ND Oversold on Kelly?

[ACamp1900]

What site are you using? I used 247.

Rivals... and again, you can't look just at that... take Stanford over the past four years, average that out, then compare... I'll bet we are much higher.

I thin ND needs to take the next step in recruiting and get more Jaylon Smith/Manti level players... BUT they have the current in flow of players to make it happen... at least I'm willing to bet they do when you get the full picture. Very few programs recruit consistently better than ND

 

[Irish Insanity]

Then you're part of the problem.

Not sure what problem your referring to. 10-3 or better yearly shouldn't be to high. Thats 75% of your season and a bowl win. I'd rather expect that type of season yearly and understand when we have a mediocre season like this year (for understandable reasons), as opposed to accept mediocrity and be happy when we are occasionally above it.

 

[IrishLion]

Not sure what problem your referring to. 10-3 or better yearly shouldn't be to high. Thats 75% of your season and a bowl win. I'd rather expect that type of season yearly and understand when we have a mediocre season like this year (for understandable reasons), as opposed to accept mediocrity and be happy when we are occasionally above it.

To be fair, 10-3 this season is still in play (albeit with slim chances). You beat BYU and Stanford and you finish 9-3. Win a bowl game and you finish 10-3.

That would be fantastic, but it doesn't change the fact that many people are already calling for coaches to be fired and calling the season a disappointment.

 

[kmoose]

I'd rather expect that type of season yearly and understand when we have a mediocre season like this year (for understandable reasons), as opposed to accept mediocrity and be happy when we are occasionally above it.

What you'd rather matters the square root of fvck all to the team's performance on the field. This is not the 50s, 60s, or even the 70s. ND is NOT going to average 10 wins over a decade. It's just not going to happen. There are too many other schools that get on TV every week, and there are only 85 scholarships to give out. You can wish in one hand and crap in the other, and see which one fills up first.

Seriously, you can try to demand 10 win seasons as normal, but don't expect too many others to buy into it. It's simply no longer realistic.

 

[IrishLion]

What you'd rather matters the square root of fvck all to the team's performance on the field. This is not the 50s, 60s, or even the 70s. ND is NOT going to average 10 wins over a decade. It's just not going to happen. There are too many other schools that get on TV every week, and there are only 85 scholarships to give out. You can wish in one hand and crap in the other, and see which one fills up first.

Seriously, you can try to demand 10 win seasons as normal, but don't expect too many others to buy into it. It's simply no longer realistic.

The problem isn't the expecting ten wins... ND could lose it's three toughest games every season, win a ****** bowl, and finish in the top 25 with ten wins.

But that's not what people want. They would eventually get sick of that too.

They want consistent BCS bowl/Tournament/Natty appearences, and it's just not realistic to expect that every season.

 

[kmoose]

The problem isn't the expecting ten wins... ND could lose it's three toughest games every season, win a ****** bowl, and finish in the top 25 with ten wins.

But that's not what people want. They would eventually get sick of that too.

They want consistent BCS bowl/Tournament/Natty appearences, and it's just not realistic to expect that every season.

I was just responding to the previous post about 10 win seasons. But I agree with your thoughts here. Unrealistic expectations are the major problem with the ND football program, right now.

 

[Irish Insanity]

To be fair, 10-3 this season is still in play (albeit with slim chances). You beat BYU and Stanford and you finish 9-3. Win a bowl game and you finish 10-3.

That would be fantastic, but it doesn't change the fact that many people are already calling for coaches to be fired and calling the season a disappointment.

I agree, but I was talking about yearly. That means next year when the year starts I'll expect 10. And the year after. Also, as I stated, some years when things happen (like injuries and our QB situation this year) I will understand.

What you'd rather matters the square root of fvck all to the team's performance on the field. This is not the 50s, 60s, or even the 70s. ND is NOT going to average 10 wins over a decade. It's just not going to happen. There are too many other schools that get on TV every week, and there are only 85 scholarships to give out. You can wish in one hand and crap in the other, and see which one fills up first.

Seriously, you can try to demand 10 win seasons as normal, but don't expect too many others to buy into it. It's simply no longer realistic.

I never said a word about us averaging 10 wins over a decade. I have no desire to **** in my hand either. I didn't demand anything, I said I expect 10 wins every year, and without that I am disappointed. I am not selling anything for anyone else to buy.

 

[JughedJones]

Sorry about the grammar but what not try & make a point rather then talk trash to whoever dont agree with you?

 

[Irish Insanity]

I was just responding to the previous post about 10 win seasons. But I agree with your thoughts here. Unrealistic expectations are the major problem with the ND football program, right now.

