Lou Holtz

[Irish YJ]

Lou for president 2024


And please, more cowbell

 

[ulukinatme]

Lou's the man! Very deserving of the award. He's a great speaker and role model for others.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/notre-dame/2020/08/27/notre-dame-football-coach-lou-holtz-rnc-biden-catholic-name-only/5640601002/

"We Catholics should remind ourselves that while we may judge the objective moral quality of another’s actions, we must never question the sincerity of another’s faith, which is due to the mysterious working of grace in that person’s heart," Jenkins said. "In this fractious time, let us remember that our highest calling is to love.”

Jenkins went on to say: “While Coach Lou Holtz is a former coach at Notre Dame, his use of the university’s name at the Republican National Convention must not be taken to imply that the university endorses his views, any candidate or any political party."

 

[Irish YJ]

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/notre-dame/2020/08/27/notre-dame-football-coach-lou-holtz-rnc-biden-catholic-name-only/5640601002/

Bishop Tobin disagrees lol.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Bishop Tobin disagrees lol.

I’m sure he does. Lol. I am going to err on the side of grace and love and omit Trump from my heart.

 

[Irish YJ]

I’m sure he does. Lol. I am going to err on the side of grace and love and omit Trump from my heart.

I omit just about all politicians from my heart. But I'll never vote for anyone that is pro late term abortions, especially one that claims to be Catholic. Regarding Jenkins, I hate word salad public communication that are veiled. He was obviously talking about Biden, but didn't use his name. He shouldn't have used Lou's name either. Wonder what Bishop Rhoades thinks lol.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Is there a difference between accepting the law and choosing to personally not have abortions and also not inflict that belief onto all other Americans regardless of their beliefs, and being pro abortion? I find this stance far from being PRO late term abortion in either case.

BIDEN: My religion defines who I am. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, people who need help. With regard to abortion, I accept my church's position that life begins at conception. That's the church's judgment. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and--I just refuse to impose that on others, unlike my friend here, the congressman. I do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that women can't control their body. It's a decision between them and their doctor, in my view. And the Supreme Court--I'm not going to interfere with that.

I can find many other quotes where he opposes federal funding and late term abortions.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I omit just about all politicians from my heart. But I'll never vote for anyone that is pro late term abortions, especially one that claims to be Catholic. Regarding Jenkins, I hate word salad public communication that are veiled. He was obviously talking about Biden, but didn't use his name. He shouldn't have used Lou's name either. Wonder what Bishop Rhoades thinks lol.

re: Biden,....yes Jenkins was speaking on Lou’s statements who specifically spoke about Biden. Lol. If you read the article it was clearly about this specific issue and Lou’s statement about Biden.



Word Salad?

 

[Irish YJ]

re: Biden,....yes Jenkins was speaking on Lou’s statements who specifically spoke about Biden. Lol. If you read the article it was clearly about this specific issue and Lou’s statement about Biden.

Word Salad?

I wasn't talking about the author of the article, I was talking about the Jenkins quote as being veiled and word salad. He purposefully didn't say Biden's name, or that Lou shouldn't criticize Joe for being pro-abortion. Instead he called out Lou directly, and veiled the Biden aspects. The author makes the statement clear however, which is a good thing.

I'm not a fan of Jenkins on Catholic matters. Neither are the last two dioceses Bishops (D'Arcy and Rhoades). And just to be transparent, I personally don't pretend to be a good Catholic, or agree with all things Catholic. I do draw a line on hypocrisy, as well as late term abortion. Being pro-abortion used to be automatic excommunication. Then some dialed it back and just withheld communion. Now, the president of the worlds most known Catholic University supplies air cover for a pro-choicer.

It's twilight zone stuff.

 

[Irish YJ]

Is there a difference between accepting the law and choosing to personally not have abortions and also not inflict that belief onto all other Americans regardless of their beliefs, and being pro abortion? I find this stance far from being PRO late term abortion in either case.



I can find many other quotes where he opposes federal funding and late term abortions.

Biden has waffled on the topic. The last 5 years he's become more and more pro-choice, even reversing course on Hyde after Warren made it an issue. He also gets PP's endorsement now.

 

[Old Man Mike]

If I had any say in this (I obviously don't have any effective say), I leave Lou and his politics off the IE site. Lou was one of the greatest ND coaches, and an argument could be made that he was the greatest modern coach period (taking program after program immediately --- one to two years --- from crap to excellent.) I want to think of Lou that way. Not as a political proponent of anything. ( I felt the same way about Ara.)

