Occupy Wall St.

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
If they want to push for the .1% or the .01% to pay more taxes or have their loopholes closed I can totally get behind that. But right now it just comes across as too much pure complaining with no sense of well thought out goals or direction. Most of the people in the lower half of that "1%" made intelligent decisions and worked their butts off to get there. It's so hard to respect someone who took out a bunch of loans to get a psychology degree at the local JC and then drank/partied their way through it to get a 2.0 and then blames everyone else for them not having a job.... and then to top it off, instead of looking for a job they just give up and spend months camping out in cities to "send a message."

I actually like the idea of a surtax on people making over 1 million a year. Make them pay what they payed under the Clinton administration so about a 4% increase. Also tax capital gains as regular income.
 

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
I'm saying why don't you compare that to just about any 3rd world country. If you're going to be poor, the best place to be poor is in the US. There are so many programs here to help those in need.

So because they are better off than a poor person in the third world country they should be happy? What kind of logic is that?
 

BeauBenken

Shut up, Richard
Staff member
Messages
16,041
Reaction score
5,491
So because they are better off than a poor person in the third world country they should be happy? What kind of logic is that?

Gez. My post was hardly even about the actual poor as opposed to the people who are protesting and claiming to be poor.

And sorta yes, it could be much worse. And if you want it to be better, do something.
 

autry_denson

Active member
Messages
514
Reaction score
150
They're wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars of our cities budgets....all the police labor hours, the rubber bullets and tear gas cost a lot of money.

Do you realize that the government spent $700 billion bailing out the banks that held toxic funds that had deliberately been packaged together with the goals of short-term profits? Do you realize that Citibank just settled a case in which it was documented that they assembled funds that they knew were worthless, sold them to customers, and then bet against those funds?

And you're angry about the dollars that cities have to spend to control crowds at the protests?

The goal of Occupy Wall St is to shift the balance of power away from the extremely small number of ridiculously wealthy who have an absurd amount of the country's wealth and an even more absurd amount of political power. There is not a discrete set of policies that will achieve this goal, which is part of the reason why the movement has not made specific demands.

Yes, the protests have attracted a large number of wackos, just like the Tea Party movement has over the past couple of years. Hopefully that doesn't distract from the message.

If you're worried about hundreds of thousands of city dollars, I would hope that you would also be worried about the hundreds of billions of dollars that you and I paid to bail out the banks. If you're angry about annoying protesters, I'm with you - but you might also direct some of your anger to the people who deliberately defrauded customers in order to get rich, and brought down the economy along the way.

If you have any friends/family who are unemployed or who have had their homes foreclosed, you might spend a few minutes thinking about why they are in the predicament they're in. And then you might better understand what the Occupy Wall Street folks are working toward.
 

BobD

Can't get no satisfaction
Messages
7,918
Reaction score
1,034
Do you realize that the government spent $700 billion bailing out the banks

I haven't googled it yet....how much of that 700 billion has been paid back? I thought I heard somewhere the Government might even profit from the loans? Is that right?
 

#1irishfan

New member
Messages
54
Reaction score
0
If you have any friends/family who are unemployed or who have had their homes foreclosed, you might spend a few minutes thinking about why they are in the predicament they're in. And then you might better understand what the Occupy Wall Street folks are working toward.

Think? Come-ON man.....We don't do such a thing! FOX news, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, etc. do the thinkin for us man! Didn't ya know this? Thinking is for them dumb liberal kids that got an edgeication man! Most of us would rather listen to others and have them form our opinions.....MUCH easier! Next time please don't ask them to think it insults their intelligence! ;)
 

NankerPhelge

WANKER
Messages
805
Reaction score
126
I just wonder if anyone here could tell me what percentage of federal tax revenue dollars this top 1% that some think should pay more, pay now?
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
Do you realize that the government spent $700 billion bailing out the banks that held toxic funds that had deliberately been packaged together with the goals of short-term profits? Do you realize that Citibank just settled a case in which it was documented that they assembled funds that they knew were worthless, sold them to customers, and then bet against those funds?

And you're angry about the dollars that cities have to spend to control crowds at the protests?

