New Rules Proposed That Could Effect Opponents

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johnnykillz

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Proposed rule changes may give college football an NFL look - ESPN

I was reading this article on ESPN, when I noticed some of the less obvious rule changes within the article.

Safety is part of the reason for other changes, though.

Players lined up within seven yards of the center on scrimmage plays are still permitted to block below the waist anywhere on the field, but the committee is recommending tighter restrictions on other players.

Receivers or running backs lined up outside the tackle box will be allowed to block below the waist only if they are blocking straight ahead or toward the nearest sideline. If they go inside and block toward the play, it would be a penalty.

"This is a significant change because now the default philosophy is that blocking below the waist is illegal except under these circumstances," Redding said. "Before, the philosophy was that blocking below the waist was legal, but there was an extensive list of times when you couldn't do it."

I thought this would change things quite a bit, among the other rule changes...

These changes could effect us as well. I suppose the rule won't effect Navy as much as I had thought, due to the distance between the center and where their players line up.

Crack-backs always had to be above the waist, I thought...?
 
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rtrn2glory

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The cut block should be totally illegal outside of the tackle box at the l.o.s. Kids continue to get hurt by this dirty play and saying that they do it because of inferior size is not a good enough excuse.

I did like the possible change of putting the umpire behind the rb...Can't stand when they get into a defenders way. Either move them or do away with them.
 
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johnnykillz

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I still think this will change the way Navy's blocking scheme works, or more flags will be thrown, as they block way too low from EVERYWHERE on the field.
 

tko

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they serve our country, so don't expect refs to flag them.
 

phgreek

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they serve our country, so don't expect refs to flag them.

...agree. That program pushes the limits of my patience...but I get the sentiment.

If you guys noticed how Ian actually got hurt...you'd know why I am running out of patince and good will with these guys. Tackle tried to engage our OLB, who shucked him, and then the guy just wildly launched himself into the pile where Ian was enaged with TWO blockers...no flag....complete BS. Did he intend to hurt Ian...no...but its still a damned penalty, and he was out of control, and needed to be reminded not to play like that.

I locked horns with a guy who was a long time coach on this very subject...his tough guy point was "football is a tough sport, quit whining", and his logical point was "no one cries when defenders dive at the ball cariers legs"

...my response to that boneheaded logic is simple...no one teaches "dive at his legs" as a technique for tackling, and in fact, real coaches punish players for lowering their head, or having poor form or pursuit angles...

...and this guy tells me I don't know football...K, probably not as well as he does, but I think he's been takling people with his head too long...

Some of these schools use the cut as the staple block, and they teach it...they teach how to get away with it when it should be illegal...etc, etc. My contention is simple, the cut is accepted when used sparingly...but there is an unspoken rule...when you use it every damned play, what you are saying is, you have no regard for my team, and the careers of my individual players...my hell, if you can flag a horsecollar tackle...how in F&*^ can a cut still be legal...compare the injuries caused by horsecollars to cuts...and which ones result in career ending injuries more often...about time somebody get serious about cuts.
 

irishtrain

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Navy would be lost if this is enforced to the max. Its their lifeblood on offense. People playing against them arent afraid per say but its understood its coming and it changes your aggression to the ball. Its like giving a speech while swatting mosquitos-distraction that screws up the process. I'd wear extra knee pads and would use my knees as a weapon.
 

phgreek

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Navy would be lost if this is enforced to the max. Its their lifeblood on offense. People playing against them arent afraid per say but its understood its coming and it changes your aggression to the ball. Its like giving a speech while swatting mosquitos-distraction that screws up the process. I'd wear extra knee pads and would use my knees as a weapon.

I love that analogy...its very accurate...

...and yea, knees and forearms driving helmets into the turf are a deterrent for sure... I can remeber putting the boot to a couple rib cages in my day...glad I'm small and slow and never had to play in front of the media...hehehe

But I always got a couple chuckles from my teamamtes on film day..and usually stadium stairs from my coaches...always worth it though...
 

NDinMich

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Interesting stuff. Seems to me that this rule has gotten lost in the shuffle with the celebration penalty (which I don't have a problem with, I know I'm in the minority on that one). Hope this rule doesn't get enforced in the first 2 games and then goes away, ala the NHL.
 

