More SEC arrests

[Bishop2b5]

haha.. what??

I'm not excaggerrating anything. Did these charges not happen? Were they not arrested for these charges? Are these charges not serious? What part exactly am I excaggerating?

You may have reasoning for justifiying them or explanations for why they weren't necessarily as big of a deal once they went to court. BUT AGAIN, THATS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SUBJECT.

The reality is that the crimes they were charged with are serious offenses. If you disagree with that, then you are stating that crimes like selling cocaine, DUI's, domestic voilence, etc are not serious crimes. Is that what you are saying?

I don't want to hear explanations or justifications, a simple yes or no to the question will suffice. Are the three crimes I listed 1) selling cocaine 2) DUI and 3) Domestic Voilence serious offenses?

There is no way for me to twist or exagerate a simple yes or no answer to that question.

Dude, seriously. You'be being a dishonest jerk and intentionally distorting things and ignoring my answers and then repeating the same thing over and over. I said the arrests in 08 were serious, but all your list of misdemeanors since weren't. Is there any part of that you really don't understand after me saying it 5 times now, or are you just determined to be obtuse about it in order to grind your axe?

Yes, for the 6th time now, selling cocaine is a serious crime.

Yes, DUI is a serious crime. Which of our players had a dui during the past 5 years? Not Douglas as you claim. He got his DUI before he ever came to Alabama. He got a second chance here, but failed. He OD'd at a party in Florida later. Now use that however you see fit if you want.

Yes, domestic violence is a serious crime. Now tell me what Bama player was convicted of it or even committed it. Not Upshaw as you said. He shoved a girl who slapped him. He didn't hit her. He didn't injure her. He didn't beat her as you claim. Stop exaggerating.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I think you are the one with the reading comprehension problem, my friend. I have consistently said that we aren't talking about justifications of crimes, but the severity of the charge itself and you just keep coming back with your rationlizations. You keep saying that the charges weren't serious, but they are indeed serious charges. They may or may not have been deserving of the charges, but they are serious nonethe less.

I DO NOT CARE HOW THEY HAPPENED. JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

According to this post we have:

1) Selling Cocaine (serious)
2) DUI (no answer)
3) Domestic Voilence (no answer)

If you answer "yes" to all of these questions, than you are proving my point, which was that these charges are serious. You keep saying that they aren't serious crimes, but they are serious crimes. They all have their story and they may have justifications, but that in no way takes away the severity of the charge. Everyone else is getting what I am saying, so I assure you that it is you that has the reading comprehension issue.

Just in case you had trouble reading it the first time, I DO NOT CARE HOW THEY HAPPENED AND DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THE STORY, JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I think you are the one with the reading comprehension problem, my friend. I have consistently said that we aren't talking about justifications of crimes, but the severity of the charge itself and you just keep coming back with your rationlizations. You keep saying that the charges weren't serious, but they are indeed serious charges. They may or may not have been deserving of the charges, but they are serious nonethe less.

I DO NOT CARE HOW THEY HAPPENED. JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

According to this post we have:

1) Selling Cocaine (serious)
2) DUI (no answer)
3) Domestic Voilence (no answer)

If you answer "yes" to all of these questions, than you are proving my point, which was that these charges are serious. You keep saying that they aren't serious crimes, but they are serious crimes. They all have their story and they may have justifications, but that in no way takes away the severity of the charge. Everyone else is getting what I am saying, so I assure you that it is you that has the reading comprehension issue.

Just in case you had trouble reading it the first time, I DO NOT CARE HOW THEY HAPPENED AND DO NOT WANT TO HEAR THE STORY, JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Nope, you're being intentionally dishonest and obtuse in order to pursue an agenda. At least six times I've said the 2 felonies from almost five years ago, as well as this week's arrests, are serious, but all the misdemeanors you listed aren't, yet you keep claiming otherwise. You're not that stupid and neither am I. If you feel a need to continue doing so for whatever reason, be my guest.

 

[woolybug25]

Dude, seriously. You'be being a dishonest jerk and intentionally distorting things and ignoring my answers and then repeating the same thing over and over. I said the arrests in 08 were serious, but all your list of misdemeanors since weren't. Is there any part of that you really don't understand after me saying it 5 times now, or are you just determined to be obtuse about it in order to grind your axe?

