George Zimmerman Trial

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GoIrish41

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Again, you are assuming and imagining an aweful lot. Do you know where Z had his weapon holstered? Front? side? if it was on the side did it move to the front in the struggle? If TM was on top it makes it much easier to pull from your waste and bring the gun up 12 inches and fire. The other scenario that you are suggesting is not likely GZ having the weapon out while TM was on top GZ would then have to get it inside of TM's arms. Also if the gun was already out you can bet TM would have been concentrating on the gun and not throwing punches or slamming GZs head.

I didn't say that Martin slammed his head or threw any punches. Zimmerman said that and it fits his version of the story to say he pulled out the gun only after Martin was on top and beating the snot out of him. I just think his story sounds questionable.
 

drayer54

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Why is everyone assuming that TM attacked GZ? Yes we know that TM was on top of GZ when the gun was fired but that in no way means that he was the aggressor and started the fight. What if GZ starts the fight and TM just whoops his *** and then GZ shoots him. Besides GZ, who has stated that TM was the aggressor?

Let's try a link.
Zimmerman Case: The Five Principles of the Law of Self Defense

The principle of Innocence refers to the notion that a person who initiates a conflict should not later be permitted to justify his use of force as self defense. It is this principle that is captured in Florida statute 776.041. It is, however, possible for the initial aggressor of a conflict to regain his “innocence” under certain circumstances., and thereby regain his right to justifiably use force in self defense

The chase doesn't matter. The pursuit doesn't matter. The phone call doesn't matter. What matters is who laid hands on who and did the other attempt to retreat. If TM is pummeling GZ ( regardless of everything that happened before) and GZ is calling for help and trying to escape... he is 100% justified in pulling his legal gun and doing what he did.

This is where the case that the prosecution has to present gets even more difficult. Because even if GZ threw the first punch and tried to retreat while getting pummeled, he could still claim self defense. This is why both sides are going to present an argument over who was on top and exactly who was yelling help. This is why the neighbor was so damaging to the states case.
 

GoIrish41

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Again, you are assuming and imagining an aweful lot. Do you know where Z had his weapon holstered? Front? side? if it was on the side did it move to the front in the struggle? If TM was on top it makes it much easier to pull from your waste and bring the gun up 12 inches and fire. The other scenario that you are suggesting is not likely GZ having the weapon out while TM was on top GZ would then have to get it inside of TM's arms. Also if the gun was already out you can bet TM would have been concentrating on the gun and not throwing punches or slamming GZs head.

Pretty sure I read the holster was on his hip. And I'm not following how it would be easy to bring the gun up 12 inches and fire when the path of the gun from the holster around the body parts of Martin and into position to fire all while getting your head slammed into the sidewalk and punched in the face and while the person in a dominant position is also going after the gun. Can you explain what you mean?
 

Booslum31

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This case comes down to "who attacked who"?
Nobody saw GZ attack. Nobody saw GZ on top of TM. GZ gets acquitted because somebody DID see TM on top of GZ. The first two witnesses for the prosecution actually validated virtually all of GZ's account of what happen. Incredibly sad that it isn't possible to get TM's side of the story but we sure have a lot of people who believe they know his side of the story.
 

GoIrish41

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This case comes down to "who attacked who"?
Nobody saw GZ attack. Nobody saw GZ on top of TM. GZ gets acquitted because somebody DID see TM on top of GZ. The first two witnesses for the prosecution actually validated virtually all of GZ's account of what happen. Incredibly sad that it isn't possible to get TM's side of the story but we sure have a lot of people who believe they know his side of the story.

There have been three eye witnesses who say they saw GZ on top of TM. Zimmerman said himself that he was on top of TM following the shot.
 

Booslum31

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There have been three eye witnesses who say they saw GZ on top of TM. Zimmerman said himself that he was on top of TM following the shot.

Did not know that...gotta spend more time with Court TV. Thought only one saw the scuffle.
 

drayer54

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This case comes down to "who attacked who"?
Nobody saw GZ attack. Nobody saw GZ on top of TM. GZ gets acquitted because somebody DID see TM on top of GZ. The first two witnesses for the prosecution actually validated virtually all of GZ's account of what happen. Incredibly sad that it isn't possible to get TM's side of the story but we sure have a lot of people who believe they know his side of the story.

