Mauk vs. Kiel

[rtrn2glory]

thanks for the update sir.

 

[NCDomer]

#1 QBs overtaking more senior competition happens far more often than led on here. The more recent #1 QBs play their first year. Grooming much more than a year seems like a thing of the past unless you have another #1 QB on your roster. Regardless, drawing conclusions on this small sample size isn't going to be very precise for various situations of teams and player desires. Here's a look at history:

2010
Jake Heaps - Completely took over the starting spot by the 3rd game for BYU. He beat out Riley Nelson (a transfer from Utah State after a mission; originally NR for the 2006 class, but was Utah's Mr. Football and a Parade All-American) during the season and James Lark (#16 QB in 2006 class, which is the same one as Max Hall; note Lark took a mission).

2009
Matt Barkley. We know the story there, so I won't rehash it.

2008
Tyrelle Pryor - eventually started freshman year beating out Joe Bauserman (#55 QB in 2004 class) and Todd Boeckman (#28 QB in 2003 class). The #13 QB of the 2006 class (Antonio Henton) transferred in 2008 expecting Pryor to overtake him along with some legal trouble regarding prostitution.

2007
Jimmy Clausen. We know how that went.

2006
Mitch Mustain. Played off and on as a freshman, transferred to USC, and never really took over the starting job from more recent #1 QB, Barkley.

2005
Mark Sanchez. Redshirted in 2006, backed up John David Booty (#1 QB in 2003 class) in 2007, won the starting job over Mustain in 2008 and the Jets drafted him.

2004
Rhett Bomar. Became started by the 2nd game his freshman year beating out Paul Thompson (#8 Athlete/#31 QB in 2002 class). In 2006, OU dismissed him from the team for being paid by a donor (at least that's what wiki says). Eventually, the Giants drafted him.

2003
John David Booty. Backed up Leinart for 3 years before starting in 2006 as a redshirt Jr. SI had Leinart as the #7 QB for the 2001 class.

2002
Vince Young. Redshirted, then took over the starting spot midway through his second year. He relieved Chance Mock, who from what I can find was the #3 QB for his class.

 

[Irish2015]

So basically they seem to pan out just fine?

 

[woolybug25]

#1 QBs overtaking more senior competition happens far more often than led on here.

Actually, several of us have made your same point with similar examples, to no avail. If you read through the Maty vs Kiel thread, you will find this debate discussed in depth. Some still feel, despite historical precedent, that Golson/Hendrix would not be passed by any QB in this class. If that is what they believe, thats ok, it just shows the type of confidence people have in out QB depth right now. Which is a welcomed change.

 

[jmurphy75]

#1 QBs overtaking more senior competition happens far more often than led on here. The more recent #1 QBs play their first year. Grooming much more than a year seems like a thing of the past unless you have another #1 QB on your roster. Regardless, drawing conclusions on this small sample size isn't going to be very precise for various situations of teams and player desires. Here's a look at history:

2010
Jake Heaps - Completely took over the starting spot by the 3rd game for BYU. He beat out Riley Nelson (a transfer from Utah State after a mission; originally NR for the 2006 class, but was Utah's Mr. Football and a Parade All-American) during the season and James Lark (#16 QB in 2006 class, which is the same one as Max Hall; note Lark took a mission).

2009
Matt Barkley. We know the story there, so I won't rehash it.

2008
Tyrelle Pryor - eventually started freshman year beating out Joe Bauserman (#55 QB in 2004 class) and Todd Boeckman (#28 QB in 2003 class). The #13 QB of the 2006 class (Antonio Henton) transferred in 2008 expecting Pryor to overtake him along with some legal trouble regarding prostitution.

2007
Jimmy Clausen. We know how that went.

2006
Mitch Mustain. Played off and on as a freshman, transferred to USC, and never really took over the starting job from more recent #1 QB, Barkley.

2005
Mark Sanchez. Redshirted in 2006, backed up John David Booty (#1 QB in 2003 class) in 2007, won the starting job over Mustain in 2008 and the Jets drafted him.

2004
Rhett Bomar. Became started by the 2nd game his freshman year beating out Paul Thompson (#8 Athlete/#31 QB in 2002 class). In 2006, OU dismissed him from the team for being paid by a donor (at least that's what wiki says). Eventually, the Giants drafted him.

2003
John David Booty. Backed up Leinart for 3 years before starting in 2006 as a redshirt Jr. SI had Leinart as the #7 QB for the 2001 class.

2002
Vince Young. Redshirted, then took over the starting spot midway through his second year. He relieved Chance Mock, who from what I can find was the #3 QB for his class.

But how did the teams that they led do?

 

[NDinL.A.]

#1 QBs overtaking more senior competition happens far more often than led on here.

Actually, several of us have made your same point with similar examples, to no avail. If you read through the Maty vs Kiel thread, you will find this debate discussed in depth. Some still feel, despite historical precedent, that Golson/Hendrix would not be passed by any QB in this class. If that is what they believe, thats ok, it just shows the type of confidence people have in out QB depth right now. Which is a welcomed change.

It's not to no avail. You're arguing with yourselves on that one. We all admit it can be done. My whole point is that I HOPE he doesn't pass them early, because most of those teams either did poorly or the QBs did poorly but their defense or other superstar players bailed them out (andwe need to see our defense do better for longer than 4 games to be compared to OSU).

