Immigration

[Polish Leppy 22]

What don’t you understand? They still pay taxes on everything they buy. I’m not leaving out anything. Haha. The women AND men work.

Show me it’s unsustainable. Undocumented workers are 3 fucking percent at most of the country’s total population. 😂. How many white peoples in this country are on welfare and subsidized healthcare?

Economic impact of illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The sales tax they pay on products they buy doesn't cover the cost of healthcare and education. You're leaving that out.

This isn't about race, but there are plenty of white people on gov subsidies. That isn't supposed to be a lifestyle or a permanent solution, but they are American citizens. The US cannot afford to take in all the world's poor on the taxpayers' dime.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

This is going to sound incredibly dumb - when you go to the doctor, what type of identification do you have to give them? I'm assuming for a subsidized program you have to register with an agency to qualify? If it's a free clinic, I'm guessing they have a check in system with a database to track your info so that if you come back they have your file on hand. This all sounds prohibitive to illegal immigrants.

I took a quick look at California's process to apply for a subsidized healthcare insurance plan, they required two forms of ID. Proof of income and proof of residency. Either option would require the person to have paid a form of tax (ie paying for the very service they are trying to use).

If the family is going through with applying for the subsidized health care, then they would also be paying into the taxes for education.

Obviously the poorest will receive the most direct benefits when it comes to subsidized healthcare/education, but for the country as a whole it is extremely beneficial to have a healthy/educated society. The funding sustainability might be more of a revisiting of tax rates.

The free clinic example is one, but California isn't the best example since they have committed to free health care for illegals. How about the people who are undocumented and show up to the ER for whatever reason? They probably don't have health insurance and are provided care by the hospital. That treatment is subsidized and they aren't turned away.

Education is different in that in the US, your property taxes pay for your K-12 public education. Which is wrong to begin with but that's a different topic. If the family is undocumented and has kids and doesn't own their home, the services they receive from the school aren't being accounted for.

 

[Bishop2b5]

The free clinic example is one, but California isn't the best example since they have committed to free health care for illegals. How about the people who are undocumented and show up to the ER for whatever reason? They probably don't have health insurance and are provided care by the hospital. That treatment is subsidized and they aren't turned away.

Education is different in that in the US, your property taxes pay for your K-12 public education. Which is wrong to begin with but that's a different topic. If the family is undocumented and has kids and doesn't own their home, the services they receive from the school aren't being accounted for.

There's a large, but mostly unrecognized additional cost to having so many illegals here. There's the additional wear & tear on infrastructure and utilities, additional policing, additional fire & emergency services, more trash removal, more classrooms & teachers, more medical facilities & personnel... more everything. Increasing the population in an area by even just 5 or 10% with mostly low paid (and often untaxed cash work) workers and their families puts a huge additional strain on such public services and infrastructure without nearly enough increase in tax revenue to cover the additional cost.

 

[Armyirish47]

He seems completely unaware that we fed ourselves just fine before millions of illegals flooded our country. I wonder how he thinks the rest of the world feeds itself without millions of illegal farm workers?

We accept that you grew up in the only town in Alabama that resembled a United Colors of Benetton ad, but when is this time period you are referring to? President Reagan amnestied millions in the 80's right so it had to be a few decades before that which would be pre Civil Rights era which would mean......

 

[Bishop2b5]

We accept that you grew up in the only town in Alabama that resembled a United Colors of Benetton ad, but when is this time period you are referring to? President Reagan amnestied millions in the 80's right so it had to be a few decades before that which would be pre Civil Rights era which would mean......

That was good! It was almost like being in 7th grade again. Savage, bro! Consider me burned.

Do you not understand that there were vastly fewer illegals in past decades than now? Lots of migrant workers came here on work visas during harvesting time and then went back home afterwards. It worked that way for decades and the crops got harvested and people fed without millions of people ignoring our immigration laws and coming here ILLEGALLY.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

The sales tax they pay on products they buy doesn't cover the cost of healthcare and education. You're leaving that out.

This isn't about race, but there are plenty of white people on gov subsidies. That isn't supposed to be a lifestyle or a permanent solution, but they are American citizens. The US cannot afford to take in all the world's poor on the taxpayers' dime.