Yes, for the 6th time now, selling cocaine is a serious crime.

Yes, DUI is a serious crime. Which of our players had a dui during the past 5 years? Not Douglas as you claim. He got his DUI before he ever came to Alabama. He got a second chance here, but failed. He OD'd at a party in Florida later. Now use that however you see fit if you want.

Yes, domestic violence is a serious crime. Now tell me what Bama player was convicted of it or even committed it. Not Upshaw as you said. He shoved a girl who slapped him. He didn't hit her. He didn't injure her. He didn't beat her as you claim. Stop exaggerating.

I never excagerrated anything, and as a kindness, I will give you a head's up. Calling me names is a quick way to get banned. I should remind you that you are a guest here on OUR site. Tread lightly with the insults.

You just stated that all three are serious crimes. So that means your comments saying that no Bama players have been arrested for serious crimes is false. They most certainly have been arrested for serious crimes. If you want to debate on whether the charges were overstated for the actions committed, then that is a different conversation. But the fact remains, Bama has had a lot of arrests for serious crimes.

Again... for the billionth time... I never said that any of the players actually committed the crimes, but rather that they were charged with them and that they are serious offenses.

 

[woolybug25]

Nope, you're being intentionally dishonest and obtuse in order to pursue an agenda. At least six times I've said the 2 felonies from almost five years ago, as well as this week's arrests, are serious, but all the misdemeanors you listed aren't, yet you keep claiming otherwise. You're not that stupid and neither am I. If you feel a need to continue doing so for whatever reason, be my guest.

I have not made a single claim that any of the crimes were felonies. Show me where I did that.


I have only been saying that they are serious crimes. A DUI for instance, is not a felony, but to say its not a serious crime is foolish.

 

[irishroo]

I hope you all aren't so naive as to believe that some of this stuff doesn't happen at ND. Maybe not with the regularity as a Florida or Georgia, but it does happen and it happens more often than you think. Just because it's not reported in the media doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Bishop2b5,

I admire your courage for coming to an Irish board trying to defend your team and I also agree that you havent once defended the four thugs that are in trouble right now but I believe if your being completely honest that you would have to say that Alabama and much of the SEC have players in trouble with the legal system pretty regularly.

Some SEC schools have had an above average number of problems. Most have about the same number and severity of problems most other schools across the country have. A few have fewer problems than average. UGA, Auburn and UF have had way more than their share in recent years.

Bama is in the news today because 4 players really screwed up big time. They'll be booted off the team and the courts will deal with them as they deserve. Despite the claims of a few here or the popular perception, we've actually had no major problems in almost 5 years until this week.

 

[SoDakDomer]

You could care less? So you and several others insinuate shoving a girl who just slapped you is beating a woman or a HS kid jumping a fence to go swimming indicates he's a thug we should know not to recruit, but when I point out facts and how minor these infractions actually are, your response is "I could care less" as though their equal to murder or rape. OK, got it. I was simply agreeing that those were minor offenses I could care less about, show me where I said they are equal to rape, I was actually agreeing with you on the stupid pool incident, relax

Why was the asst. coach in possession? Do you really want to know or do you just want to hurl accusations and insults without caring if they're fair or accurate or not? The coach was at a coaching clinic. He gave a ride to a few HS coaches. The cops pulled him over shortly after he dropped the other coaches off and asked to search his car. He said sure. They found a small bag of pot stuffed in the back seat. He had no history of any drug use, and hair analysis showed he'd not used pot or any other drug in several months. Charges were dropped. Shouldn't be too hard to figure out what really happened. It was an honest question, I didn't know the story. Again relax

As for the 4 arrests this week, you'll get no argument from me on them. If any of what's come out in the last hour is true (and it probably is), Saban will send them packing. I'm just amazed at how hard a few are trying to exaggerate and make so much of all the other very minor incidents. Again show me where I made a big deal out of those minor incidents, like I said before I really don't care about those minor incidents. They happen everywhere with college kids.

