Notre Dame's recruiting philosophy & evolution

[BobbyMac]

This is a VERY interesting piece and sheds light on something I've harped on since I joined this site.

As I've sorta shared, I've done some pretty comprehensive analysis on who/when/where & how ND recruits/offers.

I'd love to sit down with the program and compare & contrast findings and what their plan is to evolve into the 2020's world of elite college football recruiting.

Anyways, reps to Pete Sampson@Scout on this piece.

Swarbrick: More recruiting resources needed

Swarbrick: More recruiting resources needed
Jack Swarbrick believes Notre Dame’s programs hit the mark in recruiting talent. Where he believes there’s room for improvement is finding fits.


Editor’s Note: Earlier this month Notre Dame Vice President and Director of Athletics Jack Swarbrick sat down with Irish Illustrated for a wide-ranging interview that explored his faith in Brian Kelly, future football schedules, upgrades to facilities and investing in student welfare. That interview also included a conversation about recruiting.

The story got Jack Swarbrick’s attention.

Earlier this summer, Cleveland.com published a deep dive into Ohio State’s recruiting operation that detailed the Buckeyes’ 10-person recruiting department that’s funded with combined salaries in excess of $600,000. The piece detailed how Ohio State identify talent and how it recruits it, from film evaluations to on-campus visits to social media engagement.

Considering Ohio State is on pace for a historic class this cycle – the Buckeyes have as many Top 100 prospects committed as the entire Big Ten and Notre Dame combined – it was the find of expose that can trigger soul searching elsewhere.

Yet for Swarbrick that wasn’t the reaction, at least not exactly. But Notre Dame’s athletics director does believe the University can upgrade how it approaches talent acquisition.

“Our resource focus is on fit evaluation more than talent evaluation,” Swarbrick told Irish Illustrated. “I very much think we have to give our coaches additional resources to evaluate fit. That’s by far our biggest challenge.

“This is a unique place. It provides extraordinary benefit to young people who take full advantage of it. Whether it’s reflected in our graduation rate or just the evaluation of students, for the right kid this is an unbelievable place.

“Our challenge is when we miss on fit because it’s much harder for our coaches to fill a hole in the roster. They’re not going to take a junior college transfer, they’re not going to over-sign a class. They’ll carry that for a couple years if we miss on fit.”

To that end, Notre Dame plans to hire Bill Rees to assist in evaluations after he filled a similar role at Wake Forest. The father of quarterbacks coach Tommy Rees has evaluation and scouting experience with the Kansas City Chiefs, Chicago Bears, San Francisco 49ers and Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Rees also was as an assistant coach and recruiting coordinator at UCLA from 1979-94.

If the Rees hire is an investment in manpower, Swarbrick also wants to enhance Notre Dame’s data library.

“We need to engage in a more robust analysis of whether there are factors that predict success at Notre Dame beyond the obvious ones,” Swarbrick said. “Are there things you can look at, objective information, that you can capture about people? That’s what Fortune 500 companies do when they’re trying to hire. It’s what the military invests so much money in.

“We’ve been engaged in regression analysis of our classes over the last 10 years to try to find if there is anything that’s predictive that helps suggest success.”

Beyond that, Notre Dame wants to do a better job getting under the hood of prospects before trying to sign them.

“Every coach here is focused on trying to attract people who can be future leaders of their teams, but assessing leadership is incredibly hard,” Swarbrick said. “Just because they were a captain of their high school team doesn’t mean they’ll be an effective leader here.

“Can we give them some simple measures of things to look for? The major league sports have invested majorly in this. The NFL can make everyone take the Wonderlic test. In a recruiting context you can’t do that. So how do you do it? Are there questions that give you insights into personality traits?”

These are the kinds of questions the Irish want to ask.

That’s not exactly following Ohio State’s lead in recruiting, but it’s a way to get Notre Dame on an improved recruiting path.

“Talent evaluation is very important and we certainly engage in that,” Swarbrick said. “But fit evaluation is, to me, the difference maker for us.”