Jfc dude read the article I posted. It proves your premise wrong and you haven’t even shown where you are getting your claim from. Provide a source of gtfoh. Goddamn haha. These people Are not a drain on our economy. As soon as they make money they spend it. They contribute hundreds of billions each year to the GDP and 65-75 percent pay into SS throughly their wages via an ITN. They generate billions in sales taxes. They consume. The aren’t taking jobs away from Americans. They are doing the jobs we don’t want to do for ow wages. They are only 3 percent of our population. You are 100% dug in. If you aren’t going to engage honestly I’m done on this. You are just wrong on this. They arent sitting around getting paid to do nothing. You are thinking of the 70 million white people on subsidized healthcare and unemployment.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Aside from any fiscal or cultural issues that may or may not be valid, do any of you understand that a lot of people simply have an issue with millions of people just saying, "To hell with your nation's laws. We're going to ignore them and just barge our way in anyway."

 

[TorontoGold]

The sales tax they pay on products they buy doesn't cover the cost of healthcare and education. You're leaving that out.

This isn't about race, but there are plenty of white people on gov subsidies. That isn't supposed to be a lifestyle or a permanent solution, but they are American citizens. The US cannot afford to take in all the world's poor on the taxpayers' dime.

How much of this "free healthcare" are the really using? It has to be much lower than their legal equivalents, yet they are paying into it.

Education costs would be paid at the same rate as similarly poor people, in that the rent they pay on their place is going to cover the property taxes.



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[Polish Leppy 22]

Jfc dude read the article I posted. It proves your premise wrong and you haven’t even shown where you are getting your claim from. Provide a source of gtfoh. Goddamn haha. These people Are not a drain on our economy. As soon as they make money they spend it. They contribute hundreds of billions each year to the GDP and 65-75 percent pay into SS throughly their wages via an ITN. They generate billions in sales taxes. They consume. The aren’t taking jobs away from Americans. They are doing the jobs we don’t want to do for ow wages. They are only 3 percent of our population. You are 100% dug in. If you aren’t going to engage honestly I’m done on this. You are just wrong on this. They arent sitting around getting paid to do nothing. You are thinking of the 70 million white people on subsidized healthcare and unemployment.

What sources or articles do you need to see that will bring you to the reality that illegal immigrants' healthcare and education for their children are entirely subsidized? And the sales taxes on whatever products/ service they purchase do not contribute whatsoever to those two areas?

I didn't say they're sitting around doing nothing or that they're taking jobs away from Americans. You came up with all that on your own. My position is having tens of millions of people here receiving services they aren't paying for is unsustainable.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

How much of this "free healthcare" are the really using? It has to be much lower than their legal equivalents, yet they are paying into it.

Education costs would be paid at the same rate as similarly poor people, in that the rent they pay on their place is going to cover the property taxes.



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I'm not the financial auditor, so you'll have to ask each state what those numbers are. Not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that their services would be lower?

Inaccurate on education. The owner of the apartment/ house pays the property taxes, the renters do not. So whether those renters have 1 child or 4, they are receiving free education.

 

[TorontoGold]

I'm not the financial auditor, so you'll have to ask each state what those numbers are. Not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that their services would be lower?

Inaccurate on education. The owner of the apartment/ house pays the property taxes, the renters do not. So whether those renters have 1 child or 4, they are receiving free education.

Because the illegal immigrants are less likely to go somewhere where they can be picked up by law enforcement.

I know how property taxes work. How does the owner get the funds to pay them....the rent. So they are indirectly paying for their education. If we are to follow the logic that renters don't directly pay property taxes then no renter pays for their share of education costs.

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[Armyirish47]

That was good! It was almost like being in 7th grade again. Savage, bro! Consider me burned.

Do you not understand that there were vastly fewer illegals in past decades than now? Lots of migrant workers came here on work visas during harvesting time and then went back home afterwards. It worked that way for decades and the crops got harvested and people fed without millions of people ignoring our immigration laws and coming here ILLEGALLY.

I can understand it if you explain to me when that time was. If we amnestied 3 million in the mid 1980s with millions more remaining and the US population was 100 million fewer at the time how big of a difference was it? I'm not looking for nostalgia for a time that didn't exist, I'm actually curious when the system you describe was how everything worked. Which decades? And what changed?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Because the illegal immigrants are less likely to go somewhere where they can be picked up by law enforcement.

