Michigan/Stanford/ND Educating Players

[Domina Nostra]

If we get him on campus, I like our chances. ND fits all of his requirements. But, they fit Noor Davis' requirement too.

I am never comfortable with the kids who are truly top-notch students who are looking for an education first. I think ND really is far and away the best education that a normal football player is going to get (actually get, not just have access to) at any school aiming for championships. However, as far as rankings are concerned, Stanford, Duke, and Northwestern are all more prestigious. The kids who are really tuned in know this.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I am never comfortable with the kids who are truly top-notch students who are looking for an education first. I think ND really is far and away the best education that a normal football player is going to get (actually get, not just have access to) at any school aiming for championships. However, as far as rankings are concerned, Stanford, Duke, and Northwestern are all more prestigious. The kids who are really tuned in know this.

Stanford is #5, Duke is #9, Northwestern is #12, and Notre Dame is #19.

Stanford is the only one that I would concede is academically more prestigious.

Duke and Northwestern can't touch our alumni network, nor are their football programs remotely comparable.

Stanford is the only real competitor right now for kids who want both an elite education and BCS-caliber football. Knocking them down a few pegs would help tremendously for recruiting kids like Davis in the future.

 

[IrishInColumbus]

Domina Nostra make a good point that regardless of the institution Notre Dame actually educates its football players. Big difference between going to a place like Michigan and just taking Phys Ed classes and going to Notre Dame.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

Michigan isn't exactly Louisville when it comes to academics, though.. as much as I hate them, they're probably a top 10 public university if not top 5.. I hate scUM as much as the next guy, but the statement you made might be a little off

 

[NDinL.A.]

Michigan isn't exactly Louisville when it comes to academics, though.. as much as I hate them, they're probably a top 10 public university if not top 5.. I hate scUM as much as the next guy, but the statement you made might be a little off

It's not that...Michigan can offer a phenomenal education. But they steer their players towards the incredibly easy majors, and their admissions are far easier to pass than ND's. Dude, in 2007, they checked Michigan's media guide, and of the 30 players who had declared majors, 19 (62%!!!) of them majored in 'general studies'. Seriously???

When Jim Harbaugh was at Mich, he was told to switch his major from History to something easier, so he could concentrate on football. Here's what Harbaugh had to say about Michigan:

"Michigan is a good school and I got a good education there, but the athletic department has ways to get borderline guys in, and when they're in, they steer them to courses in sports communications. They're adulated when they're playing, but when they get out, the people who adulated them won't hire them."

Another story I have about them is a kid who went to my alma mater out here in Socal. My buddies were friends with his h.s. coaches, and he was getting looked by a lot of schools. Kid was really good, but he was a knucklehead who didn't give two craps about school/education. In trouble a ton, never did any work, etc. But he was a stud and the dirty football coaches kept him eligible long enough to play football, then when it was basketball season he was always ineligible. And somehow, he got a full scholly, for Carr's last year, to friggin Michigan! We were all shocked, but that's how Michigan rolls. DickRod took over, and the kid even got to play vs. ND at Notre Dame in the monsoon, and caught 2 passes (I was at that game and I couldn't believe when I heard his name over the PA that he was eligible). But he transferred after the season (kid was a prick and NEVER had to practice even remotely hard in h.s., so it's no surprise that he couldn't hang with DickRod), with reports saying he was actually kicked off the team, and I haven't heard a thing from him since.

And finally, our very own Ethan Johnson said that when he took his visit to Michgan, he asked how many players were in their business school, and the only one was their friggin kicker LOL. He said right there and then that he knew he wasn't going to Michigan.

So yeah, Michigan offers their students a phenomenal education...but not their football players...

 

[Riddickulous]

It's not that...Michigan can offer a phenomenal education. But they steer their players towards the incredibly easy majors, and their admissions are far easier to pass than ND's. Dude, in 2007, they checked Michigan's media guide, and of the 30 players who had declared majors, 19 (62%!!!) of them majored in 'general studies'. Seriously???

When Jim Harbaugh was at Mich, he was told to switch his majoy from History to something easier, so he could concentrate on football. Here's what Harbaugh had to say about Michigan:



Another story I have about them is a kid who went to my alma mater out here in Socal. My buddies were friends with his h.s. coaches, and he was getting looked by a lot of schools. Kid was really good, but he was a knucklehead who didn't give two craps about school/education. In trouble a ton, never did any work, etc. But he was a stud and the dirty football coaches kept him eligible long enough to play football, then when it was basketball season he was always ineligible. And somehow, he got a full scholly, for Carr's last year, to friggin Michigan! We were all shocked, but that's how Michigan rolls. DickRod took over, and he even got to play vs. ND at ND in the monsoon, and caught 2 passes. But he transferred after the season (kid was a prick and NEVER had to practice even remotely hard in h.s., so it's no surprise that he couldn't hang with DickRod), with reports saying he was actually kicked off the team, and I haven't heard a thing from him since.

