Muhammad Cartoon Contest....

[pkt77242]

I'd like you to remember the last time folks acted like this in our country.

Can you remember? When was the last time we armed ourselves outside of anyone's places of worship? When was the last time we brought guns to people's churches and told them to "scram?"

Do you remember?

Sit on that for a second, then shut your mouth. Fuckin Fascist.

While I don't agree with the end of your post (Kmoose and I disagree a lot but he is not a Fascist), you bring up a good point in the bold part?

Would this be ok if it was outside of a Catholic church, or a Baptist Church? Would their be outrage over it? If 600 armed Muslims showed up outside a Catholic Church yelling Fuck Catholics, would we view it the same way? What if it was 600 gun carrying gay people making out in front of the church (not that it was Catholics doing it to the Muslims, just using it as many of us are Catholics) and yelling "Fuck Catholics"? Would you feel safe if that was your Church? The only thing this can do is cause more problems, not help.

I would find both of those just as wrong as I found what happened outside of the Muslim Community Center.

 

[JughedJones]

While I don't agree with the end of your post (Kmoose and I disagree a lot but he is not a Fascist), you bring up a good point in the bold part?

Would this be ok if it was outside of a Catholic church, or a Baptist Church? Would their be outrage over it? If 600 armed Muslims showed up outside a Catholic Church yelling Fuck Catholics, would we view it the same way? What if it was 600 gun carrying gay people making out in front of the church (not that it was Catholics doing it to the Muslims, just using it as many of us are Catholics) and yelling "Fuck Catholics"? Would you feel safe if that was your Church? The only thing this can do is cause more problems, not help.

I would find both of those just as wrong as I found what happened outside of the Muslim Community Center.

Thank you for agreeing, and I know I said it in a hostile way.

But he is a proponent of terrible. If we want to be the good guys, we need to say "absolutely not!" to this dipshit way of thinking.

 

[kmoose]

I'd like you to remember the last time folks acted like this in our country.

Can you remember? When was the last time we armed ourselves outside of anyone's places of worship? When was the last time we brought guns to people's churches and told them to "scram?"

Do you remember?

Sit on that for a second, then shut your mouth. Fuckin Fascist.

If you are referring to the KKK and Black churches, then I would say that you are comparing apples to oranges. African Baptists were not targeting Americans (and others) around the globe, simply because the people didn't ascribe to the same religion. Nor were African Methodists publically announcing that they would kill or enslave anyone who did not convert to their religion. The circumstances surrounding those events are NOTHING like the circumstances that are surrounding today's events. And I don't recall calling you a "fucking slack jawed tree hugger", or telling you to shut your mouth. And I sure as hell didn't send you a PM to say "Fuck you", so I am not sure why you feel the need to do these things to me?

 

[Bishop2b5]

And I sure as hell didn't send you a PM to say "Fuck you", so I am not sure why you feel the need to do these things to me?

Jughead, seriously? Why would you do something like that? If you don't agree with someone's opinion or beliefs or point of view, that's fine, but use intelligence and facts to prove them wrong or just to state an alternate view that you think is more accurate. To resort to what you did is tantamount to admitting you've lost the battle of ideas and have to resort to personal attacks and vulgar insults, and it doesn't reflect well on you as a person. Not cool and not the way decent, intelligent adults debate anything.

 

[JughedJones]

If you are referring to the KKK and Black churches, then I would say that you are comparing apples to oranges. African Baptists were not targeting Americans (and others) around the globe, simply because the people didn't ascribe to the same religion. Nor were African Methodists publically announcing that they would kill or enslave anyone who did not convert to their religion. The circumstances surrounding those events are NOTHING like the circumstances that are surrounding today's events. And I don't recall calling you a "fucking slack jawed tree hugger", or telling you to shut your mouth. And I sure as hell didn't send you a PM to say "Fuck you", so I am not sure why you feel the need to do these things to me?

Nothing I didn't say out in the open.

Just wanted to make sure you heard it.

This behavior is exactly like the worst this country has ever seen. You defending it is reprehensible.

I called you a fascist earlier, and I meant it. These are your people... Own it.