Like I said earlier, look at how those #1 QBs did:

2010
Jake Heaps - The team sucked last year. He'll be a player for them, you want to go through games like he had vs. Utah St where the team got smashed and he played like a h.s. QB? That's what you get with a true freshman QB. And before you answer it's worth it, try being a mod on this site after losses to Tulsa. NONE OF YOU GUYS ARE PATIENT (LOL).

2009
Matt Barkley. SC fans are split on him, and almost all of them wish he had sat at least a year learning the system and learning that INTs are not OK. You saw what he did last year without a dominant defense. 5 losses.

2008
Tyrelle Pryor - An example of a guy with a great defense, great running game, and a conservative coach/offense bailing him out. Keep in mind that he and Kiel cannot be compared b/c Kiel won't make the type of plays Terrelle did with his legs. Kiel will need to read defenses and make adjustments, something Terrelle didn't have to do. Pryor also threw the ball 14, 11, 10, 11 times a ball game. The ONE time he had to throw the ball 25 times, OSU lost to Penn St and they scored 6 points. Sorry, we don't have the running game to have our QB throw the ball 11 times and win against any decent team.

2007
Jimmy Clausen. We know how that went. (Nothing more to add.)

2006
Mitch Mustain. See: Wildcat. See: Felix Jones and Darren McFadden. He had to throw the ball more than 20 times just twice. Once in a win vs. Vandy (does that even count), and once against Bama (bad Bama, not Saban Bama), where he went 7 for 22. He eventually lost his job and found himself 3rd string at SC behind a guy who transferred to Richmond and a true freshman.

2005
Mark Sanchez - Didn't win the job until his 4th (!!!) yr in the program, where he promptly led the team to a Rose Bowl win and a 12-1 season. Kinda makes the argument for me.

2004
Rhett Bomar. Threw for 10 TDs and 10 INTs. The team lost 4 games he played in (8-4); eventually transferred to Sam Houston St where even there he wasn't some superstar.

2003
John David Booty. Again, didn't start until his 4th year. Also makes my point for me.

2002
Vince Young. A true beast. But even as a redshirt freshman, he threw for 6 TDs and 7 INTs. In his 3rd year of college football, he threw for for 12 Tds and 11 INTs, and his team went 12-1. However, Kiel doesn't run like Young (few do) and we certainly don't have the athletes TX had.


* I'm glad I had the time to do this. Again, I'm not saying that Kiel can't beat those guys out...I'm saying I DON'T WANT HIM TO TOO EARLY, because then most likely our team will struggle and our QB will most definitely struggle. Look at the list - I don't see how that can be denied. But if they sit and wait, like the SC QBs did, then success is far more likely.

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

Mustain quarterbacked one of USC's losses last year, and overall Barkley played splendidly for a sophomore. There's no way that he can be used for the "should have sat" argument.

I think there are definite growing pains that a young quarterback will go through which very few of ours fans will want to endure again like a young Quinn or Clausen, but no one is advocating for Kiel to play as early as those two were forced to. He'll certainly sit at least one year.

 

[woolybug25]

Like I said earlier, look at how those #1 QBs did:

2010
Jake Heaps - The team sucked last year. He'll be a player for them, you want to go through games like he had vs. Utah St where the team got smashed and he played like a h.s. QB? That's what you get with a true freshman QB. And before you answer it's worth it, try being a mod on this site after losses to Tulsa. NONE OF YOU GUYS ARE PATIENT (LOL).

2009
Matt Barkley. SC fans are split on him, and almost all of them wish he had sat at least a year learning the system and learning that INTs are not OK. You saw what he did last year without a dominant defense. 5 losses.

2008
Tyrelle Pryor - An example of a guy with a great defense, great running game, and a conservative coach/offense bailing him out. Keep in mind that he and Kiel cannot be compared b/c Kiel won't make the type of plays Terrelle did with his legs. Kiel will need to read defenses and make adjustments, something Terrelle didn't have to do. Pryor also threw the ball 14, 11, 10, 11 times a ball game. The ONE time he had to throw the ball 25 times, OSU lost to Penn St and they scored 6 points. Sorry, we don't have the running game to have our QB throw the ball 11 times and win against any decent team.

2007
Jimmy Clausen. We know how that went. (Nothing more to add.)

2006
Mitch Mustain. See: Wildcat. See: Felix Jones and Darren McFadden. He had to throw the ball more than 20 times just twice. Once in a win vs. Vandy (does that even count), and once against Bama (bad Bama, not Saban Bama), where he went 7 for 22. He eventually lost his job and found himself 3rd string at SC behind a guy who transferred to Richmond and a true freshman.

2005
Mark Sanchez - Didn't win the job until his 4th (!!!) yr in the program, where he promptly led the team to a Rose Bowl win and a 12-1 season. Kinda makes the argument for me.

2004
Rhett Bomar. Threw for 10 TDs and 10 INTs. The team lost 4 games he played in (8-4); eventually transferred to Sam Houston St where even there he wasn't some superstar.

2003
John David Booty. Again, didn't start until his 4th year. Also makes my point for me.

2002
Vince Young. A true beast. But even as a redshirt freshman, he threw for 6 TDs and 7 INTs. In his 3rd year of college football, he threw for for 12 Tds and 11 INTs, and his team went 12-1. However, Kiel doesn't run like Young (few do) and we certainly don't have the athletes TX had.


