ND Oversold on Kelly?

[CarrollVermin]

I hope that this becomes an educated discussion, and not a "you hate Kelly...yada, yada, yada" thread. I am not trying to troll the fan base, but want to get some insight on how people view the current state of the program. That being said:

Has the hiring of Kelly been oversold to the ND fan base? If you look at the last three and a half years, you find a program that has been mired in defections due to player attrition, and outside of a senior-***** team last year, has consistently under-performed.

He came here as an offensive guru (our second one of those), and our offense has yet to reach the pinnacle of those expectations. Yes, having a system QB has been part of the issue, but the QB situation is one that should have been consistently addressed in recruiting, developed, and should have never been one impacted by player attrition. Our offensive line is a train wreck, as we can't move the ball, and the guy that should be coaching that position is sitting with an undefeated OSU team one state over. At the same time, we have a defensive coordinator as our offensive coordinator. Les Miles needed a new OC; he went and hired Cam Cameron. The difference was evident on Saturday in their offensive performance (this isn't about an LSU win or loss, but they are scoring more points and have greater consistency out of the QB position).

Defensively, we still have yet to develop a championship caliber secondary, and again, we were sold on player development and "building these guys up". Our defense is slow again, and if you don't believe me, go back and check our third down numbers, or watch the last OU touchdown and how we got blazed by on a third and nine.

I don't want to make this too long, but I think you get where I am coming from. Recruiting has not resulted in development, and the product shows on the field. It isn't academics...Stanford and Northwestern (among others) prove you can win with academics, and its not our schedule (name one team in the top 15 that would not be undefeated right now having played our current schedule). Perhaps it then is the leadership and ability of the head coach. Thoughts?

 

[Irish Insanity]

You lost me with 'I hope this becomes an educated discussion'

 

[dublinirish]

BK has never been "an offensive guru" and has never been correctly labelled as such. Go on smartfootball or any such football nerd websites and you will see BK is not highly regarded as a offensive mind. A good football coach sure but no genius.

 

[aubeirish]

It's a pretty easy answer. It starts and ends with QB play.

2010 --> Mediocre QB, 8-5
2011 --> Mediocre QB, 8-5
2012 --> Young QB, but that can run and extend plays, 12-1
2013 --> Mediocre QB, probably 8-5...

edit: Like Dublin says, BK is not an offensive guru. He's a great CEO. Personally, I think that the Head coach of Notre Dame needs to be a great CEO. Now, he needs to go out and hire a big time Offensive Coordinator for next year.

 

[Rocket89]

How do you expect to have an educated discussion when you only present one side of the argument?

Keys for Brian Kelly:

1. Blow out more teams
2. Decrease the amount of blowout losses & bad losses
3. Recruit football-first players
4. Develop mental toughness
5. Maintain healthy depth across the roster
6. Push the envelope with technology (aka program needs)
7. Avoid losing seasons
8. Develop the QB position
9. Keep the coaching staff as solidified as possible
10. Beat more ranked teams

So far Kelly's doing very well in keys 2, 4, 6, 7, and 9.

He's doing a good job with 3, 5, and 10.

He's still struggling with 1 and 8. He hasn't had the best of luck with the QB situation he inherited, Golson's suspension, and if that 'gets figured out' that will lead to more blowout wins---not to mention a much stronger overall program.

Everyone wants to get myopic after a 3-2 start but Kelly's still done a great job in many areas.

There are still some questions lingering about Kelly, which I think ask whether he'll be a truly great coach at ND, and most of those questions are fair, IMO. But the OP is completely over-reacting even if you do ask a couple decent questions.

 

[Kanye West]

It's a pretty easy answer. It starts and ends with QB play.

2010 --> Mediocre QB, 8-5
2011 -->*Mediocre QB, 8-5
2012 --> Young QB, but that can run and extend plays, 12-1
2013 --> Mediocre QB, probably 8-5...

edit: Like Dublin says, BK is not an offensive guru. He's a great CEO. Personally, I think that the Head coach of Notre Dame needs to be a great CEO. Now, he needs to go out and hire a big time Offensive Coordinator for next year.

