How can ND beat Bama?

[rtrn2glory]

On a more serious note, I think ND needs to embrace the underdog role in these type of games. Kelly has done a great job getting the team to take a workmanlike approach to each game during the regular season. Kind of a “we are who we are” approach and that works great for most games. It has made us consistent and have great success the last four seasons. We need to go more “Boise State” in these type games. Too often we just run our same shit and get out-talented and out-coached. I thought for sure we’d see an Avery Davis pass in the last game or something different. I’m not saying run a bunch of trick plays but you’ve got do do something different to get Bama “thinking” on D and not just totally prepared for what’s coming. Rest assured, they will be totally prepared if we run our same stuff. I’m not sure Kelly has it in him.

we had our chance last week to embrace the underdog role.......didn't work out there either.

 

[Free Manera]

Trigger warning - if you are optimistic about this game don't listen to the new Irish Illustrated podcast. Pretty sure I heard a "0% chance of winning" in there.

 

[Irishcop]

Trigger warning - if you are optimistic about this game don't listen to the new Irish Illustrated podcast. Pretty sure I heard a "0% chance of winning" in there.

And they would be correct. Alabama is going to absolutely boat-race ND. I hate it, but it is what it is. Alabama is just on a completely different level than ND.

 

[Free Manera]

And they would be correct. Alabama is going to absolutely boat-race ND. I hate it, but it is what it is. Alabama is just on a completely different level than ND.

They also mentioned the dreaded "ceiling." And said ND is farther away from the top 3 than they were in 2012. Just overall depressing to be honest. I think we all subconsciously think this but it is now spoken into existence.

 

[NDRock]

They also mentioned the dreaded "ceiling." And said ND is farther away from the top 3 than they were in 2012. Just overall depressing to be honest. I think we all subconsciously think this but it is now spoken into existence.

I don’t agree but either way we’re in trouble.

 

[tussin]

They also mentioned the dreaded "ceiling." And said ND is farther away from the top 3 than they were in 2012. Just overall depressing to be honest. I think we all subconsciously think this but it is now spoken into existence.

That's bullshit. ND is an elite QB (not a knock on Book) and two WRs away from being able to compete with Clemson and Bama. We could very well be there 1-2 years from now. You can't convince me otherwise.

We are wayyyyy closer than any team in the country sans Georgia. It goes:

1) Bama / Clemson
2) OSU
3) ND / Georgia
4) Oklahoma
5) Everyone else

 

[BeauBenken]

Honestly people keep talking about this team doing things that they just haven't done, but in reality, you don't just suddenly change your entire offensive playbook or personnel.


Can you add some things? Can you call plays that attack specific weaknesses of the other team? Sure.


But what you really have to do is own your identity, and execute what it is that you do better than the other team executes what they do.


Bama's strengths at their offensive skill positions will make this extraordinarily hard for our defense, but I would also say that Mac Jones not being much of a runner should help us. That is why Trevor Lawrence was able to find success. Clemson also just made big plays when they needed them, and we didn't. We crapped away most of our early opportunities and once we were off the script the offense stalled.


Remain creative with play calling and moving our personnel around. Every play we are playing with almost four tight ends on the field with our size. Use the height and size advantages we have. We need to remain physical in every aspect of the game and not shy down against them just because they're Bama. Bottle up the run game by controlling the line of scrimmage (extremely tall task against the best O-line we will see). Bracket Devonta whenever you get the chance.


It's a tall task, but what our team lacks in talent or athleticism they have, for the most part this year, made up in toughness and teamwork. That along with some creativity and intensity brought on by the coaches is how you win this game. We will not be able to play in a shootout game with Bama. Just ain't happening. Control the line of scrimmage. Avoid giving up big plays. And be willing to go the extra inch to out tough an opponent that will be trying to do the same.

 

[BeauBenken]

They also mentioned the dreaded "ceiling." And said ND is farther away from the top 3 than they were in 2012. Just overall depressing to be honest. I think we all subconsciously think this but it is now spoken into existence.

They sound like some pussies.

 

[Free Manera]

Honestly people keep talking about this team doing things that they just haven't done, but in reality, you don't just suddenly change your entire offensive playbook or personnel.


Can you add some things? Can you call plays that attack specific weaknesses of the other team? Sure.


But what you really have to do is own your identity, and execute what it is that you do better than the other team executes what they do.


Bama's strengths at their offensive skill positions will make this extraordinarily hard for our defense, but I would also say that Mac Jones not being much of a runner should help us. That is why Trevor Lawrence was able to find success. Clemson also just made big plays when they needed them, and we didn't. We crapped away most of our early opportunities and once we were off the script the offense stalled.