I think you mis understood my "I could care less statement" I meant that I don't care if some kid got in trouble for being in a pool to late. I care about gun charges and assaults.

 

[NOLAIrish]

Yes, domestic violence is a serious crime. Now tell me what Bama player was convicted of it or even committed it. Not Upshaw as you said. He shoved a girl who slapped him. He didn't hit her. He didn't injure her. He didn't beat her as you claim. Stop exaggerating.

I'd call this event serious.

According to the arresting officer, the woman slapped Upshaw and then walked off. He chased her down and grabbed her by the hair and neck and tried to pull her down. She turned, tried to slap him and missed. Then he shoved her. The officer witnessed everything but the initial slap. That's domestic violence no matter how you slice it; dude's not trying to defend himself.

The others: eh. Deadrick/Fanney/Upchurch was essentially the same event as Rees/Calabrese. By all accounts, Castille should've never been arrested. The DUI's less disturbing for the DUI itself and more for all the red flags Saban ignored to take this kid on. I think what people react to, there, is that "major" discipline in the SEC often seems to involve simply getting bounced out of one program and into another. Douglas, Zach Mettenberger, Cam Newton, etc. The more it happens, the more these disciplinary measures look entirely pro forma, rather than an attempt to actually uphold basic ethical standards.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I hope you all aren't so naive as to believe that some of this stuff doesn't happen at ND. Maybe not with the regularity as a Florida or Georgia, but it does happen and it happens more often than you think. Just because it's not reported in the media doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Exactly. It happens at ND, Bama, Stanford, and every other program. No matter how careful you are in the type of players you recruit or how much discipline a coaching staff applies, it happens at every school to various degrees.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I'd call this event serious.

According to the arresting officer, the woman slapped Upshaw and then walked off. He chased her down and grabbed her by the hair and neck and tried to pull her down. She turned, tried to slap him and missed. Then he shoved her. The officer witnessed everything but the initial slap. That's domestic violence no matter how you slice it; dude's not trying to defend himself.

The others: eh. Deadrick/Fanney/Upchurch was essentially the same event as Rees/Calabrese. By all accounts, Castille should've never been arrested. The DUI's less disturbing for the DUI itself and more for all the red flags Saban ignored to take this kid on. I think what people react to, there, is that "major" discipline in the SEC often seems to involve simply getting bounced out of one program and into another. Douglas, Zach Mettenberger, Cam Newton, etc. The more it happens, the more these disciplinary measures look entirely pro forma, rather than an attempt to actually uphold basic ethical standards.

I think you make some valid points and have some very reasonable concerns. In Upshaw's case, it doesn't make it right, but his reaction was very normal and understandable. He just got the crap slapped out of him unexpectedly and without provocation, and he reacted like many would - an instinctive, reflexive anger and by lashing out. In his defense, he didn't strike back. If he'd had any history of violence against women, I think this would have been a different story. Instead, the girl admitted she'd slapped him without cause, her own dad said in court that she shouldn't have slapped him and didn't want any charges filed against Upshaw, and Upshaw expressed sincere regret over it all and was never involved in any sort of disciplinary issues at Bama. Basically just a good kid who lost his cool for a few seconds.

Douglas' case is more complicated. Apparently an otherwise good kid from a good family who just got hooked on drugs. After his DUI and previous drug issues, he went to rehab, went to a junior college, had no new known incidents, and appeared to have turned his life around. It's hard not to give a kid like that a second chance. He never failed a drug test at Bama and appears to have genuinely been clean and on the right track. Something happened to him that last day and for some reason he slipped. I don't regret that we gave him a second chance. He appeared to have earned it and I believe everyone deseves that chance. Unfortunately, he didn't keep earning it and it cost him his life.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I think you mis understood my "I could care less statement" I meant that I don't care if some kid got in trouble for being in a pool to late. I care about gun charges and assaults.

Ahhh, my mistake then. Thanks for clarifying. I simply misinterpreted it.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Not Upshaw as you said. He shoved a girl who slapped him. He didn't hit her. He didn't injure her. He didn't beat her as you claim. Stop exaggerating.