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Can Notre Dame be better in recruiting? Jack Swarbrick thinks so. Here's how the Irish can get there. <a href="https://t.co/BCo5usCNZg">https://t.co/BCo5usCNZg</a> <a href="https://t.co/T0lczYS7t3">pic.twitter.com/T0lczYS7t3</a></p>— Irish Illustrated (@PeteSampson_) <a href="https://twitter.com/PeteSampson_/status/890244639055388674">July 26, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[dwshade]

I like the approach and especially the addition of a knowledgeable guy like Bill Rees.

 

[DONTH8]

I think this is why I haven't been upset with our recruiting in a while. I think Notre Dame has taken the approach of rather than manipulating and trying to force a kid to sign, they instead let the kid come to his own decision. Shawn Crawford was the first one I noticed. Instead of getting him to commit on his visit, they told him to go home and think about it and make a decision while he isn't on an ND high. I can respect that.

It's why people like Simon, Austin, and a few others this cycle aren't committing right away. I think ND is really stressing the fact that they need to consider their commitment before saying they'll go to ND. And I'm ok with that. I'd rather have kids that know what they are getting into and committed to excel under the unique circumstances, than kids who will flake and leave us in terrible situations. Like Swarbrick said, if we miss once, it can effect us for an extended period of time because we can't fix it like some other schools can.

That's just my .02

 

[dublinirish]

I think this is why I haven't been upset with our recruiting in a while. I think Notre Dame has taken the approach of rather than manipulating and trying to force a kid to sign, they instead let the kid come to his own decision. Shawn Crawford was the first one I noticed. Instead of getting him to commit on his visit, they told him to go home and think about it and make a decision while he isn't on an ND high. I can respect that.

It's why people like Simon, Austin, and a few others this cycle aren't committing right away. I think ND is really stressing the fact that they need to consider their commitment before saying they'll go to ND. And I'm ok with that. I'd rather have kids that know what they are getting into and committed to excel under the unique circumstances, than kids who will flake and leave us in terrible situations. Like Swarbrick said, if we miss once, it can effect us for an extended period of time because we can't fix it like some other schools can.

That's just my .02

the no-visit policy is also effecting this.

 

[BobbyMac]

I think this is why I haven't been upset with our recruiting in a while. I think Notre Dame has taken the approach of rather than manipulating and trying to force a kid to sign, they instead let the kid come to his own decision. Shawn Crawford was the first one I noticed. Instead of getting him to commit on his visit, they told him to go home and think about it and make a decision while he isn't on an ND high. I can respect that.

It's why people like Simon, Austin, and a few others this cycle aren't committing right away. I think ND is really stressing the fact that they need to consider their commitment before saying they'll go to ND. And I'm ok with that. I'd rather have kids that know what they are getting into and committed to excel under the unique circumstances, than kids who will flake and leave us in terrible situations. Like Swarbrick said, if we miss once, it can effect us for an extended period of time because we can't fix it like some other schools can.

That's just my .02

Make no mistake, they are still missing. Look at the transfers, look at the positional grouping per class, look and the positional whiffs per cycle. If you get 5 RKG's at SDE/DT in the same class, because you recruited poorly in prior cycles, you are guaranteed to miss on some whether it's taking #'s late because you need bodies or the odd man out leaves for playing time. Also, last minute recruiting forces you out of ND's demo box and when you take a public school kid from Conway, AR lets say vs. a kid from a Cincy Catholic school, your success rate is guaranteed to go down.

That's why I half joke about the Catholic school auto offers for ND demo kids. They are already in the Catholic school / football program model.

There's a hundred facets to this stone so I'll stop here and get back to my other tab.

 

[Irishize]

I like the strategy. IMO, key is still getting the rare DL who want to go to a superior academic institution, can qualify & stay. Instead, these seem to matriculate to Stanford. ND needs to hold onto & build this class and hopefully put it all together in 2-3 years. Just too thin at DL right now.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

Some very interesting stuff. There's a whole lot of complexities to recruiting here, I'd love to see what they come up with in regards to profiles etc. There are certainly unique challenges at ND. I'm sure the brainpower is there along with the cash to figure out the most efficient model.

 

[BobbyMac]

I like the strategy. IMO, key is still getting the rare DL who want to go to a superior academic institution, can qualify & stay. Instead, these seem to matriculate to Stanford. ND needs to hold onto & build this class and hopefully put it all together in 2-3 years. Just too thin at DL right now.