Just because someone is a genius about something, does not mean squat about anything else automatically. Even Einstein used to laugh at reporters who wanted to ask him his opinion about things he knew little to nothing about. He politely thought that anyone who took his opinion seriously on such things was a bit of a naive fool.

 

[Irish YJ]

If I had any say in this (I obviously don't have any effective say), I leave Lou and his politics off the IE site. Lou was one of the greatest ND coaches, and an argument could be made that he was the greatest modern coach period (taking program after program immediately --- one to two years --- from crap to excellent.) I want to think of Lou that way. Not as a political proponent of anything. ( I felt the same way about Ara.)

Just because someone is a genius about something, does not mean squat about anything else automatically. Even Einstein used to laugh at reporters who wanted to ask him his opinion about things he knew little to nothing about. He politely thought that anyone who took his opinion seriously on such things was a bit of a naive fool.

Wut? lol. Einstein didn't shy away from things. He was a founding member of the liberal German Dem Part, and later became an outspoken Socialist and Globalist. He may have said his views on other things didn't matter, but his actions speak for themselves. He also sat on fence on all things atheist/afterlife.

But I agree with you. I'd prefer athletes, coaches, etc stay out of politics. It's 2020 though.

 

[irishtrooper]

Love Coach Lou! I was honored to be keynote speaker at my childhood school for graduation in 2017 and used multiple quotes from him. I tend to agree with him politically, but I prefer to think of him in terms of his greatness in coaching and his amazing speeches/life advice. His story is so motivational and he has earned the right to tell it. I wonder if people would be so upset if he agreed with their worldview.

I suppose I just wish sports and politics didn’t have to be so entangled. I think when you’re at work, you should be non-political. Unless your job is in politics it has no place in your job. You are paid to fill a role/provide a service/etc. Be a social justice hero after/before work (if it’s permitted based on your rules/regs). Regarding Coach Holtz, I get that he has an association with ND and such but he was not there for 50 years and isn’t currently employed there. I think it’s weird they felt the need to even comment. It’s almost like they’re afraid of social media/twitter backlash. Bending the knee to social media nonsense is a never ending fight.

 

[NDVirginia19]

Is there a difference between accepting the law and choosing to personally not have abortions and also not inflict that belief onto all other Americans regardless of their beliefs, and being pro abortion? I find this stance far from being PRO late term abortion in either case.



I can find many other quotes where he opposes federal funding and late term abortions.

I mean I personally disagree with Lou's decision to call him a CINO, but it doesn't mean he's wrong. I think if you fully believe in the Catholic church's tenets, there is no way that you can be pro choice. The whole "Oh I believe that Abortion is a grave evil but I whatever you do you Planned Parenthood" is not morally defensible and is purely heretical. By definition Biden and all pro choice Catholics are heretics. But I am also sure that I am a heretic by definition in some way or form that I am not aware of. Hence why I don't agree with Holtz throwing the stones at Biden.

 

[SeekNDestroy]

If I had any say in this (I obviously don't have any effective say), I leave Lou and his politics off the IE site. Lou was one of the greatest ND coaches, and an argument could be made that he was the greatest modern coach period (taking program after program immediately --- one to two years --- from crap to excellent.) I want to think of Lou that way. Not as a political proponent of anything. ( I felt the same way about Ara.)

Just because someone is a genius about something, does not mean squat about anything else automatically. Even Einstein used to laugh at reporters who wanted to ask him his opinion about things he knew little to nothing about. He politely thought that anyone who took his opinion seriously on such things was a bit of a naive fool.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Irishize]

If I had any say in this (I obviously don't have any effective say), I leave Lou and his politics off the IE site. Lou was one of the greatest ND coaches, and an argument could be made that he was the greatest modern coach period (taking program after program immediately --- one to two years --- from crap to excellent.) I want to think of Lou that way. Not as a political proponent of anything. ( I felt the same way about Ara.)

Just because someone is a genius about something, does not mean squat about anything else automatically. Even Einstein used to laugh at reporters who wanted to ask him his opinion about things he knew little to nothing about. He politely thought that anyone who took his opinion seriously on such things was a bit of a naive fool.