* I'm glad I had the time to do this. Again, I'm not saying that Kiel can't beat those guys out...I'm saying I DON'T WANT HIM TO TOO EARLY, because then most likely our team will struggle and our QB will most definitely struggle. Look at the list - I don't see how that can be denied. But if they sit and wait, like the SC QBs did, then success is far more likely.

Heaps - Their problems have little to do with Heaps, and as you said, it is too early to call this one.

Barkley - Should have sat and learned under whom? Mustain? Corp? USC had to go with an unproven QB no matter what, and I dont know who you talk to, because I think most pundits have Barkley as one of the top 10 QB's in the country. He has won a bowl game and won the Manning Award as a freshman. We would take that all day at Notre Dame.

Pryor - It is asinine to say their presumable success cannot be compared because they play a different styles. Isn't OSU's model of tough defense and strong running game exactly what everyone is calling for from Kelly? I think you want to disregard this one simply because Pryor's success is simply unarguable. He has had a great career to date, complete with big wins/performances.

Mustain - Hasn't had success, but sits behind a successful former #1 QB recruit in Barkley.

Clausen -Jimmy broke every passing record ND has, and I dont think I am alone when I say, that his teams had a lot more reasons than his performance to blame for their lack of success. Jimmy was as advertised.

Sanchez - You fail to mention that he sat for 3 years under a former #1 QB recruit in Leinart, whom started from his RS Sophore season (he had to sit under Palmer, another #1 QB recruit) and played for three seasons. Leinart went on to win 2 National Championships and the Heisman.

Bomar - His off the field issues played the biggest part in his downfall, not his on the field.

JD Booty - Was beat out by #1 QB recruit Sanchez, whom sat for 3 years under a former #1 QB recruit in Leinart, whom started from his RS Sophore season (he had to sit under Palmer, another #1 QB recruit) and played for three seasons. Leinart went on to win 2 National Championships and the Heisman.

Vince Young - The epitome of not proving your point. Total stud who went to a program lacking weaknesses. I think Kiel would be coming to ND at a time where we are more complete than any time in the last decade. This situation is most similar to Kiel's. (I am not saying that Kiel plays like Young nor will have the same career)

Just some perspective.

 

[jmurphy75]

#1 QBs overtaking more senior competition happens far more often than led on here.

It's not to no avail. You're arguing with yourselves on that one. We all admit it can be done. My whole point is that I HOPE he doesn't pass them early, because most of those teams either did poorly or the QBs did poorly but their defense or other superstar players bailed them out (andwe need to see our defense do better for longer than 4 games to be compared to OSU).

Like I said earlier, look at how those #1 QBs did:

2010
Jake Heaps - The team sucked last year. He'll be a player for them, you want to go through games like he had vs. Utah St where the team got smashed and he played like a h.s. QB? That's what you get with a true freshman QB. And before you answer it's worth it, try being a mod on this site after losses to Tulsa. NONE OF YOU GUYS ARE PATIENT (LOL).

2009
Matt Barkley. SC fans are split on him, and almost all of them wish he had sat at least a year learning the system and learning that INTs are not OK. You saw what he did last year without a dominant defense. 5 losses.

2008
Tyrelle Pryor - An example of a guy with a great defense, great running game, and a conservative coach/offense bailing him out. Keep in mind that he and Kiel cannot be compared b/c Kiel won't make the type of plays Terrelle did with his legs. Kiel will need to read defenses and make adjustments, something Terrelle didn't have to do. Pryor also threw the ball 14, 11, 10, 11 times a ball game. The ONE time he had to throw the ball 25 times, OSU lost to Penn St and they scored 6 points. Sorry, we don't have the running game to have our QB throw the ball 11 times and win against any decent team.

2007
Jimmy Clausen. We know how that went. (Nothing more to add.)

2006
Mitch Mustain. See: Wildcat. See: Felix Jones and Darren McFadden. He had to throw the ball more than 20 times just twice. Once in a win vs. Vandy (does that even count), and once against Bama (bad Bama, not Saban Bama), where he went 7 for 22. He eventually lost his job and found himself 3rd string at SC behind a guy who transferred to Richmond and a true freshman.

2005
Mark Sanchez - Didn't win the job until his 4th (!!!) yr in the program, where he promptly led the team to a Rose Bowl win and a 12-1 season. Kinda makes the argument for me.

2004
Rhett Bomar. Threw for 10 TDs and 10 INTs. The team lost 4 games he played in (8-4); eventually transferred to Sam Houston St where even there he wasn't some superstar.

2003
John David Booty. Again, didn't start until his 4th year. Also makes my point for me.

2002
Vince Young. A true beast. But even as a redshirt freshman, he threw for 6 TDs and 7 INTs. In his 3rd year of college football, he threw for for 12 Tds and 11 INTs, and his team went 12-1. However, Kiel doesn't run like Young (few do) and we certainly don't have the athletes TX had.


* I'm glad I had the time to do this. Again, I'm not saying that Kiel can't beat those guys out...I'm saying I DON'T WANT HIM TO TOO EARLY, because then most likely our team will struggle and our QB will most definitely struggle. Look at the list - I don't see how that can be denied. But if they sit and wait, like the SC QBs did, then success is far more likely.

Exactly where I was going with my previous post, most times a young QB is played over a seasoned started it is due to necessity and the team has done poorly and has little choice

 

[NDinL.A.]