Racism and suspicious crimes like this sell. The tantrums to come after the acquittal will be ratings. Beyond a reasonable doubt.... No way. A Racist Vigilante vs a street thug? That sells man!

Had the story rang off like this....
548605_275002159278317_380741998_n.jpg


Would it be getting the attention it is getting now?
 

GoIrish41

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Did not know that...gotta spend more time with Court TV. Thought only one saw the scuffle.

To be fair, each of those other accounts was immediately after the shot was fired. The testimony you are talking about was prior to the shot. However, that testimony was less than convincing because the gentlemen who gave it said it was too dark outside to know if their were actually punches being thrown but seemed almost certain that it was Martin on top in the fight, and that it was Zimmerman yelling for help.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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To be fair, each of those other accounts was immediately after the shot was fired. The testimony you are talking about was prior to the shot. However, that testimony was less than convincing because the gentlemen who gave it said it was too dark outside to know if their were actually punches being thrown but seemed almost certain that it was Martin on top in the fight, and that it was Zimmerman yelling for help.

Wait a minute. There were still three others who testified (even the neighbor who took the pics) that saw GZ on top of TM before the shots were fired. The only one who saw Martin on top was Goode. He was credible and backed off of saying that Martin did anything to Zimmerman including punch, kick, or pin.

There is a problem here. If Zimmerman ran in with gun drawn and Martin surprised him in desperation until the gun went off, Zimmerman could be guilty of first degree and Martin may have been justified in defending himself.
 

GoIrish41

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Wait a minute. There were still three others who testified (even the neighbor who took the pics) that saw GZ on top of TM before the shots were fired. The only one who saw Martin on top was Goode. He was credible and backed off of saying that Martin did anything to Zimmerman including punch, kick, or pin.

There is a problem here. If Zimmerman ran in with gun drawn and Martin surprised him in desperation until the gun went off, Zimmerman could be guilty of first degree and Martin may have been justified in defending himself.

That is exactly the point I'm making with all of this talk about how difficult it would have been for him to draw the gun and shoot him where he did while Martin was straddling him. It appears to me that isn't a very plausible story. What is more plausible ... that the gun was already out and that may change everything everyone has been talking about on this thread.
 

Bluto

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Racism and suspicious crimes like this sell. The tantrums to come after the acquittal will be ratings. Beyond a reasonable doubt.... No way. A Racist Vigilante vs a street thug? That sells man!

Had the story rang off like this....
548605_275002159278317_380741998_n.jpg


Would it be getting the attention it is getting now?

It would have been even bigger and the Black dude would have allready gotten the chair.
 

Bluto

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Again, bottom line for me is that jackazz Zimerman was out looking for trouble with a loaded gun (premeditation) chose to persue (intent) and eventually gunned down (mudered) a minor who may or may not have been kicking his azz, however based on the photos it looks to me like he only took a punch or two to the nose. Total punk. Dude deserves to be in prison for the rest of his life.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Again, bottom line for me is that jackazz Zimerman was out looking for trouble with a loaded gun (premeditation) chose to persue (intent) and eventually gunned down (mudered) a minor who may or may not have been kicking his azz, however based on the photos it looks to me like he only took a punch or two to the nose. Total punk. Dude deserves to be in prison for the rest of his life.

Who runs into a dark alley? Someone who forgot to buy batteries and someone who forgot they had a gun? Hail no! 9,999 out of 10,000 would draw that weapon. GZ ain't the 10,000th!
 

jmurphy75

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That is exactly the point I'm making with all of this talk about how difficult it would have been for him to draw the gun and shoot him where he did while Martin was straddling him. It appears to me that isn't a very plausible story. What is more plausible ... that the gun was already out and that may change everything everyone has been talking about on this thread.