Edit: There is no debate here Bishop. This horseshit is way beyond the pale. There's no intellectual discourse needed. You're either on one side or the other. You think it's cool to bring guns to other people's churches and call them names .. or you don't.

That's it.

 

[kmoose]

Nothing I didn't say out in the open.

Just wanted to make sure you heard it.

This behavior is exactly like the worst this country has ever seen. You defending it is reprehensible.

I called you a fascist earlier, and I meant it. These are your people... Own it.

Edit: There is no debate here Bishop. This horseshit is way beyond the pale. There's no intellectual discourse needed. You're either on one side or the other. You think it's cool to bring guns to other people's churches and call them names .. or you don't.

That's it.

Oh, well........ if you said it out in the open, well then that makes it ok. You are right about one thing....... there is no debate here. But you are wrong about one thing: you don't get to make up the idea that I am defending armed people outside of a church protesting. In fact, I said that I opposed it, specifically:

Let's not get too melodramatic. Terrorists don't wait for provocation; they shoot people just because they don't like them. Encouraging people to bring weapons was a really dumb idea, and I think that the authorities should have been able to prohibit them from showing up with them.

But hey, don't let the facts stand in the way of your idealistic outrage at "this dipshit way of thinking"......

 

[JughedJones]

Oh, well........ if you said it out in the open, well then that makes it ok. You are right about one thing....... there is no debate here. But you are wrong about one thing: you don't get to make up the idea that I am defending armed people outside of a church protesting. In fact, I said that I opposed it, specifically:



But hey, don't let the facts stand in the way of your idealistic outrage at "this dipshit way of thinking"......

Fuck you.

You also said that the idea wasn't meant to insult. "The intent of the Draw Muhammad event was not to insult Muslims. It was to use their First Amendment rights" blah blah blah.


You're an idiot and my enemy.

It was meant to demean and pick a fight. (with guns)

 

[kmoose]

Fuck you.

You also said that the idea wasn't meant to insult. "The intent of the Draw Muhammad event was not to insult Muslims. It was to use their First Amendment rights" blah blah blah.


You're an idiot and my enemy.

It was meant to demean and pick a fight. (with guns)

*just chuckles* you are an angry, angry little man, and I feel like I should pity you. But I am your enemy, so I won't.

 

[JughedJones]

*just chuckles* you are an angry, angry little man, and I feel like I should pity you. But I am your enemy, so I won't.

good. I don't pity you. I fear people like you.

This country has a long ugly history of the behavior you condone. I for one won't stand for it anymore.


Any time I see an idiot like you back hatred, I'll call you on your backwards fascist tendencies.


You should go ahead and keep doing the opposite. That way we can keep an eye on you.

 

[Redbar]

This is where you arrive when you start with your personal biases towards a subject and try to rationalize your way back to a logical argument. Some people call it cognitive dissonance or it is also a form of moral relativism.

 

[IrishLion]

Contrarian for the sake of being contrarian?

 

[GoIrish41]

Correct. I respect that the Supreme Court has ruled that it is legal free speech, but I still don't think that people who choose to make the United States their home, and enjoy the opportunities, freedoms, and benefits of this country, should be burning the most recognizable symbol of the country. I think they have a right to protest government actions that they don't agree with, but that they can do so by some means other than burning the flag.



I think there should be penalties, yes, if you intentionally burn the flag in the course of a protest. But those penalties could be as simple as a ticket, similar to jaywalking. In this case, I think the symbolism of the penalty would mean more than the actual penalty itself.



I might. Or I might not. It would really depend on the circumstances. This is similar to asking a man if he would commit violence on someone who made comments about his wife in a bar, while he was sitting there. I think most guys would tell you that it is not black and white; that it would depend on a number of factors, including: the perceived intent of the commentor, the way in which your wife reacted to the comments, the size and perceived ability to return the violence, etc.



Correct. I see no reason why a minority religion should be able to demand that we not even depict their prophet in a harmless image. If the images were demeaning or in bad taste, then I would be likely to be more sympathetic to their wishes.



No.


No matter how many times you and jughead accuse me of it, I have never stood up for their right to carry weapons at this event. In fact, I have voiced my opposition to it.



