Keep it on the ground, Kelly?

[Cogs]

I'm too excited for this season to start, and I thought I'd make another forum post.

I'd just like to say that if we run the ball this year, we win. We have one of the most talented backs in the country, great run blocking, and a QB with wheels. There is no reason we should be passing the ball more than running. This will definitely limit the turnover crisis, and keep pressure off our new QB (assuming it's Golson). Does this logic just make too much sense or am I just an idiot? I'm not saying we don't have the pass offense to get it done, I just think it would make a lot more sense to go with what worked last year with and even improved run offense this year. We should be doing at least 60% run 40% pass. I believe this is the main solution to a successful year. And I wouldn't doubt Golson's completion rate will be through the roof.

Sometimes coaches get too pass happy, and I think that's what happened a little with kelly last year. Rees would check down to the run quite a bit, and we definitely saw some success. That is something Golson needs to pick up.

Edit: Just found out our 2011 Run percentage was 47% vs. 53% pass. Just imagine the numbers the offense will put up with at least 13% more running plays.

 

[NDLacrosse]

Amen

There aren't too many cases on this schedule, which is admittedly daunting, where our OL vs their DL is a matchup we lose. (That's an understatement, our OL should dominate, AKA truck-sized holes for Wood and Riddick). Conversely, I see our passing offense vs some secondaries we play turning out poorly (especially with a rookie QB)

I say we play to our strengths

 

[phgreek]

I'm too excited for this season to start, and I thought I'd make another forum post.

I'd just like to say that if we run the ball this year, we win. We have one of the most talented backs in the country, great run blocking, and a QB with wheels. There is no reason we should be passing the ball more than running. This will definitely limit the turnover crisis, and keep pressure off our new QB (assuming it's Golson). Does this logic just make too much sense or am I just an idiot? I'm not saying we don't have the pass offense to get it done, I just think it would make a lot more sense to go with what worked last year with and even improved run offense this year. We should be doing at least 60% run 40% pass. I believe this is the main solution to a successful year. And I wouldn't doubt Golson's completion rate will be through the roof.

Sometimes coaches get too pass happy, and I think that's what happened a little with kelly last year. Rees would check down to the run quite a bit, and we definitely saw some success. That is something Golson needs to pick up.

...plenty of backs to run heavily...If we do less than 50%, I'll be shocked. I think somewhere 55 run 45 pass would be tilted a little, and 60/40 would be good ...its hard to figure raw %s because I'd count a screen as a run in that scenario..

 

[DSully1995]

just set up PA bootlegs for EG, Daniels or CB on the go route and let them make plays

 

[BobD]

Depends on who we're playing and how we match up. To have the type of season we'd like to have, we'll need both the pass and running game. I don't like the idea of designing gameplans to avoid turnovers, I'd rather eliminate the turnover.

You don't avoid driving a car because you might crash, you learn how to drive the car.

JMHO

 

[ACamp1900]

I know this, had they run the freakin ball inside the fifteen our season would have come out a lot better last year.

 

[Cogs]

I'm too excited for this season to start, and I thought I'd make another forum post.

I'd just like to say that if we run the ball this year, we win. We have one of the most talented backs in the country, great run blocking, and a QB with wheels. There is no reason we should be passing the ball more than running. This will definitely limit the turnover crisis, and keep pressure off our new QB (assuming it's Golson). Does this logic just make too much sense or am I just an idiot? I'm not saying we don't have the pass offense to get it done, I just think it would make a lot more sense to go with what worked last year with and even improved run offense this year. We should be doing at least 60% run 40% pass. I believe this is the main solution to a successful year. And I wouldn't doubt Golson's completion rate will be through the roof.

Sometimes coaches get too pass happy, and I think that's what happened a little with kelly last year. Rees would check down to the run quite a bit, and we definitely saw some success. That is something Golson needs to pick up.

Edit: Just found out our 2011 Run percentage was 47% vs. 53% pass. Just imagine the numbers the offense will put up with at least 13% more running plays.

Depends on who we're playing and how we match up. To have the type of season we'd like to have, we'll need both the pass and running game. I don't like the idea of designing gameplans to avoid turnovers, I'd rather eliminate the turnover.

You don't avoid driving a car because you might crash, you learn how to drive the car.

