Foreign Policy

[ab2cmiller]

Huge failure by the Israeli intelligence community to get caught off guard on such a historic date. The web of this region will never be untangled. Israel is in a tough position right now due to the hostages and Hamas being able to hide amongst the gen pop. They really put Israel in a tough spot regarding the response. There will be collateral damages but I think that was part of the plan quite frankly.

This is the issue that needs to be answered. Very little attention being given to it yet (at least internationally). Lots of potential excuses being thrown out with very little real information.

Saw an interview between an Brett Weinstein and an independent writer who actually served in the Israeli army quite a while ago. She said that when she served on the border they would constantly be notified (by individuals monitoring sensors and cameras) to check out concerns along the border. Things as small as a cat. Given her experience, she basically said her mind can't comprehend how they breached so many areas of the border AND that it took HOURS for the Israeli army to respond.

 

[ulukinatme]

Can you point to any legitimate part of any of my posts that is anti-semtic at all? If you're going to say "at worst antisemitic" then please share something that you believe hints at that.

Like I've said before, Palestinians have been given terrible leadership where Hamas has been allowed to fester. Israeli leadership legitimized them and propped them up with they could have allowed for a more moderate opposition.

There is no legitimate inspirational figure because the Israeli government hasn't allowed for there to be one. I am only arguing for basic human rights to be given to Palestinians, if that is antisemitic then say it.

Also - I will say it's an interesting time to take a shot at me when you have Ulukinatme calling for Palestinians to lose all right to their land, and Blazers comparing me with Hamas. But, go on and lecture me on hate speech. If you're going to hint at anti-Semitic comments you'll have to bring proof. I know the trailer park fellas will lap up anything that takes a shot at me.

@ulukinatme don't be a coward- use your words and tell me why I should be booed. You want to respond to my posts back to you that I made in good faith, of have you entered the Blazer/Turtle spectrum?

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What are you babbling about? What are you calling me out for? When have I said you should be booed? When did I call for Palestinians to lose all right to their land in this thread? This is a really weird strawman you've got going on.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket

“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

 

[Blazers46]

Where did I say the beheaders should be allowed to live? Can you at least point to where I've said that? Wild to throw out these accusations without any shred of proof.

With you, I am always going to be on the moral high ground.

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Use logic and reason. You are asking for a shared state. Jews to share land with a religion/people that live an order that condones the beheadings. We get a shared state, Hamas and extremism doesn’t go away. This is not a relationship that can be fixed with pen. Open the gates, more people will die.

 

[Blazers46]

Wrong. Jews have existed and were integrated into society all over the Middle East for thousands of years.

Man you all need to crack open some history books for fucks sake.

You are right, Jews were integrated all over the Middle East. It often didn’t work out well. That’s like saying Indians integrated into society when the Europeans took over. You’re missing a lot of context.

 

[TorontoGold]

Israel has not occupied Gaza for almost 20 years. Hamas was elected by the Palestinians. There is no voice of peace in the Palestinian movement - not from Gaza, not from the West Bank, not from Lebanon or Iran. The “moderates” of Fatah praised the killings of this past weekend. Again, I tell you… there are no good guys in this group. They want to kill Jews and this is a stated goal. It’s been the case since before Israel when there were similar instances of massacre. These are all facts.

I find the problem with your framing is that you assign absolutely no agency to the Palestinians. Hamas is in leadership? Well that’s obviously Israels fault! Hamas states that there is no diplomatic solution that doesn’t end with dead Jews? Well, it’s Israel’s fault that those sentiments exist. Palestinians in Gaza living in squalor? Obviously Israel’s fault! Civilian casualties despite roof knocking and public evac notices? Doesn’t matter still Israel’s fault.

You keep referencing an “apartheid” state of Israel. Yet, Israel is 20% Muslim and has a Muslim Supreme Court Justice. Is there a single Jew that is accepted in Palestinian society? That’s not a rhetorical, name one person.