I think people are much more concerned about what their city governments are spending, since that is most likely to affect their everyday lives. Not saying it's a good or bad way of thinking, but I think you can probably understand the idea?
 

jason_h537

The King is Back
Messages
6,945
Reaction score
581
I haven't googled it yet....how much of that 700 billion has been paid back? I thought I heard somewhere the Government might even profit from the loans? Is that right?

No, the original plan was for some sort of interest to be placed on the loan but several banks refused to take money if they had to pay back more, Naturally the government folded to their demands. The only time this worked was on the GM bailout. I believe Chrysler is the only one who has yet to pay back the government in full.
 
G

Grahambo

Guest
I slacked off in high school and never gave myself a chance to succeed but when I graduated, I knew what had to be done with the help of my Dad. I joined the Marines but not just any job, for it to really help, I had to pick a good job in the Marines and I tested and qualified for the intelligence field. 5 years later, I work for the federal government and work outta DC. There are ways to fight for yourself and to make yourself successful, you just gotta sacrifice either by studying and going to school or as I did and give 5 years of your life to the military. Not only do I have a secure job and a solid income, I also don't have to pay for school as I'm going to school as well. Even if you have school loans, the military will pay those off for you if you get into the right program. Take charge of your own life because nobody else will.
This isn't a look at what I accomplished post either, in fact, I hate talking about myself but its never too late to fix things in your life, you just gotta sacrifice and be willing to do whatever needs to be done.
 

BeauBenken

Shut up, Richard
Staff member
Messages
16,041
Reaction score
5,491
When I talked to the protestors I was told the whole 99% mumbo jumbo, but that they're each out there protesting for their own reasons. They need more organization if they actually want something to come out of their protests.
 

jason_h537

The King is Back
Messages
6,945
Reaction score
581
I just wonder if anyone here could tell me what percentage of federal tax revenue dollars this top 1% that some think should pay more, pay now?

Its a scale but most earning over a million in revenue pay around 20% or less a year
 

NankerPhelge

WANKER
Messages
805
Reaction score
126
mmmm. That's about the same percentage I pay, and I'm no millionaire. Sounds fair to me. But, anyway, that really wasn't my question. I am curious as to the percentage of federal tax revenue that is paid by the top 1% that these "occupiers" want to tax some more? And how much of the rest of the revenue is paid by the other 99% of us. Does anybody know?
 

autry_denson

Active member
Messages
514
Reaction score
150
I slacked off in high school and never gave myself a chance to succeed but when I graduated, I knew what had to be done with the help of my Dad. I joined the Marines but not just any job, for it to really help, I had to pick a good job in the Marines and I tested and qualified for the intelligence field. 5 years later, I work for the federal government and work outta DC. There are ways to fight for yourself and to make yourself successful, you just gotta sacrifice either by studying and going to school or as I did and give 5 years of your life to the military. Not only do I have a secure job and a solid income, I also don't have to pay for school as I'm going to school as well. Even if you have school loans, the military will pay those off for you if you get into the right program. Take charge of your own life because nobody else will.
This isn't a look at what I accomplished post either, in fact, I hate talking about myself but its never too late to fix things in your life, you just gotta sacrifice and be willing to do whatever needs to be done.

I agree with this post wholeheartedly. It's an important point. Once people start whining about why things are so hard for them they lose my support and a lot of other people's support.

That said, this point does not mean that citizens should not be active in trying to induce change in the system. This is the clearest example of a severe, longstanding recession that was caused purely by the imbalance of political influence in our system, and the resulting deregulation of the finance/lending industries. Traders and lenders acted in immoral ways b/c they could, and b/c they made lots of money doing so - it is a mistake to blame individuals. It was a system that encouraged short-term profits and eliminated regulations that allowed them to do so without consequences.

Bankers have done good for this country since its founding - free-flowing credit is essential to a functioning capitalist democracy. We just have to have a system that regulates the flow of credit in a way that promotes the common good and protects borrowers.

The consequences of not doing so are visible all around us. Yes, some of the TARP $ was repaid - but now the government has billions of dollars in toxic assets that it was forced to buy, the economy has been in shambles for the past three years, Americans have lost trillions of dollars in net worth, and our unemployment rate hasn't dropped.