Oh my god I think you broke the case! What deductive reasoning you guys have, NO where in the entire case has it ever been thought that GZ ran in with his gun drawn. For people that are high up on their horses about pre judging, and condeming GZ for basically doing the same thing, I find it hypocritical that some of you sit behind your keyboard and write half of the **** posted on this thread. First off none of you can come close to knowing how either felt or what exactly happened that night....so get a grip and stop trying to play Nancy Drew with all of your brilliant scenarios.
 

pkt77242

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Oh my god I think you broke the case! What deductive reasoning you guys have, NO where in the entire case has it ever been thought that GZ ran in with his gun drawn. For people that are high up on their horses about pre judging, and condeming GZ for basically doing the same thing, I find it hypocritical that some of you sit behind your keyboard and write half of the **** posted on this thread. First off none of you can come close to knowing how either felt or what exactly happened that night....so get a grip and stop trying to play Nancy Drew with all of your brilliant scenarios.

Just to point out the only person who could tell us if GZ pulled the gun during the chase is now dead, so it is impossible to know either way. Also if you don't want to read people's opinions don't click on the ****ing thread. This is not a news site, so you can't be clicking on it to read the latest news on the trial. Thanks and have a great night.
 

jmurphy75

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Just to point out the only person who could tell us if GZ pulled the gun during the chase is now dead, so it is impossible to know either way. Also if you don't want to read people's opinions don't click on the ****ing thread. This is not a news site, so you can't be clicking on it to read the latest news on the trial. Thanks and have a great night.
Hey genius I don't need to click on the thread to see whats going on ....I live there. I can appreciate everyone's opinions on the subject and have been discussing the topic since this thread started....nice of you to finally join and add your 2 cents BTW. it's just getting a little crowded with what if's and conjecture as to what happened. Especially from some that don't have the slightest idea and are just going on news reports. I saw someone say GZ was running into a dark alley.....OK this isn't NYC it's a gated community. As to the discussion it is interesting to hear everyone's views and not argue but discuss which I've enjoyed but when you have people posting outlandish ideas of what they are sure of what happened or that GZ is a gun toting biggot without knowing the man is every bit as wrong as calling TM a thug dope addict that had nothing but a troubled past. So next time you want to pipe off try reading some of the thread or get a little educated on the subject before you come at me bro.
 

GoIrish41

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Hey genius I don't need to click on the thread to see whats going on ....I live there. I can appreciate everyone's opinions on the subject and have been discussing the topic since this thread started....nice of you to finally join and add your 2 cents BTW. it's just getting a little crowded with what if's and conjecture as to what happened. Especially from some that don't have the slightest idea and are just going on news reports. I saw someone say GZ was running into a dark alley.....OK this isn't NYC it's a gated community. As to the discussion it is interesting to hear everyone's views and not argue but discuss which I've enjoyed but when you have people posting outlandish ideas of what they are sure of what happened or that GZ is a gun toting biggot without knowing the man is every bit as wrong as calling TM a thug dope addict that had nothing but a troubled past. So next time you want to pipe off try reading some of the thread or get a little educated on the subject before you come at me bro.

oh, you live there? why didn't you say that in the first place. Obviously living there gives you special powers of observation that can explain inconsistencies in Zimmerman's testimony. Since you live there, why don't you go talk to the eye witnesses and ask them why none of them saw the same thing. which is kind of strange, because they all live there too. are they editing important pieces out of the live feed that is going to the rest of the nation and only showing those bits on the local news where you live? is that why living there means you know more than the rest of us? It is not really that outlandish to question how exactly Zimmerman managed to get the gun that martin was in a better position to get and at the same time his head was being bashed into the sidewalk and he was getting punched in the face 24 times. nobody who isn't Zimmerman or Martin knew what exactly happened and the only account we have heard is the one from the guy trying to beat a murder rap, so obviously we should just take his story at face value like you, because after all he lives there too. Zimmerman had every reason to create a story that made him look like the victim. everything he said should and will be questioned in the case. you can expect that those questions will be discussed here too, so if you don't want to read about what people are thinking, I suggest you just follow your local news reports and stop lashing out at folks on here.

oh, and the case isn't over. when Zimmerman takes the stand (which is a if) I guarantee that this discussion about whether the gun was drawn beforehand will be part of the case.
 
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IrishLax

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Again, bottom line for me is that jackazz Zimerman was out looking for trouble with a loaded gun (premeditation) chose to persue (intent) and eventually gunned down (mudered) a minor who may or may not have been kicking his azz, however based on the photos it looks to me like he only took a punch or two to the nose. Total punk. Dude deserves to be in prison for the rest of his life.