And finally, our very own Ethan Johnson said that when he took his visit to Michgan, he asked how many players were in their business school, and the only one was their friggin kicker LOL. He said right there and then that he knew he wasn't going to Michigan.

So yeah, Michigan offers their students a phenomenal education...but not their football players...

Zion Babb?

 

[Domina Nostra]

Stanford is #5, Duke is #9, Northwestern is #12, and Notre Dame is #19.

Stanford is the only one that I would concede is academically more prestigious.

Duke and Northwestern can't touch our alumni network, nor are their football programs remotely comparable.

Stanford is the only real competitor right now for kids who want both an elite education and BCS-caliber football. Knocking them down a few pegs would help tremendously for recruiting kids like Davis in the future.

Really? You think ND carries as much clout as Duke? I disagree, but-as you note-Duke and NW are not a threat right now, so its a moot point.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Really? You think ND carries as much clout as Duke? I disagree, but-as you note-Duke and NW are not a threat right now, so its a moot point.

This is of course a very subjective topic, but my experience has been that for academic cachet, Duke and Northwestern are more regional than Notre Dame. In other words, Notre Dame carries more water academically in a lot of places than those schools.

Stanford is the only school on that list that is academically more prestigious everywhere.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Zion Babb?

I'm not going to say the kid's name publicly, even if you are 100% correct.

 

[ThePiombino]

I'm not going to say the kid's name publicly, even if you are 100% correct.

How righteous! No one will ever figure it out...

Unless they have internet access and know how to type "G-O-O-G-L-E."

:awesomewo

This is of course a very subjective topic, but my experience has been that for academic cachet, Duke and Northwestern are more regional than Notre Dame. In other words, Notre Dame carries more water academically in a lot of places than those schools.

Stanford is the only school on that list that is academically more prestigious everywhere.

I want to believe this is is true, but I think academically that those schools have to be right up there. I think that some of us from time to time (myself included) tend to consider the football program when thinking of things like this. Thought, I couldn't speak for/against ND's alumni network personally, like some of you so perhaps I should just digress.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

What about Michigan’s vaunted receivers? I won't mention their names but you can figure out who the are. When they took the NFL IQ test that isn't an IQ test, and scored a 6 and 8 respectively, I remember when a sportscaster was trying to find the words to express their results, the expert that they had spoke up. He called them, "functional illiterates." And wasn't the beef with Desmond Howard that he wasn't smart enough to learn NFL offenses? And the beat goes on . . .

You need to be careful comparing Universities:

Obfuscating fact # 1: Northwestern has had as much football success as Notre Dame over the past 5 or 10 years, win/loss, (doesn't mean diddely.)

Different majors affect school ratings. The number of education and religious studies majors affect the starting salaries of ND grads (it would be an even higher #1), affect the number of grads gaining employment in field after graduation, and affect some areas of academic evaluation.

 

[nlroma1o]

Stanford is #5, Duke is #9, Northwestern is #12, and Notre Dame is #19.Stanford is the only one that I would concede is academically more prestigious.

Duke and Northwestern can't touch our alumni network, nor are their football programs remotely comparable.

Stanford is the only real competitor right now for kids who want both an elite education and BCS-caliber football. Knocking them down a few pegs would help tremendously for recruiting kids like Davis in the future.

Where are these rankings coming from?

 

[Old Man Mike]

Re: regional vs. international clout of the ND degree. There is no "science" to making a personal observation, but I will humbly submit that my own experience in academia has shown that the Notre Dame degree has higher cachet than anything but Ivys, Stanford, and places like Chicago, Johns Hopkins et al among the private schools, and equal with a handful of big state schools depending upon the major.

Michigan, by the way, has tremendous cachet in academe if any athlete would bother to avail themselves of it. Which, as LA points out, they don't usually. Most of the state schools with the big academic names are clustered in the "big ten", and then you add in a scatter of places like Berkeley. The way this is judged academically is by following where the big research grants tend to end up [NSF, NIH, NASA] and where the most-cited publications come from.

What LA has pointed out most poignantly, is that there is a huge gap of understanding [even on this board] of the difference between an academic powerhouse which maintains some standards for all its students, and an academic powerhouse which creates a "separate college" almost for its academically-challenged [usually= lazy and poorly trained in HS, rather than stupid] athletes, as they maintain their sideline football and basketball economic enterprises. WAY back, Rice had a separate "certificate" program that they got away with.

Notre Dame's unwillingness to abandon the whole person is generated from values embedded deeply in the school's mission. Other schools do not often have such values at the core of their pragmatic hearts, and like good "businessmen" cave to cash and power whenever convenient to do so. How places like Stanford, without a religious base, have fought the "modern world" off on this amazes me. But, kudos to them.

To return to the original thought: when "Notre Dame" has come up on a transcript for grad school acceptance or staff hiring, there is an immediate sense of confidence generated about the candidate on several levels.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Where are these rankings coming from?