I know how property taxes work. How does the owner get the funds to pay them....the rent. So they are indirectly paying for their education. If we are to follow the logic that renters don't directly pay property taxes then no renter pays for their share of education costs.

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Sounds like you're drawing a conclusion on speculation. I don't frequent hospitals often, but I've never heard of ICE officials hanging out there looking for illegals.

Yes, I would agree that renters do not pay their share of education costs, especially if that family has multiple children. The property (let's say 1200 sq ft) isn't going to be valued that high, taxes won't be that high, but a family could have multiple children living there. This leaves the school district upside down financially and that's one family. Apply that scenario to places like NYC and LA and you've got yourself in quite the pickle.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

What sources or articles do you need to see that will bring you to the reality that illegal immigrants' healthcare and education for their children are entirely subsidized? And the sales taxes on whatever products/ service they purchase do not contribute whatsoever to those two areas?

I didn't say they're sitting around doing nothing or that they're taking jobs away from Americans. You came up with all that on your own. My position is having tens of millions of people here receiving services they aren't paying for is unsustainable.

Of course… no source no evidence just an opinion. I asked you to provide a source that three percent of the population who pays billions in taxes, contributes billions to the GDP and absolutely provides 100% necessary job duties to keep our country rolling in in any way is unsustainable compared to the white people who receive said societal benefits like emergency healthcare and public schooling. I have asked twice and you won’t do it.

I have however provided at least something to aid my point and it indicates what they do contribute and necessary they are for our way of life to continue.

 

[PerthDomer]

Sounds like you're drawing a conclusion on speculation. I don't frequent hospitals often, but I've never heard of ICE officials hanging out there looking for illegals.

Yes, I would agree that renters do not pay their share of education costs, especially if that family has multiple children. The property (let's say 1200 sq ft) isn't going to be valued that high, taxes won't be that high, but a family could have multiple children living there. This leaves the school district upside down financially and that's one family. Apply that scenario to places like NYC and LA and you've got yourself in quite the pickle.

Property values in those places are largely driven by demand for renting. I live in DC with my Fiancee. Our places rent is north of 3 grand. We don't technically pay DC property tax, but our building does. If we had a kid I wouldn't consider myself a free loader...

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I can understand it if you explain to me when that time was. If we amnestied 3 million in the mid 1980s with millions more remaining and the US population was 100 million fewer at the time how big of a difference was it? I'm not looking for nostalgia for a time that didn't exist, I'm actually curious when the system you describe was how everything worked. Which decades? And what changed?

It’s a made up fantasy land where white people have always provided food and cheap labor and these invaders are taking those jobs away yet somehow food still gets to our tables. I feel like they just never realized before what these people do for our country and they can’t accept how integral migrant workers are for our success ( legal or illegal or even those who overstay their visas). 70ish percent of these people have ITIDN and pay into SS with their wages

 

[TorontoGold]

Sounds like you're drawing a conclusion on speculation. I don't frequent hospitals often, but I've never heard of ICE officials hanging out there looking for illegals.

Yes, I would agree that renters do not pay their share of education costs, especially if that family has multiple children. The property (let's say 1200 sq ft) isn't going to be valued that high, taxes won't be that high, but a family could have multiple children living there. This leaves the school district upside down financially and that's one family. Apply that scenario to places like NYC and LA and you've got yourself in quite the pickle.

Of course it's speculation, it is based in logic though. If you are thinking of going somewhere where there is a higher chance of you bumping into law enforcement you will be less likely to go there than someone who doesn't have that same fear. I don't have stats on hand to support it but I think that logic makes sense.

The value of that property would be the same if it was being lived in by the owner? How does that fall on to the renter? Property values in NYC are incredibly high? Especially if the property is an apartment. I think the issue of property taxes being tapped out would happen in a place like Gary.

 

[Wild Bill]

The value of that property would be the same if it was being lived in by the owner? How does that fall on to the renter? Property values in NYC are incredibly high? Especially if the property is an apartment. I think the issue of property taxes being tapped out would happen in a place like Gary.

The great state of Indiana caps property taxes at 1% of assessed value for your residence and 2% for rentals.

