine fifth years.

N. Perry, Sims, Fowler, White, Kouandjio, Shepherd, Vogler, Jones, J. Williams, A Orr, and Brandon Ivory were the nine fifth year seniors. And all were pretty significant contributors. It helps if your team has the depth to redshirt some guys and I would expect ND to see more and more fifth year guys as BK builds that depth. As far as Saban and his thoughts on fifth years... he has said in the past that if they don't grade out in the first 2-3 rounds of the draft then he recommends they come back. He referenced what many out here have posted about the fact that they provide that leadership more often than not.

 

[phork]

I don't know the rules all that well, but don't you have to play a certain number of games to burn your redshirt? I mean, I only remember Hayes playing in like 2 or 3 games. Louisville and USC for sure, and maybe the bowl game. I've seen guys play that many games and then shut it down for the rest of the season and still stay eligible for a redshirt.

I'm still wondering why Kona wasn't redshirted, or better yet, why was Romeo not redshirted? That was just plain stupid. He was already almost 2 years younger than most freshmen, so it didn't make much sense to burn him just by giving him time on ST.

1 play == burned red shirt. If you have played less than 30% of the season due to injury you can apply for a medical redshirt.

 

[Crazy Balki]

1 play == burned red shirt. If you have played less than 30% of the season due to injury you can apply for a medical redshirt.

Ah. Injury is the key. That's what I thought. I distinctly remember watching Auburn early in 2010 and Trovon Reed played the first few games and then was redshirted. I believe he got hurt as well.

 

[Legacy]

N. Perry, Sims, Fowler, White, Kouandjio, Shepherd, Vogler, Jones, J. Williams, A Orr, and Brandon Ivory were the nine fifth year seniors. And all were pretty significant contributors. It helps if your team has the depth to redshirt some guys and I would expect ND to see more and more fifth year guys as BK builds that depth. As far as Saban and his thoughts on fifth years... he has said in the past that if they don't grade out in the first 2-3 rounds of the draft then he recommends they come back. He referenced what many out here have posted about the fact that they provide that leadership more often than not.

The story behind having nine fifth year seniors this year at Alabama is that you also need transfers, early entrants to the NFL draft, in addition to normal attrition to be able to offer those nine a fifth year. Out of that 2010 Bama class of twenty-seven, four transferrred before graduating, one transferred for his fifth year, two entered the draft early, three grayshirted. Also, two did not qualify, one left for baseball.

So, building depth the Sabin way, means you're committed to one year scholarships and managing your roster by encouraging transfers, and winnowing out those you don't consider to be major contributors.

You can't isolate just the class of 2010 either. Seven transferred out in the previous class (2009), which created room. Six more so far have transferred out of classes (2011-13) with this offseason numbers crunch to go. For 2015, Alabama will have a class of twenty-five again, pushing those transfers out. Four more from the class of 2011 were early entrants to the draft, too.

Also, our fifth years have to first apply and be accepted into graduate school.

 

[Legacy]

Tennessee Oversigning Numbers

Tennessee Oversigning Numbers

Can someone find Tennessee's numbers? It's crazy to me how they could bring in 32 for 2014 and currently have 27 for 2015.

Everything is looking up in Knoxville. A 6-6 record. The Vols finished tied with South Carolina and just short of 6-5 Florida, who was third in the East. A 3-5 conference record with their cross-division opponents were Alabama and Ole Miss.

Tennessee is a young team. They lose three starters from the 2014 team. Eleven starters were either Sophomores or Freshmen. Butch Jones recruits sparingly out of the JUCO ranks - one each from Classes 2013-15. He was rewarded with a new contract for the work he has done.

Here are their scholarship numbers:
- After recruiting a 2014 class of 32, last year they had 82 players on scholarship, including two walk-ons.
- Graduation/Other losses - 13
- Transfers Out in December, 2014 - 3
- Scholarships given out in December - 2

So, they have a net of fourteen scholarship players lost from the eighty-two - 64 starting out
- Adding three to get to eighty-five and taking away the walk-on scholarships gets Tennessee to eightteen.
The current 2015 class is at twenty-seven with two or three more serious targets. That leave nine scholarship players at this point over the limit.

Where are they oversigning?
On Offense, they have met all their needs except they are two short of their goal for Offensive Linemen.

