Offensive Line Thread

[beryirish]

That's a fair point, but Stanford isn't in "rebuilding" mode. Shaw's won 77% of his games over the last 7 seasons (5-2 against Kelly), and has seen 7 OL drafted during that period, most of which went in the 1st round. Kelly's won 67% of his games over the last 8 seasons, and has seen 4 OL drafted during that period. We're likely to pull close to even with Stanford on draft success this year, but we're still a long way behind them in win %. So yeah, I think it's reasonable for us to be much more nervous about Quinn's hire than Cardinal fans (lol) are about Carberry.

But we are not talking about overall wins record - we aren't hiring a HC. It's an OL Coach.

Yes, Stanford has 7 NFL OL draft picks since 2011 - 3 in 1st round, 1 2nd, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th.
Notre Dame hs 4 NFL OL draft picks since 2011 - 2 in 1st round, 1 2nd, 1 3rd.

Like you said, count this year ND will have 2 more 1st rounders while 0 are projected for SU.

Then you will have Mustipher and Bars next year with Mustipher being Nick Martin esque and Bars more along the lines of Watt around 3-4 rounds.

You're saying Stanford is having much more OL success than ND. Then why could they only get this Cranberry guy who doesn't appear to be an OL himself and seemed to take all of his success from his mentors. Not discounting that he could be the best OL coach who ever lived, but at his current status, he's also nothing to climb the light posts over.

At face value, Quinn is hands down a much better hire than what a slightly better OL regime could muster up.

 

[koonja]

ISD mentioned Mustipher and Barrs had input on the hire. Sounds like Quinn was familiar enough to be thought of as someone who could carry the HH torch versus different people with different philosophies. May not headline shockwaves but I dig it. We wanted him when Kelly was hired in 09, we wanted him to be the OC thereafter as well before he signed an extension with Buffalo.

Jamie U had an article. I had read this on Twitter. I'm not a big fan of this hire......just seems to comfortable with the old way of business. That didn't work out so well. I guess we'll see how this plays out.

I want to believe this, but I've read each article twice and can't find anything about a current player supporting this move.

Mike answered this same question "how do current OL feel" and he said "don't know".

Am I crazy?

 

[KizerWilhelm]

Let me ask about the Hiestand hire comparisons, because I'm a whippersnapper who didn't follow the assistant hires as closely then: was the backlash from the fans AND the media? Because the fact that the II guys were pretty uniformly against the hire is troubling (I think Pete Sampson joked he'd break his keyboard if happened at one point).

 

[FDNYIrish1]

I’m willing to give anyone who had coaching success at Buffalo a fair shake. I was hoping for an outside hire, but Quinn seems like a damn solid football coach. We shall see.

 

[Luckylucci]

I want to believe this, but I've read each article twice and can't find anything about a current player supporting this move.

Mike answered this same question "how do current OL feel" and he said "don't know".

Am I crazy?

I saw it posted at II/247 that Mustipher and Bars were a part of the interview process for the outside hires, or maybe one of the outside hires. If true, it would seem that their feedback was taken into account. I haven't seen anything to indicate Quinn was their choice, so I must be missing it as well. However, them being a part of the interview process for outside hires, and then not hiring an outside OL coach might give some insight into what role they played. Again, this is me just connecting the dots, as I haven't seen anything about them choosing Quinn, though I could've missed it.

 

[irishff1014]

We make what seems to be a good safeties coach and than sh!t the bed with this hire. And took this long to hire a in the program guy. This literally makes no damn sense.

 

[koonja]

Serious question - what team/year did Quinn coach OL, and that OL sucked?

 

[Andy in Sactown]

Serious question - what team/year did Quinn coach OL, and that OL sucked?

2018.

I kid; I'm in the wait and see camp. Not a home run, but contribute to continuity and has the experience. Recruiting will be clutch; maybe not for next year, but moving forward. Not sure what else there is to say barring inside information.

 

[ND88]

We make what seems to be a good safeties coach and than sh!t the bed with this hire. And took this long to hire a in the program guy. This literally makes no damn sense.

What do you know about Quinn that makes this a sh*t-the-bed hire? Just curious.

 

[NDRock]

Serious question - what team/year did Quinn coach OL, and that OL sucked?

What does this mean?

 

[NDRock]

We make what seems to be a good safeties coach and than sh!t the bed with this hire. And took this long to hire a in the program guy. This literally makes no damn sense.

Here is what you wrote a short time after HH was hired.

"Maybe some people should trust Kelly more. Some people didn't like this signing but looks like so far it is working out."

Might want to take your own advise. Or not.

 

[koonja]

What does this mean?