It's been rehashed many times that Zimmerman was an idiot for following Martin. And I tend to agree with this on a lot of levels.

At the same time... someone who doesn't live in a gated community walking around said community alone in the rain at night is "suspicious" 10 out of 10 times. Race, gender, age, etc. is irrelevant... it's suspicious no matter who the person is. And taking off running when you realize you've been spotted is also suspicious behavior.

So it's pretty darn comical to me to hear people act like the only explanation for Zimmerman's actions is that he was some crazy bigot "premeditating" (as you put it) to murder this kid. That's intellectually dishonest. There are dozens of other scenarios that are far more plausible that revolve around him acting more as a concerned home owner exercising poor judgement than as a lunatic racist vigilante looking for trouble.
 

IrishLax

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And gun be drawn matters A LOT. If Zimmerman approached Martin with a gun drawn then Martin (legally) basically had every right to defend himself and the entire self-defense argument for Zimmerman is basically torpedoed. It's not a minor detail in the least.

For Zimmerman to be acquitted he needs to convince the jury of two things and two things only:
1. That he was acting in self-defense
2. That he reasonably feared he his life/health.

To point #2, if he can convince the jury that he was getting his butt kicked and that Martin went for the gun in his holster then that goes a LONG way towards acquittal. If the gun is drawn when he approaches Martin, he's getting convicted almost assuredly. Not small potatoes.
 

GoIrish41

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And gun be drawn matters A LOT. If Zimmerman approached Martin with a gun drawn then Martin (legally) basically had every right to defend himself and the entire self-defense argument for Zimmerman is basically torpedoed. It's not a minor detail in the least.

For Zimmerman to be acquitted he needs to convince the jury of two things and two things only:
1. That he was acting in self-defense
2. That he reasonably feared he his life/health.

To point #2, if he can convince the jury that he was getting his butt kicked and that Martin went for the gun in his holster then that goes a LONG way towards acquittal. If the gun is drawn when he approaches Martin, he's getting convicted almost assuredly. Not small potatoes.

absolutely. the prosecution would be performing malpractice if they didn't bring up this question. they will almost certainly question Zimmerman's account of pulling the gun while martin was sitting on top of him pounding on him.
 

pkt77242

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Hey genius I don't need to click on the thread to see whats going on ....I live there. I can appreciate everyone's opinions on the subject and have been discussing the topic since this thread started....nice of you to finally join and add your 2 cents BTW. it's just getting a little crowded with what if's and conjecture as to what happened. Especially from some that don't have the slightest idea and are just going on news reports. I saw someone say GZ was running into a dark alley.....OK this isn't NYC it's a gated community. As to the discussion it is interesting to hear everyone's views and not argue but discuss which I've enjoyed but when you have people posting outlandish ideas of what they are sure of what happened or that GZ is a gun toting biggot without knowing the man is every bit as wrong as calling TM a thug dope addict that had nothing but a troubled past. So next time you want to pipe off try reading some of the thread or get a little educated on the subject before you come at me bro.

Um, you need some help. When did I say any of that? How about you learn how to read before posting. Also what the Hell else are you going to do besides the what if conjectures. There is so little that is factually known in this case. Also coming at you bro? What are you a 14 year old HS student?
 

pkt77242

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It's been rehashed many times that Zimmerman was an idiot for following Martin. And I tend to agree with this on a lot of levels.

At the same time... someone who doesn't live in a gated community walking around said community alone in the rain at night is "suspicious" 10 out of 10 times. Race, gender, age, etc. is irrelevant... it's suspicious no matter who the person is. And taking off running when you realize you've been spotted is also suspicious behavior.

So it's pretty darn comical to me to hear people act like the only explanation for Zimmerman's actions is that he was some crazy bigot "premeditating" (as you put it) to murder this kid. That's intellectually dishonest. There are dozens of other scenarios that are far more plausible that revolve around him acting more as a concerned home owner exercising poor judgement than as a lunatic racist vigilante looking for trouble.