Maybe all of your perspectives are coming from a strict neo-liberal worldview that I just can’t agree with, but at a certain point anti-Zionism sounds a lot like anti-semitism.

I have not said Hamas is good at all? Stop with these false equivalencies.

Agency to the Palestinians - I have stated that Hamas is a islamic fundamentalist radical group that are terrorists? Is that not strong enough?

The conditions that Israel has fostered has lead to Hamas. After they deal with Hamas (I'll use bigly tough words - execute them like dogs), then they should look to repair their relationships with the Palestinians.

Again - please stop equating all Palestinians to Hamas. Oh thank god! They blew their roof off to let them know they're going to level their house, how nice lol. One of the only places in the world that has a beach and you can't leave by boat, even in Somalia you can escape by boat. Yeah Palestinians control Gaza, except for the land/air/sea blockades, electricity sold by Israel (after the Gaza grid got bombed), 4% of the water is drinkable - can't get any equipment in oh well! Literally chips are not allowed in. It's an open air prison.

I've named many more qualified people and organizations than myself who consider it an Apartheid. I work with both Palestinian and Israeli people at work and we eat lunch regularly together - does that count?

Neoliberalism - um? When I have ever argued for increasing privatization/deregulation? You know I'm a progressive right? If you want to walk back the anti-semitism claims go ahead.

What are you babbling about? What are you calling me out for? When have I said you should be booed? When did I call for Palestinians to lose all right to their land in this thread? This is a really weird strawman you've got going on.

Babbling? lmao you can't even recall what you've done/posted.

1) You booed me on post #802 - is that not you?

2) Weird strawman - look at you post below, that's you right?

Palestine refuses to do anything about Hamas. They allow terrorist attacks to be launched from civilian locations, trying to goad the Israelis into retaliation so they look like the bad guys for "attacking civilians." Hamas has been allowed in the past to spread antisemitism propaganda on TV not just to adults, but on children's programs. They've indoctrinated children to hate Jews and fostered a desire to kill them. Palestine should lose all claim to those lands.

Use logic and reason. You are asking for a shared state. Jews to share land with a religion/people that live an order that condones the beheadings. We get a shared state, Hamas and extremism doesn’t go away. This is not a relationship that can be fixed with pen. Open the gates, more people will die.

There's no magic wand solution. Hang Hamas and get rid of them. Provide basic human rights to Palestinians and it will be a lot harder for radicals to poison the well. Doesn't seem like a crazy idea.

 

[ulukinatme]

Babbling? lmao you can't even recall what you've done/posted.

1) You booed me on post #802 - is that not you?

2) Weird strawman - look at you post below, that's you right?

Fair, I looked through this thread because I didn't remember writing that here and you went to another thread to pull it. I don't remember writing it, but I'll stand behind it. Palestine refuses to do anything about Hamas, we've invaded other countries in the past for allowing terrorists to operate, so I wouldn't blame Israel if they went in to take out the problem. Countries have been invaded and/or lost their lands for allowing such atrocities. If Canada was operating with a large terrorist organization in it's ranks and they came across raping, murdering, and kidnapping our people I would expect we'd invade as well. Do you expect them to turn the other cheek?

You're butthurt because I booed you as a reaction? You said you're always going to have the high moral ground with another poster. You don't think that comes off as rather egotistical and closed minded?

 

[Sea Turtle]

You are right, Jews were integrated all over the Middle East. It often didn’t work out well. That’s like saying Indians integrated into society when the Europeans took over. You’re missing a lot of context.

It would be much easier to just allow the Palestinian Arabs to integrate into he surrounding Arab nations. However, the Arab nations refuse to take them. And the ones whoo are in those nations are forced to live in refugee camps by their host countries. Some real brotherly love there.

Gaza is not a refugee camp. There are refugee camps in there though. The Palestinians would love to leave them, however, their fellow Palestinians refuse to let them leave.