Within reason, correct. The same way I am ok with making Italian jokes, Irish jokes, lawyer jokes, etc. Gays want to be treated just like everyone else. So why should there be outrage about jokes that poke fun at gay culture the same way that jokes poke fun at Polish culture, military culture, Southern culture, or any other culture?



I rarely, if ever, discuss religion, so I am not sure where you got that. But, no, I don't think this country is falling apart at all, let alone due to a lack of faith. We certainly have our issues in this country, but it is still the one place in the world where I would most like to live. And, unlike most sheltered Americans, I have traveled a lot (mostly for work) and seen with my own eyes the conditions, attitudes, and day to day life in many other countries.

I wonder if you recognize why people see hypocrisy in your positons on flag burning and drawings that are offensive to Muslims? I am actually astonished that these two positions can coexist inside the head of the same person. You have accused people of bringing "emotion" into the discussion, that would otherwise be a civil dialogue. Yet, you seem oblivious to the idea that YOU are the one who is bringing in pre-conceived emotions into the conversation. Your indifference toward Muslims is as clear as your idea of what patriotism is. Things can only be important to you if you believe them. It doesn't seem to matter what anyone else believes. And, anyone who disagrees with you (which appears to be just about everyone at this point) views the world from their "narrow little mindset."

It isn't about the actual picutes that are drawn (I am not offended by drawing pictures but recognize that others may be) or whether they are in "good taste" (they aren't, no matter what, if people are offended by them). It is about the need to publically hold a contest that is designed to humiliate a group of people to the point that (the organizers hope) that people will respond violently and encouraging the public to come to the event armed so they can deal their redneck justice to those who are offended. You want to punish people who burn a piece of cloth that represents your country, but you have no problem putting people through this sort of public humiliation, and provocation over something that is sacred to their religious beliefs.

Your priorities are as foreign to me as they could possibly be.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Drawing Mohammed is fine, and only ever causes problems when the drawing is expressly meant to be provocative.

Showing up in front of a minority group's place of worship armed and angry is not ok. Jughead is absolutely right that it conjures up memories of the ugliest moments in American history.

 

[kmoose]

I wonder if you recognize why people see hypocrisy in your positons on flag burning and drawings that are offensive to Muslims? I am actually astonished that these two positions can coexist inside the head of the same person. You have accused people of bringing "emotion" into the discussion, that would otherwise be a civil dialogue. Yet, you seem oblivious to the idea that YOU are the one who is bringing in pre-conceived emotions into the conversation. Your indifference toward Muslims is as clear as your idea of what patriotism is. Things can only be important to you if you believe them. It doesn't seem to matter what anyone else believes. And, anyone who disagrees with you (which appears to be just about everyone at this point) views the world from their "narrow little mindset."

It isn't about the actual picutes that are drawn (I am not offended by drawing pictures but recognize that others may be) or whether they are in "good taste" (they aren't, no matter what, if people are offended by them). It is about the need to publically hold a contest that is designed to humiliate a group of people to the point that (the organizers hope) that people will respond violently and encouraging the public to come to the event armed so they can deal their redneck justice to those who are offended. You want to punish people who burn a piece of cloth that represents your country, but you have no problem putting people through this sort of public humiliation, and provocation over something that is sacred to their religious beliefs.

Your priorities are as foreign to me as they could possibly be.

I recognize, and respect, that burning the flag is a legal form of expression. I, personally, don't feel that it should be. In the most extreme of circumstances, I would be moved to violence toward the person(s) burning the flag.

What is hypocritical about me asking that Muslims recognize and respect that it is legal in the United States to draw a picture of Muhammad, even though they personally don't like it, and to reserve any violence for only the most extreme of circumstances?

 

[GoIrish41]

But you are failing to take into account that even Muslims do not agree that it is demeaning. In Iran, which is a Muslim country, you can buy postcards with pictures of Muhammad on them. And here is the problem I have with the comparison of drawing Muhammad to burning the flag: One creates something, while the other destroys something. Granted, not all creations are positives, nor are all destructions negative; but I am not advocating proclaiming jihad on anyone who would dare burn the flag, anywhere in the world. Nor am I demanding that the consequence be the forfeiture of their very life. So the comparison is not really fair.