Aka Jeff Quinn. You cannot win without an offense. This defense would be much much better if the offense actually sustained drives and didn't go 3 and out so much.

 

[NDohio]

I hope that this becomes an educated discussion, and not a "you hate Kelly...yada, yada, yada" thread. I am not trying to troll the fan base, but want to get some insight on how people view the current state of the program. That being said:

Has the hiring of Kelly been oversold to the ND fan base? If you look at the last three and a half years, you find a program that has been mired in defections due to player attrition, and outside of a senior-***** team last year, has consistently under-performed.

He came here as an offensive guru (our second one of those), and our offense has yet to reach the pinnacle of those expectations. Yes, having a system QB has been part of the issue, but the QB situation is one that should have been consistently addressed in recruiting, developed, and should have never been one impacted by player attrition. Our offensive line is a train wreck, as we can't move the ball, and the guy that should be coaching that position is sitting with an undefeated OSU team one state over. At the same time, we have a defensive coordinator as our offensive coordinator. Les Miles needed a new OC; he went and hired Cam Cameron. The difference was evident on Saturday in their offensive performance (this isn't about an LSU win or loss, but they are scoring more points and have greater consistency out of the QB position).

Defensively, we still have yet to develop a championship caliber secondary, and again, we were sold on player development and "building these guys up". Our defense is slow again, and if you don't believe me, go back and check our third down numbers, or watch the last OU touchdown and how we got blazed by on a third and nine.

I don't want to make this too long, but I think you get where I am coming from. Recruiting has not resulted in development, and the product shows on the field. It isn't academics...Stanford and Northwestern (among others) prove you can win with academics, and its not our schedule (name one team in the top 15 that would not be undefeated right now having played our current schedule). Perhaps it then is the leadership and ability of the head coach. Thoughts?

I am not going to get into the argument of whether or not BK is a good coach or not. Here is my question to you though. At the time of his hiring, with the state that UND football was in, who would have been a better hire? I am talking legitimate candidates that A) would have taken the job and B) would be able to live with the insane boundaries that ND puts on a football coach.

And nobody would be happy if we were only as successful as Northwestern .....

 

[kmoose]

How do you expect to have an educated discussion when you only present one side of the argument?

Keys for Brian Kelly:

1. Blow out more teams
2. Decrease the amount of blowout losses & bad losses
3. Recruit football-first players
4. Develop mental toughness
5. Maintain healthy depth across the roster
6. Push the envelope with technology (aka program needs)
7. Avoid losing seasons
8. Develop the QB position
9. Keep the coaching staff as solidified as possible
10. Beat more ranked teams

So far Kelly's doing very well in keys 2, 4, 6, 7, and 9.

He's doing a good job with 3, 5, and 10.

He's still struggling with 1 and 8. He hasn't had the best of luck with the QB situation he inherited, Golson's suspension, and if that 'gets figured out' that will lead to more blowout wins---not to mention a much stronger overall program.

Everyone wants to get myopic after a 3-2 start but Kelly's still done a great job in many areas.

There are still some questions lingering about Kelly, which I think ask whether he'll be a truly great coach at ND, and most of those questions are fair, IMO. But the OP is completely over-reacting even if you do ask a couple decent questions.

I don't think Kelly is struggling with developing QBs. He took a 3* guy, in Rees, and has turned him into a very serviceable starter. Golson looked to be making good progress, last year, and now is lost due to an academic issue. It's not like Golson was benched because he wasn't getting the job done, because Kelly hasn't developed him. I'm not hanging the Kiel transfer on Kelly, either, considered the flaky behavior that kid exhibited before he even got to ND.

I'm not saying that Kelly has done a phenomenal job, developing these guys; but I think to say that he has struggled is inaccurate.