JMHO

I agree with you, but I'm talking about how Kelly should be developing a preference for the run. Passing teams have more turnovers than running teams in general. And most of the turnovers were from Rees last year, not wood or gray. Running will assist in a low turnover rate this season.

 

[Black Irish]

My concern is that when the run gets stuffed and we get behind, ND has to resort to panic passing in a desperate bid to catch up. We have to do what's best on a case by case basis. For instance, IMO, the Irish are going to have to shoot it out against USC to have a chance because I don't think 3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust is going to work versus the Trojans. However, I am very happy that we are stacked enough at RB to even be having this discussion.

 

[cam2ham]

Only having two backs kinda limited the run game, if one of those guys would have went down we probably would have finished much worse, look at FSU the absence of Jonas pretty much forced us to go pass heavy.

With the abundance of running backs we have I think we'll see more in the running game, but we have no idea how Golson or the passing game will be this year. A lot of people on this board need to understand BK is a hell of a lot smarter than any of us and has reasons for the things he does.

 

[Grahambo]

I've always been a run first type of guy but to have a successful ground game, you need to have a decent throwing game. That will force the defense to not throw 8, even 9 in the box to stuff the run.

With EG (even Hendrix), Cierre, GAIII, Amir, Neal, Toma, Mahone, etc..I think you will see a short to medium air game with solid dose of running. It also sets up the long ball to Eifert, Daniels, TJ, Fergie, Brown.

 

[Rocket89]

It's interesting to think about. Most would agree that our talent seems to suggest we run the ball 60% of the time.

I think it may be possible that Kelly is trending towards that type of offense as he comes under the realization of the types of players he can recruit on the offensive line and tight end.

But still, running the ball 60% of the time is a lot, particularly in today's game. To do that, you're running the ball a lot in second and 8 situations (for example) and that can get mighty frustrating at times when it doesn't pay off.

We tend to look at some of the best teams in the country (particularly in the SEC) and think that because they're running the ball so much that that is what Notre Dame should do. Yet, I would argue those offenses (like LSU & Alabama) are not to be emulated. In many games, their offenses hold the team back from greater success.

Just look at the first Alabama-LSU game last year. McCarron had an okay game, nothing special, and Alabama couldn't run the ball that well and couldn't score touchdowns. Too bad for them that they lost. Turn around and watch the national title game and the whole offense revolved around McCarron throwing the ball and opening up the running game---suddenly Alabama looks like their in a different league with a comfortable victory.

The name of the game on offense is to stay balanced, always will be. Even Holtz' teams suffered major breakdowns on offense because all they did was run the ball, and couldn't move the ball sometimes because of the lack of a passing game.

 

[EddytoNow]

I'd like to believe we can muscle our way to victories behind our offensive line, but they will still have to prove themselves in the big games. It's one thing to run for a bunch of yards against Purdue or Navy. It's a little more difficult to run for a ton of yards against USC or Oklahoma. Hopefully, our offensive line is up to the challenge.

One of the missing pieces last year was a deep passing threat. Rees's limited arm strength coupled with our receivers lack of deep threat speed allowed defenses to overplay our running game and force us into a short passing game. When this happened Rees had tunnel vision for Eifert or Floyd. Rees never gave T.J. and Robby a look. There is no reason T.J. and Robby can't have 50-60 catches a year with our offense, but you've got to throw them the ball.

In a nutshell, when the running game got stuffed our offense became pass to Floyd or Eifert. The rest of the playbook was thrown out.

 

[IrishLax]

While I agree with the premise that with a 1st year QB we'll absolutely need to emphasize the run....

1. Cierre Wood is incredibly overrated by some on this board. To this point in his career he has shown nothing but 4th-7th round NFL talent. He is certainly no Trent Richardson or Adrian Peterson where it is an acceptable offensive gameplan to give him the ball and let him make plays. There's a reason Theo Riddick played over him as a RB his freshman year.

2. The idea that Mike Golic Jr. is going to be our starting RG should really temper everyone's enthusiasm about this offensive line. Unless he has made dramatic strength gains he is going to be, at best, a side-grade to Trevor Robinson. And Trevor Robinson was nowhere close to an NFL caliber player.