Some Americans don't give a shit if people burn a flag either, but you still want to issue a symbolic punishment for that. In the South, you can see Confederate flags flying at houses and on state buildings, but the majority of Americans believe they are offensive to a certain segment of the population. Just because you can buy them, does not mean that all Americans are rednecks just as it means that not all Muslims should just accept that it is OK to draw pictures of Muhammed because some segment of Muslims sells postcards with his picture on them. There is almost no issue in the world that there is universal agreement on. But, when we know that people are offended, we alter our behavior in a civil society. We don't drop f-bombs in front of grandma. We change our behavior so as not to offend. Why can't we do this for for these people -- other than indifference to what they think is important. I just don't understand why anyone would poke a hornets nest with a stick.

The bolded is the purely a dogshit justification. What drawing Muhammad pictures is building is hostility, bigotry, fear and hatred.

 

[potownhero]

Maybe we are all stupid but we were reacting to your words, as you wrote them. I would call it violent and I would call it furthering a political agenda. but I would also say that they would not fit your original definition of terrorists. Your abridged version, yes. Perhaps they were terrorists before they went to Texas because they were provoked by other terrorists. They were on terrorist watch lists after all, even though they committed no acts of violence previously. So were they terrorists before the first art show or not? By your new definition they were not. If you think that I respectfully disagree.

Your moral relativism is what I don't understand.

You're saying that those who might incite some to violence are no different than those who actually commit the violence?

Would you say that an abortion doctor provoked an attack on him/herself? Many people find abortion to be more distasteful than some speech.

 

[GoIrish41]

I recognize, and respect, that burning the flag is a legal form of expression. I, personally, don't feel that it should be. In the most extreme of circumstances, I would be moved to violence toward the person(s) burning the flag.

What is hypocritical about me asking that Muslims recognize and respect that it is legal in the United States to draw a picture of Muhammad, even though they personally don't like it, and to reserve any violence for only the most extreme of circumstances?

Hypocrisy! If you cannot see how those two ideas don't fit logically together, there is really no reason to continue this conversation.

 

[GoIrish41]

Your moral relativism is what I don't understand.

You're saying that those who might incite some to violence are no different than those who actually commit the violence?

Would you say that an abortion doctor provoked an attack on him/herself? Many people find abortion to be more distasteful than some speech.

How many "terrorist attacks" were thwarted by our intelligence operatives because the Patriot Act allowed them to spy on people? Are the people who they caught before they performed their missions terroriists? Chest thumping political patriots and intelligence officiers say so. Are they also guilty of the same moral relativism?

 

[kmoose]

Hypocrisy! If you cannot see how those two ideas don't fit logically together, there is really no reason to continue this conversation.

This is getting seriously pathetic right now. Are you really this obtuse, or are you just trying to provoke an emotional response from me?

I recognize, and respect, that burning the flag is a legal form of expression. I, personally, don't feel that it should be. In the most extreme of circumstances, I would be moved to violence toward the person(s) burning the flag.

What is hypocritical about me asking that Muslims recognize and respect that it is legal in the United States to draw a picture of Muhammad, even though they personally don't like it, and to reserve any violence for only the most extreme of circumstances?

 

[kmoose]

Some Americans don't give a shit if people burn a flag either, but you still want to issue a symbolic punishment for that. In the South, you can see Confederate flags flying at houses and on state buildings, but the majority of Americans believe they are offensive to a certain segment of the population. Just because you can buy them, does not mean that all Americans are rednecks just as it means that not all Muslims should just accept that it is OK to draw pictures of Muhammed because some segment of Muslims sells postcards with his picture on them. There is almost no issue in the world that there is universal agreement on. But, when we know that people are offended, we alter our behavior in a civil society. We don't drop f-bombs in front of grandma. We change our behavior so as not to offend. Why can't we do this for for these people -- other than indifference to what they think is important. I just don't understand why anyone would poke a hornets nest with a stick.

The bolded is the purely a dogshit justification. What drawing Muhammad pictures is building is hostility, bigotry, fear and hatred.