U.S. News and World Report 2011 National University Rankings

 

[Sherm Sticky]

U.S. News and World Report 2011 National University Rankings

Yaaaaa UCONN in at a tie for 69! Not bad I'll take it!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I want to believe this is is true, but I think academically that those schools have to be right up there. I think that some of us from time to time (myself included) tend to consider the football program when thinking of things like this. Thought, I couldn't speak for/against ND's alumni network personally, like some of you so perhaps I should just digress.

I don't think they can ever be completely separated. As OMM pointed out, it's an inexact science, but comparing academic cachet comes down to this: when a potential employer see that you graduated from University X, are they impressed? Do they immediately associate University X with academic excellence?

Notre Dame's brand, which includes the football program, is much stronger than Northwestern and Duke's, which boosts its academic prestige relative to those institutions.

 

[nlroma1o]

U.S. News and World Report 2011 National University Rankings

Based on the top 50 i can see a lot of problems with this list. I would base it off of the princeton review list. Not trying to be a jerk.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Based on the top 50 i can see a lot of problems with this list. I would base it off of the princeton review list. Not trying to be a jerk.

Doesn't look like it's available online.

 

[nlroma1o]

Doesn't look like it's available online.

I think its avaible when it comes out each spring. But they may archive it after that. Not sure though. Sorry i dont have the answer. I just know this list has far too many state schools whose curiculum is no where near as demanding to be in the top 50 or 100.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think its avaible when it comes out each spring. But they may archive it after that. Not sure though. Sorry i dont have the answer. I just know this list has far too many state schools whose curiculum is no where near as demanding to be in the top 50 or 100.

For the purposes of this thread, the top 20-25 is all that really matters, and I'd be surprised if Princeton's looks significantly different. U.S. News' is dominated by the top private institutions every expects.

 

[nlroma1o]

For the purposes of this thread, the top 20-25 is all that really matters, and I'd be surprised if Princeton's looks significantly different. U.S. News' is dominated by the top private institutions every expects.

I want to say last year, I specifically remember ND being ranked higher than Northwestern and Stanford on the princeton list. Harvard wasnt even #1. It was some other super small liberal arts school in MA.

I guess i need to dig and find that damn list.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Whenever one is attempting a rating of a characteristic of anything which is phrased so as to include a complexity, one is into debating territory as to what the criteria were that such comparisons were made. [I know, duh-obvious, but somethings need to be said].

Which school is "better" than another begs the question: "In what sense?" which throws you into the criteria. [We make these same mistakes of assuming that we're talking about the same things all the time during these board arguments by the way --- rarely are people interested enough to actually define exactly what they're saying and why].

Academic excellence, institution-wide, is impossible to gauge even in some "statistically meaningful" way. So, when a ratings list comes out, we need to be able to read what the list of criteria were and whether all things were weighted equally, and then decide whether we buy their system.

Also, a hint for those in the pursuit of truth: it's best to read the criteria et al BEFORE looking at the ratings list. Otherwise you will do the "human" thing: if you like the ratings, you'll applaud and accept. If you don't like them, you'll assume the ratings are somehow bad. Emotions will trump whatever facts that there may be involved, and minds will stay closed and not evolve.

Cleverer people yet will dispute the inclusion or absence of criteria, or the relative weightings, and make their own system to discover their own "truth". I would like to pick the brains of the athlete rating services to see if they have any criteria at all for our favorite topic [recruits] and how they weight variables. Then we [the IE board] who are smarter than anyone [of course] could debate our own systems and do a better job rating players right here. [In our sloppy "organic" way that is what we do here anyway].

 

[Rhode Irish]

I want to say last year, I specifically remember ND being ranked higher than Northwestern and Stanford on the princeton list. Harvard wasnt even #1. It was some other super small liberal arts school in MA.

I guess i need to dig and find that damn list.

Probably Williams or something. I love the little Ivies. If I were to do college over again, I would have either done a little ivy or a big school with football. That'll teach me to uphold a family tradition while pursuing my athletic dreams...

 

[Irish To The Core]

The university rankings are all flawed in some fashion. It all depends on how different criteria are weighted and measured. For example if research trumps classroom quality, Notre Dame will fall behind schools like Stanford.

What is important to student athletes is the value and quality of their degree. (and of course the quality of the football program) A degree from Stanford has at least equal cachet to the same degree at Notre Dame, but I don't think Duke or Northwestern degrees do.

I think players look at:
Reputation: Notre Dame and Stanford are both outstanding
Support: Notre Dame offers unmatched academic support for players.
Atmosphere: All four of these institutions close the door to the riff-raffs and thugs who populate the locker rooms at big state schools.
Success: Notre Dame players graduate more than any other school...Stanford, etc. very high but ND beats them.
Connections: Notre Dame degrees open doors all over the country. Stanford is very similar, possibly opening more doors internationally. Duke and Northwestern graduates are well respected but are not part of the national subway alumni.

If all else is equal, a Notre Dame bachelor's is hard to beat. A Stanford degree is equally attractive and perhaps even more valuable in some circumstances (depending on what the student's future plans hold), but in terms of the student athlete, Notre Dame takes a back seat to no one.