Well said Mike. Imagine if Ara were doing color analysis & studio shows today? yikes. I’m glad he retired before sports became political as it is today. On another note, you have to think Mike Leach is whistling past the grave yard right about now. He’s an avid Trump guy coaching in the SEC...for a state school in Mississippi no less. You think Kiffin & others won’t use that against him in recruiting? Leach probably prefers Trump loses for the sake of his recruiting. You have to me more of a “politician” as a head football coach these days than an actual politician.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I wasn't talking about the author of the article, I was talking about the Jenkins quote as being veiled and word salad. He purposefully didn't say Biden's name, or that Lou shouldn't criticize Joe for being pro-abortion. Instead he called out Lou directly, and veiled the Biden aspects. The author makes the statement clear however, which is a good thing.

I'm not a fan of Jenkins on Catholic matters. Neither are the last two dioceses Bishops (D'Arcy and Rhoades). And just to be transparent, I personally don't pretend to be a good Catholic, or agree with all things Catholic. I do draw a line on hypocrisy, as well as late term abortion. Being pro-abortion used to be automatic excommunication. Then some dialed it back and just withheld communion. Now, the president of the worlds most known Catholic University supplies air cover for a pro-choicer.

It's twilight zone stuff.

No matter how you couch it Biden isn’t pro abortion. That ridiculous. I will never understand the spin that being pro choice in a democracy is being pro abortion even when the SCOTUS has ruled abortions are protected. No one is sitting there going “omg how can I get pregnant I really want to kill my unborn fetus like ASAP.”

And the real absurdity is that Lou put Trump who isn’t even a Catholic let alone religious, and who has had multiple wives and multiple infidelities, has allegations of 8 abortions out there which he won’t deny, and one who has violated most of the moral standards we ask out of president, on a higher moral standing than Joe. I mean the balls on Lou to call Joe a CINO while defending Trump is fucking gross.

A person can not want to have an abortion or be against abortions but also accept that the law isn’t designed specifically for them. I think you can be a a catholic and never have an abortion , understand others may not have your same religious beliefs, and still be a catholic without violating any church based tenets.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I mean I personally disagree with Lou's decision to call him a CINO, but it doesn't mean he's wrong. I think if you fully believe in the Catholic church's tenets, there is no way that you can be pro choice. The whole "Oh I believe that Abortion is a grave evil but I whatever you do you Planned Parenthood" is not morally defensible and is purely heretical. By definition Biden and all pro choice Catholics are heretics. But I am also sure that I am a heretic by definition in some way or form that I am not aware of. Hence why I don't agree with Holtz throwing the stones at Biden.

Hence Jenkins statement about grace and love. I don’t think you call someone who accepts abortions are not allowed by his faith and protects the rule of law as a heretic. If Joe Biden had an abortion, then yes but to my knowledge he hasn’t and has otherwise been a faithful catholic.

 

[Wingman Ray]

I mean I personally disagree with Lou's decision to call him a CINO, but it doesn't mean he's wrong. I think if you fully believe in the Catholic church's tenets, there is no way that you can be pro choice. The whole "Oh I believe that Abortion is a grave evil but I whatever you do you Planned Parenthood" is not morally defensible and is purely heretical. By definition Biden and all pro choice Catholics are heretics. But I am also sure that I am a heretic by definition in some way or form that I am not aware of. Hence why I don't agree with Holtz throwing the stones at Biden.

Im by no means Catholic but I would argue that anyone who has ever read the Bible and believes it to be the Word of God would say you couldnt be Pro Choice and be a Christian. Amazing how few people calling themselves Christian do not even read the Bible or know its contents past John 3:16 which in their minds, gives them a free license to do whatever they way.

 

[Wingman Ray]

Hence Jenkins statement about grace and love

The Word of God does indeed says grace and love covers all sins but anyone with remote knowledge of God's Word knows that the sinner has to actively repent and turn from his/her sins. That it isnt a cover all and get out of jail free card to do whatever you want with no consequences.

Can you remotely justify a Pro Choicer doing this and still being Pro Choice? Pro Choice is the pinnacle of putting oneself on the throne of your life instead of God.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Im by no means Catholic but I would argue that anyone who has ever read the Bible and believes it to be the Word of God would say you couldnt be Pro Choice and be a Christian. Amazing how few people calling themselves Christian do not even read the Bible or know its contents past John 3:16 which in their minds, gives them a free license to do whatever they way.

The Bible in many places authorizes the wanton killing and genocide of numerous groups of people including babies and children. It is also silent on abortion.