The truth is you have to go back to Solomon Thomas in 2014 to find a season where Stanford really won the war and even that year ND landed four 4 stars:

Trumbetti
Hayes
Blankenship
Cage

At the time, there was good reason to hyped about Trumbetti and the haul was pretty good on paper, better overall than Stanford's going in but Thomas single handedly won that class on his own.

Besides that, Ryan Johnson was the only player i think ND would have preferred at pure DE over who ND brought in at that position so that excludes ND's DT haul in '17:

Johnson > McCollister or Wardlow.

Now if MTA stays at SDE somehow and Wardlow scratches his upside, even this cycle goes to the Irish. When you figure in the projected DT haul of Ewell, Hinish and likely MTA, ND is far better than Johnson and Wade-Perry who ND flirted but was really a 3-4 NT all along, would have been even worse fit for Elko.

Even if Booker heads that way, Stanford could never catch the Ade's and Franklin plus whoever else they bring in at DE.

Overall, ND's been killing Stanford on the DL... and just wait for ND's '19 DL class.

 

[Domina Nostra]

The strategy is sound but its a result of analyzing Kelly's failures.

Phase 1 Kelly know the recruiting game very well, coming from D2 and Cincinnati.

Phase 2 Kelly tried to adapt to big-time recruiting by becoming like the other big-time recruiters. He started to see some real success and landed his share of 5-stars.

But unlike other big-time programs, getting in the door isn't the only obstacle. This was probably VERY discouraging. We lost some major talent in years 3-6. His program suffered as a result, and he earned his reputation accordingly. Had Aaron Lynch, Davonte Neal, and some other stayed, and the academic scandals been glossed over, we'd be thinking of Kelly in a different light.

Phase 3 Kelly has been a little lost and not really known how to approach things.

This strategy is the result.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Overall, ND's been killing Stanford on the DL... and just wait for ND's '19 DL class.

And overall, Stanford's been killing us on the field. #coaching

 

[dwshade]

The strategy is sound but its a result of analyzing Kelly's failures.

Phase 1 Kelly know the recruiting game very well, coming from D2 and Cincinnati.

Phase 2 Kelly tried to adapt to big-time recruiting by becoming like the other big-time recruiters. He started to see some real success and landed his share of 5-stars.

But unlike other big-time programs, getting in the door isn't the only obstacle. This was probably VERY discouraging. We lost some major talent in years 3-6. His program suffered as a result, and he earned his reputation accordingly. Had Aaron Lynch, Davonte Neal, and some other stayed, and the academic scandals been glossed over, we'd be thinking of Kelly in a different light.

Phase 3 Kelly has been a little lost and not really known how to approach things.

This strategy is the result.

This was going on long before Kelly. Until now no one has really attempted to identify the problem and develop a solution.

 

[FWIrish4]

This is very similar to what I found so interesting about the Cubs' turnaround and eventual World Series last year. Epstein essentially started analyzing soft skills and scouted personality/traits/character just as much as physical tools. The thought of having a talented, but extremely cohesive unit that share very high levels of competiveness, loyalty, and character takes the team from good to great. The neautrality of evenly talented teams comes down to execution, coaching, and an unmeasurable amount of these team traits. I think that way of thinking has become an after thought with the advanced level of training and physical tools that are present these days, but they are still equally as important as ever.

I'm not sure how Notre Dame mimics this in recruiting, but there are places to learn from. Could you imagine 11 Drue Tranquil minded defenders on defense?

 

[DONTH8]

Make no mistake, they are still missing. Look at the transfers, look at the positional grouping per class, look and the positional whiffs per cycle. If you get 5 RKG's at SDE/DT in the same class, because you recruited poorly in prior cycles, you are guaranteed to miss on some whether it's taking #'s late because you need bodies or the odd man out leaves for playing time. Also, last minute recruiting forces you out of ND's demo box and when you take a public school kid from Conway, AR lets say vs. a kid from a Cincy Catholic school, your success rate is guaranteed to go down.

That's why I half joke about the Catholic school auto offers for ND demo kids. They are already in the Catholic school / football program model.