 

[EuropeanDomer]

Results can change perception of the reality.

Last year, we won against Purdue with an even ugliest performance than this year. We won against Pitt in big part thanks to his kicker. We won BYU with the same feeling we are having this year. Stanford with Nunes as a starting QB with some good luck. Then Alabama just humiliated Notre Dame.

Obviously, we had a glorious year if you look the results, but we never been a dominant team and Kelly did not won any game from the sideline.

 

[Emcee77]

It's a pretty easy answer. It starts and ends with QB play.

2010 --> Mediocre QB, 8-5
2011 -->*Mediocre QB, 8-5
2012 --> Young QB, but that can run and extend plays, 12-1
2013 --> Mediocre QB, probably 8-5...

edit: Like Dublin says, BK is not an offensive guru. He's a great CEO. Personally, I think that the Head coach of Notre Dame needs to be a great CEO. Now, he needs to go out and hire a big time Offensive Coordinator for next year.

I agree. I think our program is in great shape overall ... we just don't have a QB. We had two QBs recruited by Kelly, and one transferred and the other is suspended. If Golson was our starting QB, we would be 5-0.

(That's not to say we don't need work in other areas ... of course we do. Our D is solid but hardly dominating this year, and if it was as good as last year we probably would have won at least the UM game, maybe OU too. I'm just saying that the QB is what's holding us back)

When Jimmy Clausen is your QB and you can't win, you gotta go. I was basically with Weis through 2008 ... but when we sucked in 2009 with one of the best college QBs I could ever remember seeing under center, not to mention the most exciting receiver, I knew it was time for him to go. I just don't feel comfortable saying the same about Kelly yet. I want to see whether he can win with his handpicked QBs. Next year will be a big year for our offense.

I don't think Martin is the problem; or, to put it more accurately, I don't think Jeff Quinn would fix anything. From what I've heard about him, he's no different from Martin: a good managing/teaching coach who coached the offense by implementing Kelly's vision for it. It's not like the offense was good while he was there because he imposed his personality or plan for it. He was just doing what Martin is trying to do, which is get coached by Kelly and then transfer that coaching to the players.

 

[edgesofsanity]

Personally, I think that the Head coach of Notre Dame needs to be a great CEO. Now, he needs to go out and hire a big time Offensive Coordinator for next year.

I hear Lane Kiffin is available...

 

[TheTurningPoint]

Let me ask you this.

Top to bottom is the program in better shape than in 2009?

Is it his fault that the QB situation is in the state it is? He can only do so much. Kids will be kids. Decisions will be made that are out of anyones control.

 

[EuropeanDomer]

I agree. I think our program is in great shape overall ... we just don't have a QB. We had two QBs recruited by Kelly, and one transferred and the other is suspended. If Golson was our starting QB, we would be 5-0.

(That's not to say we don't need work in other areas ... of course we do. Our D is solid but hardly dominating this year, and if it was as good as last year we probably would have won at least the UM game, maybe OU too. I'm just saying that the QB is what's holding us back)

When Jimmy Clausen is your QB and you can't win, you gotta go. I was basically with Weis through 2008 ... but when we sucked in 2009 with one of the best college QBs I could ever remember seeing under center, not to mention the most exciting receiver, I knew it was time for him to go. I just don't feel comfortable saying the same about Kelly yet. I want to see whether he can win with his handpicked QBs. Next year will be a big year for our offense.

I don't think Martin is the problem; or, to put it more accurately, I don't think Jeff Quinn would fix anything. From what I've heard about him, he's no different from Martin: a good managing/teaching coach who coached the offense by implementing Kelly's vision for it. It's not like the offense was good while he was there because he imposed his personality or plan for it. He was just doing what Martin is trying to do, which is get coached by Kelly and then transfer that coaching to the players.

Just don't a have a QB? Yeah, and no defense. A group of 5 RB's. Terrible coaching. The overall team is sucking. Absolutely unfair focusing all on Rees.