Places like Gary are funded by the rest of the state. Gary spends over 16k per student (last I checked). Munster, which is a few miles away, has some of the highest property taxes in the state and their children get half of what Gary students receive.

 

[GATTACA!]

You guys continue to use the term "immigrant" and fail to distinguish between legal and illegal lmaaooooooooo. And that has absolutely nothing to do with the federal government enforcing the laws on our books.

I disagree with your premise, but I'll play along if you can. Assuming your premise is 100% accurate, there's no justification for allowing hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants into the country every year and it's economically ubsustainable.

Not only is is sustainable, but it will be necessary if birth rates continue to drop.

 

[Irish#1]

Property values in those places are largely driven by demand for renting. I live in DC with my Fiancee. Our places rent is north of 3 grand. We don't technically pay DC property tax, but our building does. If we had a kid I wouldn't consider myself a free loader...

Ouch! Do you have any money left for beer?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Of course… no source no evidence just an opinion. I asked you to provide a source that three percent of the population who pays billions in taxes, contributes billions to the GDP and absolutely provides 100% necessary job duties to keep our country rolling in in any way is unsustainable compared to the white people who receive said societal benefits like emergency healthcare and public schooling. I have asked twice and you won’t do it.

I have however provided at least something to aid my point and it indicates what they do contribute and necessary they are for our way of life to continue.

Not sure why you're so obsessed with race but it's irrelevant here. Math is color blind. We have producers of all races, and we have non producers of all races. You keep reiterating points that I never made and it's kinda weird, bud. I didn't say they don't contribute. I said having millions (and growing by the day) getting subsidized health care and education is unsustainable.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Property values in those places are largely driven by demand for renting. I live in DC with my Fiancee. Our places rent is north of 3 grand. We don't technically pay DC property tax, but our building does. If we had a kid I wouldn't consider myself a free loader...

3k a month is brutal. I'll bet a month's salary that illegal immigrants aren't living in an apartment anywhere close to 3k a month.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Of course it's speculation, it is based in logic though. If you are thinking of going somewhere where there is a higher chance of you bumping into law enforcement you will be less likely to go there than someone who doesn't have that same fear. I don't have stats on hand to support it but I think that logic makes sense.

The value of that property would be the same if it was being lived in by the owner? How does that fall on to the renter? Property values in NYC are incredibly high? Especially if the property is an apartment. I think the issue of property taxes being tapped out would happen in a place like Gary.

That's a whole lot of speculation to draw your conclusion, and ICE officials aren't hanging out in emergency rooms. Sketchy logic in my opinion.

I don't know jack about Gary, IN but you have to realize that school districts who have higher percentage of renters are always the ones crying about being under funded and begging their state and the feds for more money. Why? Because the property taxes often times don't align with the number of kids going to the local public schools. It's always the big cities crying for more money because the renter to owner ratio is upside down.

Again, this is not a race thing. I know plenty of white, poor areas in PA I can show you. It's a property tax thing and the US funding for public education K-12 is jacked up. Illegal immigration adds to the problem when it comes to education.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Not only is is sustainable, but it will be necessary if birth rates continue to drop.

This doesn't align with Cacky's premise, which is that the country will starve if we have no illegal immigrants. If birth rates are dropping and the baby boomers are dying off, wouldn't it seem we have far fewer people to feed and then much less of a need to bring in labor from other countries???

Let's assume birth rates drop but the boomers live forever. Not sure how you justify importing millions of illegal immigrants every year, many of whom need to be subsidized by the taxpayer when we're $31 trillion in debt. I'm not anti immigration, but we cannot be the home for all the world's poor.

 

[drayer54]

This doesn't align with Cacky's premise, which is that the country will starve if we have no illegal immigrants. If birth rates are dropping and the baby boomers are dying off, wouldn't it seem we have far fewer people to feed and then much less of a need to bring in labor from other countries???

Let's assume birth rates drop but the boomers live forever. Not sure how you justify importing millions of illegal immigrants every year, many of whom need to be subsidized by the taxpayer when we're $31 trillion in debt. I'm not anti immigration, but we cannot be the home for all the world's poor.

Why do we assume that every one of the thousands of illegals crossing our currently open borders are racing to farms to pull weeds? I mean, isn’t it odd that we just assume they are all agriculture migrant workers?