Heaps - Their problems have little to do with Heaps, and as you said, it is too early to call this one.

Barkley - Should have sat and learned under whom? Mustain? Corp? USC had to go with an unproven QB no matter what, and I dont know who you talk to, because I think most pundits have Barkley as one of the top 10 QB's in the country. He has won a bowl game and won the Manning Award as a freshman. We would take that all day at Notre Dame.

Sorry man, I follow USC closer than anyone here (sadly). Barkley has USC fans completely split. His INTs KILL them. And Mirer, Barkley did not play "splendidly" last year. He had splendid moments, but USC people overall were disappointed with his performance, considering what they expected from the overall #1 QB. I saw every one of his games, and he left a lot of points on the board.

And many SC people thought Corp won that job out of spring AND out of camp, EVEN PETE CARROLL gave him the job reluctantly, but then Corp got hurt, Barkley took over as a giddy Pete Carroll happily gave him the job even when Corp got back. This infuriated many SC fans, as Barkley could do no wrong as he and Pete Carroll repeatedly shrugged off his multiple INTs. This attitude toward INTs continues to frustrate SC fans to no end.

Oh, and Mustain, as a former #1 QB, according to your theory, would automatically beat out lower rated Corp and younger Barkley, because that's what all #1 QBs do. Instead, he was #3 on the depth chart.

Pryor - It is asinine to say their presumable success cannot be compared because they play a different styles. Isn't OSU's model of tough defense and strong running game exactly what everyone is calling for from Kelly? I think you want to disregard this one simply because Pryor's success is simply unarguable. He has had a great career to date, complete with big wins/performances.

Nope, not everyone is calling for that - or else we wouldn't be begging for a talent like Kiel to come. But that's neither here nor there. Do you honestly think we can compare ND's talent to OSU's Pryor's freshman year? Seriously? And do you honestly think that Kiel can make plays with his legs like Pryor has had to do? The point is that THROWING QBs struggle when they are young, and they struggle mightily. Pryor NEVER had to throw the ball more than what, 15 times? And when he did, they scored 6 points! That is undeniable. ND does not have the talent yet to beat any good team throwing the ball 11 times. Sorry bro, that is truth.

Mustain - Hasn't had success, but sits behind a successful former #1 QB recruit in Barkley.

5 years in college and he sucked. He's gone. And no, he sat behind Corp also, who was not the #1 QB. And he failed, as a 5th year senior, miserably at home and lost to an unheralded true freshman who gave SC 4 turnovers.

Clausen -Jimmy broke every passing record ND has, and I dont think I am alone when I say, that his teams had a lot more reasons than his performance to blame for their lack of success. Jimmy was as advertised.

So, for the record, you are willing to go through 3-9 seasons and 6-6 seasons in order to get a stellar jr season and passing records??? The issue isn't that #1 QBs don't pan out, it's that they DON'T DO WELL EARLY for the most part. I'm as big of a Jimmy supporter as you'll ever meet, and yes, there were factors to why ND sucked, but the bottom line is that he wasn't anywhere near ready to lead a team as a freshman, both physically and mentally. That cannot be denied.

Sanchez - You fail to mention that he sat for 3 years under a former #1 QB recruit in Leinart, whom started from his RS Sophore season (he had to sit under Palmer, another #1 QB recruit) and played for three seasons. Leinart went on to win 2 National Championships and the Heisman.

Actually, you make my point for me. Leinart wasn't the number one QB recruit, yet Sanchez was and he STILL sat behind him and then Booty. Booty couldn't beat out Leinart, Sanchez couldn't beat out Booty. Those guys sat and watched and learned, as did Leinart, and they ALL went on to huge success. The USC model is exactly what I want from ND. I'm weird in that I'd want ND to go to 7 straight BCS games instead of having off years while we wait for our QBs to mature.

Bomar - His off the field issues played the biggest part in his downfall, not his on the field.

Really? Because he wasn't all-world at Sam Houston St either. And OK lost 4 games in games that he played in as a freshman. Are you willing to go through 4 regular season losses in order to get a QB seasoned? If you are cool with that, then we're done here, we have different philosophies and it's all good.

JD Booty - Was beat out by #1 QB recruit Sanchez, whom sat for 3 years under a former #1 QB recruit in Leinart, whom started from his RS Sophore season (he had to sit under Palmer, another #1 QB recruit) and played for three seasons. Leinart went on to win 2 National Championships and the Heisman.

OK, now you're just making sh!t up and/or lying. Booty WAS NEVER BEATEN OUT BY SANCHEZ. Sanchez only started when Booty got hurt. When Booty returned, Sanchez returned to the bench. And when Booty was out, Sanchez threw a crippling pick vs Oregon that he attributed to youth that USC fans will tell you to this day cost them a shot at a NC. Not all your #1 QBs beat out the incumbents. Like I said earlier, SC did it the right way. 7 straight BCS games (6-1) bears that out. And it KILLS me to say that.

Vince Young - The epitome of not proving your point. Total stud who went to a program lacking weaknesses. I think Kiel would be coming to ND at a time where we are more complete than any time in the last decade. This situation is most similar to Kiel's. (I am not saying that Kiel plays like Young nor will have the same career)

Well, we certainly do not lack weaknesses like those TX teams. Not even close. For you to compare our current ND team to that TX team where they could win all those games while Vince Young threw for 6 TDs and 7 INTs is completely ridiculous. Yes, we'll be more complete, but do you honestly think that we'll be so dominant that Kiel could come in and throw 6 TDs and 7 INTs and we'll still go 11-2???? Seriously?