Not sure how it's confusing... Everyone seems to be down on this hire (I am too).

But for the years Quinn was an OL coach at one college or another, if he's such a bad hire, what OL's has he coached that were crappy OL's?

 

[NDRock]

Not sure how it's confusing... Everyone seems to be down on this hire (I am too).

But for the years Quinn was an OL coach at one college or another, if he's such a bad hire, what OL's has he coached that were crappy OL's?

Sorry, was legitimately confused by your phrasing and wan't sure what you were actually asking. Typed it into my Koon translator and understand now. My bad.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

Serious question - what team/year did Quinn coach OL, and that OL sucked?

Hard to tell, he's only coached OL at the FBS level for 6 years and none at a P5 school. Oh, and he hasn't coached a position in this decade!

 

[BobbyMac]

Not sure how it's confusing... Everyone seems to be down on this hire (I am too).

But for the years Quinn was an OL coach at one college or another, if he's such a bad hire, what OL's has he coached that were crappy OL's?

.

 

[irishff1014]

What do you know about Quinn that makes this a sh*t-the-bed hire? Just curious.

If you have 247 go read Pete’s comments. To many to post and he is a pretty upbeat guy imo.

Imo this was a friendship hire.

 

[Luckylucci]

Hard to tell, he's only coached OL at the FBS level for 6 years and none at a P5 school. Oh, and he hasn't coached a position in this decade!

This is my concern. He's literally never coached or recruited at the P5 level, nor has he done any of that at any level, recently.

 

[IrishLax]

If you have 247 go read Pete’s comments. To many to post and he is a pretty upbeat guy imo.

Imo this was a friendship hire.

Yeah, I can't really find these comments? I see him being negative, I don't see him explaining why it's bad except that "he's been out of coaching for three years."

Look, it should've been clear to Pete and everyone else when names started leaking of who was interviewing that there were ZERO tier 1 OL coaches primed and ready to take this job regardless of what was "expected" when Hiestand decided to move on. The talent on this roster is obviously also not that great as we looked strongly at taking a 5th year transfer from Rice to man the LT spot.

Given all of that, it's completely logical that Quinn ended up being the pick. It's not a "great hire" by any means, but ND sure as hell could've done worse or been riskier. The fact is Kelly's offensive success went hand-in-hand with Quinn being his OL coach and OC. He has a track record of success as an OL coach. After 23 years of success as an OL/OC he up-jumped to being a head coach and failed. He then spent 3 years as an analyst at ND... that is not being "out of coaching", that is biding your time for the right job to jump back in and was time spent being in this very program.

The Clark Lea hire was about continuity and trying to win now. This is the same type of hire, getting a guy who is going to be the softest transition instead of bringing in someone brand new. And frankly, if we're being objective, Quinn's resume is also flat out better than the resume of any coach whose name leaked as an interviewee. So what the hell are the pitchforks for? I'd love for Sampson to explain with numbers + experience which of the other candidates was better and a "home run."

 

[dang227]

I have no problem with this hire. Other than his friendship with Kelly he is considered a good offensive coach. I have no idea about his recruiting skills however.


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[OCIrish]

.

 

[koonja]

Yeah, I can't really find these comments? I see him being negative, I don't see him explaining why it's bad except that "he's been out of coaching for three years."

Look, it should've been clear to Pete and everyone else when names started leaking of who was interviewing that there were ZERO tier 1 OL coaches primed and ready to take this job regardless of what was "expected" when Hiestand decided to move on. The talent on this roster is obviously also not that great as we looked strongly at taking a 5th year transfer from Rice to man the LT spot.

Given all of that, it's completely logical that Quinn ended up being the pick. It's not a "great hire" by any means, but ND sure as hell could've done worse or been riskier. The fact is Kelly's offensive success went hand-in-hand with Quinn being his OL coach and OC. He has a track record of success as an OL coach. After 23 years of success as an OL/OC he up-jumped to being a head coach and failed. He then spent 3 years as an analyst at ND... that is not being "out of coaching", that is biding your time for the right job to jump back in and was time spent being in this very program.

The Clark Lea hire was about continuity and trying to win now. This is the same type of hire, getting a guy who is going to be the softest transition instead of bringing in someone brand new. And frankly, if we're being objective, Quinn's resume is also flat out better than the resume of any coach whose name leaked as an interviewee. So what the hell are the pitchforks for? I'd love for Sampson to explain with numbers + experience which of the other candidates was better and a "home run."