 

[TorontoGold]

Fair, I looked through this thread because I didn't remember writing that here and you went to another thread to pull it. I don't remember writing it, but I'll stand behind it. Palestine refuses to do anything about Hamas, we've invaded other countries in the past for allowing terrorists to operate, so I wouldn't blame Israel if they went in to take out the problem. Countries have been invaded and/or lost their lands for allowing such atrocities. If Canada was operating with a large terrorist organization in it's ranks and they came across raping, murdering, and kidnapping our people I would expect we'd invade as well. Do you expect them to turn the other cheek?

You're butthurt because I booed you as a reaction? You said you're always going to have the high moral ground with another poster. You don't think that comes off as rather egotistical and closed minded?

I don't have an issue with them taking out Hamas, I have an issue with the collateral damage to innocent civilians.

I'm "butthurt" because that poster compared me to Hamas, and me chiding them back was booed lol. Do you think that's an appropriate thing to do? Being more upset that I told someone I'm on higher moral ground than them after they compared me to Hamas is quite telling. You'd rather be upset at me than them.

 

[ulukinatme]

I'm "butthurt" because that poster compared me to Hamas, and me chiding them back was booed lol. Do you think that's an appropriate thing to do? Being more upset that I told someone I'm on higher moral ground than them after they compared me to Hamas is quite telling. You'd rather be upset at me than them.

Some posters here think you may not be too fond of Jews based on your replies. Those aren't my words and I don't have an opinion on that, but maybe that will grant some clarity. Emotions are rather high right now, and I'm sure a lot of family men feel strongly about this situation because they feel for what Israeli families are going through.

 

[calvegas04]

I don't have an issue with them taking out Hamas, I have an issue with the collateral damage to innocent civilians.

What would be the best tactic for this as they operate within homes/schools/mosque. Hamas doesn't have military bases, they hide within the population.

 

[TorontoGold]

Some posters here think you may not be too fond of Jews based on your replies. Those aren't my words and I don't have an opinion on that, but maybe that will grant some clarity. Emotions are rather high right now, and I'm sure a lot of family men feel strongly about this situation because they feel for what Israeli families are going through.

Which posts have taken any shots at Jewish people? If you are going to hint at me being "not too fond of Jews" please provide examples.

I have good friends who have their family members that are currently hospitalized, I check in with them regularly on the status of their loved ones. I am very much in tune with their suffering. My friend's brother who actually worked with us this past summer suffered injuries and I've personally reached out to him to check in on him. Would you consider that someone who may not be too fond of the Jews? Would you consider someone who spent the past couple of weeks assisting Hasidic jews with tasks they can't do while observing the high holy days to not be fond?

Do you consider that to be the actions of someone who's not too fond of the Jews? Yes or no.

My criticisms are for the Israeli government, not the Jewish religion. I will not paint a group of people with the brush of the actions of the few. I ask that you not do the same with the Palestinian people.

 

[Irish#1]

No one posting here is in favor of any collateral damage, but there are some instances where there are no other options. Going door to door asking if there are any Hamas hiding in their home isn't going to work and only increases the chances of even a greater number of deaths.

 

[Blazers46]

Which posts have taken any shots at Jewish people? If you are going to hint at me being "not too fond of Jews" please provide examples.

I have good friends who have their family members that are currently hospitalized, I check in with them regularly on the status of their loved ones. I am very much in tune with their suffering. My friend's brother who actually worked with us this past summer suffered injuries and I've personally reached out to him to check in on him. Would you consider that someone who may not be too fond of the Jews? Would you consider someone who spent the past couple of weeks assisting Hasidic jews with tasks they can't do while observing the high holy days to not be fond?

Do you consider that to be the actions of someone who's not too fond of the Jews? Yes or no.

My criticisms are for the Israeli government, not the Jewish religion. I will not paint a group of people with the brush of the actions of the few. I ask that you not do the same with the Palestinian people.