 

[irishpat183]

Let me ask you this.

Top to bottom is the program in better shape than in 2009?

Is it his fault that the QB situation is in the state it is? He can only do so much. Kids will be kids. Decisions will be made that are out of anyones control.

But I'm not looking just to be "better than 2009"...


What about that do the Kelly jock holders NOT GET?

CHAMPIONSHIPS AND BCS WINS. Nobody gives a flying f*** about being better than a pathetic time in ND history.

We sure as hell better "be better than 2009"...That is expected.

(no disrepect TP)

 

[PANDFAN]

I def think he is the right person for the job..key issues

-qb play-loss of starter before season--we have a seasoned vet that plays avg/bad/good but not steady

-loss of senior leaders on def which is showing how much they meant last year
-new def scheme/responsibilities---we are taking our lumps but there is def improvement

 

[Emcee77]

Just don't a have a QB? Yeah, and no defense. A group of 5 RB's. Terrible coaching. The overall team is sucking. Absolutely unfair focusing all on Rees.

I totally disagree that "the overall team is sucking": the team is playing pretty well on defense. But in any case, you've mischaracterized my post. I didn't say our only problem this year is that we don't have a QB; I said the program is in good shape except that we don't have a QB. I'm not "focusing all" my criticism "on Rees." The purpose of my post and this thread is not to criticize anyone except Kelly. Rees is out there doing his best. But if, after watching this team the last three seasons, you don't see that Rees prevents Kelly from running the offense he really wants to run, I don't know what to say to you.

My point is that I'm going to reserve judgment about Kelly until he can get the QB he wants in there. Circumstances have prevented him from doing that thus far, except for last season, when we appeared in the NCG. Whether that's entirely his fault or not, I'm not ready to judge him as a coach yet.

 

[kmoose]

But I'm not looking just to be "better than 2009"...


What about that do the Kelly jock holders NOT GET?

CHAMPIONSHIPS AND BCS WINS. Nobody gives a flying f*** about being better than a pathetic time in ND history.

We sure as hell better "be better than 2009"...That is expected.

(no disrepect TP)

What about the modern era of NCAA DI-A football do you delusionists NOT GET?

You can't put together runs like Leahy, Rockne, or Parseghian had, unless you are flat out cheating/fielding a future prison team to do it. I'm not saying be happy with mediocrity. What I am saying is that you have to be more patient, in the modern era.

 

[BobD]

You can break down stats or whatever you want, there isn't a better man in the country to have as head football coach at Notre Dame.

 

[rikkitikki08]

You can break down stats or whatever you want, there isn't a better man in the country to have as head football coach at Notre Dame.

This

 

[irishpat183]

You can break down stats or whatever you want, there isn't a better man in the country to have as head football coach at Notre Dame.

Nick Saban (while tapping his rings on the table)....

 

[irishtrinity]

God find a better way to spend your day! BK is our boy. Team is great. Fans some are the problem.

 

[Luckylucci]

Let me ask you this.

Top to bottom is the program in better shape than in 2009?

Is it his fault that the QB situation is in the state it is? He can only do so much. Kids will be kids. Decisions will be made that are out of anyones control.

For all the Kelly haters, legitimately answer this question. Does the staff need to do better? Of course and I'd be the first one to tell you that but calling for his head is ridiculous. If your gonna be a fan of ND you have to be able to deal with situations like this. One QB transferred because he wasn't going to play and then they punished a kid for his mistakes. The more I read this board the more I think to myself, some on here are only fans of football and nothing else. ND isn't EVER going to be football first, what don't you get about that! If you want football first go some place else. And I know the first thing everybody is going to say "Why can't we do it if Stanford can?" First of all, we beat Stanford last year and went to the NCG game, they haven't been to NCG yet. Secondly, that is only one school out of the entire country that has both an elite academic and football environment.

 

[irishpat183]

I guess I'm just at a point where I want wins on the field. I get what ND is all about...but at some point, with all of our supposed "advantages"...I want championships or at the very least, big bowl wins.