Kinda sounds like there was more to this story.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Saw this in the comment section on yahoo and it made me spit out my juice lol

They were also charged with fraud.....for posing as students ha ha

 

[Bishop2b5]

I have not made a single claim that any of the crimes were felonies. Show me where I did that.


I have only been saying that they are serious crimes. A DUI for instance, is not a felony, but to say its not a serious crime is foolish.

Wooly, I'm not stupid. Neither are you. Stop peeing on my leg and trying to convince me it's raining. A DUI is very serious. Douglas, the player who got one wasn't at Alabama when it happened. He came to Bama a year or two later. That we gave him a 2nd chance might make us noble or mean we didn't care as long as he could block, but you can decide which you want to beleve.

As for the rest of the misdemeanors you listed, sorry, but they aren't serious crimes. Doesn't mean I condone them or wouldn't punish the players, but none of those things were more serious, more frequent, or any worse than what most of us did as college students, or what happens at ND and every other college football program.

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

I'd call this event serious.

According to the arresting officer, the woman slapped Upshaw and then walked off. He chased her down and grabbed her by the hair and neck and tried to pull her down. She turned, tried to slap him and missed. Then he shoved her. The officer witnessed everything but the initial slap. That's domestic violence no matter how you slice it; dude's not trying to defend himself.

The others: eh. Deadrick/Fanney/Upchurch was essentially the same event as Rees/Calabrese. By all accounts, Castille should've never been arrested. The DUI's less disturbing for the DUI itself and more for all the red flags Saban ignored to take this kid on. I think what people react to, there, is that "major" discipline in the SEC often seems to involve simply getting bounced out of one program and into another. Douglas, Zach Mettenberger, Cam Newton, etc. The more it happens, the more these disciplinary measures look entirely pro forma, rather than an attempt to actually uphold basic ethical standards.

Thank you for this post. Most informative out of this entire thread. Seriously.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Kinda sounds like there was more to this story.

Not much. The girl liked Upshaw. They'd been out, but weren't seriously involved. They were at a party, but not as a couple, and Upshaw was talking to another girl. First girl didn't like that, got mad and slapped him unexpectedly and very hard, then ran. He had a few seconds of just instinctive anger & shock and grabbed her from behind and started to force her to the ground, but turned her loose first. She turned and swung at him again and he shoved her away. A cop saw all of it except the initial slap and arrested them both. It went to court and both admitted everything that happened, the cop's story jived with theirs, the girl's dad said it was just a stupid spat and the girl shouldn't have hit him, and Upshaw expressed sincere embarrassement and regret, so the judge sent them both to anger management classes and dismissed the case.

 

[Irish Steeler]

Alabama is a joke of a school, I should know, I live here! Go Irish!

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

Alabama is a joke of a school, I should know, I live here! Go Irish!

Disregard this post Bishop.

I just think you are reaching a bit here. I understand Saban has cleaned house in some respects. The Upshaw thing worries me. The fact is this most recent arrest happened, and if something similar to this happens again, then your argument of nothing happening since 2008 is less convincing. It hasn't happened, obviously, so this is conjecture. I guess we will see.

 

[D-BOE34]

Not really wanting to jump into all this madness. I do have a question though.

We consider ND to have higher standards than most everyone else, SEC for sure. We claim to bring in an overall more well rounded individual as a student athlete. It is widely known that we have less pick of the litter because of standards or whatnot. (Doesn't mean we can't recruit/win)

So when we have a DUI, assault on an officer, whatever Carlo and his people got in trouble for, something about a rape and 2 players just this season that were suspended for pot related incident... why are we so quick to jump on Bishop and Bama for how horrible they are for allowing these recruits in? That is 6 situations for ND in the last few years.

Honestly, just curious. Kids make mistakes. Some much more severe than others, such as this one. By no means do I think it is ok. But when we hold ourselves to such a higher standard, how can we point a finger when were supposed to be the golden child yet come through with just 6 off the top of my head?

 

[Bishop2b5]

I never excagerrated anything, and as a kindness, I will give you a head's up. Calling me names is a quick way to get banned. I should remind you that you are a guest here on OUR site. Tread lightly with the insults.