There's a hundred facets to this stone so I'll stop here and get back to my other tab.

You're absolutely right. That's why I was saying we really have to make a conscious effort to make all the guys stay that we recruit, and not manipulate them into committing. Is it perfect? No. But at a place like Notre Dame where we can't perfectly prepare them for the strain of academics and football, it's really impractical to expect perfection for every kid to be a success and stick. We just need to study the prospects more than the average school, and go about it differently than a normal university because it's just so much more different at ND than elsewhere.

That being said, Dublin brings up a good point about the no-visit policy. It's a tough call, very polarizing. It's something that I can't get behind. I think it's too much of a strong arm move for me to want to do. I would have to trust that ND is going to be more impressive than about any other school or university's experience. That being said, I'm not going to criticize our coaching staff for implementing it. But it's definitely a reason that recruits hold out on committing, and one could argue has/does cost us a few recruits every cycle and therefore should be removed.

 

[BobbyMac]

And overall, Stanford's been killing us on the field. #coaching

I haven't ever neg repped anyone on this site but you deserve one.

Mods,

I vote him off the island. He's 100% troll.

 

[NDgradstudent]

I haven't ever neg repped anyone on this site but you deserve one.

Mods,

I vote him off the island. He's 100% troll.

Are you disagreeing with what I said? What is Kelly's record vs. Stanford?

There are a shocking number of people on IE who think that posters should be banned because they hold the "wrong" opinions. I'm not sure what the purpose of a forum site is if any dissenters from the majority view are banned.

 

[Irishize]

And overall, Stanford's been killing us on the field. #coaching

You beat me to it. If we are getting better talent yet still losing, it points directly to player development & coaching. ND had zero business losing to Stanford the last two years. If BK gets fired, we can all point to the BVG hire as the beginning of the end.

 

[Rocket89]

Are you disagreeing with what I said? What is Kelly's record vs. Stanford?

There are a shocking number of people on IE who think that posters should be banned because they hold the "wrong" opinions. I'm not sure what the purpose of a forum site is if any dissenters from the majority view are banned.

"What should I know? Why do you have to talk to me like that all the time? Like I gotta know something"?

Most of the time you post real basic anti-Notre Dame stuff. Like no one was aware before you enlightened the board on something a 7-year old could type.

Worse still, you want to be congratulated for it or praised for being so smart, so unlike the homers.

I think you know pretty well you lack substance and just like being a troll. Does that deserve a ban? Probably not, but you're the last person who should be tooting their own horn, that's for damn sure.

 

[NDRock]

Are you disagreeing with what I said? What is Kelly's record vs. Stanford?

There are a shocking number of people on IE who think that posters should be banned because they hold the "wrong" opinions. I'm not sure what the purpose of a forum site is if any dissenters from the majority view are banned.

As I'm sure you're aware, every forum has its own personality. This site skews more positive than something like NDNation, where any positivity is quickly squashed. I think the problem people have with you, is you're a one trick pony. You rarely post anything that isn't negative. It was better when it was just political threads but sometime last season you brought your outlook onto the football discussions. I really don't think you're a troll, just a miserable person. I hope for your sake you're a happier person in "real" life.

I for one don't want you banned, as you bring some shadenfreude to my life. You seem miserable and I take enjoyment out of it. Almost makes me hope for 7-5.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Most of the time you post real basic anti-Notre Dame stuff. Like no one was aware before you enlightened the board on something a 7-year old could type.

A majority of the board wanted to retain Kelly, so apparently plenty of people were unaware of some reasons why he should be gone. And I feel bad for any seven year old who has only known the rule of Kellybrick.

Worse still, you want to be congratulated for it or praised for being so smart, so unlike the homers.

Do you want to produce a quote of mine to this effect? Or just point-and-sputter?

I think you know pretty well you lack substance and just like being a troll. Does that deserve a ban? Probably not, but you're the last person who should be tooting their own horn, that's for damn sure.

Lack substance? I post tons of graphs and charts, see for example here
and here. Responding to a demand that I be banned is now tooting my own horn? Forgive me if I dissent.