*** Again, my whole point is that I don't want Kiel to come in and win the starting job his first year or 2 over talented guys 3-4 years into the system. If he does, just be prepared to watch him struggle and most likely watch the team struggle. It's not for certain, but the numbers certainly point in that direction overwhelmingly. Citing 2 QBs (out of 10) who struggled throwing the ball mightily and whose legs are unquestionably 1000 percent better than Kiel's and whose teams had undoubtedly more talent as a reason Kiel would be fine starting early does not make a strong argument.

 

[woolybug25]

Exactly where I was going with my previous post, most times a young QB is played over a seasoned started it is due to necessity and the team has done poorly and has little choice

So Vince Young taking over for Chance Mock, Barkley beating out two highly recruited QBs, Pryor beating out a seasoned veteran in Todd Boeckman and Carson Palmer beating out an upperclassmen to become only the second freshman starter in USC history (before Barkley) were all exceptions?

I'm not saying that there havent been #1 QB's that struggkled when they started early, but those players also played on bad teams that lacked talent at several positions. #1 QB's that have started early on good teams, have done very well (ie Barkley, Pryor, Young, Palmer). I would argue that Kiel would be stepping onto the field with a very good Notre Dame team that would not depend on him to be the star.

 

[IrishLax]

This thread is really starting to get circular...........

 

[woolybug25]

NDinLA - My whole point is that #1 QB's struggles arent because of when they become the starter, it is in relation to how good their team is, just like any other position. But you are going to just make argument to make it, so I am fine with just letting you have your opinion and i'll have mine. You just continue to go in circles on this.

Under your mindset, we should pass on Marshall, because god forbid, he may start early.... and we know how young #1 rbs fair (another misnomer).

btw... I know that you are the resident USC researcher and all..but...

Leinart wasn't the number one QB recruit,

yes he was...

Scout.com: Matt Leinart Profile

 

[NDinL.A.]

So Vince Young taking over for Chance Mock, Barkley beating out two highly recruited QBs, Pryor beating out a seasoned veteran in Todd Boeckman and Carson Palmer beating out an upperclassmen to become only the second freshman starter in USC history (before Barkley) were all exceptions?

I'm not saying that there havent been #1 QB's that struggkled when they started early, but those players also played on bad teams that lacked talent at several positions. #1 QB's that have started early on good teams, have done very well (ie Barkley, Pryor, Young, Palmer). I would argue that Kiel would be stepping onto the field with a very good Notre Dame team that would not depend on him to be the star.

USC lost 4 games that year! They went from 7 straight BCS games to the Emerald Bowl. That's good??? And Carson Palmer SUCKED until his senior year. So you're saying you're good with a QB having 3 TD's and 3 INTs as a freshman, 16 Td's and 18 INTs (53% comp) as a soph, and 13 TD's and 12 INTs as a junior??? Oh, and USC went 6-6, 5-7, and 6-6 those years. I ask once again...are you willing to wait those awful years out in order to get an incredible year?

So in essence, out of 10 QBs mentioned, TWO went on to start very young and their teams did as well or better than the previous year. 20%. And those 2 QBs could make plays with their legs that few in this sport have ever been able to do. Kiel isn;t that type of QB. I'll take my chances on the 80%.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

who would you rather have starting the 2013 season.. Rees as a JR, Hendrix as a redshirt SO, Golson as a redshirt FR, or Kiel as a true FR? As I'm typing that I honestly can't decide.. I'll take Golson though and live with his absolutely stupid God given athletic ability..

now, if Kiel is an EE, my answer may change.. give the guy a full 6 month advantage on being a "True-true" freshman and he may pick up the offense.. but, on the other hand, with no MF to bail him out of some possible errant throws, I'll still take Golson and his escapability.. I'm a huge Golson guy I guess, I wanna see BK drink the Golson koolaid in 2013..

honestly wouldn't mind if we missed on EITHER Kiel or Mauk and took this Morin guy.. too many stud QBs may cause some uneasiness and possible transfers.. someone has to be given the ropes and be "the guy" and Idk if you ever have that when you have 3 stud QBs (Hendrix, Golson, *Kiel*) if Kiel comes here because their job would never be safe.. you have to have some sense of security to make a mistake and know your season/career won't be over.. can't perform to the best of your abilities if you're constantly scared

 

[woolybug25]

USC lost 4 games that year! They went from 7 straight BCS games to the Emerald Bowl. That's good??? And Carson Palmer SUCKED until his senior year. So you're saying you're good with a QB having 3 TD's and 3 INTs as a freshman, 16 Td's and 18 INTs (53% comp) as a soph, and 13 TD's and 12 INTs as a junior??? Oh, and USC went 6-6, 5-7, and 6-6 those years. I ask once again...are you willing to wait those awful years out in order to get an incredible year?

So in essence, out of 10 QBs mentioned, TWO went on to start very young and their teams did as well or better than the previous year. 20%. And those 2 QBs could make plays with their legs that few in this sport have ever been able to do. Kiel isn;t that type of QB. I'll take my chances on the 80%.