Remain creative with play calling and moving our personnel around. Every play we are playing with almost four tight ends on the field with our size. Use the height and size advantages we have. We need to remain physical in every aspect of the game and not shy down against them just because they're Bama. Bottle up the run game by controlling the line of scrimmage (extremely tall task against the best O-line we will see). Bracket Devonta whenever you get the chance.


It's a tall task, but what our team lacks in talent or athleticism they have, for the most part this year, made up in toughness and teamwork. That along with some creativity and intensity brought on by the coaches is how you win this game. We will not be able to play in a shootout game with Bama. Just ain't happening. Control the line of scrimmage. Avoid giving up big plays. And be willing to go the extra inch to out tough an opponent that will be trying to do the same.

That, and go for it on every 4th down.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

That, and go for it on every 4th down.

Seriously, anything beyond our own 40 may as well be 4 down territory.

 

[Free Manera]

Seriously, anything beyond our own 40 may as well be 4 down territory.

Yep. Even would go for 4th and 3 or less inside the ND 40. You have to assume Bama is gonna score every time they have the ball because that is what they did all year.

 

[Irishize]

The X-factor is always Saban in these matchups. As much as I respect Kelly, Saban is a better coach who is ruthlessly competitive and fields disciplined teams in the biggest moments.

I agree. After watching 2012 BCS CG, 2015 Fiesta Bowl, 2018 Cotton Bowl & yesterday, it’s clear that the opponents coaches are playing chess while BK continues to play checkers and announcing “We are who we are at this point”. From a macro level, he’s correct but you don’t just reproduce what your elite opponents can pick apart on film.

 

[NDRock]

I agree. After watching 2012 BCS CG, 2015 Fiesta Bowl, 2018 Cotton Bowl & yesterday, it’s clear that the opponents coaches are playing chess while BK continues to play checkers and announcing “We are who we are at this point”. From a macro level, he’s correct but you don’t just reproduce what your elite opponents can pick apart on film.

Especially when you’re outgunned. The only chance we have is getting them on their heels early and getting s couple of early scores. I doubt it happens and we’ll score 14 points and talk about how we just didn’t execute.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news:
ND is as far (or possibly further) from the top 2 as they were in 2012.

Further bad news:
ND is capped and limited with their possibilities.

Kelly/JS have "raised" the cap some (new field, new facilities, possibly a couple of players snuck in under the current academic standard (rumored).

But Clemson and Alabama are the not stalling at the top of the mountain. They are still climbing. This is an arms raise and I think we're still 5 years behind.

To those that disagree:
Thought experiment.
If all things were held equal and Kelly and Co switched with Saban and his staff...which team would be better?

My take:
We, under the current limitations, are not capable of getting further. We have to have an equal playing field - and even then have to hope that Dabo/Saban don't keep climbing the mountain as fast as we are trying to catch up.

 

[Irishize]

Ahh, no. I mean, yeah, Book could have taken some 50/50 shots and was certainly more gun shy, but the guys were not open all day. I lost count how many times Herbie and Fowler mentioned there was nothing open downfield, and there were plenty of other plays like that where they didn't have to mention it. Couple that with the struggles in pass protection given our beat up OL, it was a recipe for disaster.

I'm glad our receivers started to step up mid season, but this is not a group of world beaters. It's one of the weakest group of receivers we've fielded in awhile, our starters lack speed and separation. It's painfully obvious when you see some of the talent we've faced this year, some of our opponents have some nasty weapons that we currently lack.

Look at the first few drives. Book looked great throwing receivers open or hitting them in tight windows. Then he reverted back to pre-Nov 7 and played “not to lose” by refusing to take chances (and possible throw picks) and instead scramble out of bounds for a one yard loss. You can look at his numbers and be impressed with how efficient he was but that mostly due to patting the ball hoping someone leaked wide open. This isn’t the dredges of the ACC...Clemson’s secondary is legit and refused to let Book play backyard football. If he wants a chance to play at the next level, he needs to throw receivers open. If they don’t make the play, that’s on them.

IMO, he has to throw to a spot before his WR get out of their breaks and let the best athlete win. McKinley is not Claypool or even Boykin but he at least will now fight for a ball. Skowronek & Davis have exhibited good hands. Book HAS to let it fly b/c he has nothing to lose and if that means he throws three picks, so be it.

 

[Irishize]

They need to at least try to adjust their schemes and playbook to give different looks and avoid following their tendencies.

BK never does a good job playing the “no respect” card successfully or the players just don’t respond to it. They tried to give that impression before the ACC CG and look at the end result. Now they’re faced w/ the largest point spread against them in CFP history & not even their fan base gives them a prayer but if you don’t have as many “dudes” as the opponent...the chip on the shoulder doesn’t do much.