3. You have to take what the defense gives you. Against Purdue we shredded them on the ground because they also had a stupid gameplan of how to deal with Floyd and therefor were scared sh*tless of getting beat deep. We also built an early lead. Against FSU, they figured out really quickly that Tommy didn't have the arm strength to beat them vertically with the speed of their DBs and then Floyd got hurt on his touchdown grab......... trying to run the ball was completely futile (as evidenced by the 3 YPC we were getting) as a product of the passing situation. If you replace any of our WRs with Mike Wallace for the FSU game and replace Tommy with any QB with a semi-good arm... even a loser like Rex Grossman.... then you're able to run because the defense can't crowd the box. If we want to be able to run this year then John Goodman, TJ Jones, DaVaris Daniels, Chris Brown, etc. need to step up to the point that they challenge elite DBs... similarly, the QB has to have the ability to get the ball downfield.

 

[Rocket89]

While I agree with the premise that with a 1st year QB we'll absolutely need to emphasize the run....

1. Cierre Wood is incredibly overrated by some on this board. To this point in his career he has shown nothing but 4th-7th round NFL talent. He is certainly no Trent Richardson or Adrian Peterson where it is an acceptable offensive gameplan to give him the ball and let him make plays. There's a reason Theo Riddick played over him as a RB his freshman year.

2. The idea that Mike Golic Jr. is going to be our starting RG should really temper everyone's enthusiasm about this offensive line. Unless he has made dramatic strength gains he is going to be, at best, a side-grade to Trevor Robinson. And Trevor Robinson was nowhere close to an NFL caliber player.

3. You have to take what the defense gives you. Against Purdue we shredded them on the ground because they also had a stupid gameplan of how to deal with Floyd and therefor were scared sh*tless of getting beat deep. We also built an early lead. Against FSU, they figured out really quickly that Tommy didn't have the arm strength to beat them vertically with the speed of their DBs and then Floyd got hurt on his touchdown grab......... trying to run the ball was completely futile (as evidenced by the 3 YPC we were getting) as a product of the passing situation. If you replace any of our WRs with Mike Wallace for the FSU game and replace Tommy with any QB with a semi-good arm... even a loser like Rex Grossman.... then you're able to run because the defense can't crowd the box. If we want to be able to run this year then John Goodman, TJ Jones, DaVaris Daniels, Chris Brown, etc. need to step up to the point that they challenge elite DBs... similarly, the QB has to have the ability to get the ball downfield.

Definitely agree with points 2 & 3. Not so much with your first point in so much as NFL draft grade really has any bearing on how good (or productive) a back can be in college.

I've thought that Cierre has been very underrated on this board and within the entire fan base. I think that's definitely starting to change though as he becomes an upperclassman. He's VERY talented IMO and on the verge of being a premier back in the country. He may never be viewed that way partly due to the system he's in, but I have no doubt he'd put up huge numbers playing at a place like Wisconsin.

If we're going to compare him to Riddick, well Theo's got some catching up to do. There may be reasons why Riddick played as a freshman, but now he's the one with far less career production and a draft grade that likely reads 'Free Agent.'

The horses are there to run the ball really well, but then we have to sober ourselves with your second and third points.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I'm too excited for this season to start, and I thought I'd make another forum post.

I'd just like to say that if we run the ball this year, we win. We have one of the most talented backs in the country, great run blocking, and a QB with wheels. There is no reason we should be passing the ball more than running. This will definitely limit the turnover crisis, and keep pressure off our new QB (assuming it's Golson). Does this logic just make too much sense or am I just an idiot? I'm not saying we don't have the pass offense to get it done, I just think it would make a lot more sense to go with what worked last year with and even improved run offense this year. We should be doing at least 60% run 40% pass. I believe this is the main solution to a successful year. And I wouldn't doubt Golson's completion rate will be through the roof.

Sometimes coaches get too pass happy, and I think that's what happened a little with kelly last year. Rees would check down to the run quite a bit, and we definitely saw some success. That is something Golson needs to pick up.

Edit: Just found out our 2011 Run percentage was 47% vs. 53% pass. Just imagine the numbers the offense will put up with at least 13% more running plays.

I like it. Been hoping for this game plan for months. Don't forget out nice little stockpile of tight ends

 

[Patulski]

It was interesting to hear Christian Lombard say say that offensive line coach Harry Hiestand told them ND hadn't had an All-American offensive lineman since 2002. The two Senior starters from 2011 that graduated in May went undrafted by the NFL. Hopefully, Kelly can recognize and is in the process of developing offensive line talent.