Your anecdotal stories mean nothing on this board, at least that’s what you tell us when you decide to troll around and parade like the smartest guy in the room. I have actual family with the actual businesses and the work in the actual government and Israel. I have stayed with them when I went to visit. I honestly didn’t bring that up until now just because I knew your dumb ass would make a dumb ass comment about antidotal bullshit. You have always shown in indifference to religion. You have went out of your way to even criticize a recent movie that was pushed by a lot of Christian churches. You said you want a shared state, which would be detrimental to the Jewish people. Who would’ve saw that coming from you, everyone.

 

[TorontoGold]

Your anecdotal stories mean nothing on this board, at least that’s what you tell us when you decide to troll around and parade like the smartest guy in the room. I have actual family with the actual businesses and the work in the actual government and Israel. I have stayed with them when I went to visit. I honestly didn’t bring that up until now just because I knew your dumb ass would make a dumb ass comment about antidotal bullshit. You have always shown in indifference to religion. You have went out of your way to even criticize a recent movie that was pushed by a lot of Christian churches. You said you want a shared state, which would be detrimental to the Jewish people. Who would’ve saw that coming from you, everyone.

Anecdotal stories mean nothing when data is available, when posters are asking about my personal emotions then I use them.

You interpret my indifference to religion as some personal affront because I don't believe radical elements of any religion to be ok. How pious of you to judge someone's religious worth because they don't fall in complete agreement with you.

I never insinuated any wrong doing by Christian churches? If I did please show me. Nothing I said about that movie is incorrect, and that fact you continue to bring it up as some personal affront is hilarious. Move on.

How would a shared state be detrimental to Jewish people? Do you think granting basic human rights to a group of people to be taking away from Jewish people?

 

[Irish#1]

How would a shared state be detrimental to Jewish people? Do you think granting basic human rights to a group of people to be taking away from Jewish people?

Even if there was a shared state and the basic human rights were there, if you think there wouldn't be bloodshed, then you're fooling yourself.

 

[Irish#1]

Sickening

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/10/middleeast/israel-kibbutzim-kfar-aza-beeri-urim-hamas-attack-intl/index.html

 

[Blazers46]

Even if there was a shared state and the basic human rights were there, if you think there wouldn't be bloodshed, then you're fooling yourself.

It’s basically why a Jewish state became a thing and why they are fighting so hard to protect it. Integrating into other places typically resulted in bad things happening. There are larger rooted issues at play.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Article is a decent summary of why it took awhile for the military to respond. Separately I read someplace where the Israeli's had moved a substantial part of their military closer to the West Bank for a variety of reasons.

Why did it take Israel so long to deal with Hamas's attack from Gaza?

It took two full days for Israel to clear Hamas fighters from its land - and some are asking why.

www.bbc.com

 

[drayer54]

While our State dept is testing policy on Twitter-

 

[Blazers46]

While our State dept is testing policy on Twitter-

Someone said “hold my beer” to Booker. Walls came down… he got what he wanted in that respect.

 

[Bluto]

You are right, Jews were integrated all over the Middle East. It often didn’t work out well. That’s like saying Indians integrated into society when the Europeans took over. You’re missing a lot of context.

Worked out better than in Europe.

Based on my understanding of world history Europe is waaaaaaaaay problematic prior to 1948 in terms of the treatment of the Jewish populations that existed there when compared to the greater Middle East, Persian and Ottoman empires.

So yeah. Your anecdote is way off.

 

[Blazers46]

Worked out better than in Europe.

Based on my understanding of world history Europe is waaaaaaaaay problematic prior to 1948 in terms of the treatment of the Jewish populations that existed there when compared to the greater Middle East and it the Persian anf Ottoman empires.

So yeah. Your anecdote is way off.

No shit Sherlock. Except Germans at least tried to hide the fact they were killing Jews. In the Middle East they post their slaughter on social media and brag about it. Classic case of pick your poison. Your argument is really “well they are better off in the Middle East than Germany?” For fuck sake, I stand corrected, Jews have it made. What a stupid take.