You just stated that all three are serious crimes. So that means your comments saying that no Bama players have been arrested for serious crimes is false. They most certainly have been arrested for serious crimes. If you want to debate on whether the charges were overstated for the actions committed, then that is a different conversation. But the fact remains, Bama has had a lot of arrests for serious crimes.

Again... for the billionth time... I never said that any of the players actually committed the crimes, but rather that they were charged with them and that they are serious offenses.

Wooly, give me a break. First, for about the 10th time now, I never said no Alabama player had been arrested for serious crimes. I've repeatedly said that since Saban cleaned out the last of the riff-raff when Johns and Elder were arrested almost 5 years ago, no Bama players had been arrested for any serious crime until this week. You've repeatedly tried to twist that, ignore it, obfuscate, and intentionally mix those two arrests from '08 in with the minor incidents of the past several years to distort and misrepresent the problems at Bama and my comments about them. Don't tell me you haven't. You haven't misunderstood what I've said this often and I'm not so naive as to believe you have. Either you have the worst reading comprehension abilities I've ever seen or you're intentionally just trying to distort things. Your call.

As for calling you a jerk, you've acted like one today. I call it like I see it. I've been exceedingly civil and reasonable with you today and never stooped to your level, while you've intentionally exaggerated, distorted, and misrepresented virtually everything I've said all to further your agenda. I'm usually a very good guest. Try being a good host and show me that ND fans are better than Auburn or SoCal fans.

I do my best to be honest and civil to everyone until they repeatedly demonstrate that they have no intention of treating me likewise. You've gotten a lot better from me than you deserved today and a LOT better from me than you'd have given if someone had done to ND what you've attempted to do to Bama. Now if you aren't tough enough to stand a little truth and being called out for acting like a jerk, by all means ask a mod to ban me.

 

[Irish Steeler]

Disregard this post Bishop.

I just think you are reaching a bit here. I understand Saban has cleaned house in some respects. The Upshaw thing worries me. The fact is this most recent arrest happened, and if something similar to this happens again, then your argument of nothing happening since 2008 is less convincing. It hasn't happened, obviously, so this is conjecture. I guess we will see.

LOL!

 

[Kak7304]

This made me lol:

@LanierPatrick: @Mark_Schlabach Very Creative Saban! #orangeshirting

 

[Bishop2b5]

Disregard this post Bishop.

I just think you are reaching a bit here. I understand Saban has cleaned house in some respects. The Upshaw thing worries me. The fact is this most recent arrest happened, and if something similar to this happens again, then your argument of nothing happening since 2008 is less convincing. It hasn't happened, obviously, so this is conjecture. I guess we will see.

And I agree with you for the most part. If you have a program that has several relatively serious arrests every year, or on a regular basis, there's a problem there. The coaches are recruiting kids with no character just because they have talent, not disciplining or monitoring the players enough, or both... and we can all think of several schools that fit that description.

Bama's had a below average number of kids get in trouble over the last 4 1/2 years and none get in serious trouble during that time until this week. I don't know what happened with these four. Did Saban just recruit some kids he shouldn't have? Were they players who went wrong after he recruited them? Were they players he thought he could turn around? Did he not give them the guidance and discipline to keep them on track? We don't know yet. Maybe none of those things. Maybe all of them. The past several years would indicate he's done a good job of not taking bad kids and that he's been a very strict disciplinarian. Hopefully this is just a fluke and we'll get another 4 or 5 years of no major problems.

 

[IrishinTN]

I'd call this event serious.

According to the arresting officer, the woman slapped Upshaw and then walked off. He chased her down and grabbed her by the hair and neck and tried to pull her down. She turned, tried to slap him and missed. Then he shoved her. The officer witnessed everything but the initial slap. That's domestic violence no matter how you slice it; dude's not trying to defend himself.

The others: eh. Deadrick/Fanney/Upchurch was essentially the same event as Rees/Calabrese. By all accounts, Castille should've never been arrested. The DUI's less disturbing for the DUI itself and more for all the red flags Saban ignored to take this kid on. I think what people react to, there, is that "major" discipline in the SEC often seems to involve simply getting bounced out of one program and into another. Douglas, Zach Mettenberger, Cam Newton, etc. The more it happens, the more these disciplinary measures look entirely pro forma, rather than an attempt to actually uphold basic ethical standards.