As I'm sure you're aware, every forum has its own personality. This site skews more positive than something like NDNation, where any positivity is quickly squashed. I think the problem people have with you, is you're a one trick pony. You rarely post anything that isn't negative. It was better when it was just political threads but sometime last season you brought your outlook onto the football discussions. I really don't think you're a troll, just a miserable person. I hope for your sake you're a happier person in "real" life.

I for one don't want you banned, as you bring some shadenfreude to my life. You seem miserable and I take enjoyment out of it. Almost makes me hope for 7-5.

Again, you obviously haven't seen many of my posts. As I mentioned above I post tons of charts and graphs. I also post extensively in the discussions about ND basketball, lacrosse, and hockey.

You don't need to worry about my happiness, I'm doing just fine. We're here principally to talk about Notre Dame football and we're coming off the second-worst season in the past 53 years. I consider that hugely shocking. What is the appropriate attitude to take in response? Joy?

 

[stlnd01]

. What is the appropriate attitude to take in response? Joy?

How about perspective? Would a little of that be OK to take?

 

[Rocket89]

A majority of the board wanted to retain Kelly, so apparently plenty of people were unaware of some reasons why he should be gone. And I feel bad for any seven year old who has only known the rule of Kellybrick.

What does this have to do with the OP's shared article, or more specifically, the sentence you quoted about Notre Dame out-recruiting Stanford on the D-line?

Do you want to produce a quote of mine to this effect? Or just point-and-sputter?

It's always you vs. the board. It's in the every fiber of your being. After all, we're all just unaware of Kelly's record against Stanford.

Lack substance? I post tons of graphs and charts, see for example here
and here. Responding to a demand that I be banned is now tooting my own horn? Forgive me if I dissent.

Isn't this the epitome of lacking substance? You pasted some graphs and links and called it a day. This is some of your best work eh?

 

[NDgradstudent]

What does this have to do with the OP's shared article, or more specifically, the sentence you quoted about Notre Dame out-recruiting Stanford on the D-line?

The fact that ND has been out-recruiting Stanford and still losing to Stanford suggests that something else is the problem, wouldn't you say?

It's always you vs. the board. It's in the every fiber of your being. After all, we're all just unaware of Kelly's record against Stanford.

I guess that's a 'no.'

Isn't this the epitome of lacking substance? You pasted some graphs and links and called it a day. This is some of your best work eh?

Data isn't substantive? That data in particular seriously undermines that oft-repeated claim that academic restrictions are the reason ND that football isn't where it should be.

 

[Rocket89]

The fact that ND has been out-recruiting Stanford and still losing to Stanford suggests that something else is the problem, wouldn't you say?

This is a thread about recruiting. What you could've just easily have said is that despite poor results on the field against Stanford they're still out-recruiting them on DL.

But like the gimp of Rock's House that you are you couldn't dare let a positive like that stand, and like the classic hallmark of any Rock's House disciple, you have to bring every last damn thing back to coaching, quite literally no matter what.

This is why you're the guy at the party that everyone hates.

Data isn't substantive? That data in particular seriously undermines that oft-repeated claim that academic restrictions are the reason ND that football isn't where it should be.

You took one of the most complex issues in college football, posted some graphs, and believe you undermined some claims? Who did you convince other than yourself?

 

[IrishLax]

This is a thread about recruiting. What you could've just easily have said is that despite poor results on the field against Stanford they're still out-recruiting them on DL.

But like the gimp of Rock's House that you are you couldn't dare let a positive like that stand, and like the classic hallmark of any Rock's House disciple, you have to bring every last damn thing back to coaching, quite literally no matter what.

This is why you're the guy at the party that everyone hates.

You took one of the most complex issues in college football, posted some graphs, and believe you undermined some claims? Who did you convince other than yourself?

 

[NDgradstudent]

This is a thread about recruiting. What you could've just easily have said is that despite poor results on the field against Stanford they're still out-recruiting them on DL.

Isn't the point of recruiting to win games?

You took one of the most complex issues in college football, posted some graphs, and believe you undermined some claims? Who did you convince other than yourself?

I didn't say that I convinced anybody. You said that I didn't make substantive posts, which was false.