Yeah, I think a lot of the negativity stems from the fact that he's old. Mine too - I don't trust old people to recruit. But he definitely has the experience.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

Because the best way I can figure to see how Quinn is as an OL coach is to look at the rushing numbers:

Year----School---Run yds/gm--Run yds/att--Runs for first down/gm
2004----CMU---------170--------------4.2--------------8.5
2005----CMU---------159--------------4.0--------------8.2
2006----CMU---------130--------------4.3--------------6.6
2007----Cincy--------148--------------4.0--------------7.8
2008----Cincy--------118--------------3.6--------------7.1
2009----Cincy--------138--------------5.0--------------6.8

To put those numbers in perspective, here are NDs from 2016, which I don't think was a great rushing year and when I think most people were down on the offensive line:

2016-----ND----------163--------------4.5--------------8.9

 

[IrishLax]

Because the best way I can figure to see how Quinn is as an OL coach is to look at the rushing numbers:

Year----School---Run yds/gm--Run yds/att--Runs for first down/gm
2004----CMU---------170--------------4.2--------------8.5
2005----CMU---------159--------------4.0--------------8.2
2006----CMU---------130--------------4.3--------------6.6
2007----Cincy--------148--------------4.0--------------7.8
2008----Cincy--------118--------------3.6--------------7.1
2009----Cincy--------138--------------5.0--------------6.8

To put those numbers in perspective, here are NDs from 2016, which I don't think was a great rushing year and when I think most people were down on the offensive line:

2016-----ND----------163--------------4.5--------------8.9

His most recent year as an OL coach his rushing attack was rated 9th by S&P+ advanced stats. That's opponent adjusted, so it accounts for Cincy playing in a Big East that wasn't great. Unfortunately, Football Outsiders advanced stats for Offensive Line Play don't go back past 2014, so we can't look at those for Quinn at Cincy. His other years at Cincy Quinn's offense was not very efficient at rushing the ball.

Under Hiestand, ND ranked 9th, 22nd, 27th, 3rd, 36th, and 5th in rushing. Harry had three top 10 units in 7 years... each of those years ND won 10+ games. So yeah, he's probably a big drop off from Hiestand. But his most recent data point was not a bad one.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Yeah, I can't really find these comments? I see him being negative, I don't see him explaining why it's bad except that "he's been out of coaching for three years."

Look, it should've been clear to Pete and everyone else when names started leaking of who was interviewing that there were ZERO tier 1 OL coaches primed and ready to take this job regardless of what was "expected" when Hiestand decided to move on. The talent on this roster is obviously also not that great as we looked strongly at taking a 5th year transfer from Rice to man the LT spot.

Given all of that, it's completely logical that Quinn ended up being the pick. It's not a "great hire" by any means, but ND sure as hell could've done worse or been riskier. The fact is Kelly's offensive success went hand-in-hand with Quinn being his OL coach and OC. He has a track record of success as an OL coach. After 23 years of success as an OL/OC he up-jumped to being a head coach and failed. He then spent 3 years as an analyst at ND... that is not being "out of coaching", that is biding your time for the right job to jump back in and was time spent being in this very program.

The Clark Lea hire was about continuity and trying to win now. This is the same type of hire, getting a guy who is going to be the softest transition instead of bringing in someone brand new. And frankly, if we're being objective, Quinn's resume is also flat out better than the resume of any coach whose name leaked as an interviewee. So what the hell are the pitchforks for? I'd love for Sampson to explain with numbers + experience which of the other candidates was better and a "home run."

No matter what, the next guy was going to be a risk as he is an unknown quantity.

That out the way for a second, Kelly 2.0 was about being put out of his comfort zone and managing the ND team in a way he never did before. The guys he hired last year were not about continuity, but changing ND football. There was legitimate success this year and the momentum was clearly on the "up". Then Elko happened. Shit happens and it sucked, but there was a legitimate reason to go with Lea as a coordinator. Then we go and hire Joseph as Safety coach. Again, someone well outside the Kelly tree.

The rumors swirl on the OL search. Again, names previously not connected with ND and prior buddies of Kelly. Names weren't going to knock your socks off, but would keep with the prior hiring trend. Instead, we go back to the well that previously poisoned the program.

Look, Quinn may turn out to be okay. But for me, that isn't the point. It's that Kelly and ND reached into an old bag of tricks on this hire and that is a non-starter for me.

 

[Domina Nostra]

No matter what, the next guy was going to be a risk as he is an unknown quantity.

That out the way for a second, Kelly 2.0 was about being put out of his comfort zone and managing the ND team in a way he never did before. The guys he hired last year were not about continuity, but changing ND football. There was legitimate success this year and the momentum was clearly on the "up". Then Elko happened. Shit happens and it sucked, but there was a legitimate reason to go with Lea as a coordinator. Then we go and hire Joseph as Safety coach. Again, someone well outside the Kelly tree.