How convenient for you to leave out that the two that did well were on good teams, just like Kiel would be stepping onto. My point that this is a team sport and the young QB's that struggle shouldnt take the full blame still stands. We wouldn't have to go through your imaginary 6-6 season because the Kiel led team would be filled with star players, just like the 2 QB's that were successful by your all-mighty measures.

I am not going to continue saying the same things over and over to you if it is simply going to be ignored. I have been very cordial in this argument and will continue to be. I have no interest in getting into a heated internet fight with a moderator.

 

[NDinL.A.]

How convenient for you to leave out that the two that did well were on good teams, just like Kiel would be stepping onto. My point that this is a team sport and the young QB's that struggle shouldnt take the full blame still stands. We wouldn't have to go through your imaginary 6-6 season because the Kiel led team would be filled with star players, just like the 2 QB's that were successful by your all-mighty measures.

I am not going to continue saying the same things over and over to you if it is simply going to be ignored. I have been very cordial in this argument and will continue to be. I have no interest in getting into a heated internet fight with a moderator.

It's not heated, at least not for me. And I'm not ignoring anything. I've stated that those 2 QBs' teams did very well.

You're the one ignoring facts. That's on you. You bring up all these QBs to prove your point, and then when it shows how poorly they played or how poorly their team played, you say that it can't be put all on them. Well of course it can't. But the fact is that they struggled at the most important position on the field and it severely handicapped their team. Is that what you want for ND?

I honestly don't see how you can still go with your point, despite the overwhelming evidence against it. Yes, they'll be given a chance to compete and may even win the job. But if they do, the overwhelming evidence says that they will struggle early and their teams will as well.

And I still can't believe you're arguing that ND, coming off an 8-5 season and losses to teams like Tulsa and Navy, is capable of going 11-2 and a BCS bowl with a QB who will never throw the ball more than 20 times or will have a 6 TD-7 INT ratio like VY did. We're not that good. If we have great QB play, yes, we could do that. But not with a young QB going through growing pains. Sorry, no way.

 

[woolybug25]

It's not heated, at least not for me. And I'm not ignoring anything. I've stated that those 2 QBs' teams did very well.

You're the one ignoring facts. That's on you. You bring up all these QBs to prove your point, and then when it shows how poorly they played or how poorly their team played, you say that it can't be put all on them. Well of course it can't. But the fact is that they struggled at the most important position on the field and it severely handicapped their team. Is that what you want for ND?

I honestly don't see how you can still go with your point, despite the overwhelming evidence against it. Yes, they'll be given a chance to compete and may even win the job. But if they do, the overwhelming evidence says that they will struggle early and their teams will as well.

And I still can't believe you're arguing that ND, coming off an 8-5 season and losses to teams like Tulsa and Navy, is capable of going 11-2 and a BCS bowl with a QB who will never throw the ball more than 20 times or will have a 6 TD-7 INT ratio like VY did. We're not that good. If we have great QB play, yes, we could do that. But not with a young QB going through growing pains. Sorry, no way.

First I said that #1 QB's start early. You disagreed and eventually just went with an opinion that you didn't want him too, because they only start early if there arent any other good QB's.

So then I showed you that most of them beat out higher rated kids than Hendrix/Golson. I showed you that the ones that were on good teams were good enough to win. But you ignore this and continue to say that they dont. Using records of the ones that werent on good teams as your example.

Then you claim that I want Kiel to start even if it means we suddenly become a 6-6 team, claiming that because we had bad losses this year, it would be impossible for us to be a bcs team next year with Kiel. News flash... Kiel wont even be in school next year and I have clearly expressed that I dont think that he would be a full time starter as a frosh. Are you saying that you dont think we will have a loaded team three seasons from now? If so, then we might as well start over with a #1 QB recruit.

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

Barkley played splendidly for a SOPHOMORE, which is what I said. That isn't arguable, and I don't care what some delusional USC fans in Los Angeles think, because everywhere I read on the internet they are absolutely infatuated with the kid. He threw over twice as many touchdowns as interceptions, completed 63% of his passes for a 141 QB rating. There's a reason why he's already being named a short list Heisman candidate and a top ten pick for next season. It pains me to defend a Trojan signal caller like I am, but Barkley is more talented than any of the quarterbacks who came before him at USC; he just happened to enroll at the worst time possible for the program.

However, this is completely pointless. The argument wasn't about how their teams performed; it was whether the top ranked quarterbacks consistently pass veteran talent on the depth chart, which they clearly do thanks to the research of one of the earlier posters. Kiel has a good shot of starting over Hendrix and Golson based on historical precedent should he choose to commit here, and that's all we're saying. If he's the best quarterback on the roster, then he deserves the spot; it not, then he sits and learns. End of story.

Oh, and Booty was like 17 when he arrived on campus... of course he wasn't going to start from the beginning. Unfortunately for him, Leinart proved to be much better than advertised.

 

[NDinL.A.]

First I said that #1 QB's start early. You disagreed and eventually just went with an opinion that you didn't want him too, because they only start early if there arent any other good QB's.

So then I showed you that most of them beat out higher rated kids than Hendrix/Golson. I showed you that the ones that were on good teams were good enough to win. But you ignore this and continue to say that they dont. Using records of the ones that werent on good teams as your example.