 

[TorontoGold]

That's a whole lot of speculation to draw your conclusion, and ICE officials aren't hanging out in emergency rooms. Sketchy logic in my opinion.

I don't know jack about Gary, IN but you have to realize that school districts who have higher percentage of renters are always the ones crying about being under funded and begging their state and the feds for more money. Why? Because the property taxes often times don't align with the number of kids going to the local public schools. It's always the big cities crying for more money because the renter to owner ratio is upside down.

Again, this is not a race thing. I know plenty of white, poor areas in PA I can show you. It's a property tax thing and the US funding for public education K-12 is jacked up. Illegal immigration adds to the problem when it comes to education.

Of course it's speculation, but it's based in the fact that someone who is already doing something that is against law is not going to go to a place where there are going to be law enforcement officials. We'll have to move on if you still want to disagree with that.

Serious question - who pays for the property taxes on rented properties? Do they get a waiver so that no property tax gets paid? OR does the renter pay the property tax through the monthly rent payment to the landlord. The renter is paying for the property tax. The city can collect a lot more property taxes on an apartment building that has 60 apartment's vs 6 semi detached houses that would have been there.

I never made it a race thing? Where in my post did I mention race? All I've said is that illegal immigrants are often paying way more than what they're getting out of the system.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Not sure why you're so obsessed with race but it's irrelevant here. Math is color blind. We have producers of all races, and we have non producers of all races. You keep reiterating points that I never made and it's kinda weird, bud. I didn't say they don't contribute. I said having millions (and growing by the day) getting subsidized health care and education is unsustainable.

Not sure why you won’t post a source to cite your baseless assertions…. Not sure why you are hell bent to demonize 3 percent of the population when the majority of the offenders you should be upset with are not immigrants.

 

[GATTACA!]

This doesn't align with Cacky's premise, which is that the country will starve if we have no illegal immigrants. If birth rates are dropping and the baby boomers are dying off, wouldn't it seem we have far fewer people to feed and then much less of a need to bring in labor from other countries???

They aren't really related points. Yes with less people you need less food production to feed them, but you also have less workers to generate the food by the same ratio.

Also, I don't want to put words in Cack's mouth, but I'm pretty sure he isn't suggesting that people would actually be starving to death, wandering through the streets and eating out of dumpsters. But if you snapped your fingers and immediately kicked out all the illegal immigrants and didn't drastically increase the number of legal immigrants and work visas we grant you better be prepared to pay $19 for a carton of strawberries.

Let's assume birth rates drop but the boomers live forever. Not sure how you justify importing millions of illegal immigrants every year, many of whom need to be subsidized by the taxpayer when we're $31 trillion in debt. I'm not anti immigration, but we cannot be the home for all the world's poor.

If we switched to single-payer healthcare system we could give it to every citizen along with every single illegal immigrant and still save money over our current healthcare nightmare. What else are they being subsidized for?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

They aren't really related points. Yes with less people you need less food production to feed them, but you also have less workers to generate the food by the same ratio.

Also, I don't want to put words in Cack's mouth, but I'm pretty sure he isn't suggesting that people would actually be starving to death, wandering through the streets and eating out of dumpsters. But if you snapped your fingers and immediately kicked out all the illegal immigrants and didn't drastically increase the number of legal immigrants and work visas we grant you better be prepared to pay $19 for a carton of strawberries.

If we switched to single-payer healthcare system we could give it to every citizen along with every single illegal immigrant and still save money over our current healthcare nightmare. What else are they being subsidized for?

Oh they surely are related. If we have fewer people we need less workers without a doubt. There's no justification for importing millions more because our birth rate is declining.

Speaking of putting words in people's mouths, I never said anything about kicking out all the illegal immigrants.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Not sure why you won’t post a source to cite your baseless assertions…. Not sure why you are hell bent to demonize 3 percent of the population when the majority of the offenders you should be upset with are not immigrants.

I'm not demonizing anyone and you choose to ignore reality. That's fine. My original point was illegal immigrants making $20/ hr (with their families) are taking more than they're putting in when you account for healthcare and education.

You still can't seem to distinguish legal immigrants from illegal immigrants.