There are a long list of reasons we lost games this year that have nothing to do with others expectations. So I doubt our expectation are any of the problem with the football program. The wide gap between the fan base where half accept mediocrity and half expect perfection is the problem with the fan base.

 

[scUM Hater]

Just a reminder, ND was in the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP last year. Yes, outplayed, but was there. IF Golsen would be the QB this year we would be undefeated. I know we have both Rees haters and lovers here, but he is the best QB on the roster now. With the offense ND is running, it is not suited for Rees. So many times this year, if Rees would only run. Even if it was for a 2 yard gain, it would help open the field greatly. Rees has been sacked less than once a game. Why? Because the defense keeps dropping back in coverage and using a 3 or 4 man rush. There has been way too many times were he could walk for a first down. Don't even get me started on our soft o-line. Sure they can block against small d-lineman of Navy and Air Force, but damn, these 4/5* o-lineman just seem to play soft. Just my opinion.

 

[IrishLion]

I was just responding to the previous post about 10 win seasons. But I agree with your thoughts here. Unrealistic expectations are the major problem with the ND football program, right now.

I was trying to agree with your basic premise, though I came late to the party.

The worst part of the situation is that it *shouldn't* be unrealistic to expect ten wins every season, considering the various advantages ND provides... but that's just how college football is these days, and people don't realize that.

Even if ND was on a completely level playing field with everyone else, it would be unrealistic to expect the BCS every season because injuries happen (like this year), program-changers leave (like Manti this year) and opponents turn in the occassional perfect performance (like Gardner and scUM this year).

Not only does it take excellent coaching and consistently good recruiting to sustain success, it takes good fortune and luck as well... most of the recent Natty winners had their share of luck, so it irritates me when people brush off ND's 12-0 last year as a fluke.

The only model of "consistency" that resembles what many ND fans truly want is Bama... and Bama is a far outlier of what the norm is.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Just a reminder, ND was in the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP last year. Yes, outplayed, but was there. IF Golsen would be the QB this year we would be undefeated. I know we have both Rees haters and lovers here, but he is the best QB on the roster now. With the offense ND is running, it is not suited for Rees. So many times this year, if Rees would only run. Even if it was for a 2 yard gain, it would help open the field greatly. Rees has been sacked less than once a game. Why? Because the defense keeps dropping back in coverage and using a 3 or 4 man rush. There has been way too many times were he could walk for a first down. Don't even get me started on our soft o-line. Sure they can block against small d-lineman of Navy and Air Force, but damn, these 4/5* o-lineman just seem to play soft. Just my opinion.

GOLSON no e. Lol

I agree. Thats why I don't see it as unrealistic to expect 10 wins.

 

[kmoose]

BK went to the BCS with CINCINNATI in year 3, so there must be something we're missing about what his issue is HERE.

10+ hours later, and I am still trying to understand what the point of the above. Cincinnati went to the BCS in year 3. So did ND go to a BCS bowl in Kelly's 3rd year. So what is "his issue" here? He got ND to a BCS bowl game in the same amount of time as he got Cincinnati there, so I don't get why there is supposed to be some kind of issue? What am I missing here?

 

[IrishLion]

10+ hours later, and I am still trying to understand what the point of the above. Cincinnati went to the BCS in year 3. So did ND go to a BCS bowl in Kelly's 3rd year. So what is "his issue" here? He got ND to a BCS bowl game in the same amount of time as he got Cincinnati there, so I don't get why there is supposed to be some kind of issue? What am I missing here?

Again I'm agreeing with your premise lol, but I'm gonna nitpick and point out that UC actually went to the BCS in year two under Kelly vs. Virginia Tech.

But the post you are referencing is irrelevant, based on situation and the schedule UC faced in those seasons to get there.

 

[JughedJones]

I hate to be the "next year is gonna be different guy," but here goes.

We're going to be ****ing lights out next year.

With Golson back, along with a senior Tuitt. Yes, I would bet all of my remaining Vbucks that Tuitt comes back.

DD being even more experienced and athletic, Hercules being even more studly than he already is, Folston and Bryant anchoring the back field... I think we're going to see a complete ND squad.

For anyone thinking that BK isn't the answer, next year will tell us everything we need to know. Barring injuries, it will be exactly the team he wanted when he got here. I think we should save our judgement tilll then.

I said it when BK got the job and I still believe it. If he can't bring us where we want to go, no one can.

 

[kmoose]

Again I'm agreeing with your premise lol, but I'm gonna nitpick and point out that UC actually went to the BCS in year two under Kelly vs. Virginia Tech.