 

[Patulski]

If we're going to compare him to Riddick, well Theo's got some catching up to do. There may be reasons why Riddick played as a freshman, but now he's the one with far less career production and a draft grade that likely reads 'Free Agent.'

I think Riddick has an advantage over Wood in one facet of this system: He's better at making the first guy miss in the open field. Wood had trouble doing that last year, particularly in games like USC where we had trouble running between the tackles. Kelly was all over him during that game for his failure to beat the first guy in the open field.

The good thing is that Kelly can use both of their strengths, which is why I hope we use a lot of two running back sets. Add GAII into the mix-who is more like Wood than Riddick- and Amir-who is more like Riddick- and you've got a lot of options. Add in a QB that can run, and the options expand.

We'll see soon.

 

[Patulski]

Against FSU, they figured out really quickly that Tommy didn't have the arm strength to beat them vertically with the speed of their DBs .

Except when Floyd dropped a long vertical pass....

Not saying Rees has a strong game, but we failed to exploit their strategy because of our lack of execution as well.

See the 11:27 mark of the video below.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XXShUU4yWLU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Rocket89]

I think Riddick has an advantage over Wood in one facet of this system: He's better at making the first guy miss in the open field. Wood had trouble doing that last year, particularly in games like USC where we had trouble running between the tackles. Kelly was all over him during that game for his failure to beat the first guy in the open field.

The good thing is that Kelly can use both of their strengths, which is why I hope we use a lot of two running back sets. Add GAII into the mix-who is more like Wood than Riddick- and Amir-who is more like Riddick- and you've got a lot of options. Add in a QB that can run, and the options expand.

We'll see soon.

Eh, I only partly agree.

Riddick has the moves, but almost to his own detriment. He can shake the first defender, but hasn't exhibited the ability to keep his feet moving and running at a high speed before, during, and after the juke.

How many times in his career has Riddick made a defender miss, then we all think he's about to do something special, only to be tripped up 3 yards later?

I definitely think some of that has been with past injuries, but Riddick has not proven he can make someone miss and speed down field for more yards the way that Wood can. I think they'll both be very successful this year, but Wood improved dramatically with his power running, running between the tackles, and protecting the ball last year. From what I've seen, I'll take Wood's quick moves, foot plant, and vertical running ability---his running back skills are much more developed.

 

[connor_in]

I think the situation dictates the actual split.

While I hope it is more run, it will also have to include the pass mixed in obviously to keep the defense guessing. Yes, I think our OL is very good. However, I don't think they are a constantly blow them off the line style of OL.

My biggest hope is the Martin influence that has been alluded to previously on this board is very evident. They have discussed having the same personell out there for run/pass and shifting them all over to confuse the defenses and take advantage of how the defense presents itself. This is especially true of teams that have special packages they want to play on passing downs or certain lineups they want in on running situations.

Present run look....shift to pass...but still have the ability to pitch or bootleg out of that look and we will get yards simply on the extra time the D's will have to use to make constant adjustments.

 

[BobD]

We need a well balanced attack to be successful.

Pass is haste, on your arse you'll be placed.

My favorite game plan for this year: A team that can't score, can't beat you.

 

[texbender]

I beieve you'll see ND, especially early, heavy on the run game and passes will be short to help the young qb gain confidence. If that works for the first 3-4 games, they can open it a bit more as season progresses. Having a strong D that limits opponents from scoring will also play huge. It's the basics: Defense, Control Ball(no turnovers), Special Teams.

 

[Black Irish]

I beieve you'll see ND, especially early, heavy on the run game and passes will be short to help the young qb gain confidence. If that works for the first 3-4 games, they can open it a bit more as season progresses. Having a strong D that limits opponents from scoring will also play huge. It's the basics: Defense, Control Ball(no turnovers), Special Teams.

Unfortunately, we were only nailing 1 out of the 3 basics consistently last season. If the Irish can make it 3 for 3 this year, we'll all be cursing much less on Saturdays.

 

[IrishLax]

Except when Floyd dropped a long vertical pass....

Not saying Rees has a strong game, but we failed to exploit their strategy because of our lack of execution as well.