Their overrecruiting (oversigning) is on Defense, which is where I would look for transfers and attrition. The numbers over their needs:
- +3 on Defensive Ends
- +4 on Defensive Tackles
- +1 each on LB,S, and Specialists
- +2 in the class of 2015 who are classified as Athletes

Tennessee has been very good in clearing their recruits prior to Signing Day with 2011 the last year one player did not get a scholarship/did not qualify (a greyshirt that year). So we can assume that all their class of 2015 will qualify.

They would take another offensive lineman, if possible.

Also, of the Class of 2015, they have had three verbals who decommitted and one whose scholarship was withdrawn.

SEC recuiting rules applied to Tennessee
Last year, the SEC recruiting rule of twenty-five per year and fifty scholarship "counters" in two years did not apply because their class of thirty-two did not reach eighty-five. This year so far Tenn is at 59 scholarship "counters" over two years and they will be oversigning the fifty rule - and the eighty-five total rule unless they clear some scholarship players.

What that rule has done for the SEC coaches is force them to make sure a recruit passes academics prior to signing and, if they are exceeding fifty in two years, to announce any transfers, attrition prior to Signing Day so they can be at eighty-five.

Additionally, there are four Jrs or Seniors with eligibility remaining who were not on the two deep who played in four games or less. Two more players were out for the year with injuries - a serious auto accident and a high ankle sprain.

Butch Jones clearly has a plan that will address this oversigning.

 

[Legacy]

Alabama Oversigning

Alabama Oversigning

Always Alabama.

Despite having the Number 1 recruiting class three years in a row (2012-14), a Number 2 recruiting class in 2011, Alabama must be disappointed. Even with fifth year senior leadership more than any previous year, they've lost their second bowl game in a row and will once again not play for the National Championship.

Once again, Bama will have the Number 1 Signing Class. Once again, Bama fans will expect a National Championship. Once again, Bama is oversigning. The Number Crunch is especially tight this year. If no Red shirt Seniors are asked back for a fifth year, Bama is at ninety scholarship players, counting the current verbals. How Saban survives the recruiting restrictions will be interesting to watch.

Bama signed twenty-six "counters" per SEC rules last year, though two were academic casuaties. One (Bo Scarbrough, RB) has enrolled in January. Already Bama is at twenty-six verbals, including six five star recruits. Bama is stilling pursuing commits with two top Offensive Linemen having Alabama in their favorites and taking visits.

Under NCAA rules, Bama can count Scarbrough as their twenty-fifth enrollee for 2014, counting him backwards. Under the SEC rules, every signee counts, i.e. "counters", towards a running two year total of fifty. So, they can sign twenty-four.

Who gets dropped from their Class of 2015 before Signing Day? They have a few three stars.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Always Alabama.

Despite having the Number 1 recruiting class three years in a row (2012-14), a Number 2 recruiting class in 2011, Alabama must be disappointed. Even with fifth year senior leadership more than any previous year, they've lost their second bowl game in a row and will once again not play for the National Championship.

Once again, Bama will have the Number 1 Signing Class. Once again, Bama fans will expect a National Championship. Once again, Bama is oversigning. The Number Crunch is especially tight this year. If no Red shirt Seniors are asked back for a fifth year, Bama is at ninety scholarship players, counting the current verbals. How Saban survives the recruiting restrictions will be interesting to watch.

Bama signed twenty-six "counters" per SEC rules last year, though two were academic casuaties. One (Bo Scarbrough, RB) has enrolled in January. Already Bama is at twenty-six verbals, including six five star recruits. Bama is stilling pursuing commits with two top Offensive Linemen having Alabama in their favorites and taking visits.

Under NCAA rules, Bama can count Scarbrough as their twenty-fifth enrollee for 2014, counting him backwards. Under the SEC rules, every signee counts, i.e. "counters", towards a running two year total of fifty. So, they can sign twenty-four.

Who gets dropped from their Class of 2015 before Signing Day? They have a few three stars.

With most any program, there will be those that transfer out due to being buried on a depth chart. There will probably be a few that grey shift (preferred walk on if it makes some feel better), one or two that may not qualify, may flip , and there is always the risk of behavioral issues that hit teams. Or, maybe they inform a current commitment that it may be best for them to look elsewhere. Apparently that is becoming more and more popular amongst schools today. Or, maybe they don't ask back a few fifth years as you mention(probably due to being buried on depth charts)... another popular thing amongst schools today. With that said, Bama will be at 85 when the season rolls around. If a school goes into the fall with less than the amount allowed per NCAA rules, then maybe people should be asking why? If a coach has issues managing his allotment of scholarships, then what other issues are they having problems managing?

