Is Dayne Crist the Problem?

[NeuteredDoomer]

Critiques of throwing motion are easier if you are critiquing a baseball pitcher, who is alone and untouched on the mound. It is kind of tougher to critique a QB in a moving spread offense. Only thing I have noticed is maybe a tendency to release the ball late in the throwing motion, which could lead to bullets, but underthrown ones at that. He would probaly make one hell of a fastball (low and outside) pitcher. Otherwise, bottom line for a QB, despite any coach's or critics perceived notion of a "perfect" throwing motion is rather random, and what really matters is does he get the ball where it needs to go.

I've known many a QB coach and critic who never played the position but know exactly how the QB should throw. Funny quote I read goes something like "Give me a superior athlete, and I will COACH him down to average."

Incidentally, I spoke long distance to 3 different die hard ND fans and asked "What do you see?" First thing all 3 said was "QB is the weakness." One of the people I spoke to is a die hard 14 year old ND fan.

I'm blaming it on the play calling that does not allow for the quick rush. In the second half, ND threw a quick pooch screen to the left. Quick. Long gain. All of a sudden, Dayne is All American.

 

[Dizzyphil]

It's a completely adequate response to what you posted. You made wild statements about "not being able to hit the broad side of a barn". A 60% completion percentage is a perfectly logical argument against the rhetoric you used, regardless of what you might have been thinking. You might have been thinking "Well, it's not THAT bad, but I'm angry so I am going to exaggerate a little.", but you wrote "can't hit the broad side of a barn." I can't speak for anyone else here, but in regards to MY responses to you: I've never once said that things are going great. I merely refuted your assertion that the sky was falling because Dayne Crist has problems with consistently being accurate.

and if I may add to this CanadianIrish, was the Fade Pass caught? - yes, Was the Fade Pass on perfect target? - no, was the Fade Pass intercepted or batted away? - no and no it wasn't perfect - but does that justify to calling those that thought it was a good pass an Idiot???

Diz

 

[Dizzyphil]

Critiques of throwing motion are easier if you are critiquing a baseball pitcher, who is alone and untouched on the mound. It is kind of tougher to critique a QB in a moving spread offense. Only thing I have noticed is maybe a tendency to release the ball late in the throwing motion, which could lead to bullets, but underthrown ones at that. He would probaly make one hell of a fastball (low and outside) pitcher. Otherwise, bottom line for a QB, despite any coach's or critics perceived notion of a "perfect" throwing motion is rather random.

Bottom line for a QB is does he get the ball where it needs to go. I've known many a QB coach and critic who never played the position but know exactly how the QB should throw. Funny quote I read goes something like "Give me a superior athlete, and I will COACH him down to average."

Incidentally, I spoke long distance to 3 different die hard ND fans and asked "What do you see?" First thing all 3 said was "QB is the weakness." One of the people I spoke to is a die hard 14 year old ND fan.

I'm blaming it on the play calling that does not allow for the quick rush. In the second half, ND threw a quick pooch screen to the left. Quck. Long gain. All of a sudden, Dayne is All American.

which I can agree that accuracy is not the greatest and yes, he does get the ball where it needs to be. What is funny about this whole discussion is, the announcers will say, "he put that ball where only his receiver could catch it"... would that be considered on target and accurate? - just sayin'

Diz

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Someone over at NDNation has posted a critique of Dayne's throwing motion, and claims that there are actually three distinct throwing motions, one of which is accurate and the others are not.

I haven't paid enough attention to comment, but several articles from the time of his recruitment raise concerns about consistency in his throwing motion and release point. Maybe that's the problem, I don't know.

But this team will not win games against decent opponents throwing 75% of the time (as we did in the first half) with Dayne's current accuracy.

Multiple quarterback personality disorder. Are the three motions, "right play at the right time", "wrong play, takes too long", and "oh-****"? Neutered has a point. Are they the right plays at the right time, within the framework of what the quarterback can accomplish? Personally, I don't think Dayne has any more limitations than any of the top half-dozen quarterbacks from last years class, and fewer than most. Again, you can't compare inexperience to experience.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Here is a better example of how hanging Dayne Crist out to dry is wasted energy. This describes the touchdown to Tyler Eifert this weekend. Good example about how the receivers still are not clear on their routes, complex offense:

And then there's the touchdown. In reality, it didn't happen like it was drawn up on the play sheet, but why argue with success?