See the 11:27 mark of the video below.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XXShUU4yWLU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

A bit of semantics, I didn't exactly type that how I wanted at 6:45 this morning... and you cut out what I was saying about Floyd, which was supposed to be half of the point. I was trying to say it was more of a combination of things and that once Floyd went out we had no deep threat + Tommy on the whole didn't scare them because his long ball is terrible. Notice that earlier in the half Tommy misses a wide open Floyd on another long ball. The entire game FSU attacked the line of scrimmage and gambled on Floyd being able to beat them deep because we didn't have any other deep threat WRs that would challenge them at all + Tommy isn't a good deep ball thrower. Twice they gambled and lost in the first half... both times they got bailed out... once by Tommy, once by Floyd.

 

[irishpat183]

Eh, I only partly agree.

Riddick has the moves, but almost to his own detriment. He can shake the first defender, but hasn't exhibited the ability to keep his feet moving and running at a high speed before, during, and after the juke.

How many times in his career has Riddick made a defender miss, then we all think he's about to do something special, only to be tripped up 3 yards later?

I definitely think some of that has been with past injuries, but Riddick has not proven he can make someone miss and speed down field for more yards the way that Wood can. I think they'll both be very successful this year, but Wood improved dramatically with his power running, running between the tackles, and protecting the ball last year. From what I've seen, I'll take Wood's quick moves, foot plant, and vertical running ability---his running back skills are much more developed.

Great point on Theo....He actually jukes himself outta more yards. Wood is much better as a "plant and go" type guy. Perfectly put.

Also, running the ball 60% of the time is a great goal...but if you're behind, then you have to adjust your gameplan. USC and OU are gonna light it up and I doubt we're gonna be in a spot with them to just grind it out....(realistically, we'll probably be behind in those games). Sometimes if you get to fixated on a style, you can cheat yourself outta big plays. Let Golson get out there and sling it if we're in a fire fight.

That's why I say throw those stats out the window....if a team can't stop your run, then run til Wood's legs fall off. If they can't stop the pass, throw til EG's arm falls off. Whatever it takes, and it doesn't have to be pretty.

 

[obi wan mahoney]

A bit of semantics, I didn't exactly type that how I wanted at 6:45 this morning... and you cut out what I was saying about Floyd, which was supposed to be half of the point. I was trying to say it was more of a combination of things and that once Floyd went out we had no deep threat + Tommy on the whole didn't scare them because his long ball is terrible. Notice that earlier in the half Tommy misses a wide open Floyd on another long ball. The entire game FSU attacked the line of scrimmage and gambled on Floyd being able to beat them deep because we didn't have any other deep threat WRs that would challenge them at all + Tommy isn't a good deep ball thrower. Twice they gambled and lost in the first half... both times they got bailed out... once by Tommy, once by Floyd.

Watching Floyd drop that pass was painful but promising. I totally agree that ND needs to develop that deep threat/quick strike in order to return to the elite. As many have already stated, that is done by controlling the line, establishing a running game, and having a QB with a cannon to make that pass when given the chance. I watched many of ESPNU's top 25 games 0f 2011, several of which involved Baylor. Watching RGIII's ability to connect on the deep ball was impressive and a game changer. We need that type of reliability.

 

[IrishLax]

Watching Floyd drop that pass was painful but promising. I totally agree that ND needs to develop that deep threat/quick strike in order to return to the elite. As many have already stated, that is done controlling the line, establishing a running game, and having a QB with a cannon to make that pass when given the chance. I watched many of ESPNU's top 25 games 0f 2011, several of which involved Baylor. Watching RGIII's ability to connect on the deep ball was impressive and a game changer. We need that type of reliability.

Exactly. This is why when people champion Robby Toma as the starter in the slot I go... wtf? Yeah, he can be a very effective player on a number of different routes and situations. But can he go vertical from that position like Davonte Neal? Hell no. There are pages of plays that you can run with Davonte that you simply can't with Toma.

You need more Chris Browns, Davonte Neals, etc. and you need a QB like Golson or Kiel that can unload the football without excessive hangtime downfield. I always hearken back to when Ben Roethlisberger said once that he basically couldn't overthrow Mike Wallace... just that threat alone forces the defense to either put a safety over top or have the corner play off because the defense will eventually get burned for an 80 yard TD if they don't. If you can't scare teams like that, everything tightens up quite a bit and you better have a fantastic OL + RB or a serious playmaker at the QB position.

 

[irishtrinity]

I agree.. Last yr we would have won at least 2 more games with more running..

 

[Riddickulous]

I agree.. Last yr we would have won at least 2 more games with more running..

Which of the five losses do you think we would have won with more running?