Again, please don't tell me that you're worried about the overtime pay for cops assigned to the protest detail.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,544
Reaction score
28,990
No, the original plan was for some sort of interest to be placed on the loan but several banks refused to take money if they had to pay back more, Naturally the government folded to their demands. The only time this worked was on the GM bailout. I believe Chrysler is the only one who has yet to pay back the government in full.

Jason, I could be wrong on this, but I don't think that's accurate. While I was still in school at ND I remember being told in a lecture that Goldman Sachs already paid back their bailout in full plus interest and the Government made money on the bailout. Don't really have time to look it up tonight, but I really do think the bailout money was given as loans with interest.
 

jason_h537

The King is Back
Messages
6,945
Reaction score
581
mmmm. That's about the same percentage I pay, and I'm no millionaire. Sounds fair to me. But, anyway, that really wasn't my question. I am curious as to the percentage of federal tax revenue that is paid by the top 1% that these "occupiers" want to tax some more? And how much of the rest of the revenue is paid by the other 99% of us. Does anybody know?

Well 20% of a million is much more than 45% of 30,000. I guess the real question is, is it better to raise the taxes of the lower 50% by 50% for a flat tax or to raise the taxes of the 1% by 2%. BTW both would equal $600 Billion
 

jason_h537

The King is Back
Messages
6,945
Reaction score
581
Jason, I could be wrong on this, but I don't think that's accurate. While I was still in school at ND I remember being told in a lecture that Goldman Sachs already paid back their bailout in full plus interest and the Government made money on the bailout. Don't really have time to look it up tonight, but I really do think the bailout money was given as loans with interest.

Goldman Sachs and other banks did pay the money back because as long as they owed money they could not pay bonuses like they had wanted to. Not sure if the government profited from.
 

BobD

Can't get no satisfaction
Messages
7,918
Reaction score
1,034
Again, please don't tell me that you're worried about the overtime pay for cops assigned to the protest detail.

I live in an area where many towns have laid off a lot of their police force, fire department and teachers. Some towns have closed their entire police force down and contracted with other towns to police them. They just closed the county court in my city, now someone going to court has to drive 30 minutes north to Stockton, Ca (Forbes-Most Miserable city in America). Do you still think I shouldn't be concerned with overtime for police officers?
 
Last edited:

NankerPhelge

WANKER
Messages
805
Reaction score
126
Yeah, Jason, but that, again, is not what I am asking. I don't know what the total federal tax revenue take was in, say, 2010. But let's say it was 100 billion dollars. I'm just curious as to how may of those billions the top 1% contributed, and how many billion the other 99% paid? Does anybody know? Doesn't anyone else see the relevance of the question to this discussion?
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
I live in an area where many towns have laid off a lot of their police force, fire department and teachers. Some towns have closed their entire police force down and contracted with other towns to police them. They just closed the county court in my city, now someone going to court has to drive 30 minutes north to Stockton, Ca (Forbes-Most Miserable city in America). Do you still think I shouldn't be concerned with overtime for police officers?

You should be more concerned about helping Debbie pay back the student loans she took out, to get her Bachelor's degree in Lesbian Studies.

:krazy:
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
Yeah, but that, again, is not what I am asking. I don't know what the total federal tax revenue take was in, say, 2010. But let's say it was 100 billion dollars. I'm just curious as to how may of those billions the top 1% contributed, and how many billion the other 99% paid? Does anybody know? Doesn't anyone else see the relevance of the question to this discussion?

I knew what you were asking. I just have no idea how you would find the information.
 

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
I live in an area where many towns have laid off a lot of their police force, fire department and teachers. Some towns have closed their entire police force down and contracted with other towns to police them. They just closed the county court in my city, now someone going to court has to drive 30 minutes north to Stockton, Ca (Forbes-Most Miserable city in America). Do you still think I shouldn't be concerned with overtime for police officers?

So when it is not financially expedient we should not be allowed our first amendment right of free speech and to protest? Come on. I don't completely agree with them but you can't take it away from them.
 