 

[BeatSC]

Wish Jenkins would have just kept his mouth shut.
Lou has been great for ND and Lou has done good things in and off the field and has made good men out of so many of his players especially black players.
Not seeing a lot of ex players except for Bobby Brown esq out there wanting to “cancel” Lou. Read my mind on what he can go do as we will cancel him.
At 83 Lou isn’t going to start tippy toeing around and offers
Traditional values which now get Schitt on.
I believe in 2016 ND bestowed some prestigious catholic award on Biden so Lou calling him out does not bode well.
Given Joes high visibility his POV on abortion matters even more and he will have to explain himself pretty soon and it won’t be to us. He is a political chameleon doing whatever will get him (God knows why he wants it with about 12-18 months left in his right mind) the presidency. Who would want that Gig after 70 but the same clan be said for Nancy.

Sorry for getting political. BTW Lou for president 2024!!!

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

The Word of God does indeed says grace and love covers all sins but anyone with remote knowledge of God's Word knows that the sinner has to actively repent and turn from his/her sins. That it isnt a cover all and get out of jail free card to do whatever you want with no consequences.

Can you remotely justify a Pro Choicer doing this and still being Pro Choice? Pro Choice is the pinnacle of putting oneself on the throne of your life instead of God.

Yes. I said earlier this think you take the position that you personally don’t want abortions and would never have an abortion is in keeping with doctrine. We live in a society where it’s legal. The next step after your personal affirmation to not have an abortion is to go after the laws and outlaw it in a democracy that that’s ha upheld the right. That isn’t a part of the doctrine and you are injecting your beliefs onto others who don’t share those beliefs. So yes. It’s simple. If you don’t want to have an abortion for fear of eternal damnation then don’t have one.

 

[Chicago Domer]

Let’s face it, Jenkins is a left wing liberal like almost all university presidents these days. That won’t change unless the government starts to stop paying for kids educations through loans and grants unless they allow free speech. I know a number of newer ND grads who I have known growing up. Most are now in their late 20s to most 30s. With very few exceptions, they have abandoned any faith. One ND couple got married about 5 years after graduating from ND and had a wedding not even mentioning God. They’re all about “social justice”, the more politically correct term for socialism/communism.

I had 2 children got to Jesuit schools, one to a non-Jesuit Catholic school and one to Purdue.

The one that came out the most spiritual was the Purdue grad, second was the non-Jesuit school and the 2 who came out very liberal were the Jesuit school grads. Let’s face it, many of the Catholic schools are Catholic in name only.

I would like to ask Father Jenkins is “If you are a Catholic school, why do so many students come in practicing Catholics come out with any faith, except the faith of social justice. I’ve asked a number of younger people what that means and the answer is we’re trying to figure that out.

I’m all for giving minorities opportunities to get a great education and succeed in life. We had a black foster daughter. She got a free ride to UW Madison and NYU and is now has a great job as in the news industry. She is now thinking how she can give back. That to me is the social change that helps the black community, not socialism.

Enough said. I won’t post on this thread about this again. Go Irish kick Dukes Butt. Let’s see a NC run this year.

 

[Old Man Mike]

... what a horrible pre-season thread. :=[

 

[NDRock]

Let’s face it, Jenkins is a left wing liberal like almost all university presidents these days. That won’t change unless the government starts to stop paying for kids educations through loans and grants unless they allow free speech. I know a number of newer ND grads who I have known growing up. Most are now in their late 20s to most 30s. With very few exceptions, they have abandoned any faith. One ND couple got married about 5 years after graduating from ND and had a wedding not even mentioning God. They’re all about “social justice”, the more politically correct term for socialism/communism.

I had 2 children got to Jesuit schools, one to a non-Jesuit Catholic school and one to Purdue.

The one that came out the most spiritual was the Purdue grad, second was the non-Jesuit school and the 2 who came out very liberal were the Jesuit school grads. Let’s face it, many of the Catholic schools are Catholic in name only.

I would like to ask Father Jenkins is “If you are a Catholic school, why do so many students come in practicing Catholics come out with any faith, except the faith of social justice. I’ve asked a number of younger people what that means and the answer is we’re trying to figure that out.

I’m all for giving minorities opportunities to get a great education and succeed in life. We had a black foster daughter. She got a free ride to UW Madison and NYU and is now has a great job as in the news industry. She is now thinking how she can give back. That to me is the social change that helps the black community, not socialism.

Enough said. I won’t post on this thread about this again. Go Irish kick Dukes Butt. Let’s see a NC run this year.

