Nov 25 | Stanford

[DillonHall]

BK would have went 11-2 in 2022, Freeman’s first year, even with all those glaring weaknesses.
That’s my point. He can coach.
He would have rotated QBs, mixed-matched WRs, won against horrible teams by closer than should have, but beat bad teams & mediocre teams.
He would have went 11-2, finished around 5th.
That was the program. 11 wins, top 5.

Kelly would have gone 10-2 (losses to OSU and USC) then lost a NY6 game to finish 10-3

 

[Dizzyphil]

Freeman hasn’t had a big win yet… Clemson in 2022 was as overrated as they get and usc this year turned out to be a joke

They were both big wins at the time and in reality freeman had nd ready to beat osu this year and the coaching staff especially him blew it

Your point was 'QB' going into a year...... and I'm not going to lay a missed INT on MF and the coaching staff...

 

[PutuporShutup]

Your point was 'QB' going into a year...... and I'm not going to lay a missed INT on MF and the coaching staff...

It started with play calling when we had the ball needing one more first down, then went to poor coaching of zone prevent on every third and fourth and long, yea brown missed int that could have masked it all, then we had 10 on the field 2 plays in a row

 

[Dizzyphil]

It started with play calling when we had the ball needing one more first down, then went to poor coaching of zone prevent on every third and fourth and long, yea brown missed int that could have masked it all, then we had 10 on the field 2 plays in a row

Yes - you are completely right on that call.... totally agree. That was on MF and DC.

 

[FWIrish4]

BK would have went 11-2 in 2022, Freeman’s first year, even with all those glaring weaknesses.
That’s my point. He can coach.
He would have rotated QBs, mixed-matched WRs, won against horrible teams by closer than should have, but beat bad teams & mediocre teams.
He would have went 11-2, finished around 5th.
That was the program. 11 wins, top 5.

Maybe not with the QB/WR play. This is the same coach that needed a last second win against Toledo, bad FSU and bad VT in the season prior. Let’s not act like BK was blowing out bad teams like freeman is this year.

 

[Crazy Balki]

BK would have went 11-2 in 2022, Freeman’s first year, even with all those glaring weaknesses.
That’s my point. He can coach.
He would have rotated QBs, mixed-matched WRs, won against horrible teams by closer than should have, but beat bad teams & mediocre teams.
He would have went 11-2, finished around 5th.
That was the program. 11 wins, top 5.

The year prior, had it not been for Jack Coan, ND loses to Toledo, who was worse than Marshall.

You act like Kelly has never had a dud performance like Stanford or Marshall. He has. Several.

Navy, Tulsa, USF, Michigan, Pitt, Northwestern, Louisville, USC, Texas, Duke, Michigan State, Miami, Stanford.

Hell, even in the latter half of his tenure, he had near escapes, and it was primarily due to having more talent and good QB play. Navy in 2017, Pitt in 2018, VT in 2019, Louisville in 2020, Toledo and VT in 2021.

 

[Dizzyphil]

The year prior, had it not been for Jack Coan, ND loses to Toledo, who was worse than Marshall.

You act like Kelly has never had a dud performance like Stanford or Marshall. He has. Several.

Navy, Tulsa, USF, Michigan, Pitt, Northwestern, Louisville, USC, Texas, Duke, Michigan State, Miami, Stanford.

Hell, even in the latter half of his tenure, he had near escapes, and it was primarily due to having more talent and good QB play. Navy in 2017, Pitt in 2018, VT in 2019, Louisville in 2020, Toledo and VT in 2021.

do you include Rees' play calling?

 

[PutuporShutup]

do you include Rees' play calling?

Kelly had to come in an change Rees play calling and freeman’s D scheme in 2021 to get to 11-1… Kelly has short comings, big time, but let’s not pretend freeman is doing a good job other than recruiting

 

[Dizzyphil]

Kelly had to come in an change Rees play calling and freeman’s D scheme in 2021 to get to 11-1… Kelly has short comings, big time, but let’s not pretend freeman is doing a good job other than recruiting

?

 

[Reaper97]

Maybe not with the QB/WR play. This is the same coach that needed a last second win against Toledo, bad FSU and bad VT in the season prior. Let’s not act like BK was blowing out bad teams like freeman is this year.

That’s my point.

He would have barely beat bad & mediocre teams. But still would have won. “Barely beat” is infinitely better than “loss to.“

I would love to have “barely beat” Stanford & Marshall. And have a boring, business trip to Louisville.

 

[stlnd01]

Kelly had to come in an change Rees play calling and freeman’s D scheme in 2021 to get to 11-1… Kelly has short comings, big time, but let’s not pretend freeman is doing a good job other than recruiting

Freeman has also done a good job at getting his team to overcome bad losses.
Yes, the bad losses are on him, too. For sure. But Marshall/Stanford last year and Louisville this year could have torpedoed our seasons, and ultimately they didn’t. That is not nothing, and it was not always the case under Kelly (2014 and 2017 come to mind).