I completely agree that he probably isn't some crazy bigot. I do think that he was probably overzealous do to what had been happening in his community lately. From what I have read, I don't think he deserves 2nd degree murder, and I don't have any doubt that TM is dead because GZ as you put it "exercised bad judgment" but the truth is that it will be hard to find him guilty of 2nd degree murder. I do think he would be screwed in a civil trial though.
 

jmurphy75

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Um, you need some help. When did I say any of that? How about you learn how to read before posting. Also what the Hell else are you going to do besides the what if conjectures. There is so little that is factually known in this case. Also coming at you bro? What are you a 14 year old HS student?

Like I said in my PM this wasn't all directed at you, read some earlier post not just bthe last page and you'll see what I was talikng about.....Jameson was also involved
 
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Bogtrotter07

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It's been rehashed many times that Zimmerman was an idiot for following Martin. And I tend to agree with this on a lot of levels.

At the same time... someone who doesn't live in a gated community walking around said community alone in the rain at night is "suspicious" 10 out of 10 times. Race, gender, age, etc. is irrelevant... it's suspicious no matter who the person is. And taking off running when you realize you've been spotted is also suspicious behavior.

So it's pretty darn comical to me to hear people act like the only explanation for Zimmerman's actions is that he was some crazy bigot "premeditating" (as you put it) to murder this kid. That's intellectually dishonest. There are dozens of other scenarios that are far more plausible that revolve around him acting more as a concerned home owner exercising poor judgement than as a lunatic racist vigilante looking for trouble.

I agree with most of your points. In fact if you notice LAX I repped you. But I am using your posts as a starting point.

Walking around: Here is where racism and classism comes in; if you had a kid from in Miami, come out to the burbs this may not be suspicious behavior in the least. Two good examples from where I live. I live off a major east-west surface street in the Greater Toledo area. On the north side it is Toledo past my neighborhood until the streets name changes. On the south side for the last mile or so it is Maumee and then becomes unincorporated Springfield Township. The south side which has less restrictive zoning has apartments and condos. The north side has mostly single family dwellings. The apartments increase as you move west on this road, into larger and larger buildings with more units. Most of these went section 8 when the Bush administration offered welfare to the wealthy. As a result there are lower income people living in these units that had been originally touted as "luxury." No problem. And by the way, the crime rate has not gone up. But what you see is more people walking day and night. Why? They don't have cars; how else are they going to get somewhere? Now when teenagers from my neighborhood go out, they have their own cars, or borrow the family car. When teens from these other areas go out they walk, go out with someone who has a car, or walk to the bus stop. Any of these configurations look unusual to people that have lived in the area for a while, and most seem threatening because they are different, but really are not, (threatening.)

Also, I had a friend invite me down to the Old West End. It was a former area of wealth with renowned Victorian houses of historical significance, now within the core of the inner city. I have a friend that operates one as a concert house for improve and eclectic musical performances. Long story short; I have tested by counts repeatedly. More people walk in ones and two's in that neighborhood at night and late at night, than in my or any suburban neighborhood that has a "safer reputation."


Scenario. Racial bigotry is the first thing that comes up for most people with this case, why? Because the media and others have planted it there. How do you think a 'mind reader' works? All those amazing tricks are suggestion, the illusionist plants the number or image in the mind of the subject so skillfully that the subject doesn't realize it and thinks that the image or number was their own, not planted there by the performer, But it is planted by the performer, because that is the only way they could know it!

This is how our opinions go about anything captured in the media. There was a good HBO show, Newsroom episode on that just recently. I couldn't watch the episode, because I have done everything possible in life to get away from a corporate conference room, so watching the bickering turns my stomach, even if it is a good show! In this show, a character took a look at Nancy Grace's commentary on the Casey Anthony trial.

This character showed that 98% of everything on the Grace show was window-dressing, bull-shiit designed to increase ratings. He made the point that it is the media's job to throw out issues that the viewer may relate to emotionally, and pique their interest, but never make the user feel like he isn't right and doesn't know something. Therefore, you will never learn anything of importance from the pandering media. This is the biggest truth I have seen on television in a long time.

Getting back to it, I did a little research on this case. Remember last Friday when the experts all thought that the defense was bolstered by the testimony of the witnesses? That is bull shiit. They were doing the ratings. Ratings are made in this case by rooting for the poor underdog. The truth is there is a whole lot of the case wrapped up in other testimony about behaviors and personality, and a lot wrapped up in the science of gunshot wounds.