“Actually, I ran the wrong route - I'm not gonna lie,” Eifert said. “I was supposed to run a quick-out, but I ran a slant instead. It's a concept that I messed up. Luckily, Dayne got away (from the defensive pressure), otherwise, that would have been bad. I got a couple nice blocks downfield (after the reception).

 

[BestBIrish47]

Dayne is clearly the best QB we have on this team, (See Michigan) and he is developing. He isn't Jimmy, and we need to get used to the fact that the past two seasons we had Jimmy, that guy throws as accurate a ball as we will see in South Bend. Dayne looks to me to be a good athlete, a good leader, and a gamer. IMO he will continue to develop into a good QB, but until we get someone else behind him that is capable... we have to stick with him!

 

[ndcoltsfan2010]

I for one will not hang Crist out to dry. We all have big expectations from our quarterbacks after having had Quinn and Clausen the past several years. To add to the fact that here is a kid who has only started 7 games thus far in an entirely new system. He is not doing that bad and he has shown some really good promise. I am hoping as the season progresses he continues to improve as he gets more comfortable. He is without a doubt our best chance to win right now.

 

[CanadianIrish]

Dayne certainly does look to be a good leader, and he has incredible arm strength, but he has to develop touch. I can't accept that his problems are all related to the system - with receivers like Floyd and Rudy he's got to learn to throw an effective fade and right now his fade is just hideous. Saying the system is at fault for his off target throws just seems like a huge cop-out to me. This is a problem with him as a QB, it was identified in high school, Kelly identified it in the spring (though he said footwork was the problem causing inaccuracy) and the announcers can see it. He has relied on arm strength to this point, and that just won't cut it anymore. He needs to work on his accuracy immediately.

 

[PANDFAN]

as someone posted before, he is holding onto the ball too long which is why you see a lot of his passes that are incomplete hitting a few yards in front of the receiver....again at this point, with so few starts under his belt... i am pleased with his performance

 

[BestBIrish47]

I think Dayne has shown he can make plays with his feet, I mean he isn't Kevin McDougal, but I like how BK has let him run around and play ball.

 

[GoIrish41]

Brady Quinn started for two years before he got on track -- so did Clausen. Why would anyone expect that Dayne should step in and be an all-American after 5,6 or 7 games? Give the guy a break. He's doing fine for a first year starter in a new system. Those who expect him to be putting up stats like Jimmy did last year are just completely unrealistic.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Dayne certainly does look to be a good leader, and he has incredible arm strength, but he has to develop touch. I can't accept that his problems are all related to the system - with receivers like Floyd and Rudy he's got to learn to throw an effective fade and right now his fade is just hideous. Saying the system is at fault for his off target throws just seems like a huge cop-out to me. This is a problem with him as a QB, it was identified in high school, Kelly identified it in the spring (though he said footwork was the problem causing inaccuracy) and the announcers can see it. He has relied on arm strength to this point, and that just won't cut it anymore. He needs to work on his accuracy immediately.

Now you're talking! The problem isn't any individual thing above growth, except -- Dayne Crist thinks too much. With experience, his reaction will become more automatic, less tripping over his feet, quicker realease, better timing for critical timing based throws.

 

[CanadianIrish]

Brady Quinn started for two years before he got on track -- so did Clausen. Why would anyone expect that Dayne should step in and be an all-American after 5,6 or 7 games? Give the guy a break. He's doing fine for a first year starter in a new system. Those who expect him to be putting up stats like Jimmy did last year are just completely unrealistic.

That's possible, but it doesn't change the fact that Dayne is the problem with this team right now. It's all fine and good to say he will grow and improve, but it doesn't mean that he isn't what's holding back the team now.

 

[The Polish Irishman]

If you think Dayne is problem, Watch Jabocy Harris play

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

If you think Dayne is problem, Watch Jabocy Harris play

bu bu bu... Todd McShay said preseason that Harris was the #6 pocket passer in the country...... (No I didn't mess up there, he said #6 pocket passer)

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Other than the recent string of USC QB's (which I don't like any more than you) and Cam Newton you have to say that Dayne's having one of the best first-years in recent memory. Even McElroy last year wasn't doing what Dayne's doing now, and look at all the talent he had.