This description is far more serious than just reflexively pushing her. I have had women slap me, but never would I chase one down and yank her by her hair. Cripes.

 

[phork]

I see how it works. In SEC country nothing counts unless its a felony.

 

[woolybug25]

Wooly, give me a break. First, for about the 10th time now, I never said no Alabama player had been arrested for serious crimes. I've repeatedly said that since Saban cleaned out the last of the riff-raff when Johns and Elder were arrested almost 5 years ago, no Bama players had been arrested for any serious crime until this week. You've repeatedly tried to twist that, ignore it, obfuscate, and intentionally mix those two arrests from '08 in with the minor incidents of the past several years to distort and misrepresent the problems at Bama and my comments about them. Don't tell me you haven't. You haven't misunderstood what I've said this often and I'm not so naive as to believe you have. Either you have the worst reading comprehension abilities I've ever seen or you're intentionally just trying to distort things. Your call.

As for calling you a jerk, you've acted like one today. I call it like I see it. I've been exceedingly civil and reasonable with you today and never stooped to your level, while you've intentionally exaggerated, distorted, and misrepresented virtually everything I've said all to further your agenda. I'm usually a very good guest. Try being a good host and show me that ND fans are better than Auburn or SoCal fans.

I do my best to be honest and civil to everyone until they repeatedly demonstrate that they have no intention of treating me likewise. You've gotten a lot better from me than you deserved today and a LOT better from me than you'd have given if someone had done to ND what you've attempted to do to Bama. Now if you aren't tough enough to stand a little truth and being called out for acting like a jerk, by all means ask a mod to ban me.

You literally said that they hadn't been arrested for anything serious in almost every post. What in the hell are you talking about?

Nice grammar, btw.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I see how it works. In SEC country nothing counts unless its a felony.

That depends. What do you think they should count as? Do you think a HS kid who sneaks into the city pool with some friends for a swim is a hardened criminal and shoudn't get to play college football? Should that be considered a serious crime?

What about the player who gets arrested for disorderly conduct because he got into a shouting match outside a bar late at night. No punches, just shoving and yelling at each other? Life in prison or execution? Hard to decide. What would ND do to him? Surely no ND player ever did anything like that.

So, which of those misdemeanors do you consider major crimes and warranting a player being expelled from school or off the team? Which ones are worse than anything you've ever done? Which ones are so terrible that no ND player has ever done them? You really want to talk serious crimes here and claim less than a dozen misdemeanors in 5 years makes Bama a horrible out of control program with no discipline and ND's (or any other program's) players are all squeaky clean choirboys? Give me a break.

Nobody's saying minor incidents are OK, but they aren't murder, rape, armed robbery, or other serious crimes either, and there's no reason to try and make them something they aren't just because you hate a school or a conference. You wouldn't want someone doing the same to ND, so why do you think it's OK for you to do it to someone else?

 

[Bishop2b5]

You literally said that they hadn't been arrested for anything serious in almost every post. What in the hell are you talking about?

Nice grammar, btw.

This is easy to settle. Show me where I said no Bama player has been arrested for serious crimes. I've said none have been arrested for serious crimes since the summer of '08 until this week. You can leave off the end of my sentences and change their meaning entirely, but then we all know why you need to do that. You either have major reading comprehension issues or major honesty and character issues, el dude.

That a man has to lie to support his argument tells you much about his intellect; that he needs to do so tells you much about the validity of his argument; that he would stoop to doing so tells you much about his character.

 

[IrishLax]

Very confused why people need to make every incident into some sweeping generalization about a university, coach, culture, etc.

Four players are alleged to have committed some pretty bad crimes, three seem to have confessed, another seems to be going with 'wrong place, wrong time'... and all are suspended while the facts are coming out.

So, in this one instance, what exactly could 'Bama do better/differently? I can't think of anything. Right now... they're doing everything by the book. Now... if Alabama didn't suspend them or didn't kick them out of school if the allegations are true... then that is something to get up in arms about. But right now? I just don't really get the outrage.