 

[Reaper97]

Freeman has also done a good job at getting his team to overcome bad losses.
Yes, the bad losses are on him, too. For sure. But Marshall/Stanford last year and Louisville this year could have torpedoed our seasons, and ultimately they didn’t. That is not nothing, and it was not always the case under Kelly (2014 and 2017 come to mind).

2017 was 10-3, which Freeman is hoping, really bad, to match.

 

[PutuporShutup]

?

Sorry was more a general statement than directed at you… my point was Kelly actually helped his coordinators … freeman needs his coordinators to help him

 

[stlnd01]

2017 was 10-3, which Freeman is hoping, really bad, to match.

Not my point. The end result will be similar. I agree.

But in 2017, after rolling to seven relatively easy wins in a row, we lost an all-time stinker at Miami and then needed a second half comeback to beat Navy and lost by three scores to Stanford. Adversity kicked our asses.

In 2022 and 2023 we lost stinkers for sure. But then rebounded to beat Top 10 teams and salvage seasons rather than further circle the drain. Adversity did not defeat us.

I was responding to a post that said the only thing Freeman does well is recruiting and I would add to that he also seems to be able to get our team up for big games and after bad losses. In a way his predecessor at times did not. That is hardly the only thing that goes into being a good coach at Notre Dame. But it is not nothing.

 

[Circa]

This argument has not devolved into whether you like Kelly or Freeman more, because it’s always been that way. What makes it difficult to agree with people who praise the good Kelly did while overlooking his significant flaws is the notion that Freeman hasn’t done anything good in coaching. We are well-aware of Freeman’s flaws and glaring moments of poor coaching. We are also well-aware of Kelly’s. I’m not particularly fond of Freeman at the moment either, but to write that it’s pretending to say freeman has “done a good job other than recruiting” is absurd. Posters like stlnd01 make a point of balance in the argument and it’s let’s overlook 2014. That’s why it’s better to just say you like Kelly and don’t like Freeman. That’s fine, but at least be objectively clear about it. Kelly good. Freeman bad. Got it.

Kelly took us through 10 years of typical politician BS.
Always right around the corner... But so far away.

It reminds me of being poor, and needing food stamps for the kids..., but making $400.00 over the yearly limit and eating garbage, because that's all we could afford...

He also fought some seriously bad officiating tho.... We beat FSU in 2014 and 1993. And we should claim the '93 Championship as well... Just like Bama has done to claim 3 extra.....

 

[Dizzyphil]

Sorry was more a general statement than directed at you… my point was Kelly actually helped his coordinators … freeman needs his coordinators to help him

The ? wasn't to demean you.... was just wondering... thanks brother

 

[benneboy]

Freeman hasn’t had a big win yet… Clemson in 2022 was as overrated as they get and usc this year turned out to be a joke

They were both big wins at the time and in reality freeman had nd ready to beat osu this year and the coaching staff especially him blew it

Huh? Clemson went 10-2 and destroyed a good NC team in the Acc championship to get to 11 wins. Their only other regular season loss was by 1 point to a good south Carolina team. We beat them into Dabo questioning everything he's ever known about football. It was a huge win

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Freeman hasn’t had a big win yet… Clemson in 2022 was as overrated as they get and usc this year turned out to be a joke

They were both big wins at the time and in reality freeman had nd ready to beat osu this year and the coaching staff especially him blew it

Then so was OU in 2012. OU got embarrassed by Johnny Football in the bowl game. Plus, OU lost a home game earlier that season (KSU?).

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Huh? Clemson went 10-2 and destroyed a good NC team in the Acc championship to get to 11 wins. Their only other regular season loss was by 1 point to a good south Carolina team. We beat them into Dabo questioning everything he's ever known about football. It was a huge win

And Clemson was undefeated & top 5 at the time so how do you blame MF for the fact that Clemson went on to lose to USCe?

 

[FWIrish4]

That’s my point.

He would have barely beat bad & mediocre teams. But still would have won. “Barely beat” is infinitely better than “loss to.“

I would love to have “barely beat” Stanford & Marshall. And have a boring, business trip to Louisville.

You missed my point. He squeaked out wins against bad teams because of a 5th year grad transfer QB. That was not on the roster in 2022.

Also, you know who hasn’t had to “barely beat” bad teams in just their second year? Our current coach. We’re not mucking it up with bad teams this year, we are destroying them.

We sure a boring business trip to Louisville is a sure thing? The Cincinnati game didn’t happen in 2021 at home? Michigan, Miami disasters in prior years on the road? What about Kelly’s LSU team you thought was really good last year that lost to a 5-7 A&M team?

I tend to agree with a lot of your posts. Both coaches have flaws. I think there’s a lot of revisionist history here when it comes to BK and never losing bad games.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

The year prior, had it not been for Jack Coan, ND loses to Toledo, who was worse than Marshall.

You act like Kelly has never had a dud performance like Stanford or Marshall. He has. Several.

Navy, Tulsa, USF, Michigan, Pitt, Northwestern, Louisville, USC, Texas, Duke, Michigan State, Miami, Stanford.