 

[irishandy]

While I think there are some valid points about comparing Clausen to Crist in the first year, but, overall, it's comparing apples and oranges. Crist has been in the college ranks for two years already--growing, developing, and adjusting to the college game. Jimmy was thrown in as a true freshmen, with no time to acclimate. While it can be argued that Jimmy and Dayne were both thrown into new systems their first starting years, Jimmy's talent surrounding him was waaaaaay worse than what DC has to work with, and did not have any period of adjustment to the college game. This is why I don't think comparisons are warranted at this point. Sure there were a few similarities, but just as many differences which destroy any legitimacy in the comparison. There are too many variables to gain any conclusive results.

It took 9 pages for this to come up, mgriff I agree with you. I feel you can't compare Clausen to Crist when they both started out- Clausen game in starting as a true freshman (also being bothered by an injury) and Crist got 2 years to watch and learn.

jason_h537 I disagree with you on pg. 5, I think ND would have more wins if Clausen was here and ND's name would be in the talks with the national championship (only because of Clausen's experience).

Statistics don't matter to me at all as long as we are producing W's. ND is on a 3 game winning streak (hopefully more) and I am enjoying the streak.

What Crist is doing better than Clausen at this point is running the ball as a QB. Personally I don't like having a running QB, but that's what comes with the spread offense. When he does run I just hope that he doesn't get hit the wrong way because of his past with injuries and I don't like that Crist leads the team in rushing TD's. Hey Crist is going to miss some throws and makes some bad throws, let him develop. After 7 games I give Crist a B/B- as a QB.

 

[jason_h537]

jason_h537 I disagree with you on pg. 5, I think ND would have more wins if Clausen was here and ND's name would be in the talks with the national championship (only because of Clausen's experience).

I agree that we would have a better record with Jimmy, Michigan is a perfect example. I would like our chances more with a backup Crist than Rees/Montana. The point i was making is that even with Clausen we would not be a legit NC contender. Our team would be exposed by the elite. Also Clausen would be a 4th year starter (on top of being the most accurate passer i seen in college since Drew Brees).

I questioned what the OP was looking for in Crist? Because it sounded like he expected either Clausen 2.0 or a NC, and both are unrealistic expectations

 

[mgriff]

Clausen would have struggled as well. Obviously not with the accuracy, but developing the familiarity and confidence in the new system. He would have had to unlearn everything. While I don't know if he would be money by now, he certainly would have had issues with a completely different offense, but he would have smoked all the throws.

 

[CuteIrishGirl]

I loved Jimmy very much but I think Dayne is doing a good job too.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

His accuracy does blow when throwing on the run(which is magnified when the o line isn't playing well)...but he isn't playing nearly as poorly as you think. He's simply average which is exactly what Jimmy was prior to that bowl game against Hawaii and what Quinn was prior to his 3rd year. He's on pace for around 25-30 total touchdowns and under 10 interceptions. Try watching a Florida,UCLA,or Tennessee game if you want to see a team with a "serious problem" @ starting QB.

Actually, with the stats you quote, Dayne is running at about half the interceptions Jimmy had his first season. Of course comparing the two is silly, because Clauson never had to learn the spread, and Dayne isn't a true freshman. Oh, yeah, and Jimmy did not have major reconstructive surgery, that usually takes a year of rehabilitation, nine months before the start of his season.

The only thing that makes this thread "dumb" is that no one talks about the complexity of all eleven starters learning the spread. (Where do you think the penalties come from on offense?)

 

[JeremyND07]

I am sure someone has made this point but compared to the last (2) QB's we've had at ND DC is better then both of them in their first year! Here are the stats to prove it. Big play ability, TD-INT ratio, QB rating, and even comp percentage are better then BQ & JC!! DC is a better QB then both of them and if he progresses even close to what they did while at ND...he will be the TOP tier QB that actually wins big games that we have been waiting for at ND. First year, new system, and injuries to top TE in the country and his center yet he has not missed a beat!