 

[Legacy]

With most any program, there will be those that transfer out due to being buried on a depth chart. There will probably be a few that grey shift (preferred walk on if it makes some feel better), one or two that may not qualify, may flip , and there is always the risk of behavioral issues that hit teams. Or, maybe they inform a current commitment that it may be best for them to look elsewhere. Apparently that is becoming more and more popular amongst schools today. Or, maybe they don't ask back a few fifth years as you mention(probably due to being buried on depth charts)... another popular thing amongst schools today. With that said, Bama will be at 85 when the season rolls around. If a school goes into the fall with less than the amount allowed per NCAA rules, then maybe people should be asking why? If a coach has issues managing his allotment of scholarships, then what other issues are they having problems managing?

The following schools did not have eighty-five scholarship players without counting scholarships to walkons:
Georgia
South Carolina
Florida
Texas
Stanford
Miami
Notre Dame
Northwestern
Florida
LSU
Michigan
UCLA
Tennessee
Arkansas
Ole Miss

Both USC and Penn State were on sanctions, but below the mandated sanction limits.

I'm sure there are many more. Oversigning and then cutting your roster down to eighty-five by withdrawing scholarships, urging transfers, greyshirting etc. is the exception.

 

[T Town Tommy]

The following schools did not have eighty-five scholarship players without counting scholarships to walkons:
Georgia
South Carolina
Florida
Texas
Stanford
Miami
Notre Dame
Northwestern
Florida
LSU
Michigan
UCLA
Tennessee
Arkansas
Ole Miss

Both USC and Penn State were on sanctions, but below the mandated sanction limits.

I'm sure there are many more. Oversigning and then cutting your roster down to eighty-five by withdrawing scholarships, urging transfers, greyshirting etc. is the exception.

Let us all know when Saban actually cuts a guy simply because he isn't good enough to see the field. Transferring on your own to get playing time because a coach tells you that you aren't likely to see much playing time is not the same as cutting. Neither is telling a current recruit that they may want to look elsewhere. But hey... only the big, bad mean schools that aren't doing it right do that. Nobody who is "doing it right" does that. Greyshirting is done at a lot of schools. They just like to feel good and call them preferred walk ons or some other fancy name since some believe grey shirting is dirty. As is the practice of not offering fifth years. Only the "bad" schools do that too I guess.

For the record, I am for schools offering four year scholarships. But until the NCAA changes the rules and/or conferences choose to self direct that, then it is what it is. And if some take exception to that, then that's on them. Pretty simple to me. And it's pretty simple to me when a coach goes in to fall practice under allocated on scholarships because they can't manage their roster - unexpected issues aside obviously.

 

[irishtrain]

Let us all know when Saban actually cuts a guy simply because he isn't good enough to see the field. Transferring on your own to get playing time because a coach tells you that you aren't likely to see much playing time is not the same as cutting. Neither is telling a current recruit that they may want to look elsewhere. But hey... only the big, bad mean schools that aren't doing it right do that. Nobody who is "doing it right" does that. Greyshirting is done at a lot of schools. They just like to feel good and call them preferred walk ons or some other fancy name since some believe grey shirting is dirty. As is the practice of not offering fifth years. Only the "bad" schools do that too I guess.

For the record, I am for schools offering four year scholarships. But until the NCAA changes the rules and/or conferences choose to self direct that, then it is what it is. And if some take exception to that, then that's on them. Pretty simple to me. And it's pretty simple to me when a coach goes in to fall practice under allocated on scholarships because they can't manage their roster - unexpected issues aside obviously.

Tommy before I ask this question to you let me say that I've have come to respect you and your opinion and certainly respect the on the field product of Ala. But to cut to the real answer for all this would be to ask the question this way- 'with what happened at Notre Dame this year being considered- meaning first the school lowering the boom on players and then the pile of injuries to the players that were able to help- do you ever see a day where that would happen to Saban'? Of course not because of the prolific numbers he's working with and the cooperation of the school. That is why many of us don't like what schools like Notre Dame are up against. Yes its within the rules but is it right, its why they have all these guys on 3-5 ( power ) teams in the sec and why they win. They have the horses and acquire them any way they can. That's why we refer to it as minor league pro football. Every time this over signing talk comes up its why some of us have to speak our mind on the subject. It reeks of winning at all cost. If Notre Dame did this the college football world would fry their #@$.