Then you claim that I want Kiel to start even if it means we suddenly become a 6-6 team, claiming that because we had bad losses this year, it would be impossible for us to be a bcs team next year with Kiel. News flash... Kiel wont even be in school next year and I have clearly expressed that I dont think that he would be a full time starter as a frosh. Are you saying that you dont think we will have a loaded team three seasons from now? If so, then we might as well start over with a #1 QB recruit.

1. That was already hashed out.

2. Are you saying USC wasn't a good team? Seriously? They went to 7 straight BCS games, perhaps the greatest run in the modern era. Barkley's freshman year they lost 4 games, breaking that streak. Oklahoma wasn't good? They had won a NC a couple of years earlier. They lost 4 games also under under their young QB. And as for VY and Pryor, you keep ignoring that they both struggled MIGHTILY throwing the ball but could make plays with their legs few have ever been able to make. Kiel simply isn't that type of athlete, not even close.

3. I used next year in haste. I obviously meant his first year, or even his 2nd year. And I keep saying that ND will be very good - but not good enough to have a QB with a bad TD-INT ratio who can't run like VY to make a BCS game. No way in hell. I'll say it again - we'll be very good, but we'll need good to great QB play to be at that level, like almost every program in the nation.

And if Kiel is in his 3rd year, I'm completely fine with him starting. I've never argued against that.

 

[Ironman8]

This thread is really starting to get circular...........

Starting?

 

[woolybug25]

1. That was already hashed out.

2. Are you saying USC wasn't a good team? Seriously? They went to 7 straight BCS games, perhaps the greatest run in the modern era. Barkley's freshman year they lost 4 games, breaking that streak. Oklahoma wasn't good? They had won a NC a couple of years earlier. They lost 4 games also under under their young QB. And as for VY and Pryor, you keep ignoring that they both struggled MIGHTILY throwing the ball but could make plays with their legs few have ever been able to make. Kiel simply isn't that type of athlete, not even close.

3. I used next year in haste. I obviously meant his first year, or even his 2nd year. And I keep saying that ND will be very good - but not good enough to have a QB with a bad TD-INT ratio who can't run like VY to make a BCS game. No way in hell. I'll say it again - we'll be very good, but we'll need good to great QB play to be at that level, like almost every program in the nation.

And if Kiel is in his 3rd year, I'm completely fine with him starting. I've never argued against that.

1) Just pointing it out.

2) Those teams won titles before... key word, before... they got the young QB's in question. All of those teams lost considerable amounts of talent to the NFL and would have been equal or worse without their young starting QB's. As far as the Pryor/VY comment, I dont give a rats tit what their stat lines were, fact is, they won.

3) Either way, your comment didnt make sense. I disagree that we need a GREAT QB to play at an elite level three seasons from now, we need one that doesn't make mistakes, we will have A LOT of playmakers on both offense and defense. I also think that you are under-rating Kiel's running ability, go look at his tape again. Kiel might not run like VY, but many recruitnik sites have said he runs like Tebow. If I remember correctly, Tebow did pretty well for himself with his feet.

Final note - you still have your math mixed up, I didn't say that I thought Kiel would start his third year, I said he would start in three years. 1) This year, he is in HS. 2) Redshirt. 3) Game on.

 

[GEORGIA DOMER]

"RATS TIT" LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[NDinL.A.]

1) Just pointing it out.

1. Pointless at this point in the discussion.

2) Those teams won titles before... key word, before... they got the young QB's in question. All of those teams lost considerable amounts of talent to the NFL and would have been equal or worse without their young starting QB's. As far as the Pryor/VY comment, I dont give a rats tit what their stat lines were, fact is, they won.

2. WTF??? How in the world do you know they would have done equal or worse than what they would have done with their young QBs???? That's beyond presumptive and now you're just grabbing at things in the wind just to try and prove your point. Fail. Also, do you really want to go and look at those rosters and see how many pros were still on their rosters? How many guys and those NC rosters went pro and how many were left over? How many from those talented teams led by inexperienced QBs made the pros? That Oklahoma team was LOADED with pro talent, including many on the defensive side of the ball. Same with USC.

And how did VY and Pryor win? By not throwing the ball at all and using their legs. Kiel isn't even close to being those guys.

3) Either way, your comment didnt make sense. I disagree that we need a GREAT QB to play at an elite level three seasons from now, we need one that doesn't make mistakes, we will have A LOT of playmakers on both offense and defense. I also think that you are under-rating Kiel's running ability, go look at his tape again. Kiel might not run like VY, but many recruitnik sites have said he runs like Tebow. If I remember correctly, Tebow did pretty well for himself with his feet.

3. Again, WTF? What didn't make sense and how? I never said we need a great QB, I said we need good to great QB play to win. You counter with we need a QB that just doesn't make mistakes - and then you want to go with the one with no experience???? Dude, that's what young QB's do - MAKE MISTAKES! And now you want to start a kid that has never started a game to take over a team primed for a NC run, over very talented guys who have much more experience in the system??? Do you see where your logic is flawed? How do you not?

And I'll bet my last dollar and my mod status that Kiel runs with nowhere near the success that Tebow had. I've seen the film and I certainly don't see Tim Tebow. Kiel is a stud, but different than Tebow. In fact, that's the first I've even heard this comparison, and I've read a lot on the kid.

Final note - you still have your math mixed up, I didn't say that I thought Kiel would start his third year, I said he would start in three years. 1) This year, he is in HS. 2) Redshirt. 3) Game on.