The rumors swirl on the OL search. Again, names previously not connected with ND and prior buddies of Kelly. Names weren't going to knock your socks off, but would keep with the prior hiring trend. Instead, we go back to the well that previously poisoned with the program.

Look, Quinn may turn out to be okay. But for me, that isn't the point. It's that Kelly and ND reached into an old bag of tricks on this hire and that is a non-starter for me.

Quinn was his right-hand man and is an OL guy. Kelly knows exactly what he is getting and likes it. Seems like a fine hire to me.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Quinn was his right-hand man and is an OL guy. Kelly knows exactly what he is getting and likes it. Seems like a fine hire to me.

Just like Charley Molnar was going to help rekindle the bearcat flame in south bend.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

His most recent year as an OL coach his rushing attack was rated 9th by S&P+ advanced stats. That's opponent adjusted, so it accounts for Cincy playing in a Big East that wasn't great. Unfortunately, Football Outsiders advanced stats for Offensive Line Play don't go back past 2014, so we can't look at those for Quinn at Cincy. His other years at Cincy Quinn's offense was not very efficient at rushing the ball.

Under Hiestand, ND ranked 9th, 22nd, 27th, 3rd, 36th, and 5th in rushing. Harry had three top 10 units in 7 years... each of those years ND won 10+ games. So yeah, he's probably a big drop off from Hiestand. But his most recent data point was not a bad one.

But here are Quinn's other years for that same stat:
2005 - CMU - 91st
2006 - CMU - 77th
2007 - Cincy - 74th
2008 - Cincy - 53rd

So the good news is he did improve I guess

 

[Luckylucci]

Yeah, I can't really find these comments? I see him being negative, I don't see him explaining why it's bad except that "he's been out of coaching for three years."

Look, it should've been clear to Pete and everyone else when names started leaking of who was interviewing that there were ZERO tier 1 OL coaches primed and ready to take this job regardless of what was "expected" when Hiestand decided to move on. The talent on this roster is obviously also not that great as we looked strongly at taking a 5th year transfer from Rice to man the LT spot.

Given all of that, it's completely logical that Quinn ended up being the pick. It's not a "great hire" by any means, but ND sure as hell could've done worse or been riskier. The fact is Kelly's offensive success went hand-in-hand with Quinn being his OL coach and OC. He has a track record of success as an OL coach. After 23 years of success as an OL/OC he up-jumped to being a head coach and failed. He then spent 3 years as an analyst at ND... that is not being "out of coaching", that is biding your time for the right job to jump back in and was time spent being in this very program.

The Clark Lea hire was about continuity and trying to win now. This is the same type of hire, getting a guy who is going to be the softest transition instead of bringing in someone brand new. And frankly, if we're being objective, Quinn's resume is also flat out better than the resume of any coach whose name leaked as an interviewee. So what the hell are the pitchforks for? I'd love for Sampson to explain with numbers + experience which of the other candidates was better and a "home run."

You think his resume is better than that of Bob Bostad's?

I guess Quinn has certainly had a lot of success at lower levels of football but he's literally never coached at the P5 level or higher, ever. I'm not sure how that compares to a guy that coached OL at Wiscy for 4 seasons, before going to the NFL for 4 seasons. That's 8 seasons of experience at levels of football that Quinn hasn't.

 

[Wingman Ray]

I think any "named" OL coach coming in would want either a huge bankroll or possibly a doorway out with BK as coach. I think BK is tired. Like many here, I cant see him coaching in 2020. He brought in a vanilla coach who could keep it between the buoys for the next year or so until BK is retired sipping margaritas somewhere very much south of S Bend. I mean honestly, if you were a successful and proven OL coach, would you want to leave your current gig to tie up to someone who likely wont be there in two years?

BK isnt coaching for National Championships. He has to know by now that is just not ever going to happen at ND. Not with the restrictions in place there. At this point, I think he is just looking for a 9 win season so he doesnt have to dodge the eggs thrown at him and then shoot the gap.

 

[IrishLax]

You think his resume is better than that of Bob Bostad's?

I guess Quinn has certainly had a lot of success at lower levels of football but he's literally never coached at the P5 level or higher, ever. I'm not sure how that compares to a guy that coached OL at Wiscy for 4 seasons, before going to the NFL for 4 seasons. That's 8 seasons of experience at levels of football that Quinn hasn't.

No, Bostad was better. Significantly. I never heard from anyone I trusted that we had a serious chance of getting him though... I think his name being floated was a little bit of wishful thinking by some because it seemed like he'd be easily poachable from his current job coaching ILB. I also think there were concerns about scheme fit... he's never coached OL in a spread offense to my knowledge.