[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[wizards8507]

But if you get caught you pay the consequences right? Yes you do by suspension or fine.

The difference is that there's no possible way for pine tire to appear on your bat without you putting it there on purpose. There are 9,000 different ways for a football to lose air pressure without anyone beeing at fault.

If they had video of Belichick, Brady, or a ball boy sticking a needle into a football and letting air out, I would NOT be sitting here telling you "it's no big deal." They should be fined or whatever else. The fact is, that video doesn't exist so we don't know that's what happened.

To address your point directly: Yes, if you get caught you pay consequences. But nobody has been caught.

 

[bkess8]

The difference is that there's no possible way for pine tire to appear on your bat without you putting it there on purpose. There are 9,000 different ways for a football to lose air pressure without anyone beeing at fault.

If they had video of Belichick, Brady, or a ball boy sticking a needle into a football and letting air out, I would NOT be sitting here telling you "it's no big deal." They should be fined or whatever else. The fact is, that video doesn't exist so we don't know that's what happened.

To address your point directly: Yes, if you get caught you pay consequences. But nobody has been caught.

But which one of those 9,000 ways only affects 11 out of the 12 balls?

Also wouldn't Brady notice the difference or at least feel that something was different?

 

[wizards8507]

NFL conducting investigation into claim that New England Patriots used underinflated footballs - ESPN Boston

 

[gkIrish]

NFL conducting investigation into claim that New England Patriots used underinflated footballs - ESPN Boston

AHA!



So there goes the BS theory about Brady's stats going through the roof with deflated balls in the second half.

Sweet vindication. I expect retroactive reps for all of my previous posts, especially from gkIrish.

Lol..... It's been known from literally the very beginning that the balls were properly inflated in the second half. Apparently you just found this out.


I'm so glad I quoted that post before you deleted it. You're a joke on this topic

 

[MPClinton22]

Deflate-Gate: An NFL Ball Boy's Perspective on Preparing Footballs - NBC News

"I recall them having a pressure gauge in the locker room, but most often they just squeezed the balls, turned them over in their hands a few times each, and inspected the laces. I don't recall them ever rejecting one of our balls," he said.

I know this is just one person's experience, but clearly the refs don't always use the pressure gauge and make sure these footballs are inflated to the exact right pressure. Everyone seems to be considering themselves experts on this situation, when in fact a lot of the evidence (or lack thereof) points to this being a non-issue.

 

[phork]

Deflated balls didn't stop the Pats from running down the Colts throats. None of the players are pointing fingers. Maybe they should have left the deflated balls in, the Colts seemed to be doing better at that point.

 

[gkIrish]

This is getting uglier and uglier. I'm nearly convinced they've been doing this for a long time.

Deflated: the Statistically Impossible Patriots Fumble Record | PJ Lifestyle

Sharp Football Analysis analysis looked at the rate of fumbles by the Patriots offense over the last decade. The analysis had a number of shocking conclusions. First, the Patriots fumble only at a rate of once every 187 offensive snaps. As Sharp’s puts it, this is literally off the charts. It is a statistical outlier right from a statistics textbook.

The odds of such a statistical distribution were calculated at one in 16,233. That’s a comma, not a decimal. Sixteen thousand two hundred and thirty three to one.

But it gets worse for Brady and the Patriots. Sharp Football Analysis was able to trace the emergence of this phenomena to a bright-line date: 2007. Starting in 2007, the Patriots suddenly began to hold onto the football at a statistical rate likely to occur 1 time in 16,233. A rational person might conclude this is the moment when someone on the Patriots cooked up the scheme to illegally deflate the ball:

When you consider that the Patriots play in cold, messy weather much of the season, having an advantage that visiting teams do not have creates even further separation from the rest of the NFL on game day in New England. The Pats have performed like a domed team in the worst of conditions.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I can't seem to find a quote, but I heard on the radio that Brady said he liked the balls to be 12.5 and then later said, he never really measured. Can someone verify that? If true, that's a hell of a Freudian slip, is it not?

I'm sorry, but I stand by my opinion that these QBs are perfectionists when it comes to their main equipment (the ball), they're going to make sure everyone of them is consistent with what they want and what they are used to practicing with. Why else would they put every ball through a break-in process? Unless Tom Brady and the Pats are always playing with balls that are below the minimum requirement, he should have realized that the balls used during this game had less air. Just like a golfer would notice a change in golf ball. These guys have spent thousands of hours with a ball in their hand...they know how they feel.

I'm not worried about Bellicheck. There are enough former QBs who've commented saying that rarely the coaches get involved with that sort of detail. It's usually the equipment managers and the QB, that's it.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

This is getting uglier and uglier. I'm nearly convinced they've been doing this for a long time.

Deflated: the Statistically Impossible Patriots Fumble Record | PJ Lifestyle

I can't seem to find a quote, but I heard on the radio that Brady said he liked the balls to be 12.5 and then later said, he never really measured. Can someone verify that? If true, that's a hell of a Freudian slip, is it not?