Old Man Mike

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There's a rule around that outlaws helmets to the head, and facemasks grabbing, and one in the pros that outlaws any hitting the QB in the head. How about one which penalizes hits to the front or the side of the knee?? I mean just define it like that. I suppose that this is impractical for some reason, but I'm just tossing it out there. It seems it's the knees that we're worried about. In Ian's case it would have been harder to see, but most of Navy's stuff is perpetrated in the open in space and would be pretty easy to spot.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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I still remember the Ohio St.- Miami game when Willis McGahee got his knee blown out. To this day I will not watch a replay.
 

WabashFalcon

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As the fat former college O-Lineman here, I just want to say that the cut block should be totally fair game. I can't outrun a DB or a Linebacker. How the hell am I supposed to block a guy lined up on a shade on the Center? How the hell am I supposed to make sure an LB or Safety goes down?

Hell, in a pile or duing the play, there is so much more cheap crap that goes on that is SO much worse than cut blocks. I have had my eyes attempted to be gouged. I have had my nuts and penis grabbed, ripped, punched, etc.. I have had my knees twisted, arms wrenched, and have been bit while going for a fumble. Bit. Blood. Teeth marks.

I like the cut. I really don't want to see it go away.
 

Anchorman

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Two thoughts as a fan of both Navy and ND.

1. Opposing teams give the cut blocks way too much credit. They happen, but Navy also kicks the crap out of teams conventionally. It wasn't cut blocks that had Te'o out of position, or that caused Carlo to quit on the play. As was noted during navy week, the whole mental toughness/Longo conditioning is great and all, but the edge in those categories is going Navy's way. See the goal line stand.

2. I love people talking about player's safety. How about how we all cheer when Robert Hughes hits a whole and leads with his head, and then we wonder why they all die early and have significant mental incapacities later on in life? What do you think is more damaging to Louis Nix's health, a cut block or weighing 350 pounds? While we're at it, how bout a weight limit?

A 1994 study of 7,000 former players by the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health found linemen had a 52 percent greater risk of dying from heart disease than the general population. While U.S. life expectancy is 77.6 years, recent studies suggest the average for NFL players is 55, 52 for linemen.
Sports: A huge problem


1994 study is well before the current size of lineman, as would be life expectancy studies.


Maybe a blown knee that keeps someone out of football is the best thing for them.
 
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Old Man Mike

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To the anchorman: I can buy into at least some of what you say, but two things from my enfeebled brain:

1]. Issues must be divided from one another in discussion or nothing can be focussed upon and nothing accomplished. Cut blocks are an issue. Hitting with one's head is another. Hitting someone in the head is a third. Weighing 350 pounds is a fourth. Any of these are legitimate and largely separate discussions. Make a thread about any of them, or better write the NCAA. This thread was about blocking and knee injuries.

2]. On a "philosophical" note: there has always been a moral and legal distinction made [especially in matters of burden-of-risk] between a risk involuntarily inflicted upon a person, and a risk which the person takes upon themselves [even if judged by some of us to be foolish]. Examples of this would be an exposure to a pollutant vs getting in your car and driving....or, being cut-blocked into the hospital vs eating unhealthily to play nose tackle.

Perhaps I am just jabbering meaninglessly, but I had to address ethics regularly in my classrooms and smearing things together was a sure blockage of progress. But, what-the-heck, this is just IE so I should shut up I suppose---why be serious??
 

phgreek

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To the anchorman: I can buy into at least some of what you say, but two things from my enfeebled brain:

1]. Issues must be divided from one another in discussion or nothing can be focussed upon and nothing accomplished. Cut blocks are an issue. Hitting with one's head is another. Hitting someone in the head is a third. Weighing 350 pounds is a fourth. Any of these are legitimate and largely separate discussions. Make a thread about any of them, or better write the NCAA. This thread was about blocking and knee injuries.

2]. On a "philosophical" note: there has always been a moral and legal distinction made [especially in matters of burden-of-risk] between a risk involuntarily inflicted upon a person, and a risk which the person takes upon themselves [even if judged by some of us to be foolish]. Examples of this would be an exposure to a pollutant vs getting in your car and driving....or, being cut-blocked into the hospital vs eating unhealthily to play nose tackle.