OK, so even though the stats OVERWHELMINGLY say that those QBs struggle and their teams do to, you still want Kiel to start as a redshirt freshman over talented guys with wayyyyyy more experience. Got it. What we have here is a difference in philosophy.

See, I'll go with the USC model, the one that WORKED FOR 7 STRAIGHT YEARS. You wait and learn behind the incumbent and then come in and keep the winning rolling. No 4 loss seasons in between. Now, if the young buck beats out the incumbent, then have at it and live with the results (which most of the time will be poor at the beginning). But luckily, we have 2 very talented guys there to bridge the gap.

 

[Irish Man3]

Change the thread name to "Woolybug vs NDinLA"

It's a good discussion guys, Im just messing with you.

 

[woolybug25]

Dude... I give up.

To respond to any of the stuff you just said would be meaningless. I'm not going to look up all of the rosters of the #1 QB's teams prior to when they got there to find out exact names/numbers who went pro. I am not going to go look up all of the articles that compare Kiels running to Tebow (althouth, if your Lienart research is anything like your Kiel research, we can assume you overlooked it) I am not going to make a bet that cannot be resolved for another three years. Finally, and especially, I am way bored saying the same thing over and over again (and I am guessing that everyone is tired of reading us going back and forth), so if you dont want to move past this without feeling the granduer of victory... then fine.. .you win. Kiel stinks, he shouldn't come to ND and no #1 QB should ever play early. There... you win.

 

[ThePiombino]

Can we just call this a stalemate and move on now? Please?

 

[NDinL.A.]

Dude... I give up.

To respond to any of the stuff you just said would be meaningless. I'm not going to look up all of the rosters of the #1 QB's teams prior to when they got there to find out exact names/numbers who went pro. I am not going to go look up all of the articles that compare Kiels running to Tebow (althouth, if your Lienart research is anything like your Kiel research, we can assume you overlooked it) I am not going to make a bet that cannot be resolved for another three years. Finally, and especially, I am way bored saying the same thing over and over again (and I am guessing that everyone is tired of reading us going back and forth), so if you dont want to move past this without feeling the granduer of victory... then fine.. .you win. Kiel stinks, he shouldn't come to ND and no #1 QB should ever play early. There... you win.

Well, that's embarrassing dude. Just say you were wrong and that's cool. But to say all that other sh!t about me saying Kiel stinks and he shouldn't come to ND??? Weak, really weak. Where did I say all that stuff? I would NEVER say anything remotely to that or even insinuate it for any potential recruit not named Chris Martin. All I said, and all I've been saying, is that MOST times young QBs don't work out THAT year for themselves and their teams. And I completely stand by that, and nothing you have written has swayed me on that. Yes, it does work out for some, but not most. And the numbers back me, as does the eyeball test.

I really hope Kiel chooses ND. That would be HUGE for this class. Then I hope he has the opportunity to learn behind some really talented QBs and play when he's mature enough and ready, like they did at SC all those years. Still don't see where I'm wrong there.

Oh, and i missed that post of yours about Leinart, in which you compared the running back position to the QB position. That sums it up right there dude. You were right in giving up. Because anyone who compares the effect a RB has on a football team over a QB (the leader of the team), well, damn, I don't know. Everyone and their mother knows that RB is one of the easiest transitions to college football and a position in which many freshman play early. How in the hell can you compare that to QB?

I didn't win, because there was nothing to win. Just don't see your point whatsoever. If you want to believe that young #1 QBs, given the same team as a very talented QB with far more experience, will do just the same or better as the experienced QBs, well, you simply haven't been paying close enough attention.

And do better than putting disparaging words in my mouth about a recruit I would love to have at ND.

 

[woolybug25]

I really hope Kiel chooses ND. That would be HUGE for this class. Then I hope he has the opportunity to learn behind some really talented QBs and play when he's mature enough and ready, like they did at SC all those years. Still don't see where I'm wrong there.

Not to take away from your glowing victory over the rest of us mindless minions, but I cant keep letting you use this dumb "USC Model" argument. Carson Palmer started as a freshman as did Barkley. All of the others were #1 ranked QB's competing with eachother. I would be fine with having several #1 ranked QBs competing for the position, unfortunetely, Kiel would be the only one.

If you say Leinart wasnt a #1 again, I will have to assume you didn't see the link earlier. Scout had him as a 5*, #1 QB.

But as I said... I am completely wrong about everything and I should just admit that there is no way Kiel will ever pass two four star recruits, nor should he, even if he is better than them. Because that would be giving up 4 to 18 losses because that is what all 5* kids do...

wut wus i tinkin'....

 

[Mirer3Powlus]

I get the feeling that you would want Kiel to sit on the bench behind Hendrix or Golson even if he was the much better quarterback, simply because how other freshmen did discourages you. The true freshman year is certainly too early for any 18 year old, but no one is advocating that... the redshirt freshman year is a completely different story. Sam Bradford, Colt McCoy, Aaron Murray, Andrew Luck... they all played great after getting a year to learn the system, and I think Kiel is just as talented as any of them. You're so worried about Notre Dame missing a step with having to resort to playing a young quarterback (a very valid concern), but you're not even entertaining the possibility that Kiel would have a very good chance at being the best player on the depth chart upon Crist's graduation... there's a reason why he's a unanimous five star while Hendrix and Golson were much lower rated in weaker years for quarterbacks. Not saying that he WILL be better than those two, but there's a very good chance of it.