Throw caution to the win. Defense needs to fly around and take chances...don’t let the fear of a targeting call prevent them from being aggressive (especially if this is their last game in college).

Book needs to just throw darts as soon as the ball is snapped. Maybe he goes 10-24 w/ 3 picks. So what...at least try something.

 

[NDRock]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news:
ND is as far (or possibly further) from the top 2 as they were in 2012.

Further bad news:
ND is capped and limited with their possibilities.

Kelly/JS have "raised" the cap some (new field, new facilities, possibly a couple of players snuck in under the current academic standard (rumored).

But Clemson and Alabama are the not stalling at the top of the mountain. They are still climbing. This is an arms raise and I think we're still 5 years behind.

To those that disagree:
Thought experiment.
If all things were held equal and Kelly and Co switched with Saban and his staff...which team would be better?

My take:
We, under the current limitations, are not capable of getting further. We have to have an equal playing field - and even then have to hope that Dabo/Saban don't keep climbing the mountain as fast as we are trying to catch up.

Disagree regarding Clemson. Here’s a thought experiment, switch quarterbacks and who wins the game? I take us every time. In 2012 we looked physically overmatched, I didn’t see that on Saturday and obviously didn’t see that the first time we beat Clemson. We also were rarely dominant against the non elite teams back in 2012. We’ve dominated those teams much more recently.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

To say:
"the receivers aren't getting open" is the reason for the lack of passing game is sad.

Any time there is single coverage, regardless of how good the coverage is, you have at least a 50/50 chance of getting the completion.

Now, factor in the fact that QBs can look off a coverage, or even (gasp) lead them open...

Ian is a great great game manager. One of the best I've ever seen and I'm thankful for him. But you have to have a stud to win it all.

 

[NDRock]

To say:
"the receivers aren't getting open" is the reason for the lack of passing game is sad.

Any time there is single coverage, regardless of how good the coverage is, you have at least a 50/50 chance of getting the completion.

Now, factor in the fact that QBs can look off a coverage, or even (gasp) lead them open...

Ian is a great great game manager. One of the best I've ever seen and I'm thankful for him. But you have to have a stud to win it all.

Especially our type of receivers and TEs. They’re big bodied guys. Give them a chance.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Especially our type of receivers and TEs. They’re big bodied guys. Give them a chance.

Yes.
I was worried about WR this year, especially after KAs first foot injury pre-season. But the one area I thought for sure we'd be good at was "short yardage" passing and goal line passing given the size of our WRs and TEs.

I could not have been more wrong about that.

 

[Irishize]

To say:
"the receivers aren't getting open" is the reason for the lack of passing game is sad.

Any time there is single coverage, regardless of how good the coverage is, you have at least a 50/50 chance of getting the completion.

Now, factor in the fact that QBs can look off a coverage, or even (gasp) lead them open...

Ian is a great great game manager. One of the best I've ever seen and I'm thankful for him. But you have to have a stud to win it all.

Agreed. Go watch the NFL...receivers are never open. All they need is a half step and if Book can deliver, it’s up to the WR to make a play. Ian will never have the arm strength of Trask/Lawrence/Mac so he’s got to be surgical w/o a second thought. Throw darts; mix in some back shoulder balls & some 50/50 balls. Quit worrying about throwing a pick. Your opportunities aren’t cell phone minutes that roll over to the next game.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Disagree regarding Clemson. Here’s a thought experiment, switch quarterbacks and who wins the game? I take us every time. In 2012 we looked physically overmatched, I didn’t see that on Saturday and obviously didn’t see that the first time we beat Clemson. We also were rarely dominant against the non elite teams back in 2012. We’ve dominated those teams much more recently.

I purposely used Kelly and Saban trade, because I agree that Dabo has some stuff right now (like Venebales DC security, Trevor Lawrence Godmode) that may not last forever.

Saban, is still, a decent amount ahead of Dabo. Dabo, is close enough to pull it off (obviously) but I think there's a gap between #1 and #2 still, overall.

If both head coaches left over night, Alabama is still more set for reoccurring success.

 

[NDRock]

I purposely used Kelly and Saban trade, because I agree that Dabo has some stuff right now (like Venebales DC security, Trevor Lawrence Godmode) that may not last forever.

Saban, is still, a decent amount ahead of Dabo. Dabo, is close enough to pull it off (obviously) but I think there's a gap between #1 and #2 still, overall.

If both head coaches left over night, Alabama is still more set for reoccurring success.

Agree. Bama can and have won championships with fairly average quarterbacks. Clemson has not and I don’t think they have the talent across the board where they could.

 

[tussin]

I purposely used Kelly and Saban trade, because I agree that Dabo has some stuff right now (like Venebales DC security, Trevor Lawrence Godmode) that may not last forever.