Honestly, are only capitalists capable of being good Catholics? You seem to indicate that someone who leans towards socialism is automatically more secular. Besides party politics, I really don’t see how the two are related.

 

[Irish YJ]

No matter how you couch it Biden isn’t pro abortion. That ridiculous. I will never understand the spin that being pro choice in a democracy is being pro abortion even when the SCOTUS has ruled abortions are protected. No one is sitting there going “omg how can I get pregnant I really want to kill my unborn fetus like ASAP.”

And the real absurdity is that Lou put Trump who isn’t even a Catholic let alone religious, and who has had multiple wives and multiple infidelities, has allegations of 8 abortions out there which he won’t deny, and one who has violated most of the moral standards we ask out of president, on a higher moral standing than Joe. I mean the balls on Lou to call Joe a CINO while defending Trump is fucking gross.

A person can not want to have an abortion or be against abortions but also accept that the law isn’t designed specifically for them. I think you can be a a catholic and never have an abortion , understand others may not have your same religious beliefs, and still be a catholic without violating any church based tenets.

If you embrace the Church's teaching, abortion is murder, a sin, and the sinner is subject to latae sententiae (automatic excommunication, meaning the person excommunicates themselves upon the act, not by the Church).

The Bible does not specifically discuss abortion, but they do discuss taking life. The only debate is when life begins. The Bible has contradictory words on the topic. The Church has debated it, conception, formed and unformed, and ensoulment, etc.

Scientifically, we know by month 3, the fetus is fully "formed" with all limbs, fingers, toes, etc.. Sometime in the 2nd trimester (I think at around 20 weeks), the nervous system is developed enough that baby can feel pain. At the end of the 2nd trimester, we know the baby can survive outside of womb. We also know that a third trimester baby can "think".

So logically, it's safe to say by month three it meets the fully formed criteria. If you want to discount that line of thinking, fine. It's safe to say that sometime during the 2nd trimester, science logic would suggest "life" has begun. By the end of 2nd trimester, the baby can survive outside the mother, so to say an unborn infant is not alive, or is not a "life", is pretty laughable.

I list the above so that we can at least baseline logic. One can debate when a soul is present, but science is pretty clear at what point a baby can live outside of the mom. If you're a Catholic, even if you debate when life begins, there really is not a debate about murder (it's a Commandment). So unless you want to ignore both basic Catholic teaching (thou shall not kill), AND science, logic would suggest that killing an unborn fetus that can live outside the womb, a murder.

So we have Church and science, now law.... Federal law recognized a fetus or embryo as a legal victim if killed or injured by a crime of violence. 38 states have the same or similar law. In other words, if someone killed your pregnant wife, that someone could be charged with 2 murders even in the early fetal stages. So in other words, illegal to kill a one week old fetus in the commission of a crime, but legal for a mother to choose to kill an 8 month old. Can you not see the hypocrisy and contradiction here?

Now as a politician, you can't claim to be a good Catholic that believes in the Church's teaching on the topic (which abortion is murder), yet vote for, support, or further policy, that enables what you consider murder. Even the you debate the question "when", you have to acknowledge at some point it becomes murder.

Now back to the Biden, Lou, and Trump. I don't care about what Trump or Biden does in their personal lives. I care only about their policy, and that their efforts in office to carry out that policy. If I don't like your policy, I won't vote for you. If Trump says his policy is pro life, I expect him to push pro-life policy. He's done that by nominating conservative justices. Box checked on that issue. I'm guessing Lou cares only about the policy too, especially given the alternative.

On this topic, Joe has been all over the board, and has went from pro-life early in his career, to pro-abortion. And one can not ignore his quick reversal on Hyde simply due to the progressive pressure when confronted by Warren on the debate stage. It was a quick and total cave. You can do the mental gymnastics around pro-choice vs pro-abortion if it helps you sleep at night, but at the end of the day, if you're voting for anything that enables third term abortion (including funding), the Church, science, and some laws would suggest that you're pro-abortion, and even pro-murder.

Personally, I can hold my nose on 1st trimester abortions (like I said, I'm not a "good Catholic", and not totally black and white at this stage). At some point in the second trimester it's a life, although I'm not quite sure when. In the 3rd, there is no doubt unless you want to defy all logic and science.

Not sure where Lou lines up on the continuum of "when", but guessing he sees the same hypocrisy I do when it comes to Joe. I'd also bet he doesn't like Trump as a person, just has confidence that he will push policy. Sorry so long.