Hell, even in the latter half of his tenure, he had near escapes, and it was primarily due to having more talent and good QB play. Navy in 2017, Pitt in 2018, VT in 2019, Louisville in 2020, Toledo and VT in 2021.

Lots of revisionist history for sure. BK is a CFB HOF HC but to make him out as an in-game guru is laughable. He inherited an underachieving program that was loaded w/ more talent than MF inherited. BK should have won a minimum of 10 games the first two seasons. A lot of those losses came down to in-game decisions. 2010: Tulsa, MSU & scUM all should’ve been wins. And that’s giving him grace on the Navy loss. 2011: USF, scUM, shit the bead against Lane Kiffin at home in prime time & of course the colossal choke job in the bowl game vs Jimbo & FSU.

2012 was great but every other season between 2010-2016 was inexcusable when looking at expectations that were based on BK’s pedigree & HC history. I’m not saying MF is the next Kirby Smart…he may be gone in five years…but a portion of the ND fan base/media love to forget about pre-2017 w/ BK when he was forced to make changes to his staff.

Look at the offense he inherited:

Michael Floyd - 5*
Dayne Christ - 5*
TJ Jones - 4*
Kyle Rudolph - 4* (#1 HS TE in the country)
Cierre Wood - 4*
Armando Allen - 4*
Theo Riddick - 4*
Mike Ragone - 4*
Zack Martin - 4*
Chris Watt - 4*
Trevor Robinson - 4*
Jonas Gray - 4*

Defense had plenty of playmakers inherited as well:

Manti Te’o
KLM
Louis Nix (maintained his commitment after Weis firing)
Robert Blanton
Harrison Smith
Prince Shembo
Zeke Motta
Gary Gray
Bennett Jackson
Tyler Stockton
Darius Fleming
Brandon Newman
Jamoris Slaughter
Steve Filer
Carlos Calabrese
Dan Fox

 

[IRISHDODGER]

2017 was 10-3, which Freeman is hoping, really bad, to match.

What was the score in that Miami game again?

 

[IRISHDODGER]

I want ND to win as much as everybody.

I just have had reservations about Freeman’s gameday decisions since the Okie St Bowl Game.
Lucci has the same concerns as me.

And it’s not experience level decisions.
It’s bad decisions a HS JV coach doesn’t make. I think Freeman gets lost during the game.

Like the decision BK made vs Tulsa in 2010? SMH. Even idiot message board fan boys would’ve made the right call to secure the win that day. Instead he has his true fresh QB throw into the end zone for an interception. Brilliant.

 

[PutuporShutup]

Huh? Clemson went 10-2 and destroyed a good NC team in the Acc championship to get to 11 wins. Their only other regular season loss was by 1 point to a good south Carolina team. We beat them into Dabo questioning everything he's ever known about football. It was a huge win

The same UNC team we whipped on their home field after looking bad the 3 weeks leading into it?

Acc had no D that year, they were the only teams we played well against too! But couldn’t beat Marshall or Stanford. The games we looked good in last year were UNC, Clemson, BC, Syracuse

 

[PutuporShutup]

Then so was OU in 2012. OU got embarrassed by Johnny Football in the bowl game. Plus, OU lost a home game earlier that season (KSU?).

Agree except we did it at their place. Looked what happened when we went to Clemson and faced a solid at best clemson team

 

[irishff1014]

Freeman hasn’t had a big win yet… Clemson in 2022 was as overrated as they get and usc this year turned out to be a joke

They were both big wins at the time and in reality freeman had nd ready to beat osu this year and the coaching staff especially him blew it

But I bet if he would have lost those games you would have been saying Freeman can’t beat a ranked team. Blah blah

 

[PutuporShutup]

But I bet if he would have lost those games you would have been saying Freeman can’t beat a ranked team. Blah blah

I think you need talent to beat the very best, freeman is helping there. But you need to be a really good coach to get to the cfp. Freeman is far from that.

Kelly could get to the big games but couldn’t do squat in them. Freeman has the team better suited to compete and win the big games but can’t get to them. Not even close

 

[T-Boone]

I think you need talent to beat the very best, freeman is helping there. But you need to be a really good coach to get to the cfp. Freeman is far from that.

Kelly could get to the big games but couldn’t do squat in them. Freeman has the team better suited to compete and win the big games but can’t get to them. Not even close

last year was his first and this year was a tough schedule. Lets see next year with an easier schedule his first choice OC and Angeli.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

BK would have went 11-2 in 2022, Freeman’s first year, even with all those glaring weaknesses.
That’s my point. He can coach.
He would have rotated QBs, mixed-matched WRs, won against horrible teams by closer than should have, but beat bad teams & mediocre teams.
He would have went 11-2, finished around 5th.
That was the program. 11 wins, top 5.

What do you think the 2021 team’s record would be if they lost Jack Coan for the year during the Toledo game?

 

[PutuporShutup]

What do you think the 2021 team’s record would be if they lost Jack Coan for the year during the Toledo game?

Jack coan knew how to take a hit and not break a bone… lol

Can’t compare coan to Buchner in any way