But getting back to it, I am the one who made statement about running into a dark area after someone you thought was suspicious enough to chase, and forgetting at two critical times that you had a fire arm. (GZ delighted in his weapons.) The better the neighborhood, the less likely you are to chase someone that doesn't belong there. It is the cornered dog argument. The more you trap a dog, the more cornered he feels, the more you feel the teeth. There is no way that GZ could have had any inkling whether the hooded figure could have had a gun tucked in his waste band or not. NO EFFIN WAY! You don't chase anyone into the darkness. Here is why.

Two people going into the darkness, the first has all the advantage. He has seconds for his eyes to adjust and he turns and has seconds to conceal himself. The second persons outline is silhouetted by the area of higher light presenting a perfect target, and their eyes have had time to adjust. Think about it. Anyone who would do this is either stupid, lying, dead, or a future statistic.
.
 
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pkt77242

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Like I said in my PM this wasn't all directed at you, read some earlier post not just bthe last page and you'll see what I was talikng about.....Jameson was also involved

Not a problem, it was partly my fault for getting defensive as well.
 

MJ12666

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absolutely. the prosecution would be performing malpractice if they didn't bring up this question. they will almost certainly question Zimmerman's account of pulling the gun while martin was sitting on top of him pounding on him.

You realize that Zimmerman does not have to testify and unless the prosecution can produce any witnesses that can repudiate the testimony of the individual who testified Friday morning, the man who basically corroborated Zimmerman's statement to the police, I can't believe that the defense attorney will put Zimmerman on the stand. However, even if Zimmerman does testify, all he will need to do is repeat what he told the police (at least he better or he will convicted for sure), which basically is that Martin was on top of him, beating him, that he called for help, and as a last resort shot Martin because he feared for his life). Now juries can be tricky but right now the prosecution's case is looking a little weak.
 

jmurphy75

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I agree with most of your points. In fact if you notice LAX I repped you. But I am using your posts as a starting point.

Walking around: Here is where racism and classism comes in; if you had a kid from in Miami, come out to the burbs this may not be suspicious behavior in the least. Two good examples from where I live. I live off a major east-west surface street in the Greater Toledo area. On the north side it is Toledo past my neighborhood until the streets name changes. On the south side for the last mile or so it is Maumee and then becomes unincorporated Springfield Township. The south side which has less restrictive zoning has apartments and condos. The north side has mostly single family dwellings. The apartments increase as you move west on this road, into larger and larger buildings with more units. Most of these went section 8 when the Bush administration offered welfare to the wealthy. As a result there are lower income people living in these units that had been originally touted as "luxury." No problem. And by the way, the crime rate has not gone up. But what you see is more people walking day and night. Why? They don't have cars; how else are they going to get somewhere? Now when teenagers from my neighborhood go out, they have their own cars, or borrow the family car. When teens from these other areas go out they walk, go out with someone who has a car, or walk to the bus stop. Any of these configurations look unusual to people that have lived in the area for a while, and most seem threatening because they are different, but really are not, (threatening.)

Also, I had a friend invite me down to the Old West End. It was a former area of wealth with renowned Victorian houses of historical significance, now within the core of the inner city. I have a friend that operates one as a concert house for improve and eclectic musical performances. Long story short; I have tested by counts repeatedly. More people walk in ones and two's in that neighborhood at night and late at night, than in my or any suburban neighborhood that has a "safer reputation."


Scenario. Racial bigotry is the first thing that comes up for most people with this case, why? Because the media and others have planted it there. How do you think a 'mind reader' works? All those amazing tricks are suggestion, the illusionist plants the number or image in the mind of the subject so skillfully that the subject doesn't realize it and thinks that the image or number was their own, not planted there by the performer, But it is planted by the performer, because that is the only way they could know it!

This is how our opinions go about anything captured in the media. There was a good HBO show, Newsroom episode on that just recently. I couldn't watch the episode, because I have done everything possible in life to get away from a corporate conference room, so watching the bickering turns my stomach, even if it is a good show! In this show, a character took a look at Nancy Grace's commentary on the Casey Anthony trial.