It is amazing to me how you make excuses for two individuals who drove to Texas with the intent of killing people over some drawings, but you condemn people who did not perform any violent acts. Talk about dogshit..................

 

[Monk]

This is getting seriously pathetic right now. Are you really this obtuse, or are you just trying to provoke an emotional response from me?

Let's throw some light hearted humor into this conversation.

 

[GoIrish41]

This is getting seriously pathetic right now. Are you really this obtuse, or are you just trying to provoke an emotional response from me?

Burning a piece of cloth is "the most extreme of circumstances" that would move you to violence? Perhaps you should see a theropist about your anger issues.

 

[kmoose]

Burning a piece of cloth is "the most extreme of circumstances" that would move you to violence? Perhaps you should see a theropist about your anger issues.

Burning a piece cloth is ok, but drawing a face is not. Hypocrisy!!! Now we see the hypocrisy inherent in the system!!

For the record, I never said that burning a flag would automatically trigger a violent response from me. I have said that it would depend on the circumstances surrounding the burning of the flag.

 

[GoIrish41]

It is amazing to me how you make excuses for two individuals who drove to Texas with the intent of killing people over some drawings, but you condemn people who did not perform any violent acts. Talk about dogshit..................

I didn't make excuses for anyone. I said that the people who provoked them shared in the blame for the incident. I called them terrorists. And, when these stupid redneck fucks tried to provoke Muslims, I would say the same thing if there was a hostile reaction in Arizona.
My definition of "terrorist" is different than yours, remember. In my definition, we don't have to wait for some horrible, deadly incident to happen before we do anything about it.

 

[kmoose]

I didn't make excuses for anyone. I said that the people who provoked them shared in the blame for the incident.

I don't recall disagreeing with that, only saying that it doesn't excuse the actions of the two individuals that tried to shoot the place up.

 

[GoIrish41]

Burning a piece cloth is ok, but drawing a face is not. Hypocrisy!!! Now we see the hypocrisy inherent in the system!!

For the record, I never said that burning a flag would automatically trigger a violent response from me. I have said that it would depend on the circumstances surrounding the burning of the flag.

I'm saying we should not do either one. Not because they are illegal, but because they are designed to make people angry and react. You see, no hypocrisy. I treat both instances the same. Unlike in your world, in which you can't burn the flag because moose might get angry and he personally believes that it should be illegal, but it is OK to insult people at their place of worship because moose doesn't think that drawing pictures is insulting enough to rise to the level of "the most extreme circumstances". Anyone who disagrees should just repress their feelings or get the fuck out of moose's country and move somewhere they would enjoy even less freedom. Who do these fucking Muslims think they are anyway, Americans? Think again towel heads. Think again. This is moose country.

 

[kmoose]

I'm saying we should not do either one. Not because they are illegal, but because they are designed to make people angry and react. You see, no hypocrisy. I treat both instances the same. Unlike in your world, in which you can't burn the flag because moose might get angry and he personally believes that it should be illegal, but it is OK to insult people at their place of worship because moose doesn't think that drawing pictures is insulting enough to rise to the level of "the most extreme circumstances". Anyone who disagrees should just repress their feelings or get the fuck out of moose's country and move somehere where they would enjoy even less freedom. Who do these fucking Muslims think they are anyway, Americans? Think again towel heads. Think again. This is moose country.

Well, there you have it. When you run out of ideas that actually are pertinent to the topic, attack your opponent's person. And with that, I will disengage from this debate. But I do want to consider to how humiliated I am, and how much you KNEW that that post would humiliate me, and consider why it is ok for you to engage in that kind of behavior, but not anyone else?

 

[ND NYC]

who won this contest anyway?
what do they win?

 

[GoIrish41]

Well, there you have it. When you run out of ideas that actually are pertinent to the topic, attack your opponent's person. And with that, I will disengage from this debate. But I do want to consider to how humiliated I am, and how much you KNEW that that post would humiliate me, and consider why it is ok for you to engage in that kind of behavior, but not anyone else?

Repeating your positions is an attack on your person? Maybe I am "obtuse" or unable to see it from "my narrow little mindset" but I do not see that as an attack on your person.

 

[Wild Bill]

Let's throw some light hearted humor into this conversation.

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