Brady Quinn
CMP 191
ATT 353
YDS 2586
CMP% 54.1
LNG 54
TD 17
INT 10
RATING 125.87

Jimmy Clausen
CMP 138
ATT 245
YDS 1254
CMP% 56.3
LNG 44
TD 7
INT 6
RATING 103.8

Dayne Crist
CMP 155
ATT 261
YDS 1855
CMP% 59.4
LNG 95
TD 14
INT 5
RATING 132.95

 

[Kak7304]

I am sure someone has made this point but compared to the last (2) QB's we've had at ND DC is better then both of them in their first year! Here are the stats to prove it. Big play ability, TD-INT ratio, QB rating, and even comp percentage are better then BQ & JC!! DC is a better QB then both of them and if he progresses even close to what they did while at ND...he will be the TOP tier QB that actually wins big games that we have been waiting for at ND. First year, new system, and injuries to top TE in the country and his center yet he has not missed a beat!

Brady Quinn
CMP 191
ATT 353
YDS 2586
CMP% 54.1
LNG 54
TD 17
INT 10
RATING 125.87

Jimmy Clausen
CMP 138
ATT 245
YDS 1254
CMP% 56.3
LNG 44
TD 7
INT 6
RATING 103.8

Dayne Crist
CMP 155
ATT 261
YDS 1855
CMP% 59.4
LNG 95
TD 14
INT 5
RATING 132.95

Even though it is a new system, I don't think this comparison can be made. Brady and Jimmy both started as true freshmen while Crist is a junior. He has had two previous years to adjust to the speed of the college game while in practice. If he was not performing better, I would seriously be concerned. Also, Brady's first year under Ty. I really don't think I need to explain that one any further...

 

[Jerry]

Even though it is a new system, I don't think this comparison can be made. Brady and Jimmy both started as true freshmen while Crist is a junior. He has had two previous years to adjust to the speed of the college game while in practice. If he was not performing better, I would seriously be concerned. Also, Brady's first year under Ty. I really don't think I need to explain that one any further...

Also Jimmy's first year in '07 was behind one of the worst O-Lines in the history of college football.

edit: also noticed those stats above are from Quinn's Sophomore year not Frosh.

 

[mick2]

dayne has 2 years of eligibility left after this season right? any chance he stays for a fifth year?

 

[IrishinSyria]

So, can we come to a consensus on this thread?

Basically: Dayne Crist is a talented QB who could still get better. Until he improves his accuracy and consistency, the offense will not produce at its full capacity. This also holds true for every other player on offense except for Armando Allen. Until they start playing with more consistency, whether that means catching every ball, running the right routes or blocking the right man, this offense will be frustrating and need help from the D to win games.

 

[lookingdeadred]

I would assume Crist staying for his 5th yearis likely

I would assume Crist staying for his 5th yearis likely

unless he has a monster season in 2011.

dayne has 2 years of eligibility left after this season right? any chance he stays for a fifth year?

 

[lookingdeadred]

Pretty much sums it IMO

Pretty much sums it IMO

I would say that the key to becoming a great offense leis more with the OL than with Crist. Solve the OL issues, and most of Crist's issues will go away.

So, can we come to a consensus on this thread?

Basically: Dayne Crist is a talented QB who could still get better. Until he improves his accuracy and consistency, the offense will not produce at its full capacity. This also holds true for every other player on offense except for Armando Allen. Until they start playing with more consistency, whether that means catching every ball, running the right routes or blocking the right man, this offense will be frustrating and need help from the D to win games.

 

[ndcoltsfan2010]

I know that DC has been around for two years, but this is still his first year starting, and this is a new system that even Jimmy and Brady might have had a hard time adjusting to. I think the stats comparison thing simply shows that Crist is not doing that bad overall. It is almost impossible to compare because of all the different factors involved, but we need to give Crist a little bit of leniency I think. I also think as he gets more comfortable he will get better and better. There are several areas he needs to improve, but he is doing a decent job for the most part right now.

 

[mick2]

Dayne is the guy for the next couple of years so whats the point of this thread anyway? he's tied for tenth in the nation for yardage tied for 14th in the nation for tds. and is a smidge under 60% completeion pctg.

I'm a fan, so what he misses a few open passes, i think he's gonna leave a pretty good legacy at ND when he graduates