**As expected Toronto likes your stupid comment. All is well with Jews in the Middle East…fuck sake you guys are dumb.

 

[TorontoGold]

No shit Sherlock. Except Germans at least tried to hide the fact they were killing Jews. In the Middle East they post their slaughter on social media and brag about it. Classic case of pick your poison. Your argument is really “well they are better off in the Middle East than Germany?” For fuck sake, I stand corrected, Jews have it made. What a stupid take.

**As expected Toronto likes your stupid comment. All is well with Jews in the Middle East…fuck sake you guys are dumb.

Rent free lmao.

Right. We're the dumb ones. Not the guy saying "except Germans at least tried to hide the fact they were killing Jews", that kind of statement is not something you'd ever say out loud.

 

[Blazers46]

Rent free lmao.

Right. We're the dumb ones. Not the guy saying "except Germans at least tried to hide the fact they were killing Jews", that kind of statement is not something you'd ever say out loud.

Really not even my words but an actual Jews words, I was echoing and parroting Ben Shapiro. Don’t pretend I’m discounting what the Germans did… to act like they have it better in the Middle East than Europe is so out of touch and stupid. You stamped that stupid statement with your approval. You do you.

 

[Bluto]

No shit Sherlock. Except Germans at least tried to hide the fact they were killing Jews. In the Middle East they post their slaughter on social media and brag about it. Classic case of pick your poison. Your argument is really “well they are better off in the Middle East than Germany?” For fuck sake, I stand corrected, Jews have it made. What a stupid take.

**As expected Toronto likes your stupid comment. All is well with Jews in the Middle East…fuck sake you guys are dumb.

You need to read my post(s) a little more closely. Maybe the wording was a bit clunky so here it is.

I stated pre 1948. That was when the state of Israel was established. That is when Arab Jewish relations really hit the skids in the Middle East.

So yes, up until that point middle eastern Jews (who were/are distinct from European Jews like Ben Gurion) existed relatively peacefully and were integrated into society throughout the Middle East for thousands of years.

From Wikipedia:

“The experience of Jews in the Ottoman Empire is particularly significant because the region "provided a principal place of refuge for Jews driven out of Western Europe by massacres and persecution."

 

[Blazers46]

You need to read my post(s) a little more closely smart guy.

I clearly stated pre 1948. That was when the state of Israel was established. That is when Arab Jewish relations really hit the skids in the Middle East.

Up until that point middle eastern Jews (who were/are distinct from European Jews like Ben Gurion) existed and were integrated into society throughout the Middle East for thousands of years.

So your stance is to undo what’s been done? Like Toronto you want a one state solution and undo what’s been done… do it and see what happens to the Jewish nation in Israel. What is really your point? Pointing fingers at what and then do what? What is your end game? Are you blaming Israel for what happened? Blaming the Jewish state? What is your point?

 

[Blazers46]

Stand with “Palestine”

Right!?

 

[Bluto]

So your stance is to undo what’s been done? Like Toronto you want a one state solution and undo what’s been done… do it and see what happens to the Jewish nation in Israel. What is really your point? Pointing fingers at what and then do what? What is your end game? Are you blaming Israel for what happened? Blaming the Jewish state? What is your point?

I definitely do not support any type of quasi theocratic state based on a quack idea pulled out of thin air by some guy in Hungary in the late 1800’s. When you really look at it the whole idea of Zionism is pretty crazy.

Maybe Europe and the US should agree to pay pretty huge reparations to both the citizens of Israel and Palestine, send in a large multi National peace keeping force, negotiate a peace settlement, allow those who want to relocate do so and then work to establish a multi ethnic state, which has the same financial backing and security guarantees as the current state of Israel?

 

[DillonHall]

Should “we” as in the U.S. or Israel?

We should turn a blind eye while Israel does whatever they want to Gaza (hopefully they destroy it so that they never recover)