This character showed that 98% of everything on the Grace show was window-dressing, bull-shiit designed to increase ratings. He made the point that it is the media's job to throw out issues that the viewer may relate to emotionally, and pique their interest, but never make the user feel like he isn't right and doesn't know something. Therefore, you will never learn anything of importance from the pandering media. This is the biggest truth I have seen on television in a long time.

Getting back to it, I did a little research on this case. Remember last Friday when the experts all thought that the defense was bolstered by the testimony of the witnesses? That is bull shiit. They were doing the ratings. Ratings are made in this case by rooting for the poor underdog. The truth is there is a whole lot of the case wrapped up in other testimony about behaviors and personality, and a lot wrapped up in the science of gunshot wounds.

But getting back to it, I am the one who made statement about running into a dark area after someone you thought was suspicious enough to chase, and forgetting at two critical times that you had a fire arm. (GZ delighted in his weapons.) The better the neighborhood, the less likely you are to chase someone that doesn't belong there. It is the cornered dog argument. The more you trap a dog, the more cornered he feels, the more you feel the teeth. There is no way that GZ could have had any inkling whether the hooded figure could have had a gun tucked in his waste band or not. NO EFFIN WAY! You don't chase anyone into the darkness. Here is why.

Two people going into the darkness, the first has all the advantage. He has seconds for his eyes to adjust and he turns and has seconds to conceal himself. The second persons outline is silhouetted by the area of higher light presenting a perfect target, and their eyes have had time to adjust. Think about it. Anyone who would do this is either stupid, lying, dead, or a future statistic.
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Bogs, I can kind of see what you are trying to get at but in this case the walking in the rain in their neighborhood is a totally different story. That specific neighborhood had had a long series of crimes that were to have been mostly committed by people that lived in the surrounding bad area. The gated community this took place in also was a common cut thru from the "bad neighborhood" to the convenience store. There is a history of complaints to the HOA to fence or gate the area that allowed for this to happen. So someone walking in the rain at night (that takes off running) does not scream I belong here. As for the heading into the dark to chase someone it's not a movie where you run from a lit street into a pitch black dark alley, the area was somewhat lit it wasn't just the amount of light that obscured the witnesses view it was the rain as well.
 

ND NYC

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Bogs, I can kind of see what you are trying to get at but in this case the walking in the rain in their neighborhood is a totally different story. That specific neighborhood had had a long series of crimes that were to have been mostly committed by people that lived in the surrounding bad area. The gated community this took place in also was a common cut thru from the "bad neighborhood" to the convenience store. There is a history of complaints to the HOA to fence or gate the area that allowed for this to happen. So someone walking in the rain at night (that takes off running) does not scream I belong here. As for the heading into the dark to chase someone it's not a movie where you run from a lit street into a pitch black dark alley, the area was somewhat lit it wasn't just the amount of light that obscured the witnesses view it was the rain as well.

oh i get it, now kids taking short cuts home are consdiered such a threat to public saftety that neighborhood-watch-mall-cop-vigilante wannabees with no law enforcement training carrying guns can approach them without cause and shoot them if they dont cooperate.

question: was GZWannabee wearing a security uniform of some sort? did his vehicle have any markings, lights etc on it. in other words would TM have known he was some sort of security guard by the looks of his uniform/patrol truck?
 

jmurphy75

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oh i get it, now kids taking short cuts home are consdiered such a threat to public saftety that neighborhood-watch-mall-cop-vigilante wannabees with no law enforcement training carrying guns can approach them without cause and shoot them if they dont cooperate.

question: was GZWannabee wearing a security uniform of some sort? did his vehicle have any markings, lights etc on it. in other words would TM have known he was some sort of security guard by the looks of his uniform/patrol truck?
Here we go again...another one with the informative post that just decided to join the party. First off buddy know a little bit about what your talking about before you pipe off. If that's your informed opinion then you're welcome to it but don't start getting pissy with me, I'm just trying to shine a little light on the neighborhood and surrounding area. By the way do some research on violent crime in Sanford and specifically juvenile violent crime. I never said TM was up to no good or that GZ following him was a good idea but don't paint this to be a vigilante that cold bloodedly gunned down a kid taking a short cut home from school.
 
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