Perhaps I am just jabbering meaninglessly, but I had to address ethics regularly in my classrooms and smearing things together was a sure blockage of progress. But, what-the-heck, this is just IE so I should shut up I suppose---why be serious??


no...jabbering is what I was doing in thinking about a response...what you wrote covers what I wanted to communicate...only better. Especially the distinction between voluntary and involuntary...dead on OMM.
 

phgreek

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As the fat former college O-Lineman here, I just want to say that the cut block should be totally fair game. I can't outrun a DB or a Linebacker. How the hell am I supposed to block a guy lined up on a shade on the Center? How the hell am I supposed to make sure an LB or Safety goes down?

Hell, in a pile or duing the play, there is so much more cheap crap that goes on that is SO much worse than cut blocks. I have had my eyes attempted to be gouged. I have had my nuts and penis grabbed, ripped, punched, etc.. I have had my knees twisted, arms wrenched, and have been bit while going for a fumble. Bit. Blood. Teeth marks.

I like the cut. I really don't want to see it go away.

I get what you are saying...for every decision like this, somebody has to lose...and that part sucks...because you probably did it sparingly, and in a way both sides kinda accepted...the problem I see is when someone makes that their signature technique...its just showing no regard for your opponent...the problem is, how do you say when its too much....so I think you gotta kill it all.

and BTW, I know you are exagerating some...you guys are ALOT quicker than you want anyone to know...
 

BGIF

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To the anchorman: I can buy into at least some of what you say, but two things from my enfeebled brain:

1]. Issues must be divided from one another in discussion or nothing can be focussed upon and nothing accomplished. Cut blocks are an issue. Hitting with one's head is another. Hitting someone in the head is a third. Weighing 350 pounds is a fourth. Any of these are legitimate and largely separate discussions. Make a thread about any of them, or better write the NCAA. This thread was about blocking and knee injuries.

Actually the thread waisn't about blocking and knee injuries but about possible rule changes to college football. "New Rules Proposed That Could Effect Opponents". Various people took it in different directions including one that introduced, "helmets to the head, and facemasks grabbing, and one in the pros that outlaws any hitting the QB in the head. None of which deal with blocking nor knees.



2]. On a "philosophical" note: there has always been a moral and legal distinction made [especially in matters of burden-of-risk] between a risk involuntarily inflicted upon a person, and a risk which the person takes upon themselves [even if judged by some of us to be foolish]. Examples of this would be an exposure to a pollutant vs getting in your car and driving....or, being cut-blocked into the hospital vs eating unhealthily to play nose tackle.

May be my engineer's training but I don't grasp the ethical difference of involuntary inflicted risk/risk a person takes themselves as the examples cited. Concussions are an inherent part of football. Players give them and receive them. In giving one they may also receive one. In '88 Southern Cal QB Rodney Peete threw a pass that late in the first half that was intecepted by CB Stan Smagala. As Stams raced down the sideline heading toward the endzone for a tie breaking TD, Peete made the decision to use his 195 pounds to try and tackle the smaller, 180 pound, cornerback thus "voluntarily" placing himself in the role of defender, the inflicter. DE Franks Stams now on the Offensive, threw all of his 240 pounds into a block against the potential tackler, the smaller Peete. Peete never saw him coming. Blindsided - "involuntarily". Never saw him coming. BAM! The Block Heard Round The World! A DECLEATER! Peete didn't get up. With a damaged shoulder he was done.

22 years later, QB's still get hurt trying to make tackles. It's part of the game. And so are cut blocks.

Perhaps I am just jabbering meaninglessly, but I had to address ethics regularly in my classrooms and smearing things together was a sure blockage of progress. But, what-the-heck, this is just IE so I should shut up I suppose---why be serious??


I don't see Anchor's "smearing things together" any more than you introducing helmets, heads, and NFL rules into the thread. I find his comments though provoking particularly as Wenger waits an NCAA ruling on whether he's eligible to get yet another concussion. See Bartley Webb, Luke Schmidt, and a long list of other ND athletes with career ending injuries for relevancy.

As long as we're discussing ethics now (germaine or not) how about addressing a 170 pound Everett Golson facing opponents that twice have put the 230 pound Dayne Crist into surgery and rehab. Golson did well against DLs that outweighed him by as much as 100 pounds in HS. Should Golson ethically be allowed to play against DLs weighing as much as 200 pounds more than he does and possessing two or three times his strength? I have visions of Corey Haim's Lucas under a pile up.