Being 10-2 with a bowl loss, to me, is not a good season.

 

[TDHeysus]

-best coach since Lou Holtz (without a doubt, its not even close)
-has developed a program at Notre Dame that is just starting (ND hasn't had a program with a clear plan since Holtz)
-stabilized the football environment at Notre Dame
-I think some ppl compare his results with Urban Liar at FLA and Saban at Bama and assume it should happen here. it isn't that easy.
-I stated in another thread, of all the issues at Notre Dame, the HC isn't even close to being one of them.

 

[irishpat183]

For all the Kelly haters, legitimately answer this question. Does the staff need to do better? Of course and I'd be the first one to tell you that but calling for his head is ridiculous. If your gonna be a fan of ND you have to be able to deal with situations like this. One QB transferred because he wasn't going to play and then they punished a kid for his mistakes. The more I read this board the more I think to myself, some on here are only fans of football and nothing else. ND isn't EVER going to be football first, what don't you get about that! If you want football first go some place else. And I know the first thing everybody is going to say "Why can't we do it if Stanford can?" First of all, we beat Stanford last year and went to the NCG game, they haven't been to NCG yet. Secondly, that is only one school out of the entire country that has both an elite academic and football environment.

THen get rid of NBC and all the national crap. ND is football first to most people. And I doubt some of the guys we recruit come to ND to enjoy South Bend and a great education.

 

[irishtrinity]

I guess I'm just at a point where I want wins on the field. I get what ND is all about...but at some point, with all of our supposed "advantages"...I want championships or at the very least, big bowl wins.

Being 10-2 with a bowl loss, to me, is not a good season.

That to me is a good season. How many teams have even been in the championship in the past 5 yrs. Like 5 teams and we are one.

 

[ThePiombino]

Aka Jeff Quinn. You cannot win without an offense. This defense would be much much better if the offense actually sustained drives and didn't go 3 and out so much.

Can Jeff Quinn turn Rees into Golson? If not (and I assume he can't), then this is a moot point. The offense is a Cadillac, the engine is from a FIAT - and not this new trendy kind.

 

[CarrollVermin]

Let me ask you this.

Top to bottom is the program in better shape than in 2009?

Is it his fault that the QB situation is in the state it is? He can only do so much. Kids will be kids. Decisions will be made that are out of anyones control.

I respect your opinions TP, and we are in a better place since 2009, but can you honestly say that this is where you expected to be four years in? I saw that you sent a tweet yesterday that Rome was not built overnight, but we are four years in. Look at the success that others have had in that time period: Saban, Meyer, Shaw, Chip Kelly, Dabo, Fisher (FSU), Sumlin (although he has the best QB in the country). There is a long list of these coaches that built it a lot quicker than Kelly has. I understand we played in the BCSNCG last year, but we were a few plays away from being 9-3 (yes...we made the plays and were 12-0...bounces are part of the game). The consistency that he preached when he got here is not evident, and the development he talked about isn't necessarily happening either. Four years in we STILL can't get a DB to turn their head on a fade route.

 

[CarrollVermin]

I guess I'm just at a point where I want wins on the field. I get what ND is all about...but at some point, with all of our supposed "advantages"...I want championships or at the very least, big bowl wins.

Being 10-2 with a bowl loss, to me, is not a good season.

I will strongly disagree with you here...10 wins is a fantastic season for me. I will take ten wins every year. And I guess that was my expectation from last year moving forward. I didn't think we would have to "rebuild" so quickly.

 

[Cackalacky]

Let me ask you this.

Top to bottom is the program in better shape than in 2009?

Is it his fault that the QB situation is in the state it is? He can only do so much. Kids will be kids. Decisions will be made that are out of anyones control.

This.

BK has a system and from everything I have read, heard and seen, our program is sooooo much better shape. Are there things to improve on? Yes. Set the bar higher and move forward.