But the post you are referencing is irrelevant, based on situation and the schedule UC faced in those seasons to get there.

UC also got an automatic bid, based on winning the Big East. But I was just trying to understand what point wizards was trying to make.

 

[anarin]

Just a reminder, ND was in the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP last year. Yes, outplayed, but was there. IF Golsen would be the QB this year we would be undefeated. I know we have both Rees haters and lovers here, but he is the best QB on the roster now. With the offense ND is running, it is not suited for Rees. So many times this year, if Rees would only run. Even if it was for a 2 yard gain, it would help open the field greatly. Rees has been sacked less than once a game. Why? Because the defense keeps dropping back in coverage and using a 3 or 4 man rush. There has been way too many times were he could walk for a first down. Don't even get me started on our soft o-line. Sure they can block against small d-lineman of Navy and Air Force, but damn, these 4/5* o-lineman just seem to play soft. Just my opinion.

I'd agree with this statement.

(even if you spelled his name wrong)

 

[GATTACA!]

I'd agree with this statement.

(even if you spelled his name wrong)

(And used the wrong auxiliary verb)

 

[phork]

Just a reminder, ND was in the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP last year. Yes, outplayed, but was there. IF Golsen would be the QB this year we would be undefeated. I know we have both Rees haters and lovers here, but he is the best QB on the roster now. With the offense ND is running, it is not suited for Rees. So many times this year, if Rees would only run. Even if it was for a 2 yard gain, it would help open the field greatly. Rees has been sacked less than once a game. Why? Because the defense keeps dropping back in coverage and using a 3 or 4 man rush. There has been way too many times were he could walk for a first down. Don't even get me started on our soft o-line. Sure they can block against small d-lineman of Navy and Air Force, but damn, these 4/5* o-lineman just seem to play soft. Just my opinion.

ND would not be undefeated this year. Our defense, the one that got ND to the NC game, took a giant step back.

 

[Redbar]

Just a reminder, ND was in the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP last year. Yes, outplayed, but was there. IF Golsen would be the QB this year we would be undefeated. I know we have both Rees haters and lovers here, but he is the best QB on the roster now. With the offense ND is running, it is not suited for Rees. So many times this year, if Rees would only run. Even if it was for a 2 yard gain, it would help open the field greatly. Rees has been sacked less than once a game. Why? Because the defense keeps dropping back in coverage and using a 3 or 4 man rush. There has been way too many times were he could walk for a first down. Don't even get me started on our soft o-line. Sure they can block against small d-lineman of Navy and Air Force, but damn, these 4/5* o-lineman just seem to play soft. Just my opinion.

Assuming your premise is correct, this still doesn't explain the lack of creativity on both sides of the ball, consistently poor special teams play, the inability or unwillingness to put what you have (Tommy), in the best position for him to succeed, lack of offensive continuity in style and personnel, etc...

ND was not oversold on Kelly he has done a good job, in fact, maybe better than some expected, but that doesn't mean he should get a pass on everything, and it doesn't mean he should not have to continue to grow. I think everyone is so quick to blame everything on EG not being here. In the coaching profession that is not an excuse, Coach always says, "Next man in", but if the next man isn't an EG clone maybe part of the transition has to be an identity overhaul, if you are not willing to do that, then you are passively wishing that the other guy was here doing what you want to do, but that isn't reality, that isn't next man in. Then, all you are left with is excuses and "what could have been's" if this guy was here or that guy wasn't injured. As I understand it that is NOT "next man in" thinking, I thought it was accepting the reality that things change, the show must go on, and we will not make excuses, not that the next guy must be the same as the guy in front of him and if he isn't we'll blame it on the fact that I couldn't run my system.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Sorry about the grammar but what not try & make a point rather then talk trash to whoever dont agree with you?

Threads would be a lot less cluttered if people did this.

 

[rocket66]

ND would not be undefeated this year. Our defense, the one that got ND to the NC game, took a giant step back.

The defense lost the Michigan game this year, but OU and Pitt were on the offense. 9-1 right now with Golson, IMO.

 

[phork]

The defense lost the Michigan game this year, but OU and Pitt were on the offense. 9-1 right now with Golson, IMO.

So I stand by what I said. And you can't say that we beat OU or Pitt. We eeked out wins against the Pitts & Purdues last year WITH Golson.

 

[rocket66]

So I stand by what I said. And you can't say that we beat OU or Pitt. We eeked out wins against the Pitts & Purdues last year WITH Golson.