 

[Irish YJ]

... what a horrible pre-season thread. :=[

Uh, it's not a preseason thread. It's a Lou Holtz thread. Lou went political, the thread followed.

The issue folks have now, are not his actual views. They only have a problem because he's supported Trump. If he endorsed Pence, or a "nicer" conservative, about the same policy, I don't think folks would be up in arms at all. And that is the sad thing.

 

[TP81989]

Holtz is an embarrassment to ND.

They should distance themselves from him and take his statue down.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

If you embrace the Church's teaching, abortion is murder, a sin, and the sinner is subject to latae sententiae (automatic excommunication, meaning the person excommunicates themselves upon the act, not by the Church).

The Bible does not specifically discuss abortion, but they do discuss taking life. The only debate is when life begins. The Bible has contradictory words on the topic. The Church has debated it, conception, formed and unformed, and ensoulment, etc.

Scientifically, we know by month 3, the fetus is fully "formed" with all limbs, fingers, toes, etc.. Sometime in the 2nd trimester (I think at around 20 weeks), the nervous system is developed enough that baby can feel pain. At the end of the 2nd trimester, we know the baby can survive outside of womb. We also know that a third trimester baby can "think".

So logically, it's safe to say by month three it meets the fully formed criteria. If you want to discount that line of thinking, fine. It's safe to say that sometime during the 2nd trimester, science logic would suggest "life" has begun. By the end of 2nd trimester, the baby can survive outside the mother, so to say an unborn infant is not alive, or is not a "life", is pretty laughable.

I list the above so that we can at least baseline logic. One can debate when a soul is present, but science is pretty clear at what point a baby can live outside of the mom. If you're a Catholic, even if you debate when life begins, there really is not a debate about murder (it's a Commandment). So unless you want to ignore both basic Catholic teaching (thou shall not kill), AND science, logic would suggest that killing an unborn fetus that can live outside the womb, a murder.

So we have Church and science, now law.... Federal law recognized a fetus or embryo as a legal victim if killed or injured by a crime of violence. 38 states have the same or similar law. In other words, if someone killed your pregnant wife, that someone could be charged with 2 murders even in the early fetal stages. So in other words, illegal to kill a one week old fetus in the commission of a crime, but legal for a mother to choose to kill an 8 month old. Can you not see the hypocrisy and contradiction here?

Now as a politician, you can't claim to be a good Catholic that believes in the Church's teaching on the topic (which abortion is murder), yet vote for, support, or further policy, that enables what you consider murder. Even the you debate the question "when", you have to acknowledge at some point it becomes murder.

Now back to the Biden, Lou, and Trump. I don't care about what Trump or Biden does in their personal lives. I care only about their policy, and that their efforts in office to carry out that policy. If I don't like your policy, I won't vote for you. If Trump says his policy is pro life, I expect him to push pro-life policy. He's done that by nominating conservative justices. Box checked on that issue. I'm guessing Lou cares only about the policy too, especially given the alternative.

On this topic, Joe has been all over the board, and has went from pro-life early in his career, to pro-abortion. And one can not ignore his quick reversal on Hyde simply due to the progressive pressure when confronted by Warren on the debate stage. It was a quick and total cave. You can do the mental gymnastics around pro-choice vs pro-abortion if it helps you sleep at night, but at the end of the day, if you're voting for anything that enables third term abortion (including funding), the Church, science, and some laws would suggest that you're pro-abortion, and even pro-murder.

Personally, I can hold my nose on 1st trimester abortions (like I said, I'm not a "good Catholic", and not totally black and white at this stage). At some point in the second trimester it's a life, although I'm not quite sure when. In the 3rd, there is no doubt unless you want to defy all logic and science.

Not sure where Lou lines up on the continuum of "when", but guessing he sees the same hypocrisy I do when it comes to Joe. I'd also bet he doesn't like Trump as a person, just has confidence that he will push policy. Sorry so long.

There is lots of life taking in the Bible YJ. Lots and you know who sanctioned it? GOD. The keeping of the commandment of no killing is violated in nearly every chapter of the OT at the behest and Duty to GOD including women and children.

The only thing people need to do is worry about themselves. Don’t have an abortion. If you truly believe your soul is on the line as opposed to all the other things good Catholics don’t do on a daily basis.... That’s all there is to it. Just don’t. The SCOTUS will never rule on when a soul would develop from two haploid gametes fusing. It will never rule on the status of humanity without medical expertise. Pro choice does not equal pro abortion. Omg