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
Yeah, Jason, but that, again, is not what I am asking. I don't know what the total federal tax revenue take was in, say, 2010. But let's say it was 100 billion dollars. I'm just curious as to how may of those billions the top 1% contributed, and how many billion the other 99% paid? Does anybody know? Doesn't anyone else see the relevance of the question to this discussion?

I don't think that matters, lets say they paid 40% of income tax, but they made 38% of the money. Who cares that paid 40% as that is pretty close to the total percentage that they made. you really need to know both numbers to get an accurate picture (and yes I will try to find both out for you but I don't know if I can).
 

BobD

Can't get no satisfaction
Messages
7,918
Reaction score
1,034
You should be more concerned about helping Debbie pay back the student loans she took out, to get her Bachelor's degree in Lesbian Studies.

:krazy:

LOL! Sad, but I think UC Berkeley offers a degree something like that.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
So when it is not financially expedient we should not be allowed our first amendment right of free speech and to protest? Come on. I don't completely agree with them but you can't take it away from them.

Who said anything about taking away their right to Free Speech? They can't schedule a series of daily rallies, where everyone goes home and comes back the next day?

They HAVE to camp in public parks (against almost every city's ordinances), create tent cities, and generally disrupt everyone's life, or it's not Free Speech?
 

jason_h537

The King is Back
Messages
6,945
Reaction score
581
You should be more concerned about helping Debbie pay back the student loans she took out, to get her Bachelor's degree in Lesbian Studies.

:krazy:

My school did not offer lesbian studies but i do know that unemployment for current college students is currently at 15%. If your a minority it is 41%

Just imagine how much worse it would be if we taxed these job creators, who since the Clinton administration have payed less taxes every year yet unemployment and national debt has gone up each year as well.
 

autry_denson

Active member
Messages
514
Reaction score
150
I live in an area where many towns have laid off a lot of their police force, fire department and teachers. Some towns have closed their entire police force down and contracted with other towns to police them. They just closed the county court in my city, now someone going to court has to drive 30 minutes north to Stockton, Ca (Forbes-Most Miserable city in America). Do you still think I shouldn't be concerned with overtime for police officers?

You can think of this situation in two ways:

1) You can think about why states and municipalities are in this situation. This brings you into much broader debates about why we are in such a severe recession, which is what I have focused on (remember: most of the $ spent in the Recovery Act was paid directly to states so they could continue to fund cops, teachers, etc).

2) Or you can ignore the causes of the current situation, and focus on how the extremely small amount of money that is required to deal with an emerging set of local protests.

I just don't understand how anyone could focus on the latter issue while ignoring the former. We're talking thousands of dollars lost by the city in relation to trillions of dollars in American citizens' wealth. I don't mean to minimize these local budget issues - but think about where they came from.

And by the way Kmoose: You may be right that many of the protesters look like they're studying Queer Theory at local University X, but a poll came out a few days ago saying that a majority of Americans agree with the principles of the OWS movement - this isn't a fringe group we're talking about.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,544
Reaction score
28,990
You can think of this situation in two ways:

1) You can think about why states and municipalities are in this situation. This brings you into much broader debates about why we are in such a severe recession, which is what I have focused on (remember: most of the $ spent in the Recovery Act was paid directly to states so they could continue to fund cops, teachers, etc).

2) Or you can ignore the causes of the current situation, and focus on how the extremely small amount of money that is required to deal with an emerging set of local protests.

I just don't understand how anyone could focus on the latter issue while ignoring the former. We're talking thousands of dollars lost by the city in relation to trillions of dollars in American citizens' wealth. I don't mean to minimize these local budget issues - but think about where they came from.

And by the way Kmoose: You may be right that many of the protesters look like they're studying Queer Theory at local University X, but a poll came out a few days ago saying that a majority of Americans agree with the principles of the OWS movement - this isn't a fringe group we're talking about.

Can you link this poll? Because I'm not sure if we've even nailed down here what those principles are. Wasn't that the question in the OP?
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
I haven't googled it yet....how much of that 700 billion has been paid back? I thought I heard somewhere the Government might even profit from the loans? Is that right?

You are correct. The US government has made over $10billion on TARP.


I might be wrong, but it is the only time I can remember that our government made that type of ROI on anything.
 
Top