Or perhaps how a 175 pound Toma is supposed to block a 250 pound ILB like Te'o, say Southern Cal's Chris Gallipo or Devon Kennard. A Toma sized guy is not going to move mcuh less stop a 250 pound backer standing up but throwing a cut block, even a missed one, could spring a ball carrier for a big gain. If nothing else that backer has to take his eyes off the ball carrier for a second or so to deal with the attacking flea.

Cut blocks may increase knee injuries but contrary to the objections of some raised in this thread they are not dirty. They're legal. As legal as Stam's hit on Peete which knocked the QB of the #2 team in the nation in 1988 out of the second half of the game with a shoulder injury.
 

phgreek

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Man I just scrolled up before commit, and geez...too long, another reason to say I'm completely irrational on this subject...sorry BGIF...the cliffs notes version is...well I'm irrational and I disagree....read on if you like...


Cut blocks may increase knee injuries but contrary to the objections of some raised in this thread they are not dirty. They're legal.

...lots of things used to be "legal", but for lack of data from which to make a judgement. I think there is enough of a body of data out there, if only coaches' anecdotal expereinces to tell me this is simply not a part of football that needs to stay. A recent example of where we look at the data, and take appropriate measures...No more horsecollar tackles. Apparently because folks saw enough injuries directly resultant from it they decided it had no place...the crazy thing about this is, who actually ever tried to horsecollar someone...how do you even avoid doing it? Its not like there is a drill to teach the horsecollar...it happens because as a defender you screwed up, and you are grabbing on to whatever you can and using your momentum to drag the guy down...Also, I never recall seeing somebody unable to leave the field under their own power due to being horsecollar tackled...(but having been around here long enough, I expect you'll tell me or even have a video) .

So yea, the cut is legal right now...so its not dirty on its face...but it is cheap. Folks may not make a distinction between cheap and dirty...I do...one has mallice or is done knowing the act is illegal, the other is a shortcut that is so focused on results, it lacks regard for anything else (see Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac for non-football examples...just to mix it up a little). I put Navy's reliance upon the Cut clearly in the "Cheap" category. Thats not on the kids so much as it is on the coaching staff.

Now before anyone gets all huffy...indeed I saw Navy smack our guys in the mouth on some "traditional" blocks (can't say clean blocks, because that infers the cut is dirty)...not saying the cut necessarily won or lost the game last year...but I am saying Ian was injured, no question, because of a cut. I am saying the volume of cuts used by Navy says something about their regard for other teams and other atheletes because they know the rate of injury about as well as anyone.

As legal as Stam's hit on Peete which knocked the QB of the #2 team in the nation in 1988 out of the second half of the game with a shoulder injury.

Maybe I missed the point in here...

Indeed there is some risks inherent in the game, it gets worse when you are small, but accepting those risks is different from rule makers assessing the risk of a particular technique, and banning it...IMHO

As well, it sounds like you are saying any injury due to a cut block is the same as any other football injury sustained due to circumstances in the game...kinda like its football, stuff happens, and the cut is part of it. Maybe, and I'd always accepted the cut when used sparingly/responsibly...well unless someone tried to cut me. Over the years I have admittedly become less of a fan of it. I don't like the cut period...and when you use it like Navy, it makes me nuts...why...there are a couple of incidious things that happen when you cut Navy style that increases the risks of injury to being simply crazy. 1) The refs get tired of looking at it, and don't call it so close as the game goes on, and the practitioners know it, and they aren't so "careful"...see Ian's injury. 2) The other thing that happens is, pratitioners lose sight of the relationship between risk of injury as relates to the sheer volume of cut blocks...when is that number high enough where you are showing disregard for your opponent? Whatever that number is, I am comfortable Navy isn't toeing any lines, they don't see a line...what effing line?

Anyway, to me this Stams comparison breaks down because you are comparing this contemplated technique to a couple of snap judgements on the field that led to a monumental collision...one is contemplated by coaches, knowing full well the potential outcomes, the other "happens" because of the nature of football players. Now it would be totally disingenuous of me to say Stams didn't dream of such a hit for Years before and after it happened...but Holtz and Alvarez didn't teach him a technique, that while very effective, ends in the opponent's QB separating his shoulder probably once every other game...(even then, 50% chance he isn't affected...unless of course we always taught them to drive the "throwing" shoulder into the ground...too bad we don't have a "running" knee/ankle...kinda need both of them, and its 100% chance you are done if you screw just one of them up).
 