 

[irishtrain]

I like the strategy. IMO, key is still getting the rare DL who want to go to a superior academic institution, can qualify & stay. Instead, these seem to matriculate to Stanford. ND needs to hold onto & build this class and hopefully put it all together in 2-3 years. Just too thin at DL right now.

The type of kid needed to win games does not want Notre Dame anymore-they have been lead to believe that they can succeed in life while not having to work for their education. They want the same treatment they got in high school and will not tolerate academics or a sound education system in their way at college. Even if they are not NFL types they still want the football easy ride-that's why they go to these other schools. They are not stupid- they know at places like Notre Dame you have to more like the student population even with your academic counseling they know they have to work. I suppose because of atmosphere to many of them Stanford would seem more fun. I think you have to find the kid and they are few and far between like say for example a McGlinghey Zorich, Prittchett etc who simply want to make a mark. Stanford is like Notre Dame (maybe more academically competitive) but I bet the kids go there because they feel its less restrictive.

 

[Crazy Balki]

That depends. If we're referring to the Rashan Gary-type of players, well we did land a few 5-star level DL prospects a few years back, Tuitt, Lynch, Ishaq and Day come to mind. Key difference is that elite DL need to be sold on winning at this level and making it big at the next. Some will take on the ND challenge if it means they get the best of both worlds. They see teams like Alabama, Ohio State and Clemson churning out defensive linemen left and right and they gravitate towards that. If ND starts winning games and developing DL then they can do much of the same.

In addition, JMO but you don't need to land a 5-star DT/DE to have a dominant defense. Clemson had a great defensive line in 2015. There starters comprised of:

DE: Kevin Dodd (3-star Defensive Tackle)
DT: DJ Reader (3-star Offensive Guard)
DT: Carlos Watkins (4-star Defensive Tackle)
DE: Shaq Lawson (4-star Defensive End)

That talent eventually led to the acquisition of Dexter Lawrence and the continued dominance up front, despite his greenness.

Their talent up front that year was fairly comparable to ours. Heck, I'd say ours was a little bit better. ND needs to coach up and develop that talent in the weight room. Get guys like Jerry Tillery, Jay Hayes and Jonathan Bonner, etc. playing up to their talent level.

 

[IrishLion]

There are a shocking number of people on IE who think that posters should be banned because they hold the "wrong" opinions. I'm not sure what the purpose of a forum site is if any dissenters from the majority view are banned.

It's not because you hold the wrong opinion.

It's because you make no effort whatsoever at honest discourse. You'll pop your head into a recruiting thread to make yet another lazy statement about your displeasure with Kelly's on-field coaching and results.

When someone refutes your point, or concedes disappointment but comes back with things that can be celebrated or acknowledged as "good," you either ignore it or move the goalposts. When someone defeats your trolling soundly, you disappear for a day or two.

At some point, the conversation in this thread would have organically made its way to the on-field stuff. But you just bashed the front door down, and I think it shows your general motivation for posting here.

Go back to NDNation, you lemming.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

Crusader, could you by chance share some of the variables you've put together that would constitute a fit here? I find this topic incredibly interesting. I know we can't give psychological profile tests to recruits, but I'm curious as to some variables. I'm sure geography, catholic school etc are the obvious ones. But I'm curious as to early identification of prospects other than what appear to be the obvious. If not, I completely understand.

 

[Irishize]

The type of kid needed to win games does not want Notre Dame anymore-they have been lead to believe that they can succeed in life while not having to work for their education. They want the same treatment they got in high school and will not tolerate academics or a sound education system in their way at college. Even if they are not NFL types they still want the football easy ride-that's why they go to these other schools. They are not stupid- they know at places like Notre Dame you have to more like the student population even with your academic counseling they know they have to work. I suppose because of atmosphere to many of them Stanford would seem more fun. I think you have to find the kid and they are few and far between like say for example a McGlinghey Zorich, Prittchett etc who simply want to make a mark. Stanford is like Notre Dame (maybe more academically competitive) but I bet the kids go there because they feel its less restrictive.

I agree. It's really hammered home when I watch "Last Chance U". They've had some SEC-caliber DL....both athletically & academically. Crazily, they landed at FBS programs. Some of these kids haven't learned basic English (as seen in one of the episodes where English teacher helps one of the DL with a paper).