I'm sorry, but I stand by my opinion that these QBs are perfectionists when it comes to their main equipment (the ball), they're going to make sure everyone of them is consistent with what they want and what they are used to practicing with. Why else would they put every ball through a break-in process? Unless Tom Brady and the Pats are always playing with balls that are below the minimum requirement, he should have realized that the balls used during this game had less air. Just like a golfer would notice a change in golf ball. These guys have spent thousands of hours with a ball in their hand...they know how they feel.

I'm not worried about Bellicheck. There are enough former QBs who've commented saying that rarely the coaches get involved with that sort of detail. It's usually the equipment managers and the QB, that's it.

If this has been going on for a long time, then like I said in my post, it's possible Tom just doesn't know the difference between a ball that's in range and one that's below range. Everyone seems to know when a ball is aired up too much. But if he's used to deflated balls, then that would explain why the ones from the Colts game didn't feel different.

 

[woolybug25]

Freudian slip, is it not?

Unless Tom Brady and the Pats are always playing with balls

These guys have spent thousands of hours with a ball in their hand...they know how they feel.

That's all I read...

 

[BleedBlueGold]

That's all I read...

Not a slip

 

[gkIrish]

If this has been going on for a long time, then like I said in my post, it's possible Tom just doesn't know the difference between a ball that's in range and one that's below range. Everyone seems to know when a ball is aired up too much. But if he's used to deflated balls, then that would explain why the ones from the Colts game didn't feel different.

If they have been doing this for a long time it doesn't even matter what he felt or didn't feel. He clearly knew about it.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

If they have been doing this for a long time it doesn't even matter what he felt or didn't feel. He clearly knew about it.

I know, but my point is he's denying it and pleaded ignorance claiming they didn't feel different to him. If that's what he's used to...then of course it wouldn't feel different.

 

[Rhode Irish]

You can't isolate one factor as the cause for fumbling or not fumbling. I don't believe that deflating the ball has any impact - zero, none, 0.0. If the Patriots really do fumble less than other teams, I think it would more likely relate to personnel than the football. I'm pretty sure BenJarvis Green-Ellis had but one actual football skill, and that was not fumbling the football. Meanwhile, poor Stevan Ridley could not stay on the field because he couldn't hold onto the ball. Presumably they were using the same football, so that would lead me to believe that any lack of fumbling has nothing to do with the ball and everything to do with the guys carrying it. I didn't read to find out where they got the 16000:1 ratio, but I can tell you it is absurd and not believable on its face. I find the desperation of people to try to make this a serious competitive issue to be hilarious. I mean, the Patriots were caught breaking a rule. You have them dead to rights on it. They played with underinflated footballs. So give them their 25k fine and strongly worded letter and let's move on? Why embarrass yourselves pretending like the amount of air in the ball has any effect on the game?

Having said that, though, I do think this has probably been going on for a while. They probably prep the balls the same way every week and if it gets by the refs because they do a "squeeze check" then that is what they play with. But to try to make it into a bigger conspiracy or something that actually effects the game on the field is insane.

 

[gkIrish]

You can't isolate one factor as the cause for fumbling or not fumbling. I don't believe that deflating the ball has any impact - zero, none, 0.0. If the Patriots really do fumble less than other teams, I think it would more likely relate to personnel than the football. I'm pretty sure BenJarvis Green-Ellis had but one actual football skill, and that was not fumbling the football. Meanwhile, poor Stevan Ridley could not stay on the field because he couldn't hold onto the ball. Presumably they were using the same football, so that would lead me to believe that any lack of fumbling has nothing to do with the ball and everything to do with the guys carrying it. I didn't read to find out where they got the 16000:1 ratio, but I can tell you it is absurd and not believable on its face. I find the desperation of people to try to make this a serious competitive issue to be hilarious. I mean, the Patriots were caught breaking a rule. You have them dead to rights on it. They played with underinflated footballs. So give them their 25k fine and strongly worded letter and let's move on? Why embarrass yourselves pretending like the amount of air in the ball has any effect on the game?

Having said that, though, I do think this has probably been going on for a while. They probably prep the balls the same way every week and if it gets by the refs because they do a "squeeze check" then that is what they play with. But to try to making it into a bigger conspiracy or something that actually effects the game on the field is insane.

You say you think it's been going on for a while. Let's take the last 2 seasons. By my count, the Patriots won 8 different games by 3 points or less, including a few 1 pt. games. Do you honestly believe that deflating footballs by 2 pounds would not have changed the result in any of those games? There wouldn't have been one extra fumble, a couple bad passes on 3rd down, etc..?

If you say no, that's just intellectually dishonest and we have nothing further to discuss.

 

[gkIrish]

Rhode: If deflating balls does not help, WHY WOULD THE PATRIOTS RISK DOING IT????

 

[Irish#1]

Are you serious? The refs get paid a handsome salary so there's no way they missed this? Refs get paid a handsome salary and they miss penalties all the time. Refs get paid a handsome salary and yet instant replay overturns calls. Roger Goodell gets paid a handsome salary and botched the Ray Rice situation. Tom Brady gets paid a handsome salary yet he sometimes throws interceptions.