Saban, is still, a decent amount ahead of Dabo. Dabo, is close enough to pull it off (obviously) but I think there's a gap between #1 and #2 still, overall.

If both head coaches left over night, Alabama is still more set for reoccurring success.

What is the target? That ND becomes Bama? That was never on the table.

If you put Trevor Lawrence on ND's team tomorrow, we would probably be a ~7ish point dog to Bama and would have a reasonable shot to win it all. That's the goal and we are 1-2 players away in key positions from having a puncher's chance. When we played in 2012, ND was 5-10 players at least.

 

[ND88]

ND fields very good teams, enough to put us in the conversation of top 5-10.

2 things that keep ND from being elite and/or upsetting elite programs (w frequency):

1. The fans are deeply loyal and the admin. exploits this loyalty. They slow play the progress in terms of more flexible recruiting practices and speed-track superficials well enough to promote the brand. The money has to be affected for systemic changes to occur. (ND fans would never boycott, even though we need better and more elite recruits..)

2. We don’t have a true underdog mentality. Case in point was this game versus Clemson. The smoke was blowing everywhere including Kelly listing demands of the playoff committee and Book addressing Heisman talk. That ain’t Rocky. ND entitlement is difficult to avoid when everything seems gold.

Bama addresses the first one easily so the second never arises. When was the last time you thought Alabama was an underdog? It’s almost disturbingly laughable how dominant Alabama has been when we keep rehashing the theme that we are back.

This isn’t pessimism. I like this team and I respect that we recruit players who are real student athletes. But we also need a ton more Zoriches and Jerome Buses to ever bring a chip home again.

 

[Irishize]

Agree. Bama can and have won championships with fairly average quarterbacks. Clemson has not and I don’t think they have the talent across the board where they could.

Exactly...whatever happened to Jacob Coker? AJ McCarron has always carried a clipboard.

 

[NDRock]

ND fields very good teams, enough to put us in the conversation of top 5-10.

2 things that keep ND from being elite and/or upsetting elite programs (w frequency):

1. The fans are deeply loyal and the admin. exploits this loyalty. They slow play the progress in terms of more flexible recruiting practices and speed-track superficials well enough to promote the brand. The money has to be affected for systemic changes to occur. (ND fans would never boycott, even though we need better and more elite recruits..)

2. We don’t have a true underdog mentality. Case in point was this game versus Clemson. The smoke was blowing everywhere including Kelly listing demands of the playoff committee and Book addressing Heisman talk. That ain’t Rocky. ND entitlement is difficult to avoid when everything seems gold.

Bama addresses the first one easily so the second never arises. When was the last time you thought Alabama was an underdog? It’s almost disturbingly laughable how dominant Alabama has been when we keep rehashing the theme that we are back.

This isn’t pessimism. I like this team and I respect that we recruit players who are real student athletes. But we also need a ton more Zoriches and Jerome Buses to ever bring a chip home again.

Some good points. My kids are very much into sports and my daughter just signed to play college soccer. I also know that neither have faced much adversity in their lives. Sometimes I think that shows when they play. A lot of ND kids seem to come from a two parent, loving household and are really good kids. I’d say they’ve never been the “underdog” much and ND doesn’t seem like a place that will bring the “dog” out in a lot of these players. Who knows.

 

[phork]

Football is easy when you break it down.

Run the ball.
Stop the run.
Win a lot of games.

The difference in this game was Etienne and Lawrence both had or nearly had 100 yards rushing. Not only did we not shut down Etienne we let Lawrence roam freely.

I am not saying we could have won but just looking at that box score without seeing the score you could easily tell who won.
On the flip side we had 44 yards.

Mac Jones doesn't run like Lawrence does.

For us to have a shot means power running with PA TE passes, quick slants etc. Grind the clock and eat possessions.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Football is easy when you break it down.

1) Run the ball.
2) Stop the run.
3) Win a lot of games.

The difference in this game was Etienne and Lawrence both had or nearly had 100 yards rushing. Not only did we not shut down Etienne we let Lawrence roam freely.

I am not saying we could have won but just looking at that box score without seeing the score you could easily tell who won.
On the flip side we had 44 yards.

Mac Jones doesn't run like Lawrence does.

For us to have a shot means power running with PA TE passes, quick slants etc. Grind the clock and eat possessions.

1) wrong - need passing, bigly - Source, Saban
2) wrong - need to just score more points via shootouts - source, Saban
3) wrong - need to win "all the games" (apparently people only care about NCs)

 

[Valpodoc85]

Nd has to get 7 in the red zone. This must happen early
D will need a few takeaways and we will have to bring the pressure
We need maybe 6 or 7 targeting penalties against the Alabama D
The entire Alabama offense needs food poisoning of the liquid brown variety
Maybe that would do it....