Purdue? His second career start? You don't think he improved vastly from that game? Id argue the Pitt game last year was when everything began to click and he looked comfortable and made plays in the second half.

 

[ThePiombino]

Purdue? His second career start? You don't think he improved vastly from that game? Id argue the Pitt game last year was when everything began to click and he looked comfortable and made plays in the second half.

Yeah, anyone who lumps Golson from the beginning of the season with Golson at the end of the season clearly wasn't watching the same games we were.

 

[irishpat183]

I hate to be the "next year is gonna be different guy," but here goes.

We're going to be ****ing lights out next year.

With Golson back, along with a senior Tuitt. Yes, I would bet all of my remaining Vbucks that Tuitt comes back.

DD being even more experienced and athletic, Hercules being even more studly than he already is, Folston and Bryant anchoring the back field... I think we're going to see a complete ND squad.

For anyone thinking that BK isn't the answer, next year will tell us everything we need to know. Barring injuries, it will be exactly the team he wanted when he got here. I think we should save our judgement tilll then.

I said it when BK got the job and I still believe it. If he can't bring us where we want to go, no one can.

If this season ends badly, and the NFL has him in the top 5...I dont know.


But we're missing a TON on D next year. Including Nix, who is the best player on that side of the ball. Not to mention, our Oline is going to take a hit.

The most important part of the team, the Dline and Oline, is gonna be worse. Everyone is ignoring that by playing up "DD" and "Golson" ....LOL. Talk about unrealistic expectations.

 

[NDohio]

If this season ends badly, and the NFL has him in the top 5...I dont know.


But we're missing a TON on D next year. Including Nix, who is the best player on that side of the ball. Not to mention, our Oline is going to take a hit.

The most important part of the team, the Dline and Oline, is gonna be worse. Everyone is ignoring that by playing up "DD" and "Golson" ....LOL. Talk about unrealistic expectations.

I agree with the D-Line being a big concern next year. I am not as concerned with the O-Line. I know ZMart is gonna be missed, but overall I think the O-Line will be about the same.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

ND would not be undefeated this year. Our defense, the one that got ND to the NC game, took a giant step back.

Assuming your premise is correct, this still doesn't explain the lack of creativity on both sides of the ball, consistently poor special teams play, the inability or unwillingness to put what you have (Tommy), in the best position for him to succeed, lack of offensive continuity in style and personnel, etc...

ND was not oversold on Kelly he has done a good job, in fact, maybe better than some expected, but that doesn't mean he should get a pass on everything, and it doesn't mean he should not have to continue to grow. I think everyone is so quick to blame everything on EG not being here. In the coaching profession that is not an excuse, Coach always says, "Next man in", but if the next man isn't an EG clone maybe part of the transition has to be an identity overhaul, if you are not willing to do that, then you are passively wishing that the other guy was here doing what you want to do, but that isn't reality, that isn't next man in. Then, all you are left with is excuses and "what could have been's" if this guy was here or that guy wasn't injured. As I understand it that is NOT "next man in" thinking, I thought it was accepting the reality that things change, the show must go on, and we will not make excuses, not that the next guy must be the same as the guy in front of him and if he isn't we'll blame it on the fact that I couldn't run my system.

I don't understand the logic to assume making one change, no matter how important, goes from the flawed performances we have seen this year to undefeated football. The last I saw we were fifteen men down off of the spring depth chart (including Everett Golson.) Now, I agree putting Everett back cleans up some of the flawed offensive operation that we have seen this year. And I agree with JJones that next year could be great.

The offensive line is awesome, with great prospects waiting to fill in on the left side. The WR, TE and RB corps should be on fire. Can we count on Everett? Can Malik back him up? Best case scenario, 38-46 ppg juggernaut.

Defense, how many come back and how many are healthy? It all could be great or it could end up poorly. But this year was a compendium of things. Mega injuries exposed some core weaknesses; pass first and bend but don't break defense.

I don't know that anyone needs to be fired to win a NC. But both coordinators need to do their jobs differently! This isn't an epiphany, or inside information, passive/aggressive angst, wisdom, or any specific football knowledge. Kelly is an awesome manager and program builder; people don't respect, they tear apart passive defenses; and Kelly said it at the beginning of the year, he and Martin are on the same page, they are alike. Too much alike.

 

[anarin]

.

Guess that's why boards like these exist, everyone has their own opinion

 

[irisheyes]

Of course we are going to be lights out next year, thats what every cubs fan says every august. Lets focus on this year. What can BK do to improve on this year with what he has. Im slightly concerned about no practice during the bye week. I understand the healing aspect of it, but i hope we dont come out flat.