What the hell does that have to do with it?

Of course I'm serious, but you can't compare missing penalties to going through a pregame checklist. My point about salaries is that there are thousands of guys who would love to have that job, including the ones that already have it. Why would you take a chance of losing your job by skipping something that is a requirement?

 

[Rhode Irish]

Rhode: If deflating balls does not help, WHY WOULD THE PATRIOTS RISK DOING IT????

It's just a comfort thing. The other team doesn't touch the ball, so everyone should be able to have it however they want it IMO. I honestly don't understand the thought process behind even having a rule for minimum and maximum air amounts. Seems like needless over regulation. But I don't think the ball being more or less inflated is inherently advantageous or disadvantageous. It's just a matter of preference.

 

[Irish#1]

If they have been doing this for a long time it doesn't even matter what he felt or didn't feel. He clearly knew about it.

If they've been doing it for 7 years they probably forgot about it and figured it was the norm. lol

 

[gkIrish]

It's just a comfort thing. The other team doesn't touch the ball, so everyone should be able to have it however they want it IMO. I honestly don't understand the thought process behind even having a rule for minimum and maximum air amounts. Seems like needless over regulation. But I don't think the ball being more or less inflated is inherently advantageous or disadvantageous. It's just a matter of preference.

Have you ever played football? Have you ever held a nerf ball? Have you ever tried to palm a basketball? Serious questions....

 

[Rhode Irish]

You say you think it's been going on for a while. Let's take the last 2 seasons. By my count, the Patriots won 8 different games by 3 points or less, including a few 1 pt. games. Do you honestly believe that deflating footballs by 2 pounds would not have changed the result in any of those games? There wouldn't have been one extra fumble, a couple bad passes on 3rd down, etc..?

If you say no, that's just intellectually dishonest and we have nothing further to discuss.

You can call it what you want, but I honestly believe there is absolutely zero impact. And in fact, I think it is intellectually dishonest for people who have played the game to claim otherwise. I think it is shameful and petty opportunism to try to explain away personal failure and frustration related to the Patriots.

 

[Irish#1]

It's just a comfort thing. The other team doesn't touch the ball, so everyone should be able to have it however they want it IMO. I honestly don't understand the thought process behind even having a rule for minimum and maximum air amounts. Seems like needless over regulation. But I don't think the ball being more or less inflated is inherently advantageous or disadvantageous. It's just a matter of preference.

I may be wrong, but I bet the rule was put into place years ago when the home team supplied the balls for the game rather than having each team bring their own.

In college they've been bringing their own as long as I remember because different conferences would use different balls.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Have you ever played football? Have you ever held a nerf ball? Have you ever tried to palm a basketball? Serious questions....

Yes, but comparing a football with 10.5 PSI to a nerf ball is stupid. I can both palm and dunk a basketball. Fully inflated or not. In basketball the air in the ball obviously does matter, but there is no dribbling or rims in football.

 

[gkIrish]

You can call it what you want, but I honestly believe there is absolutely zero impact. And in fact, I think it is intellectually dishonest for people who have played the game to claim otherwise. I think it is shameful and petty opportunism to try to explain away personal failure and frustration related to the Patriots.

This post summarizes why I hate Boston sports fans.

1. Lack of substantive knowledge
2. Disbelief that a contrary opinion is credible and/or logical
3. Reminder that their teams are [in their opinion] better than yours

 

[phork]

This is getting uglier and uglier. I'm nearly convinced they've been doing this for a long time.

Deflated: the Statistically Impossible Patriots Fumble Record | PJ Lifestyle

This is getting ridiculously ridiculouslyier. (PSST there are other people who deflate balls too) .

Am I failing to see the issue here? Fine them according to the rule book, take away a draft pick and lets move on.

 

[Rhode Irish]

This post summarizes why I hate Boston sports fans.

1. Lack of substantive knowledge
2. Disbelief that a contrary opinion is credible and/or logical
3. Reminder that their teams are [in their opinion] better than yours

I have substantive knowledge, depending on how you want to define that, and I think lots of opinions that differ from mine can be valid. But in this case I think there is a runaway train of mob idiocy that is impossible to view as legitimate. I know people hate Boston fans (and teams, by extension), and that is exactly why this is even a thing. On the merits it is a big giant nothing.

It seems like you have equal disdain for a contrary opinion. The difference between us is that you're with the mob and I am right.

 

[wizards8507]

Reminder that their teams are [in their opinion] better than yours

 

[gkIrish]

I have substantive knowledge, depending on how you want to define that, and I think lots of opinions that differ from mine can be valid. But in this case I think there is a runaway train of mob idiocy that is impossible to view as legitimate. I know people hate Boston fans (and teams, by extension), and that is exactly why this is even a thing. On the merits it is a big giant nothing.

It seems like you have equal disdain for a contrary opinion. The difference between us is that you're with the mob and I am right.

Me: Red
You: Blue

 

[Rhode Irish]

Exactly. I rest my case. Look at that giant red mob!

 

[gkIrish]

My 4 (NY) teams have won more championships than your four teams, including during our lifetimes. So spare me.