NeuteredDoomer

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Well, it's football. Biggest problem I had was when a defender blatantly pulled my facemask as I broke out. I got so pissed at the split second that I swung and broke his arm while releasing my neck and vulnerability.

Otherwise, I thought low clean hits were part of the game.
 
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Old Man Mike

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...I need to remember that like in all groups there are a lot of buried minefields out there. Well, OK and peace---I'll let it go. Thanks as usual to Neutered for his brilliant attempt to diffuse the pressure inside the balloon. "Making IE a joyful place, one post at a time."
 

rtrn2glory

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I despise the cut block and always will...I played offensive line and got around ok without having to cut anybody downfield, now cutting at the line of scrimmage where you don't have a head start to drill your helmet into a knee...I'm ok with that, that's even legal in some high schools, but cutting outside of the box and the line of scrimmage should be outlawed immediately.
 

phork

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Ban all contact in football for the safety of the free world. These cretins can only do no good once out of football life with their violent tendencies.
 

phgreek

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Ban all contact in football for the safety of the free world. These cretins can only do no good once out of football life with their violent tendencies.

...no, they should play in the stay puff marshmellow suits...:)

point taken
 
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NeuteredDoomer

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I despise the cut block and always will...I played offensive line and got around ok without having to cut anybody downfield, now cutting at the line of scrimmage where you don't have a head start to drill your helmet into a knee...I'm ok with that, that's even legal in some high schools, but cutting outside of the box and the line of scrimmage should be outlawed immediately.

Really, the only "cut block" that bugs the hell out of me the most is when, say a noseguard and center are hooked up and standing each other up, and the O guard dives right at the noseguard's knee. Well, that and cheap shots like the one the Navy dude pulled a couple of years ago 40 yards away from the ball. Someone posted that video here on another thread.

As a Sam linebacker in a 3-4/5-2 D, we were taught total field awareness and how to take on chop blocks. I still remember a team we played whose entire line came head on or angle blocked, and blocked low, and quite beautifully and athletically so. They couldn't get to my knees though because as I have said, we were taught how to confront it, with total field awareness. Seems to me, Calabrese gets caught up in traffic a bit much. I was also kind of confused by Crist's seeming lack of total field awareness and his inability to escape a rush coming right at him that it seemed he could have easily avoided.

Early training as a linebacker actually helped me as an option and passing QB later in my silly career. Only two cheap shots I took (or almost took) were the aforementioned yanking of my facemask as I was about to break a 60 yard run, only to be stopped after 15 while I broke the arm of the idiot who tried to snap my neck, and another situation many years later when I was QB.

We had a perfectly called deep post to the Z. I tossed it and it would have been a sure 6, but dummy Z decided to head for the corner, because as he told me, he thought he had a better chance to beat the safety, and this was after the friggen ball was already in the air.. Idiot. Did idiot think ball would change direction?.... But I digress...Anyway, the safety sat there and intercepted the pass. As I headed out to tackle the guy, full of **** and anger at the Z, a D lineman tried to blindside me. Total field awareness and the stench of his breath alerted me quickly as he tried to clip me from behind. I quickly horse-collared him from just under his facemask and popped him to the ground with a full fist to the back of his neck. It was fun to see him writhing in pain. I was quickly removed from the game, but at least I tackled the offending interceptor as well. Knocked the **** out of him too as a matter of fact. I was so pissed at the Z.

I feel better now. Thank you for listening.
 

dshans

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No problemo, Kneutered, listening is part of my skill set. Just don't break my arm or drag me down with a horse collar tackle if my eyes glaze and I nod off.
 

NeuteredDoomer

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Well, just don't intercept my pass, or be that azzhole Z who changes routes while ball is in the air.

I feel better now. I think I will eat a cookie. Thank you Boss.
 

dshans

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Well, just don't intercept my pass, or be that azzhole Z who changes routes while ball is in the air.

I feel better now. I think I will eat a cookie. Thank you Boss.

I think that's a stone cold guarantee. I was a short, skinny azz swimmer. Much to my mother's relief I was never big enough to play organized football at any level.

Hmmm, I'm thinking chocolate pudding or cheese cake.
 

Old Man Mike

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Thanks a lot guys; I'm on a diet---vegetables for me....but surely one little.....
 

rtrn2glory

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I respect everybody's opinions on this matter, but mine will not change. Blocking be low the waist away from the l.o.s should be illegal and hopefully that will be the case sooner rather than later.
 
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